So, who hasn't liked MCT? Why?

[snickelfritz]

I'm sorry, I was only trying to be helpful and show that it's possible to cover grammar much less expensively. I believe this is how 8 Fills the Heart covers grammar in her homeschool. Her posts about how to teach grammar are very helpful to me.

 

I was being sarcastic about my lack of grammar knowledge, not about the way you explained how you do it. One of those instances where humor doesn't come across on the 'net.

 

I believe this is how 8 Fills the Heart covers grammar in her homeschool. Her posts about how to teach grammar are very helpful to me.

 

I've read her posts and I am impressed with her methods....I just don't have the knowledge/comfort???? to duplicate it without something telling me how to do it. I know how to USE grammar and have done fairly well in various composition classes. But, I'm not very good at breaking it down into components and explaining WHY something should be done a certain way.

 

BUT you are right about the Rod and Staff. In the back of my mind is that people are often quite happy with it and it is VERY inexpensive.

[Poke Salad Annie]

I was being sarcastic about my lack of grammar knowledge, not about the way you explained how you do it. One of those instances where humor doesn't come across on the 'net.

 

 

That's okay. I just didn't want to come across the wrong way either. I only posted because there seems to be so much worry and confusion over elementary subjects here, and I wanted to offer an idea that wouldn't involve more expenditure.

[ShutterBug]

Okay people, excuse me, but I have to say something here. Every time one of these threads comes up, it gets flooded with people who DO love MCT. It also turns into something pretty insulting to those of us who answer that we don't love it with some implicit allegation that our kids aren't smart enough to benefit from it. We answer these threads trying to be helpful to people who are evaluating this product then get swamped with stories of how perfect it is.

 

Even gifted kids may not think it is the best thing in the world.

 

The love of MCT isn't some litmus test for intelligence.

:)

 

I'm going to go finish my coffee now.

 

I have to be honest and say that I wasn't aware until it was brought up on this thread that MCT was supposed to be a curriculum for "gifted" kids.

 

My pretty average at language arts 8 yo would need to use the "Town" level for it to be just at his level. The "Voyage" level would be a little bit of a challenge..but still rather do-able for him.

 

I'm not sure what makes this curriculum a gifted curriculum, but it's certainly not difficulty of content.

[catz]

I have to be honest and say that I wasn't aware until it was brought up on this thread that MCT was supposed to be a curriculum for "gifted" kids.

 

My pretty average at language arts 8 yo would need to use the "Town" level for it to be just at his level. The "Voyage" level would be a little bit of a challenge..but still rather do-able for him.

 

I'm not sure what makes this curriculum a gifted curriculum, but it's certainly not difficulty of content.

 

ROFL. I'll take that as a shot against my child's intelligence. :D I personally don't see anyone's opinions here as a statement on anyone's intelligence. I see this as a good discussion within the scope of the OP question. I've never given a 2nd thought to the font used in MCT. Does that mean I lack intelligence? :lol:

 

I think gifted often gets confused with accelerated. A child can be accelerated and not gifted. A child can be gifted and not accelerated. Or you can have a case of both. I do have a child that tests profoundly gifted. He is quite accelerated in some areas (math, reading, writing). But had very little grammar background starting with Island level in 3rd grade. The curriculum worked well for us in ways I would not have anticipated before getting through the first year. It fostered plenty of discussion and application we wouldn't have had a year or 2 earlier using the same curriculum even though he would have been more than capable to use it and understand it. We enjoy the flexibility and open ended nature of it.

 

But again - I can definitely see both sides of this curriculum. It's not going to be a fit for every family. If I had more than 2 kids I was trying to homeschool, I'm not sure I'd be using. I hope it works for my 2nd kid since I own it already (cha-ching) and she's already enjoyed following along, but who knows?

[ShutterBug]

ROFL. I'll take that as a shot against my child's intelligence. :D I personally don't see anyone's opinions here as a statement on anyone's intelligence. I see this as a good discussion within the scope of the OP question. I've never given a 2nd thought to the font used in MCT. Does that mean I lack intelligence? :lol:

 

I think gifted often gets confused with accelerated. A child can be accelerated and not gifted. A child can be gifted and not accelerated. Or you can have a case of both. I do have a child that tests profoundly gifted. He is quite accelerated in some areas (math, reading, writing). But had very little grammar background starting with Island level in 3rd grade. The curriculum worked well for us in ways I would not have anticipated before getting through the first year. It fostered plenty of discussion and application we wouldn't have had a year or 2 earlier using the same curriculum even though he would have been more than capable to use it and understand it. We enjoy the flexibility and open ended nature of it.

