Questions for Gentiles Who Practice Jewish Holidays

[eaglei]

It has been on my mind for some time now that I would like to learn more about Judaism. With Christmas upon us and all the related traditions, it has been even more on my mind. So, I have a few questions for those who used to, or still do, incorporate Jewish feast days into their lives. Would you mind supplying this information, and anything else you think is pertinent? I would so appreciate it! THANK YOU!

 

(I guess I feel compelled to say that this is meant as a quest for information, and not as a debate on the rightness or wrongness of any side of the topics of Jewish vs. Christian vs. secular vs. *whatever other* holidays/viewpoints). :001_smile:

 

1. Is there a resource book that you use that tells which holiday, gives the Biblical references/story, the purpose, recipes for any special foods (and acceptable substitutions), practices/activities (e.g., the Festival of Tabernacles where they make an outdoor structure), etc., and is written in *layman's* language?

 

2. How labor-intensive is the preparation for each holiday?

 

3. My understanding is that the Jewish New Year begins in the spring, whereas the Gentile obviously begins in the winter with January. When you started these Jewish practices (the first time), did you begin your first one in spring or in January?

 

4. How does celebrating the Jewish holidays affect your celebration of the Gentile ones (e.g., Christmas, Easter, others)?

 

5. If you are comfortable answering this last question, that would be great! How did (or has) incorporating Jewish holidays into your life/family impacted you?

[eaglei]

Just bumping . . .

 

Anyone?

 

Or, if you'd rather pm, that's fine, too!

 

:001_smile:

[Miss Peregrine]

We don't practice but have considered it in the past.

 

I have Celebrate the Feasts, and Dance, Sing, Remember, and Walk with Y'shua Through the Jewish Year

[EKS]

I grew up in a non-religious household but my husband is Jewish, so I have celebrated various Jewish holidays over the years. When *I* am in charge of making it happen (as opposed to my MIL or SIL), things are not overly traditional.

 

1. Is there a resource book that you use that tells which holiday, gives the Biblical references/story, the purpose, recipes for any special foods (and acceptable substitutions), practices/activities (e.g., the Festival of Tabernacles where they make an outdoor structure), etc., and is written in *layman's* language?

 

There are lots of them. There is one on Amazon (that I haven't read) that is specifically for Christians.

 

2. How labor-intensive is the preparation for each holiday?

 

If you do it right, certain holidays are ridiculously labor intensive to prepare for (I'm thinking of Passover in particular).

 

3. My understanding is that the Jewish New Year begins in the spring, whereas the Gentile obviously begins in the winter with January. When you started these Jewish practices (the first time), did you begin your first one in spring or in January?

 

The Jewish New Year (Rosh Hashanah) begins in the fall.

 

4. How does celebrating the Jewish holidays affect your celebration of the Gentile ones (e.g., Christmas, Easter, others)?

 

We continue to celebrate Christmas (in a secular manner), as it was a family tradition that I couldn't give up. We don't celebrate Easter, except by eating chocolate eggs.

 

5. If you are comfortable answering this last question, that would be great! How did (or has) incorporating Jewish holidays into your life/family impacted you?

 

I'm not sure how to answer this question. For me, it has added a wonderful annual cycle of experience that is a strong connection over generations to ancient times. But without the connection of my husband being Jewish, I would not celebrate Jewish holidays, or the holidays of any other religion for that matter, because it just doesn't seem right to me. (I have decided not to convert to Judaism because my husband is non-religious, and as a convert, in order to *be* Jewish, I would have to *do* Judaism, and I would have less than no support from my husband.)

[Scuff]

1. Is there a resource book that you use that tells which holiday, gives the Biblical references/story, the purpose, recipes for any special foods (and acceptable substitutions), practices/activities (e.g., the Festival of Tabernacles where they make an outdoor structure), etc., and is written in *layman's* language?

 

Biblical Holidays is a good place to start. There's another good one, too. But I can't think of the name off the top of my head.

 

2. How labor-intensive is the preparation for each holiday?

 

As much as you want it to be, just like any other holiday. My biggest struggle comes from the fact that all my info is coming from books and we're alone in this. There's a bit of a learning curve that you don't have celebrating the holidays you grew up with. I'd suggest starting small.

 

3. My understanding is that the Jewish New Year begins in the spring, whereas the Gentile obviously begins in the winter with January. When you started these Jewish practices (the first time), did you begin your first one in spring or in January?

 

You probaly could start whenever you want. We were also convicted to drop the other holidays because of theit pagan roots. So we started with Chanukah.

 

4. How does celebrating the Jewish holidays affect your celebration of the Gentile ones (e.g., Christmas, Easter, others)? See #3 ETA- we do still visit family on Christmas, but we don't celebrate it ourselves.

 

5. If you are comfortable answering this last question, that would be great! How did (or has) incorporating Jewish holidays into your life/family impacted you?

 

There's a lot of spiritual meaning and depth in the holidays that we miss as gentile christians basically ignorant of that part of the Bible.

 

One unexpected way it's impacted me is to bring me out of my shell. I don't like to be in the spotlight. But having children while doing something far from normaldefinately drags you into it. :D

 

Changing this aspect of our life has been completely life changing. In mostly good, some negative, ways. It's been an adjustment, for sure. I'm glad we made this change. For us it was a matter of obedience. And it's always best to be obedient.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Scuff

[Spy Car]

The only holiday we celebrate in our home is Chanukah. Not being Jewish, but living in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, we do this holiday partially as a sign of good-will towards our neighbors (who can see the candles burning in the window) and in part because it adds another texture to our holidays.

 

I feel comfortable in this in large part because Chanukah is a very minor religious holiday and has more "cultural" importance In our society than sacred significance.

 

In contrast *I* would never tread on the High Holy Days in a similar manner, because these are important religious holidays. Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year usually falls in September (from 5 September to 5 October in the Western Calendar) not in Spring. And is followed By Yom Kippur ( the Day of Atonement).

 

Now this year we were invited to join Orthodox friends on Rosh Hashana (where we did our best to blow shofars) and to a completely un-Orthodox party on Yom Kippur, but (while I was happy to be with friends) I would not feel comfortable "observing" these holidays in a "secular" fashion (beyond listing to Koh Nidre on the eve of Yom Kippur or reading Gershon's Monster, and things of that sort).

