s/o: Paying For "Women's Work"

[Rosie_0801]

[/url]

Don't miss Food Not Lawns

either, even if you don't have an interest in gardening.

 

 

That was the book that inspired us to give up our fridge.

 

:)

Rosie

[Rosie_0801]

Do young Americans read Enid Blyton? I always thought the phrase "sending a person to Coventry" an interesting one.

 

;)

Rosie

[Audrey]

Do young Americans read Enid Blyton? I always thought the phrase "sending a person to Coventry" an interesting one.

 

;)

Rosie

 

Indeed! :lol:

[Audrey]

That was the book that inspired us to give up our fridge.

 

:)

Rosie

 

Give up the fridge? :001_huh: I've not heard of that before and I'm very intrigued. Would you explain that a bit more?

[Mrs Mungo]

Do young Americans read Enid Blyton? I always thought the phrase "sending a person to Coventry" an interesting one.

 

;)

Rosie

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

Give up the fridge? :001_huh: I've not heard of that before and I'm very intrigued. Would you explain that a bit more?

 

Not much to it, really. We're mostly vegan so the rare meat and dairy that comes in the house is promptly cooked and eaten so doesn't require storage. We live walking distance to the shops. With tots, I couldn't do it otherwise because the hassle of putting them in the car, pulling them back out, trying to make sure the first one doesn't get run over while I get the second, etc would very quickly change this interesting challenge into pain for everyone.

 

Almost everything that is labeled as needing refrigeration doesn't because they are packed full of preservatives (artificial or otherwise,) you just can't keep it forever unless you do. Even in the absolute height of summer, I can leave left overs from dinner on the bench and they are fine for breakfast. In winter, they can sit there for about as long as they'd last in the fridge.

 

We have just won a bid on Ebay for a mini fridge though. I've got a bottle of vitamin liquid in the pantry that doesn't have preservatives so really does need to be refrigerated, sitting unopened while the kids have been sick with a bug they wouldn't have had if I'd given them the vitamins. So, learning from that experience, and having the fortune of being employed again, we've scraped the money together to get a, I think, 5L fridge. I expect it will sit unused in the cupboard 95% of the time because it is only for kids medicines. They've never had anything worse than a bad cold, but it seems responsible, now they're both weaned, to make provisions for that sort of thing.

 

It means, since we're not in a position to be growing our own fruit and veg, that we need to shop most days, but that's a good excuse to get our bottoms out of the house- the kiddies aren't quite the homebodies I am. It's also a cheap outing because we have to buy food anyway, and the kids are too young to know that grocery shopping isn't fun :) And, of course, they say exercise is good for you and I don't do it unless there is a good reason, and food is a good reason.

 

Basically, after reading about people giving up their fridges, we realised we were running it for about six things we didn't need anyway.

 

Was that a longer answer than you required? :)

 

Rosie

[Lostinabook]

Saille, I have vehemently disagreed with some of your posts in the past, but I am very much enjoying this discussion including all of your posts. I don't have much to add to this thread, but I do appreciate it.:)

 

:iagree:

[Saille]

Saille, I have vehemently disagreed with some of your posts in the past, but I am very much enjoying this discussion including all of your posts. I don't have much to add to this thread, but I do appreciate it.:)

 

Well, knock me over with a feather!

 

Thanks!

[angela in ohio]

Really? Is it that bad for many of you? Thats what is getting me about this thread- is it really so "wierd" to do what you are doing- homeschooling, SAHM etc? Or, does it just make you uncomfortable to be seen as just a bit different, and perhaps you are over sensitive to people's moderate judgements? I mostly feel people dont really care what other people do....people are too self obsessed for that. So I dont take it all very personally.

I am so used to not being normal or mainstream I am finding it hard to relate to those of you who find it such a big deal that you are no longer considered such. I am finding it hard to relate to why it would matter very much to you. But perhaps I have just become immune to people's judgements from my years of being on the outside of that whole career world anyway. Or perhaps the community I live in encourages individuality and walking your own path to the extent that I feel what I do actually inspires many, even if at the same time they might also have judgements.

 

It (my SAHM status) is not a big deal for most that we know. It does seem to be seen as a bit of a "privilege" for dh to afford a SAHM. :D I've had exactly two people make comments, and one was snotty and one was just suprise and confusion (the insurance woman for dh's company who couldn't figure out what to do with someone who "doesn't have a job!") And if you compare that to the many over the years who have told me how wonderful it is, I come out well. We have had several families, men, and women come to us to ask how to go about getting mom home permanently.

 

I know we're not mainstream, but like you said, I'm not in many other ways, either. It's never been a goal. :D I don't mind the few snide opinions in the media about my "value." I know my value, and so does my dh. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

It means, since we're not in a position to be growing our own fruit and veg, that we need to shop most days, but that's a good excuse to get our bottoms out of the house- the kiddies aren't quite the homebodies I am. It's also a cheap outing because we have to buy food anyway, and the kids are too young to know that grocery shopping isn't fun :) And, of course, they say exercise is good for you and I don't do it unless there is a good reason, and food is a good reason.

 

Rosie

Well Rosie, I always think you are way cool, but this is just awesome. Love it.

[Audrey]

Not too long at all, Rosie. I've never considered giving up the fridge, but as you explained it, it makes sense. Why waste the energy on an appliance that runs all the time, when you don't actually use it (much)? I use mine a lot though, so I don't think that would work well for me.

 

I feel similarly about air conditioning here. We have maybe a dozen days in the entire year that are over 30°. It makes no sense to me to have central air for that, nor does it make sense to me to install window units.

 

I admire your sense of sense on the issue.