 

But again - I can definitely see both sides of this curriculum. It's not going to be a fit for every family. If I had more than 2 kids I was trying to homeschool, I'm not sure I'd be using. I hope it works for my 2nd kid since I own it already (cha-ching) and she's already enjoyed following along, but who knows?

 

I understand what you're saying...I guess what I'm confused about is WHAT makes this curriculum tailored for "gifted kids"?

 

It can't be the difficulty of content, if the content is at or below other curriculums for "average kids" of the same grade.

 

Is it the layout? The process?

 

Honestly just wondering :) .

 

ETA: I wasn't trying to take a shot at your child's intelligence :) . I was just trying to use my own dc as an example to show that the content of this curriculum isn't particularly advanced beyond any of the other curriculums I've seen out there, that's all.

[Dawn E]

It's just that that was the original concept...MCT was creating material to be used with gifted children. When he created the materials, this was his audience. I think the creativity he used to present the concepts and the deeper meanings that he hides throughout the text may appeal to gifted children. He makes language seem like an interesting puzzle that can be grasped and put together. I don't know what all went into "tailoring" it to that group. Educators in gifted education programs that do not meet daily have strict requirements to only use materials that go "above and beyond" that which is normally used in a typical classroom. During that one, two-day experience children are captivated and challenged with materials that either deal with topics they don't encounter normally (future problem solving, logic) or take topics they do encounter and present them in completely different, new ways. It was my thinking that the latter was the case with MCT's language courses which is why I looked at it more as a supplement/complement...but perhaps as another poster pointed out they may have been created to be used in gifted programs that meet daily. Not sure what the requirements are for those materials.

 

By no means does a child need to have a gifted level IQ to enjoy or completely understand and benefit from MCT. It's creative presentation may appeal to some gifted children and the presentation in a more conceptual way in narrative form. Gifted children are not just accelerated...in fact, though many are capable of being so, many also they lack the motivation, ambition or, perhaps, challenge to apply themselves. Some students are accelerated because they are ready for and begin materials at an early age. Sometimes these children plateau and sometimes they continue to work hard and excel at a higher level than their just as intelligent, and sometimes more intelligent, peers. Every child is different. MCT was simply created for, but is definitely not exclusively for, children with gifted level IQs.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Dawn E

[Penelope]

 

Maybe this will change as we get further into the series, but I don't feel like writing is taught as systematically as I'd like. We skipped nearly all the writing assignments in Sentence Island. They made me cringe--"Write a dialog about 2 characters, Axe and Link. One can only use linking verbs. The only can only use action verbs." My dd generally likes creative writing. But this was too open ended for her.

receive so little guidance about how to implement this series.

 

 

The writing section is what really stands out to me as targeted at "gifted" children. Very open-ended, can take a quick run-through of the concept and go ahead and apply them with creativity.

 

However, I don't think every gifted kid enjoys creative writing. Thanks for sharing your dd's experience because I was wondering about that. I definitely do not have creative writers here. I still think some of the exercises are valuable, and I think they can be tweaked to make them less open-ended. I am sure that is what a classroom teacher would do.

 

I think MCT was not an elementary teacher, am I right? I got the idea from some of his talks that he was a high school English teacher. So perhaps his strength is not in elementary writing assignments.

[catz]

I understand what you're saying...I guess what I'm confused about is WHAT makes this curriculum tailored for "gifted kids"?

.

 

I guess I can't say for certain. I'd love to hear MCT talk about it. I know when I was a child, my school experience consisted of lots of very rote, piecemeal curriculum. I rarely understood why we did what we did, and I thought I must be stupid. But once we got to more whole picture conceptual levels - high school and beyond, I was suddenly an honors student. I just think we tend to be whole picture, visual spatial learners over here. MCT seems to particularly work well for us.

 

It's a great question. It'd be great if he could pop in and weigh in on it! :001_smile:

[Matryoshka]

My pretty average at language arts 8 yo would need to use the "Town" level for it to be just at his level. The "Voyage" level would be a little bit of a challenge..but still rather do-able for him.

 

I'm not sure what makes this curriculum a gifted curriculum, but it's certainly not difficulty of content.

 

Are you talking about just the grammar books or the whole shebang? For a homeschool curriculum, the grammar might not be all that tough for the level it's at - but the rest of the program is quite challenging, so much that many people who started their 7th and 8th graders at the first ML level found they had to back all they way up to Town for writing. I'd say the grammar is by far the least challenging of the books. I've finally given up trying to stay at one level, and I'm using the grammar a level up.

 

What about the content are you finding lacking, specifically? There are very large jumps in difficulty between levels (which I'm guessing is part of the gifted aspect - most kids would need more steps between the levels, and more step-by-step instruction).