 

We also were invited to Sukkot (Tabernacles) this year, and to Seder, and went to the Purim carnival, and often share Shabbos with friends. So we typically "participate" in the many of festivals of the Jewish year.

 

Still, I feel one needs to be sensitive on how one "shares" in these holidays. It is one thing to be invited to celebrate Jewish customs and holidays with Jews in the Jewish fashion, and another thing entirely to re-cast these holidays into an expression of another religion. This latter practice (which happens) causes grave offense in the Jewish community. So one has to be careful about the context if one hopes to have their participation in the festivals of the year well received by the Jewish community (which it can be) rather than being a source of upset (which can also be the case).

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

Bill

[eaglei]

Thank you, everyone! I am going to read the reviews on Amazon for the books that you recommended. I appreciate your help and your insights very much. I'm sure I will have to start small, but the first step is to get good information and to prepare. You have helped me in that endeavor! :)

[Spy Car]

 

Biblical Holidays is a good place to start.

 

 

This sort of resource, which re-casts Jewish holidays into "Christian" holidays by re-interpreting the meaning of Jewish traditions, is exactly the type of thing that causes very grave offense to those who practice Judaism.

 

Such practices lead to enmity and are best avoided if you hope your "celebrations" are welcomed Jews.

 

Bill

[eaglei]

The only holiday we celebrate in our home is Chanukah. Not being Jewish, but living in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, we do this holiday partially as a sign of good-will towards our neighbors (who can see the candles burning in the window) and in part because it adds another texture to our holidays.

 

I feel comfortable in this in large part because Chanukah is a very minor religious holiday and has more "cultural" importance In our society than sacred significance.

 

In contrast *I* would never tread on the High Holy Days in a similar manner, because these are important religious holidays. Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year usually falls in September (from 5 September to 5 October in the Western Calendar) not in Spring. And is followed By Yom Kippur ( the Day of Atonement).

 

Now this year we were invited to join Orthodox friends on Rosh Hashana (where we did our best to blow shofars) and to a completely un-Orthodox party on Yom Kippur, but (while I was happy to be with friends) I would not feel comfortable "observing" these holidays in a "secular" fashion (beyond listing to Koh Nidre on the eve of Yom Kippur or reading Gershon's Monster, and things of that sort).

 

We also were invited to Sukkot (Tabernacles) this year, and to Seder, and went to the Purim carnival, and often share Shabbos with friends. So we typically "participate" in the many of festivals of the Jewish year.

 

Still, I feel one needs to be sensitive on how one "shares" in these holidays. It is one thing to be invited to celebrate Jewish customs and holidays with Jews in the Jewish fashion, and another thing entirely to re-cast these holidays into an expression of another religion. This latter practice (which happens) causes grave offense in the Jewish community. So one has to be careful about the context if one hopes to have their participation in the festivals of the year well received by the Jewish community (which it can be) rather than being a source of upset (which can also be the case).

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

Bill

 

Yes, this makes sense.

 

What a wonderful opportunity you have had to participate in these holidays!

 

I had not thought of the caution expressed in your last paragraph. It is well-stated, and humbly received.

 

I would hope that a personal study of these feasts, and a quiet attempt at practicing them in one's own home, would be acceptable and not a source of upset. Part of the purpose is definitely not to trod upon Jewish customs, but rather to understand my own Christian roots better.

[Miss Peregrine]

This sort of resource, which re-casts Jewish holidays into "Christian" holidays by re-interpreting the meaning of Jewish traditions, is exactly the type of thing that causes very grave offense to those who practice Judaism.

 

Such practices lead to enmity and are best avoided if you hope your "celebrations" are welcomed Jews.

 

Bill

 

I believe Celebrate the Feasts does the same thing. We ultimately decided against celebrating for this very reason.

[eaglei]

This sort of resource, which re-casts Jewish holidays into "Christian" holidays by re-interpreting the meaning of Jewish traditions, is exactly the type of thing that causes very grave offense to those who practice Judaism.

 

Such practices lead to enmity and are best avoided if you hope your "celebrations" are welcomed Jews.

 

Bill

 

Is there a recommended resource that does not do this?

[Karenciavo]

Is there a recommended resource that does not do this?

 

Walk with Y'shua through the Year is written by Jews who believe Y'shua is the Messiah. Although it mentions Jesus it does not recast the celebrations into Christian holidays. A typical chapter includes information on the holiday, scripture relating to the meaning of the holiday (Old and New Testament) and then information on the Jewish tradition called Our Traditions with no Christian info at all. It is an excellent resource.

[Spy Car]

Walk with Y'shua through the Year is written by Jews who believe Y'shua is the Messiah. Although it mentions Jesus it does not recast the celebrations into Christian holidays. A typical chapter includes information on the holiday, scripture relating to the meaning of the holiday (Old and New Testament) and then information on the Jewish tradition called Our Traditions with no Christian info at all. It is an excellent resource.

 

It is contemptually dishonest to present a "Jews of Jesus" tract as a guide to the Jewish tradition Karen. This is exactly the type of thing that leads to very bitter feelings.

 

Bill

Edited December 5, 2010 by Spy Car

[Violet Crown]

The only holiday we celebrate in our home is Chanukah. Not being Jewish, but living in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, we do this holiday partially as a sign of good-will towards our neighbors (who can see the candles burning in the window) and in part because it adds another texture to our holidays.

 

I feel comfortable in this in large part because Chanukah is a very minor religious holiday and has more "cultural" importance In our society than sacred significance.

 

In contrast *I* would never tread on the High Holy Days in a similar manner, because these are important religious holidays. Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year usually falls in September (from 5 September to 5 October in the Western Calendar) not in Spring. And is followed By Yom Kippur ( the Day of Atonement).

 

Now this year we were invited to join Orthodox friends on Rosh Hashana (where we did our best to blow shofars) and to a completely un-Orthodox party on Yom Kippur, but (while I was happy to be with friends) I would not feel comfortable "observing" these holidays in a "secular" fashion (beyond listing to Koh Nidre on the eve of Yom Kippur or reading Gershon's Monster, and things of that sort).

 

We also were invited to Sukkot (Tabernacles) this year, and to Seder, and went to the Purim carnival, and often share Shabbos with friends. So we typically "participate" in the many of festivals of the Jewish year.

 

Still, I feel one needs to be sensitive on how one "shares" in these holidays. It is one thing to be invited to celebrate Jewish customs and holidays with Jews in the Jewish fashion, and another thing entirely to re-cast these holidays into an expression of another religion. This latter practice (which happens) causes grave offense in the Jewish community. So one has to be careful about the context if one hopes to have their participation in the festivals of the year well received by the Jewish community (which it can be) rather than being a source of upset (which can also be the case).

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

Bill

:iagree: Actually I have gotten the strong impression that being traditionalist-leaning Catholics has made our family more welcome, as we're comfortable enough in our own observances to then be comfortable with the observances of our friends. And our Orthodox friends are more understanding about our fasting and abstinence rules than some other Catholics I can think of.

 

(The sense of "comfortable" extends only figuratively to sitting in a Sukkot in 90+ degree weather, slapping mosquitoes.)

[Spy Car]

Is there a recommended resource that does not do this?

 

If you want to go deep the 3 volume set by the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) called "Celebrating the Jewish Year" is really marvelous. I'm sure there are many shorter works from a Jewish perspective, but this one is terrific.

 

There are also many Jewish web-sites online that have Information on the Jewish holidays if you want a quick overview including Judaism 101. Cultural practices do range among different Jewsih groups (as they do among Christians) but a Jewish source for Jewish holidays is your best bet.

 

Bill

[eaglei]

Thank You!

[Rivka]

If you have Jewish friends who are willing to share their holidays with you, that would be the best way to gain a deeper understanding of Jewish traditions. If you don't have personal connections with the Jewish community, you might want to give some more thought to why you want to do this.

 

I think it can be hard for Christians to understand the differences between Christianity and Judaism. Judaism is not an evangelical religion. They discourage conversion - it's not their goal for more people to be Jewish or to practice Jewish traditions. There is instead a belief that the requirements and practices of their religion are just for Jews. Unless you are invited into a Jewish home to share their holidays, most Jewish people would think you should not celebrate them.

[Ester Maria]

I hope this makes sense.

 

Bill

You sound like a lovely and respectful neighbor. No wonder you're so well-accepted. :)

[Karenciavo]

It is contemptually dishonest to present a "Jews of Jesus" tract as a guide to the Jewish tradition Karen. This is exactly the type of thing that leads to very bitter feelings.

 

Bill

 

It is not a Jews for Jesus "tract" Bill. We all know your thoughts on Messianic Jews.

 

Karen, who happens to live in a large Jewish community myself (feel free to Goggle Cherry Hill, NJ) with many Orthodox, Reformed, and Messianic friends.

[Susan in KY]

I'll answer #5 to say that I think it enriches our understanding of God and who he is and how he loves his people. I really enjoy celebrating the holy days, but they are a lot of preparation in terms of food.

 

If you want to start, though, I recommend you start in with Purim. It's great fun. Our family does a play and makes hamentaschen every year. Yum! :)

 

Here's a recipe (I've tried a bunch, and this is the best!):

Hamentaschen (Hamen's Pockets)

 

Bake at 350F for 15 minutes. Makes about 2 dozen. Recipe can be doubled.

 

The Dough

 

• 3/4 cup of sugar

• 3/4 cup butter or margarine, softened

• 1 egg

• 1 tsp. grated lemon or orange zest

• 1 tsp. vanilla

• 2 1/4 cups of flour

• 1/4 tsp. salt

• few drops water or lemon juice (no more than 1 tsp or so)

• egg white wash and granulated sugar, or powdered sugar for sprinkling, if desired

• cherry pie filling or some other filling (see below—we love Comstock almond filling!)

 

• Cream butter or margarine, add sugar and beat 'til fluffy

• Beat in egg, lemon peel and vanilla.

• Add in flour and salt.

• Beat in water, a few drops at a time, until dough starts to come away from the sides.

• Lightly dust dough with flour and place in a zipped bag in the fridge for 2-3 hours.

• Roll out to 1/8 inch thickness, cut out circles, and place 2 cherries and filling on the circle

• shape into triangles by folding up 3 edges and pinching the corners.

• Before baking, you can brush each cookie with an egg white wash to make the cookie shine and dust with granulated sugar; or cook it as-is, using powdered sugar to finish it off after baking. (I never do either of these, but Hamentaschen are traditionally shiny!)

 

The Filling

 

This recipe uses cherry pie filling, but you can use prune, apricot, almond, or other fruit pastry fillings which can be store-bought. We also use our favorite jam or nuts with cinnamon-sugar.

[eaglei]

I'll answer #5 to say that I think it enriches our understanding of God and who he is and how he loves his people. I really enjoy celebrating the holy days, but they are a lot of preparation in terms of food.

 

If you want to start, though, I recommend you start in with Purim. It's great fun. Our family does a play and makes hamentaschen every year. Yum! :)

 

Here's a recipe (I've tried a bunch, and this is the best!):

Hamentaschen (Hamen's Pockets)

 

Bake at 350F for 15 minutes. Makes about 2 dozen. Recipe can be doubled.

 

The Dough

 

• 3/4 cup of sugar

• 3/4 cup butter or margarine, softened

• 1 egg

• 1 tsp. grated lemon or orange zest

• 1 tsp. vanilla

• 2 1/4 cups of flour

• 1/4 tsp. salt

• few drops water or lemon juice (no more than 1 tsp or so)

• egg white wash and granulated sugar, or powdered sugar for sprinkling, if desired

• cherry pie filling or some other filling (see below—we love Comstock almond filling!)

 

• Cream butter or margarine, add sugar and beat 'til fluffy

• Beat in egg, lemon peel and vanilla.

• Add in flour and salt.

• Beat in water, a few drops at a time, until dough starts to come away from the sides.

• Lightly dust dough with flour and place in a zipped bag in the fridge for 2-3 hours.

• Roll out to 1/8 inch thickness, cut out circles, and place 2 cherries and filling on the circle

• shape into triangles by folding up 3 edges and pinching the corners.