 

It's also the kind of program that it's hard to "get" where the meat is till you're working through it - so much of the benefit is in the discussion it engenders. But, yeah, for people who don't want dialogues with their kids about grammar, and just want something to hand to them to get it done, it's not the right program. It's not perfect and it's not for everyone.

[Embassy]

Michael Clay Thompson says this in his speech titled A response to 'All children are gifted'

 

What kinds of instructional differentiation do gifted children need? They need instruction that responds to their extra curiosity, to their urgency for meaning, to their advanced vocabularies, to their interest in complexity, to their fast comprehensions, to their vast memories. Gifted children need choice-- individualized and self-regulating experiences that are appropriate to their

self-motivated independence. They need higher-order thinking activities that give their abstract minds a workout. They need Socratic, the energies of their inherent, constant questioning. They need advanced levels of subject matter because they can learn them and short instructions because they will understand them immediately and quick paces through difficult material because they don’t need many things repeated. Gifted kids do need research; they don’t need many workbooks. They do need a variety of learning experiences; they don’t need just more amounts of the problems in the textbook.

 

I've only started using MCT. In one aspect it looks easy, but when you consider all the components it looks quite challenging. I had heard that it didn't give many writing assignments, but when I had the books in front of me I was surprised at the vast number of writing assignments offered.

[katilac]

Okay people, excuse me, but I have to say something here. Every time one of these threads comes up, it gets flooded with people who DO love MCT. It also turns into something pretty insulting to those of us who answer that we don't love it with some implicit allegation that our kids aren't smart enough to benefit from it. We answer these threads trying to be helpful to people who are evaluating this product then get swamped with stories of how perfect it is.

 

Even gifted kids may not think it is the best thing in the world.

 

The love of MCT isn't some litmus test for intelligence.

:)

 

I'm going to go finish my coffee now.

 

decaf's in the ORANGE pot, karen, ;)

[TKDmom]

Okay people, excuse me, but I have to say something here. Every time one of these threads comes up, it gets flooded with people who DO love MCT. It also turns into something pretty insulting to those of us who answer that we don't love it with some implicit allegation that our kids aren't smart enough to benefit from it. We answer these threads trying to be helpful to people who are evaluating this product then get swamped with stories of how perfect it is.

 

Even gifted kids may not think it is the best thing in the world.

 

The love of MCT isn't some litmus test for intelligence.

:)

 

I'm going to go finish my coffee now.

 

Thanks. I feel like I'm committing heresy by suggesting that MCT has flaws. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm also starting to doubt my dd's IQ test, and all the quirky things about her that have always told me that she was different from the average child.

 

So right now, I vacillate between thinking, "DD is an average kid, why do I keep insisting she's gifted?" and , "Man, she's way smarter than me. I never made those kind of connections at her age."

 

All this because I've found flaws in a LA program that I was sure would be totally perfect. :001_huh:

[TKDmom]

The cost is a bit off-putting and it's one reason I want to know the negatives about the program. I do have 2 kiddos to use it with, so the non-consumables will be well used. I don't mind it being teacher intensive. Too much flipping in different books might be a problem. I don't need it exactly spelled out day-by-day (I LOVE AAS), but I do need a plan. And I don't want to buy a sledgehammer if a mallet will work.

 

My issue is that grammar/writing/etc... are not my strong suits. I'd rather teach calculus. I can wing it for myself, but I don't usually know WHY something is right.

 

Diagramming...um yeah. I think I did that once. Or twice. Winging a grammar lesson by adding in diagramming and making the lesson fun......um.....let's get back to finding a complete program.

 

Anyway.....

 

It's not time to buy, so I'll just keep an eye out for how the reviews change in the next few months.

 

I'm much more comfortable with the thought of teaching calculus than 4th grade LA, too. :lol:

 

MCT originally appealed to me because its quirkiness seems to fit my DD's quirkiness very well. I asked her today if she'd like to take a break with MCTLA (because I feel like she needs to work on some of the skills in WWE and the thought of doing multiple LA programs is stressing me out). She was kinda horrified by my suggestion.

 

So I hope I haven't totally put you off the program. I tried FLL and WWE with my dd. They were spectacular failures. My older ds loves both of those programs, but dd just refused to cooperate with me on them. MCT has its flaws, but my dd loves it. She begs to do Grammar. She spontaneously wrote a poem the other day. :001_wub: I think that's the whole point of the program--to ignite a love of language in kids. Many of the flaws can be worked around if dc develop that love. It's not perfect. I wish it was, but for now I'll keep using it. I'd rather use something without diagramming that dd loves than teach diagramming and make her hate it. KWIM?

[Dawn E]

Thanks. I feel like I'm committing heresy by suggesting that MCT has flaws. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm also starting to doubt my dd's IQ test, and all the quirky things about her that have always told me that she was different from the average child.