• Before baking, you can brush each cookie with an egg white wash to make the cookie shine and dust with granulated sugar; or cook it as-is, using powdered sugar to finish it off after baking. (I never do either of these, but Hamentaschen are traditionally shiny!)

 

The Filling

 

This recipe uses cherry pie filling, but you can use prune, apricot, almond, or other fruit pastry fillings which can be store-bought. We also use our favorite jam or nuts with cinnamon-sugar.

 

Thank you for posting this recipe.

 

Is celebrating some of the Jewish feasts something your family regularly does?

 

If you would rather pm any suggestions, ideas, comments, etc., that would be fine, too!

 

I will be checking back later in the day for more responses to this thread and any pm's. Some very good things to think about have been posted, as well as good suggestions - I appreciate them all!

[Spy Car]

It is not a Jews for Jesus "tract" Bill.

 

This is simply not so Karen. This book is an imprint of Purple Pomegranate Productions, which is a subsidiary of "Jews for Jesus."

 

Bill

[Jen in PA]

I am Jewish and often recommend this book both to non-Jews and to Jews raised (as I was) without much of a religious education. It gives a lot of very basic information on the history and current observance of the holidays and I think it's well organized. My copy is actually the one I had as a required textbook for a course I took in college, and I have gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

[unsinkable]

If you have Jewish friends who are willing to share their holidays with you, that would be the best way to gain a deeper understanding of Jewish traditions. If you don't have personal connections with the Jewish community, you might want to give some more thought to why you want to do this.

 

I think it can be hard for Christians to understand the differences between Christianity and Judaism. Judaism is not an evangelical religion. They discourage conversion - it's not their goal for more people to be Jewish or to practice Jewish traditions. There is instead a belief that the requirements and practices of their religion are just for Jews. Unless you are invited into a Jewish home to share their holidays, most Jewish people would think you should not celebrate them.

 

I don't have personal connections with many things I'd like to learn about.

 

Can you elaborate on the sentence I bolded...it reads as if you're trying to say something without saying it. I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying.

[eaglei]

I am Jewish and often recommend this book both to non-Jews and to Jews raised (as I was) without much of a religious education. It gives a lot of very basic information on the history and current observance of the holidays and I think it's well organized. My copy is actually the one I had as a required textbook for a course I took in college, and I have gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

 

I just checked this link and realized it is the same book dh has sitting on his shelves!

[JennyD]

I am Jewish and often recommend this book both to non-Jews and to Jews raised (as I was) without much of a religious education. It gives a lot of very basic information on the history and current observance of the holidays and I think it's well organized. My copy is actually the one I had as a required textbook for a course I took in college, and I have gotten a lot of mileage out of it.

 

I just recommended the same book on another thread here the other day. It's an excellent resource.

[milovany]

I PM'd eaglei as well, but wanted to mention here that anyone who has hungered for the historical roots to the Christian faith might want to look at the eastern Orthodox church. Our family read the book Our Father Abraham about three years ago, and were beginning to think about maybe attending a Messianic congregation. But for reasons that are personal, we did not. Somewhere in there a homeschooling friend suggested we learn about the Orthodox Christian church because of the way it developed out of those very same Jewish roots (yet was a Christian church with Christ and the Church as the foundation). It's been an amazing journey of faith, and we were baptized as Orthodox converts almost a year ago. Every day we give thanks for this deep, rich, beautiful faith that God offers as a gift.

 

Just a thought!

[eaglei]

Christians will *see* Jesus throughout the Jewish feasts, and there is nothing wrong with *using* those feasts to enrich their own spiritual journeys.

 

Well said! This speaks to what I want - to *see* Jesus through the Jewish feasts that He established, and growing/developing/enriching my own spiritual journey through observing (at least some) of those feasts.

 

Thanks for the encouragement! Glad you left your observation post to present your insights! :)

[JennyD]

I don't often post anymore, but I wanted to jump in and support Karen.

 

Jewish people feel that their traditions and practices are for themselves alone, and they get annoyed when others (Christians) *take* them and give them new meanings or explanations. That's understandable. Christianity, Mormonism, Buddhism, and Baha'i (to name a few) all grew out of other religions, and took beliefs and practices and infused them with new meanings and explanations. People have been doing this since, well, for a very long time.

 

Jesus, Himself, recast two of the traditional elements used in the Jewish Passover meal: the wine and the bread. He gave them new meaning and significance for his followers to remember: they were henceforth to represent His body and blood, shed for their sins. I can be very certain that His doing so *offended* the Jews who didn't believe in Him.

 

Christians will *see* Jesus throughout the Jewish feasts, and there is nothing wrong with *using* those feasts to enrich their own spiritual journeys.

 

That's my two cents. Now I'll return to my observation post.

 

This makes sense. I have to say that -- as a Jewish person -- I find it a little baffling that Christians find meaning in contemporary Jewish practices, and there's something of an Alice-in-Wonderland aspect to seeing your own traditions and teachings interpreted through a wildly different lens, but you make a valuable point that appropriation and reinterpretation of others' rituals -- regardless of how much it bothers the appropriatees -- is the history of religion.

 

Just out of curiosity -- and I absolutely mean this as an honest question, not a snippy one at all -- what is the Christian take on their own practices being reinterpreted by others? For example, what if Jews started celebrating Communion as how it relates to biblical-era Shabbat rites, taking Jesus out of it entirely? Or if Muslims reinterpreted the Eucharist as being about Mohammad and incorporated that into their own religious practices? Would this kind of thing be perceived as a problem, or does the evangelical aspect of Christianity perhaps contribute to a more relaxed attitude?

Edited December 6, 2010 by JennyD

[i.love.lucy]

This makes sense. I have to say that -- as a Jewish person -- I find it a little baffling that Christians find meaning in contemporary Jewish practices, and there's something of an Alice-in-Wonderland aspect to seeing your own traditions and teachings interpreted through a wildly different lens, but you make a valuable point that appropriation and reinterpretation of others' rituals -- regardless of how much it bothers the appropriatees -- is the history of religion.