 

So right now, I vacillate between thinking, "DD is an average kid, why do I keep insisting she's gifted?" and , "Man, she's way smarter than me. I never made those kind of connections at her age."

 

All this because I've found flaws in a LA program that I was sure would be totally perfect. :001_huh:

 

Bonnie, I'm sorry for bringing up the gifted issue. My point in doing so was to express my questions about whether it was initially developed as a stand alone program or a program used in addition to a more traditional program. I still am not sure. :) If my posts contributed at all to you feeling the above-mentioned frustrations, I apologize.

[TKDmom]

Bonnie, I'm sorry for bringing up the gifted issue. My point in doing so was to express my questions about whether it was initially developed as a stand alone program or a program used in addition to a more traditional program. I still am not sure. :) If my posts contributed at all to you feeling the above-mentioned frustrations, I apologize.

 

 

No not at all!! You don't need to apologize. My frustrations are coming out in this thread, not being caused by it. :001_smile:

 

The program was developed as a stand-alone program.

[Dawn E]

The program was developed as a stand-alone program.

 

Thanks! Question answered. :) I guess I'm just not trusting enough of the program to let it be here...maybe my opinion will change in time.

[HRAAB]

I've never used a complete language arts program at the elementary level before except occasionally Winston Grammar to teach parts of speech and a little out of Primary Language Lessons. MCT is the first complete program I've ever purchased. My twins are enjoying it - no complaints. However, it leaves me feeling as though it's not enough on its own. So I am continuing to teach grammar as I have done in the past: using copywork and dictation from our reading material. Also, after we analyze the sentence, I'm teaching them how to diagram the same sentence.

 

I've not used many of his writing suggestions, and again find myself having the girls rewrite stories after making a simple outline. I have WWE level 3 and will probably use some of that, also. Admittedly, I have not seen the Town level of the writing portion yet, and that might work better than Sentence Island did.

 

In spite of of my feeling it's not enough, my girls truly enjoy the program, look forward to it, love the stories and pictures, and their retention has been excellent. But, as I said, I'm continuing to cover grammar with dictation, but I have to admit their retention has been better than my older three.

[Miss Marple]

Not sure I should enter these waters, but just wanted to shed some light on a few of the objections - not that I'm trying to sell anyone on MCT...

 

It seems that the majority, if not all of you, are using the lower levels of MCT LA. I'm one of the few using the upper levels. I haven't seen the lower levels, but it seems that the lack of punctuation instruction as well as diagramming is an issue.

 

In Magic Lens Vol. 1, diagramming is included with the 4 level sentence analysis. It is pretty basic diagramming with the horizontal lines and the vertical line separating the subject from the predicate - then the other words are added in on the diagonal lines under their appropriate "headings". At the Vol. 1 level it isn't too complex.

 

Each lesson in Essay Voyage has a punctuation page in which the student practices punctuation. It isn't simply a worksheet of all possible punctuation, but rather in context with the writing learned. So for the lesson teaching introductory elements, the comma is practiced.

 

Additionally, in Magic Lens Vol. 1, there is a large section on punctuation rules. It's more of a rule-book for punctuation to which the student can refer if necessary.

 

So...there you have it. These elements are an integral part of the upper level texts. I did not use the lower levels because I didn't know about MCT at that time. So my boys were well versed in basic diagramming and punctuation skills before we started MCT.

 

And I totally agree that it is a nightmare to work out a schedule! But I've done it :D

[TKDmom]

Not sure I should enter these waters, but just wanted to shed some light on a few of the objections - not that I'm trying to sell anyone on MCT...

 

It seems that the majority, if not all of you, are using the lower levels of MCT LA. I'm one of the few using the upper levels. I haven't seen the lower levels, but it seems that the lack of punctuation instruction as well as diagramming is an issue.

 

In Magic Lens Vol. 1, diagramming is included with the 4 level sentence analysis. It is pretty basic diagramming with the horizontal lines and the vertical line separating the subject from the predicate - then the other words are added in on the diagonal lines under their appropriate "headings". At the Vol. 1 level it isn't too complex.

 

Each lesson in Essay Voyage has a punctuation page in which the student practices punctuation. It isn't simply a worksheet of all possible punctuation, but rather in context with the writing learned. So for the lesson teaching introductory elements, the comma is practiced.

 

Additionally, in Magic Lens Vol. 1, there is a large section on punctuation rules. It's more of a rule-book for punctuation to which the student can refer if necessary.

 

So...there you have it. These elements are an integral part of the upper level texts. I did not use the lower levels because I didn't know about MCT at that time. So my boys were well versed in basic diagramming and punctuation skills before we started MCT.

 

And I totally agree that it is a nightmare to work out a schedule! But I've done it :D

 

I've been waiting for someone to talk about the upper levels. :D Thanks.

[ShutterBug]

I feel like I should clarify. Ds hasn't been tested for IQ...so he could be gifted. He fits much of the criteria and is ahead for some aspects of language arts. At 8 he's reading at a high school level, he's a natural speller and writes exceptionally creative stories. Math comes extremely easy to him allowing him to work a few years ahead and he prodigiously talented in other areas such as chess (he's rated out of scholastic events and has been bumped into the adult sections).

 

When I said he was a perfectly average language arts student, I was speaking specifically about grammar (which we just really branched into within the last year) and the more technical aspects of writing (forming paragraphs, etc..). He's working relatively easily through WWE 4 and Growing With Grammar 4, but nothing that far out there.

 

So, overall, yes, it's possible. BUT, he's not exceptionally gifted in grammar and writing, which were the components I was looking at with regards to the MCT curriculum and why I was taken aback that the curriculum was designed for gifted kids.

 

Thank you to those who posted a bit more about the process and concepts behind MCT, it helps to answer some questions I had :) .

[Johanna]

the poetry was supposed to be so good, but we are having a hard time retaining it....its gone way over our heads!!

But, we are LOVING Ceasars English and grammar town!!

[StephanieZ]

the poetry was supposed to be so good, but we are having a hard time retaining it....its gone way over our heads!!

But, we are LOVING Ceasars English and grammar town!!

 

I think that's the beauty of using the multiple levels, as each level builds on what came before. I did the Town level poetry with my olders last year, and we had to think/work at every page. . . Retention has been good, but we put a solid effort into it, talking through each page, looking at the sample poems, etc. Meter was agony for ds & I, eventhough dd could 'hear' it much more easily. It took time & more time for ds & I to begin to hear it!

 

Now that I've seen the Island & Voyage poetry books, I can see that retention will be so easy over time b/c each year you are refreshing the knowledge and deepening it. . . Dd7 who is starting at the beginning w/Island will have such an easy time of it!!

 

So, just hang in there with the poetry. You don't need 100% retention at Town level. . . Just get what you can, and trust that next year you'll probably have a MUCH easier time of it!

[Susan in KY]

I was "meh" on the MCT line until I saw him speak at a convention, and then I thought he was so bloody brilliant that I had to try some of the books.

 

:iagree: Same thing happened to me. :001_smile: I'd've saved a bundle if not for that 45 minute gap in my schedule at the convention. However, I must say I think the curriculum is as brills as he is. I really like how simple and meaty it is at the same time. Like good steak and potatoes, only the steak is mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :)

[Aludlam]

My school had nothing for gifted kids. Not once a week, not once a month, certainly not every day. For pretty much my entire elementary career, I was put in a corner with a couple of other kids, handed books, and told to figure it out for myself. I seem to recall in 2nd grade they just flipped the book open halfway through and had us start there. :glare:

 

You know what our state budget for gifted programs is? $0.

 

 

Hey, I think I might have been sitting by you. :001_huh: Just kidding ... sort of.

[Debbie in OR]

We tried Grammar Town and Paragraph Town about a year ago because I heard how much fun it was to snuggle on the couch while doing grammar. We are big couch-snugglers here :001_smile: The teacher-intensive part of it was a non-issue.

 

And yes, we did love the couch-time and we had fun reading the stories...dc loved the stories, actually. I loved the 4-level analysis (we do diagramming separately).

 

But, in the end, we found it to be....meh. There was no retention for either of my kids. I don't know if they were focusing so much on the stories that they missed the whole point (we did do all the pages of exercise after each section and added in our own) or what. But there was nothing. And while I have no idea if my kids are "gifted", they do test several grades above grade level every year. So, I don't think it's an issue of intelligence.

 

Also, I thought there was inadequate instruction for the teacher to teach the material.

 

We have found grammar that uses something similar to the 4-level analysis but for some reason, they are retaining this material.

 

(I will add, even though I know this is a thread about why we DIDN'T like it, that his chart for dependent and independent clauses and where the commas go was really helpful for dc).

Edited November 4, 2010 by Debbie in OR

[5andNsmomma]

I'm just wondering what type of teaching/learning style MCT is a hit for and what type it's a miss for.

 

GREAT QUESTION! I've been wondering this too.

[Leanna Tomlinson]

 

We have found grammar that uses something similar to the 4-level analysis but for some reason, they are retaining this material.

 

 

 

Can you tell us what program you use? :D

[Matryoshka]

But, in the end, we found it to be....meh. There was no retention for either of my kids. I don't know if they were focusing so much on the stories that they missed the whole point (we did do all the pages of exercise after each section and added in our own) or what. But there was nothing.