 

Just out of curiosity -- and I absolutely mean this as an honest question, not a snippy one at all -- what is the Christian take on their own practices being reinterpreted by others? For example, what if Jews started celebrating Communion as how it relates to biblical-era Shabbat rites, taking Jesus out of it entirely? Or if Muslims reinterpreted the Eucharist as being about Mohammad and incorporated that into their own religious practices? Would this kind of thing be perceived as a problem, or does the evangelical aspect of Christianity perhaps contribute to a more 'the more the merrier' kind of attitude?

ITA with paragraph 1. It seems strange to me too.

 

I guess I'd say *shrug* to paragraph 2. Jesus appropriated the symbolic wine and bread specifically because He was a Jew. Those were meaningful symbols Him and to the people around Him at the time. If a Muslim (for example) wants to do some kind of communion type activity I would probably think it's quite strange since it has no meaning for them. But I wouldn't be offended as long as they didn't try to tell me I couldn't celebrate it the way scripture tells me to, or that I'm doing wrong.

 

:bigear: This has been an interesting discussion to come up right now. I have a few friends IRL that are solidly Christian who are exploring Jewish feasts and rituals. I don't get it. So this has been good for me to hear some perspectives on this.

Edited December 6, 2010 by i.love.lucy

[freethinkermama]

Just out of curiosity -- and I absolutely mean this as an honest question, not a snippy one at all -- what is the Christian take on their own practices being reinterpreted by others? For example, what if Jews started celebrating Communion as how it relates to biblical-era Shabbat rites, taking Jesus out of it entirely? Or if Muslims reinterpreted the Eucharist as being about Mohammad and incorporated that into their own religious practices? Would this kind of thing be perceived as a problem, or does the evangelical aspect of Christianity perhaps contribute to a more 'the more the merrier' kind of attitude?

 

This is _such_ a good point. It was what I came to when I was Christian and considering participating in Christianized Jewish customs--the "seder" at church etc.

 

No matter how much I could draw out from Jewish traditions that I could connect to Jesus, I knew it was still not the same, and I felt like I was treading on someone else's connection to God. One God had given to other people.

 

Of couse, I don't believe in any of it anymore, but respect is still important to me.

 

Yes, I think that if Muslims took Christian sacraments and reinterpreted them from their original intent, it would be nasty. (I understand the most Christians don't see this as a reinterpretation--and that's the whole point. But. . .honestly, yuck. Cultural appropriation, to me. It would be like Muslims saying, "Christians only understood the eucharist in this limited way, but we have the final prophet and we understand it aright now, so we take it too.")

 

Sorry, Muslims, don't mean to drag you into this, but sometimes it's helpful to create other examples.

 

Others won't agree, of course.

[EKS]

Jewish people feel that their traditions and practices are for themselves alone, and they get annoyed when others (Christians) *take* them and give them new meanings or explanations. That's understandable. Christianity, Mormonism, Buddhism, and Baha'i (to name a few) all grew out of other religions, and took beliefs and practices and infused them with new meanings and explanations. People have been doing this since, well, for a very long time.

 

 

 

Perhaps the reasons lean more toward the fact that Christians hatefully and systematically persecuted Jews for CENTURIES.

[Rivka]

If you have Jewish friends who are willing to share their holidays with you, that would be the best way to gain a deeper understanding of Jewish traditions. If you don't have personal connections with the Jewish community, you might want to give some more thought to why you want to do this.

 

I think it can be hard for Christians to understand the differences between Christianity and Judaism. Judaism is not an evangelical religion. They discourage conversion - it's not their goal for more people to be Jewish or to practice Jewish traditions. There is instead a belief that the requirements and practices of their religion are just for Jews. Unless you are invited into a Jewish home to share their holidays, most Jewish people would think you should not celebrate them.

 

I don't have personal connections with many things I'd like to learn about.

 

Learning about Jewish holidays and practices is an excellent thing. But this thread isn't about *learning about* Jewish holidays - it's about adopting them and celebrating them on your own. Which is not at all the same thing.

 

If I wanted to teach my children about Catholicism, we would read books and look at websites together. We might read novels about Catholic family life. We might ask Catholic friends if we could go to mass with them or talk with them about their faith. But I wouldn't dress up as a priest and "serve Communion" to my kids so that they could experience what it's like, because I think that would be inappropriate.

 

Can you elaborate on the sentence I bolded...it reads as if you're trying to say something without saying it. I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying.

 

Well, if I wanted to know more about a particular Jewish holiday, I would ask one of my dozen or so Jewish friends. (That's how I've come to participate in celebrations of the Sabbath, Hanukkah, Passover, and Sukkot.) I wouldn't come and ask Christians on a message board to explain it.

 

I don't know. I find it odd to see people express a feeling of deep connection to Judaism, to the extent of wanting to adopt Jewish rituals, when they don't seem to be connected to any Jewish people or institutions. It makes me wonder if what they really want to connect to is a particular set of Christian origin stories, or particular ideas about the relations between Christianity and Judaism, rather than a specific living religion which has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

I especially find it odd when people express a feeling of deep connection to Judaism, but also are unconcerned with the idea that what they want to do might be seen as improper or even offensive to Jewish people. I'm not saying the OP feels that way, but that point of view has been expressed in this thread.

 

Very similar issues arise with some Pagans/New Age practitioners and Native American religious traditions, by the way. People with no connections to a Native American community think some of their religious practices are cool and want to adopt them, often without much consideration of whether doing so is desired by, or respectful of, people whom they believe they are honoring.

 

I am not the religious police, however, by any means, and I have tried in this thread to say "people might feel X way about you doing this" rather than "don't do this."

Edited December 6, 2010 by Rivka

[Smithie]

I really struggle with this issue. On the one hand, it makes total sense to me that Christians identify with the ancient Israelites - they regard themselves and the spiritual heirs of the ancient Israelites. I'm not offended by that at all. Nobody holding a seder in their home and recounting the Exodus is hurting the modern-day Jewish people. It's a shared story.

 

However, when I see the liturgies published by the Jews for Jesus that take my prayers and rituals and toss in messianic references, I can't help but be very offended by that. It really is just like a person unrolling a prayer rug, facing Mecca, and busting out a Communion wafer and a glass of grape juice. It's tacky. I hate it.