 

Hm. Did you just use the Grammar book, or the whole program? If you're just doing grammar, the Practice books are necessary. And I'll fess up - we blast through the actual Grammar books and spend almost all our time in the other books - that's really where the meat and the retention comes in. I've been amazed at my kids' retention.

 

If I were just to buy the Grammar book and nothing else, I wouldn't be impressed either, and I wouldn't expect any retention - there's not enough practice or depth - that comes in the other books. The Grammar book is just a big-picture overview to get you started.

 

Of course if you were using the whole program, my comments are not relevant to you.. but I thought I'd put them out there anyway, because I do think there are people who've just gotten the one book and think it's complete, and then are disappointed - the Grammar in MCT is intertwined with all the other components, and is extended, deepened, and applied there. So just a heads up for anyone new looking into this - if it's just Grammar you want, you need to add the Practice book at a bare minimum.

[Crimson Wife]

Hm. Did you just use the Grammar book, or the whole program? If you're just doing grammar, the Practice books are necessary. And I'll fess up - we blast through the actual Grammar books and spend almost all our time in the other books - that's really where the meat and the retention comes in. I've been amazed at my kids' retention.

 

If I were just to buy the Grammar book and nothing else, I wouldn't be impressed either, and I wouldn't expect any retention - there's not enough practice or depth - that comes in the other books. The Grammar book is just a big-picture overview to get you started.

 

Of course if you were using the whole program, my comments are not relevant to you.. but I thought I'd put them out there anyway, because I do think there are people who've just gotten the one book and think it's complete, and then are disappointed - the Grammar in MCT is intertwined with all the other components, and is extended, deepened, and applied there. So just a heads up for anyone new looking into this - if it's just Grammar you want, you need to add the Practice book at a bare minimum.

 

IMHO even using both the grammar & the practice books doesn't give a complete grammar program. At least at the "town" level, the bulk of the grammar instruction is in Paragraph Town. So one would need at minimum those 3 books.

 

This is actually my biggest beef with MCT. Why, oh why, couldn't he have just put ALL the grammar instruction into ONE book, logically organized by topic?

[TracyP]

Also, I thought there was inadequate instruction for the teacher to teach the material.

 

 

Has anyone else felt this way? This is my one worry since I am the first to admit that my knowledge of grammar is not good.

[8filltheheart]

Has anyone else felt this way? This is my one worry since I am the first to admit that my knowledge of grammar is not good.

 

While my grammar knowledge is sufficient enough to use his Voyage book w/o difficulty, I have wondered how teachers w/o a solid grammar background would cope with the level of instruction. I know for myself that if I hadn't taught these grammar concepts before that I would have felt ill-prepared to teach them to my children based on what are in his texts alone.

 

I just don't understand the idea of spending several pages on just articles or nouns, etc and then cramming all verbals into a couple of pages.

[Gratia271]

While my grammar knowledge is sufficient enough to use his Voyage book w/o difficulty, I have wondered how teachers w/o a solid grammar background would cope with the level of instruction. I know for myself that if I hadn't taught these grammar concepts before that I would have felt ill-prepared to teach them to my children based on what are in his texts alone.

 

I just don't understand the idea of spending several pages on just articles or nouns, etc and then cramming all verbals into a couple of pages.

 

:iagree:

[Capt_Uhura]

Grammar Town is in it's 2nd edition giving much more teacher prep. I haven't seen it yet to make specific comments about the changes. I believe it was due to come off the presses last week.

[Kuovonne]

Grammar Town is in it's 2nd edition giving much more teacher prep. I haven't seen it yet to make specific comments about the changes. I believe it was due to come off the presses last week.

 

The web site has samples of the 2nd edition of Grammar Town. The samples show far more side-bars with instructions for the teacher. If you didn't know what to discuss on the pages before, they would help.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Kuovonne

[justamouse]

This is actually my biggest beef with MCT. Why, oh why, couldn't he have just put ALL the grammar instruction into ONE book, logically organized by topic?

 

 

because the more books you have to buy, the more $$$$$ he makes. I mean, that is one expensive curriculum, and if you have more than one spanning different grades? Yeowch.

[radiobrain]

because the more books you have to buy, the more $$$$$ he makes. I mean, that is one expensive curriculum, and if you have more than one spanning different grades? Yeowch.

 

I disagree with this.

 

The books are designed to be interwoven, as all language arts are both individual and combined subjects. I think that is part of what makes MCT different. A great, big, beautiful quilt of language. Sometimes, it can be irritating to some people, but others appreciate it.

 

Keep in mind that RFWP has gone out of its way to make their curriculum more accessible and affordable to HSers. They have written homeschool manuals, that are a bit different and less expensive than the regular ones. They have put together 2 different package sets, and tell you... yes, you only need the TM in the elementary levels. Now, I am sure they would love to sell complete packages to all HSers, but they aren't doing it just to make $$$. MCT has been writing this series over 30 years. He is passionate about it. His publishers are also passionate about bringing their products to as many people as possible, as the world can always use more people who are thoughtful and intelligent about their use and understanding of language.

 

It is 4 subjects, presented exceptionally well, IMHO, that is not outrageously expensive, as many other programs are. I think that TOG, SL, IEW and others are very expensive. I am sure that for those who it works with think it is well worth the $$.

 

oh no! Dinner is burning!

 

:tongue_smilie:

[StephanieZ]

because the more books you have to buy, the more $$$$$ he makes. I mean, that is one expensive curriculum, and if you have more than one spanning different grades? Yeowch.

 

Ouch.

 

In addition to being a handy acronym for a great LA curriculum, MCT is also actually a real human being. This is unkind, IMHO.

 

Recall that these books were created for the school market, not hs'ers. So, there was no advantage to the single grade classroom teacher/purchaser to combine ages/levels or to reuse things from grade to grade.

 

The hs market was not the original aim for these materials.

 

Personally, I don't get why everyone keeps saying MCT is so expensive. It is cheap compared to many of my curriculum purchases (IEW, SL), and in line with many others. Nearly all of it is reusable & also resale-able. I spend more per year on one kid's ThinkWell math than I do on a year of MCT. And TW math is one year license, completely un-reusable, not even for the same child! $100-$150 for a year's complete LA just doesn't seem out of the ballpark to me, especially when you can recoup most of that reselling. It's one fancy dinner out. It's one month pricey cable. . .

[justamouse]

Ouch.

 

In addition to being a handy acronym for a great LA curriculum, MCT is also actually a real human being. This is unkind, IMHO.

 

Recall that these books were created for the school market, not hs'ers. So, there was no advantage to the single grade classroom teacher/purchaser to combine ages/levels or to reuse things from grade to grade.

 

The hs market was not the original aim for these materials.

 

Personally, I don't get why everyone keeps saying MCT is so expensive. It is cheap compared to many of my curriculum purchases (IEW, SL), and in line with many others. Nearly all of it is reusable & also resale-able. I spend more per year on one kid's ThinkWell math than I do on a year of MCT. And TW math is one year license, completely un-reusable, not even for the same child! $100-$150 for a year's complete LA just doesn't seem out of the ballpark to me, especially when you can recoup most of that reselling. It's one fancy dinner out. It's one month pricey cable. . .

 

for my family to purchase all of the books for each grade I have it would be well over 500. I had it all in my cart, I was thinking about it. For a family that is struggling in this economy, something like that it out of their reach no matter how wonderful.

 

It might sound unkind, but it's the economics of putting together a package and how you place your product. I've had stores, I've made products, I have business now that manufactures goods. His name is on his product, and yes, he IS a person. But that doesn't mean that very precise marketing, P&L sheets and packaging didn't go into his decisions (or that someone else isn't in charge of all those decisions and making them off of a P&L sheet).

 

Always remember you are being marketed to, and with homeschooling it's through/for your kids. And parents will buy whatever they can for their kids if they think it will make them smarter, better, faster, brilliant, or 'gifted'. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that not taking marketing into account when you're purchasing homeschooling curriculum is opening your window and throwing $ out. Homeschooling is getting HUGE and publishers are always looking for the newest curriculum that parents will gobble up.

Edited November 4, 2010 by justamouse

[Crimson Wife]

I don't think the reason for the 3 separate books is about the money either. It seems like it has more to do with his teaching philosophy.

 

MCT reminds me of one of my DH's old bosses- nice guy but the way he would bounce back and forth between topics and then circle around back to the first one drove my DH nuts. It was almost like the guy had ADD or something. That's the way I feel about how MCT organizes his grammar.

[Crimson Wife]

for my family to purchase all of the books for each grade I have it would be well over 500. I had it all in my cart, I was thinking about it.

 

If I had kids your students' ages, I would do one of 2 things depending on where the 8 y.o. twins are working at. Option #1 would be to get one set of the "town" level for your 11 y.o. and your 8 y.o. twins. Have each student do the Practice Town exercises on notebook paper. Option #2 would be to get one set of the "island" level for your twins and the 7 y.o. Again do the Practice Island exercises on notebook paper. The following year, get the "town" level and add in the then-12 y.o.

[justamouse]

If I had kids your students' ages, I would do one of 2 things depending on where the 8 y.o. twins are working at. Option #1 would be to get one set of the "town" level for your 11 y.o. and your 8 y.o. twins. Have each student do the Practice Town exercises on notebook paper. Option #2 would be to get one set of the "island" level for your twins and the 7 y.o. Again do the Practice Island exercises on notebook paper. The following year, get the "town" level and add in the then-12 y.o.