 

BTW, I disagree with Rivka's assessment that Judaism discourages conversion. It's more than we don't have a NEED to convert. We believe that all of the righteous have a share in the world to come, but if somebody comes along wanting to enter into the covenant God made with Abraham, it's a very tiny minority of modern Jewish congregations that don't roll out the welcome mat for them. So anybody who might be reading this thread thinking of exploring conversion - you can do it. It's just that nobody but your future mother-in-law is going to try to pressure you into it. :)

[OrganicAnn]

We collect a few children's books that explain various Jewish holidays. But we don't celebrate them. I have one Aunt/Uncle and cousins who are Jewish and so I like for our family to understand what the holidays mean without recreating them.

[freethinkermama]

Perhaps the reasons lean more toward the fact that Christians hatefully and systematically persecuted Jews for CENTURIES.

 

:iagree:

[mommaduck]

 

3. My understanding is that the Jewish New Year begins in the spring, whereas the Gentile obviously begins in the winter with January. When you started these Jewish practices (the first time), did you begin your first one in spring or in January?

 

 

One is a religious new year, the other is a cultural/political new year. You can't really compare the two. I'm Eastern Orthodox and our new year is in September.

[kewb]

*

[unsinkable]

Learning about Jewish holidays and practices is an excellent thing. But this thread isn't about *learning about* Jewish holidays - it's about adopting them and celebrating them on your own. Which is not at all the same thing.

 

If I wanted to teach my children about Catholicism, we would read books and look at websites together. We might read novels about Catholic family life. We might ask Catholic friends if we could go to mass with them or talk with them about their faith. But I wouldn't dress up as a priest and "serve Communion" to my kids so that they could experience what it's like, because I think that would be inappropriate.

 

 

 

Well, if I wanted to know more about a particular Jewish holiday, I would ask one of my dozen or so Jewish friends. (That's how I've come to participate in celebrations of the Sabbath, Hanukkah, Passover, and Sukkot.) I wouldn't come and ask Christians on a message board to explain it.

 

I don't know. I find it odd to see people express a feeling of deep connection to Judaism, to the extent of wanting to adopt Jewish rituals, when they don't seem to be connected to any Jewish people or institutions. It makes me wonder if what they really want to connect to is a particular set of Christian origin stories, or particular ideas about the relations between Christianity and Judaism, rather than a specific living religion which has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

I especially find it odd when people express a feeling of deep connection to Judaism, but also are unconcerned with the idea that what they want to do might be seen as improper or even offensive to Jewish people. I'm not saying the OP feels that way, but that point of view has been expressed in this thread.

 

Very similar issues arise with some Pagans/New Age practitioners and Native American religious traditions, by the way. People with no connections to a Native American community think some of their religious practices are cool and want to adopt them, often without much consideration of whether doing so is desired by, or respectful of, people whom they believe they are honoring.

 

I am not the religious police, however, by any means, and I have tried in this thread to say "people might feel X way about you doing this" rather than "don't do this."

 

I am glad I asked you for more info! I think I understand a bit better.

[Laurie4b]

I think there is a difference between asking Gentiles about practicing Jewish holidays versus asking Christians how they incorporate Levitical feasts into their lives. I'll think there is firm support for the latter within the Christian scriptures.

 

First, Christians regard the books of Moses, where these feasts are given, as their Scripture too. Second, the New Testament explicitly interprets a number of the feasts and their application to Christians. So to condemn Christians for celebrating them amounts to telling Christians that they do not have freedom to explore and practice their own religion. That is different from telling someone they shouldn't disrespectfully partake of traditions of others' religion. (There is more than one religion that has roots in others.)

 

Here are some specific quotations from the New Testament:

 

Rom. 11 speaks of the relationship between Jews who were followers of Jesus and Gentiles who were followers of Jesus as being one in which the branches of a "wild olive tree" (the Gentiles) were grafted into a cultivated olive tree (the Jews) " You, though a wild olive shoot have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root. do not boast... You do not support the root, but the root supports you." Gentile Christians are told in their own Scriptures that their root is in Israel., and that they are beholding to Israel. There are many other New Testament verses which affirm that the same writings that practioners of Judaism regard as Scripture are meant as Scripture for Christians, too.

 

What churches celebrate as Communion or the Eucharist comes directly from the Passover meal. Jesus himself reinterpreted it . Following is from Luke 22

 

7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”

9 “Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked.

 

10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 12 He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.”

 

13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

 

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

 

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

 

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

 

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.

 

The following is from one of the New Testament epistles:

 

.....Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I Cor 5: 6-8

 

Not all Christians choose to do explore this aspect of their faith of course, just as not all choose to practice fasting and not all practice the Sabbath in the same way; however there is certainly Scriptural justification for exploring this aspect of your faith through the lens of your own Scripture in the New Testament. I included these specific Scriptures because perhaps some of those condemning the practice might not realize that Christian celebration of the feasts in some way is not one religion disrespectfully making up their own version of another religion's faith practices, but rather exploring the meanings of a number of their own Scriptures.

 

There are similar Scriptures for others of the feasts.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Laurie4b

[JennyD]

I completely get why Christians would want to explore biblical-era Judaism as their roots. But why the interest in contemporary Judaism? Obviously contemporary Judaism also has its roots in biblical Judaism, but there's been a lot of water under the bridge over the last 2000 years.

 

And I'm not condemning anyone.

[Ester Maria]

I find it a little baffling that Christians find meaning in contemporary Jewish practices, and there's something of an Alice-in-Wonderland aspect to seeing your own traditions and teachings interpreted through a wildly different lens

Leibowitz compared it to Hamlet once:

מה הקשר בין יהדות לבין נצרות? כמו הקשר שבין המלט לבין תרבות דנמרק, כלומר, אין קשר כלל.

I'm quoting off memory so it might not be verbatim, but you get the point. And to neglect THAT element - what Judaism claims that Judaism is, as opposed to what Christianity claims that Judaism is - is what makes people roll their eyes about seders in churches and stuff along those lines.

 

I'm not taking away the right of Christianity to interpret Judaism and take a position with regards to it. But the key conflict is not in a simple reinterpretation of the meaning in the new context - the key conflict is in Christianity's pretensions on being Judaism. And that's what gets people worked up, especially when you add some fine ironies of history into the already boiling mix. In other words, as Rivka put it:

Learning about Jewish holidays and practices is an excellent thing. But this thread isn't about *learning about* Jewish holidays - it's about adopting them and celebrating them on your own. Which is not at all the same thing.