 

Thank you, but I can't bring myself to purchase them. I even just went back to the new improved catalogue and flipped through the virtual pages. I honestly see no difference between it and other LA curric other than pictures. Perhaps it's because I feel more proficient teaching grammar, but I could piece together two currics and come up with the same types of lessons and not spend half the money.

[Debbie in OR]

Hm. Did you just use the Grammar book, or the whole program? If you're just doing grammar, the Practice books are necessary.

 

It's a legitimate question and no, we didn't use the whole program, although we did use the practice books, and probably not long enough to give a truly accurate evaluation. I have learned, though, in my short 6+ years of homeschooling, to evaluate quickly what works for us. I could tell after a few months we were going to have to do something else.

 

I am glad to hear that the newer edition has more teaching helps included. I was in Honors English in high school but it has been a looong time...and I am not sure I even learned some of this stuff (well, I could have but, ya know, I've slept since then :glare:).

 

Also, (how in the world do you multi-quote, btw? I have never figured it out :001_huh:) to the pp who asked what I am using now, it is called Classic Grammar from the NOAH Plan. It's new this year and I love it because it uses 3 great books (each grade level uses different books) and a book of the Bible when analyzing sentences. They use a 6-level (it includes diagramming) -- rather than 4-level -- analysis and combines literature analysis and writing (although we do not use the writing piece). But, it utilizes the Principle Approach, which is great and I love, but unless you have been using it, there is a BIG learning curve. Since I have been using PA for a few years, learning the grammar piece has gone (mostly :tongue_smilie:) smoothly.

[Kuovonne]

it is called Classic Grammar from the NOAH Plan. ... They use a 6-level (it includes diagramming) -- rather than 4-level -- analysis and combines literature analysis and writing (although we do not use the writing piece).

 

What are the 6 levels? Are the 4 levels that MCT uses included? Is diagramming the 5th level? What is the 6th level?

[Debbie in OR]

What are the 6 levels? Are the 4 levels that MCT uses included? Is diagramming the 5th level? What is the 6th level?

 

It is similar to MCT. Actually, what I should have said is there is a 6-step process of systematic, guided questions you ask to "unlock the pattern of a sentence"...i.e. to find the verb, the subject, complements, predicate nouns/adjective complements, modifiers, etc...But, it's also done in a "level" format:

 

You examine the sentence in context as a whole first; then use the guided questions to analyze the sentence pattern, name the pattern, diagram the sentence, parse the words and decide if it's simple/complex/compound. (We also set prepositions apart while doing the initial analysis.) I will also have the kids change the sentence into a different kind of sentence (interrogative, declarative, etc...) There is a handy form they have that we copy everyday for use with whichever sentence we are going to analyze. These go into a page protector and the kids write the sentence at the top and work through the steps. There are several sentences from the books but you may also use the steps and form to do other sentences (if you felt comfortable doing it without a teacher's guide).

 

We also do word analysis and word studies using vocabulary from the books.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Debbie in OR

[Kuovonne]

It is similar to MCT. Actually, what I should have said is there is a 6-step process of systematic, guided questions you ask to "unlock the pattern of a sentence"...i.e. to find the verb, the subject, complements, predicate nouns/adjective complements, modifiers, etc...

 

Thank you for the explaination. That 6-step process sounds very different from MCT, where one can start the analysis anywhere.

[Debbie in OR]

Thank you for the explaination. That 6-step process sounds very different from MCT, where one can start the analysis anywhere.

 

Maybe we were doing MCT wrong then :tongue_smilie: because we do our analysis in mostly the same order as we did MCT...

 

When we used MCT, we would figure out the parts of speech first. This was where we needed a guided structure as there were times we weren't sure what part of speech the word was and just having the brief (sometimes non-existent) teacher box to explain didn't always help.

 

Then we would decide how each part of speech was being used in the sentence, if there were any phrases, and finally if it was simple, complex, compound, etc...

 

This is pretty much the same order we do our analyzing now, except that we have the guided questions to help us figure out the parts of speech and we end by diagramming and turning the sentence into a different type of sentence (interrogative into a declarative, etc..). I suppose you could do this in any order, but doing it this way makes sense to us.

[Kuovonne]

Maybe we were doing MCT wrong then :tongue_smilie: because we do our analysis in mostly the same order as we did MCT...

...

I suppose you could do this in any order, but doing it this way makes sense to us.

 

MCT analysis can be done in any order, so of course your order is correct.

My DD just sometimes prefers to do things in different order, depending on what she sees first.