Learning, and establishing a theological relationship, putting the Jewish roots of Christianity into the Christian discourse, is a completely different thing from what we're talking about here.

 

But, Christianity is not Judaism.

Judaism is, let's put it that way, a certain "matrix". Christianity may relate to or take from certain parts of it, but it doesn't inherit the complexity of the matrix, its totality, as it considers such matrix flawed in the very beginning as a matrix, although Jesus maintains a very ambiguous relationship with it (cancellation of some things paired with claims that nothing in Torah will be changed, etc.). The modern whims of relating to Judaism as a matrix rather than only to Jewish roots of Christianity and to that "shared field" are actually quite a self-irony in my eyes.

BTW, I disagree with Rivka's assessment that Judaism discourages conversion. It's more than we don't have a NEED to convert. We believe that all of the righteous have a share in the world to come, but if somebody comes along wanting to enter into the covenant God made with Abraham, it's a very tiny minority of modern Jewish congregations that don't roll out the welcome mat for them.

I agree with your feelings about the travesty called "Jews for Jesus".

 

However, I do have to back up the opposite view here when it comes to conversions, since you brought it up. Judaism - the institution of rabbinical Judaism at least, even if it's not clearly de oraita - does disourage conversion, and very actively so. It's not only that Judaism is not a religion with pretensions of universalism, it's also that it's a binary system which literally believes that there are two mutually independent possible ways of "good being" with regards to people, the Jewish and the non-Jewish way. Somebody who wishes to become Jewish can take it upon himself, ultimately, but it's not a short process and it's not done just because somebody likes Jews and feels attraction to Judaism - it should be done if and only if a candidate feels that he cannot not be a Jew any more, i.e. that it's the ONLY way for him to peacefully exist with regards to God and religion. Jewishness is not a matter of choice, ultimately, even if such people are called "Jews by choice" in North America - the premise is that Jewishness is not chosen, and even if it's chosen, it has already existed in the convert before he converted.

 

I know it might sound totally weird to some Christians on these boards, accustomed to think of religion in terms of active choice and so forth, but Judaism just doesn't work that way - its mindset is MILES away from the mindset of Christianity. Hamlet and Denmark, truly.

[Laurie4b]

I completely get why Christians would want to explore biblical-era Judaism as their roots. But why the interest in contemporary Judaism? Obviously contemporary Judaism also has its roots in biblical Judaism, but there's been a lot of water under the bridge over the last 2000 years.

 

And I'm not condemning anyone.

 

Not sure if you're asking me or not. Just that the OP referred to the biblical feasts, which are in the Christian Scriptures. I didn't see any reference to contemporary Judaism (except to the extent that they also celebrate the feasts) but maybe I missed that. :confused:

[freethinkermama]

I know it might sound totally weird to some Christians on these boards, accustomed to think of religion in terms of active choice and so forth, but Judaism just doesn't work that way - its mindset is MILES away from the mindset of Christianity. Hamlet and Denmark, truly.

 

Thank you for explaining that so clearly, Ester Maria. Beautifully done.

 

T.

[Spy Car]

Not sure if you're asking me or not. Just that the OP referred to the biblical feasts, which are in the Christian Scriptures. I didn't see any reference to contemporary Judaism (except to the extent that they also celebrate the feasts) but maybe I missed that. :confused:

 

The OP said: " I would like to learn more about Judaism."

 

Nothing wrong with that. It is quite understandable aim. But books by "Jews for Jesus" make a mockery of the idea that one learns about authentic "Judaism" when they totally reinvent and reinterpret the Jewish tradition by adding new "meanings" (and ones antithetical to Judaism) and attempt to turn Jewish holidays into ersatz Christian holidays while having the chutzpah call them Judaism.

 

In my experience Jews find this sort of thing quite hateful. When shown such lack of respect, it is hard to blame them.

 

Bill

[i.love.lucy]

I think there is a difference between asking Gentiles about practicing Jewish holidays versus asking Christians how they incorporate Levitical feasts into their lives. I'll think there is firm support for the latter within the Christian scriptures.

 

First, Christians regard the books of Moses, where these feasts are given, as their Scripture too. Second, the New Testament explicitly interprets a number of the feasts and their application to Christians. So to condemn Christians for celebrating them amounts to telling Christians that they do not have freedom to explore and practice their own religion. That is different from telling someone they shouldn't disrespectfully partake of traditions of others' religion. (There is more than one religion that has roots in others.)

 

Here are some specific quotations from the New Testament:

 

Rom. 11 speaks of the relationship between Jews who were followers of Jesus and Gentiles who were followers of Jesus as being one in which the branches of a "wild olive tree" (the Gentiles) were grafted into a cultivated olive tree (the Jews) " You, though a wild olive shoot have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root. do not boast... You do not support the root, but the root supports you." Gentile Christians are told in their own Scriptures that their root is in Israel., and that they are beholding to Israel. There are many other New Testament verses which affirm that the same writings that practioners of Judaism regard as Scripture are meant as Scripture for Christians, too.

 

What churches celebrate as Communion or the Eucharist comes directly from the Passover meal. Jesus himself reinterpreted it . Following is from Luke 22

 

7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.â€

9 “Where do you want us to prepare for it?†they asked.

 

10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 12 He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.â€

 

13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

 

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.â€

 

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.â€

 

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.â€

 

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a] 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.

 

The following is from one of the New Testament epistles:

 

.....Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I Cor 5: 6-8

 

Not all Christians choose to do explore this aspect of their faith of course, just as not all choose to practice fasting and not all practice the Sabbath in the same way; however there is certainly Scriptural justification for exploring this aspect of your faith through the lens of your own Scripture in the New Testament. I included these specific Scriptures because perhaps some of those condemning the practice might not realize that Christian celebration of the feasts in some way is not one religion disrespectfully making up their own version of another religion's faith practices, but rather exploring the meanings of a number of their own Scriptures.

 

There are similar Scriptures for others of the feasts.

To even bring up the Lord’s Supper (in relation to Levitical feasts) is a straw man argument.

 

Of course the Old Testament is “Scripture†to Christians. It is the history of Israel and the story of how we came to be. More importantly, it is types and shadows of the pre-incarnate Christ. It is the prophesying of His coming and the instructions how to live until that time. But after He came and went – those instructions for the large part are null and void. To follow them as a Christian is legalism. We are saved by GRACE ALONE. Feasts and sacrifices were to cover sins. Our sins – past, present and future – have been forgiven. Why stop at feasts? Why not butcher a spotless lamb on an alter? After all – it was done in the Old Testament, and that’s Scripture, isn’t it?

 

As for the bolded scripture above, I agree with John MacArthur:

 

In contrast to the Old Testament Passover feast celebrated annually, believers constantly celebrate the "feast" of the new Passover - Jesus Christ. As the Jews who celebrate Passover do so with unleavened bread, so believers celebrate their continual Passover with unleavened lives (meaning separated from the dominion of sin and death by the Perfect Passover Lamb).

 

My post is not at all any kind of commentary on Judaism, please don't read it that way! I am merely responding to the idea that Christians can or should adopt Jewish feasts and celebrations. I agree with Eliana, I don't think we should make it a neat game to try to add richness to our Christmas. We have plenty of richness and tradition. Milovany makes a good point, it makes a whole lot more sense to look to Orthodox traditions to add that richness to your Christian holidays and celebrations than it does Judaism.

[Laurie4b]

To even bring up the Lord’s Supper (in relation to Levitical feasts) is a straw man argument.

 

Of course the Old Testament is “Scripture†to Christians. It is the history of Israel and the story of how we came to be. More importantly, it is types and shadows of the pre-incarnate Christ. It is the prophesying of His coming and the instructions how to live until that time. But after He came and went – those instructions for the large part are null and void. To follow them as a Christian is legalism. We are saved by GRACE ALONE. Feasts and sacrifices were to cover sins. Our sins – past, present and future – have been forgiven. Why stop at feasts? Why not butcher a spotless lamb on an alter? After all – it was done in the Old Testament, and that’s Scripture, isn’t it?

 

As for the bolded scripture above, I agree with John MacArthur:

 

 

 

My post is not at all any kind of commentary on Judaism, please don't read it that way! I am merely responding to the idea that Christians can or should adopt Jewish feasts and celebrations. I agree with Eliana, I don't think we should make it a neat game to try to add richness to our Christmas. We have plenty of richness and tradition. Milovany makes a good point, it makes a whole lot more sense to look to Orthodox traditions to add that richness to your Christian holidays and celebrations than it does Judaism.

 

We actually agree on all but a tiny point. I was not addressing salvation issues, nor issues of sacrifice. I agree with you there. My only point was that the two religions, Judaism and Christianity, share common roots which make it understandable to me as to why a Christian would be interested in the OT feasts.

 

Though some of the feasts involved sacrifice, many also involved remembrance or "re-enactment" of God's work. I view particpation at that level as very appropriate for a Christian. You don't. That's fine. I believe thre is freedom to do it or freedom not to do it. I would view the controlling Scripture is Rom 14 and Col 2 :16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. " I believe that a Christian has the freedom to celebrate any of the feasts as an act of appreciating what God has done and understanding it better. The Christians I know who do so, do so as a means of deepening their understanding of the reality found in Christ and because they enjoy them. That seems perfectly okay to me in light of Rom 14 and Col 2. Rom 14: 22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God." I've never met anyone to whom this was a Galatians level issue.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Laurie4b

[i.love.lucy]

Thanks Laurie, for clarifying your thoughts! This gives me some new scripture and perspectives to chew on.:)

[brehon]

eaglei, i would encourage to you read some of the ECFs [Early Church Fathers] if you are truly looking for historical roots of Christianity. Certainly the Catholic Church (and, I believe, the Orthodox church) have many resources for this. (Polycarp, Iraneaus, Eumonius of Cyzicus, St Basil, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine of Hippo are a few to get you started - these are not the most important, necessarily, but those who happened to come immediately to mind)

 

I think learning about Jewish culture, traditions, and history is wonderful; but, trying to incorporate them into a Christian framework is...fraught, to say the least.

 

OT to Eliana or anyone else who knows the answer: a friend and I were discussing Jewish traditions of religious teaching/learning yesterday before Mass and comparing/contrasting what we knew of them to the Catholic traditions of same. Neither one of us could remember the oral tradition. I may not be explaining this right. There's Torah, the Talmud, and Mishrah (?) -- is that right? I do apologize if I've bungled the question and am not very clear.

[Ester Maria]

a friend and I were discussing Jewish traditions of religious teaching/learning yesterday before Mass and comparing/contrasting what we knew of them to the Catholic traditions of same. Neither one of us could remember the oral tradition. I may not be explaining this right. There's Torah, the Talmud, and Mishrah (?) -- is that right? I do apologize if I've bungled the question and am not very clear.

It's a bit more complicated than what I'm going to write, but if I were to summarize it really briefly, here is what you get.

 

When you say "Torah", there are two sides to it - there is a so-called "Written Torah" and there is a so-called "Oral Torah". The former, the written Torah, is what you probably call Pentatech. The latter, the oral Torah, is according to the Jewish belief also what was given by God on mount Sinai, but it's the part that's much larger and that was supposed to be handed down from generation to generation orally, and written down only if such circumstances happen that there's a possibility of it getting lost.

 

Such circumstances did eventually befall the nation, and it did get written down. The result of this process are all those heavy volumes of Talmud. The Talmud works the way that you have a central (visually, on the page) unit of the oral law, a unit called mishna, and around it you get rabbinical commentaries that explain it and argue about it, called gemara. And then on the next page again, and so forth. That way, the oral law got codified into the volumes of Talmud.

(To make the whole thing even better, there were actually two Talmuds, rather than one, as this process of codification happened on two places at the same time.)

 

The relation between the written and the oral law, from the Jewish perspective, is a necessary one, i.e. one doesn't function without the other one, you need the oral law to explain the written Torah, because you have certain things which are only hinted to in the written part, but are thoroughly explained in the oral part, etc.