[Rosie_0801]

I use mine a lot though, so I don't think that would work well for me.

 

It has been interesting. We thought it would be much more of an issue than it turned out to be, actually. If we ate meat and dairy regularly, it would be far too much hassle. When we have our own place, we might look into some of the old tricks the pre-electric folk used to use. The Lawns to Lunch book gave an example of a sliding window that didn't catch direct sun opening to a meat safe. Someone on here I think, told me her grandmother keeps a slab of marble in the pantry to keep butter cool on. We don't use butter, but I wonder if that would be handy for something else. I would also like to get some large unglazed jugs for keeping water cooler than the tap provides in summer. We haven't needed these things yet, but I expect them to become important if we ever get to the stage where we are producing a significant amount of our own food. Cold cellaring would be good in that situation, I'm sure, but I don't know whether that is something we'll be able to do.

 

And I really like having replaced the space where the fridge was with a bookshelf so I can keep my gadgets there instead of cluttering up the bench so there is no room to actually use them!

 

Anyway, I get kicks out of it. :D I'm not sure why it is fun, but it is. The intellectual foodie challenge of it, I guess!

 

Rosie

 

Edit: I also find it encourages me (this is not foolproof, sadly!) to eat the way I ought. If it is habit to go out each day to buy salad greens, I go out to buy salad greens, and since I bought them, I eat them. Since they are on the bench staring me in the face, instead of out of sight in the fridge, I'm more likely to make the (yeah I know, minor) effort of making it.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Rosie_0801
Another thought...

[Lovedtodeath]

The only thing that has me :confused: is that I always throw dinner out if I don't get it into the fridge within 3 hours.

[Rosie_0801]

The only thing that has me :confused: is that I always throw dinner out if I don't get it into the fridge within 3 hours.

 

If the weather is warm and the dinner includes meat or dairy, or you just have family with sensitive tummies, that's probably the right thing to do.

 

Rosie

[Lovedtodeath]

So I can keep a salad, rice, beans or cooked vegetables for longer than 3 hours?

[Renee in NC]

So I can keep a salad, rice, beans or cooked vegetables for longer than 3 hours?

 

I always have. Rice is something I would be more careful with - mine seems to start to mold within a day.

[Rosie_0801]

So I can keep a salad, rice, beans or cooked vegetables for longer than 3 hours?

 

A salad without dressing would probably keep until lunch time the next day, but would be looking a bit wilted.

 

The rice really depends on the weather and if it is mixed in with sauces or something, they would mask if it was going bad. I wouldn't have any problem leaving rice cooked into something over night and eating it for breakfast except in the height of summer. We tend not to eat rice so much then, though, to avoid the issue. In winter, it seems to last three days without problems.

 

The beans would be fine for a couple of days in a pie or casserole, but they start going manky if left uncooked in water for a day. And of course they'll start to sprout. I'm only a novice sprouter so I don't know off the top of my head what kinds of beans shouldn't be eaten sprouted (if any.)

 

With cooked veggies, if they aren't mouldy they're ok. They can get to looking a bit icky before they actually mould after three to five days, depending on the weather, but If you've cooked that much of them that they are still sitting around days later, you'll probably be throwing them away because you are fed up of eating them not because they are off. I've left stuff like that out over winter for up to a week and it's been fine.

 

No claims to scientific evidence of being right :) This is just my experience.

 

 

Now, you lot have me thinking about housekeeping philosophy, if there is such thing? If this is too much of a hijack, tell me to spin off and get my own thread :)

 

I was just washing the dishes (no I don't sit here all day, despite appearances!) and used the last bit of detergent in the bottle. That, and this thread, led me to wondering why I even use the stuff. Detergent is used to cut through oil, so unless I've had a great fry up, I shouldn't need to use it, right? Except things get fried in the wok or the cast iron fry pan, neither of which I'm allowed to even speak the word detergent at, on pain of a lecture from my otherwise amiable dh. So why do I use it, other than habit?

 

Rosie

[Lovedtodeath]

I have wondered the same thing about using dish soap.

[Rosie_0801]

I have wondered the same thing about using dish soap.

 

Cool, so we have a new tip to add to the "What are your most anal money saving ideas" threads?

 

:)

Rosie

[Colleen in NS]

A Householder's Guide to the Universe is absolutely hands down the best book ever on the DIY stuff as radical worldchanging. It won't be out until October I think, though. (We got an ARC.) Householder's Guide has much practical information, but it's really a philosophical treatise.

 

Farm City by Novella Carpenter was another manifesto + practical insight kind of book.

 

Don't miss Food Not Lawns either, even if you don't have an interest in gardening.

 

I have no interest in growing my own food but I loved all of these books. They are glorious generalist types of books.

 

For pure theory, Radical Homemakers is considered the major book on the subject right now.

 

The Story of Stuff is mind altering. You'll want to watch the original twenty minute "Story of Stuff" movie. It's an antidote to the kool-aid.

 

Thanks for these book recs! I'm going to have a look at them. I have the Radical Homemakers one on hold at my library - Jane in NC rec'd. it to me awhile ago. And this thread has made me go put many other books on hold today; books on thrift, simplicity, and homemaking. I read a ton of these years ago, and need some reinspiration. This is a great thread. Thanks, OP, for starting it.

[Colleen in NS]

the rare meat and dairy that comes in the house is promptly cooked and eaten so doesn't require storage.

 

I just remembered something. My mother spent several months in Kyrgyzstan (sp?) and a couple of other places in that part of the world, and she learned to make yogurt and sour cream there, and it was never refrigerated. She tried to talk me into trying it that way, but I don't dare...What do you know about that, Rosie? I find your "alternative lifestyle" posts always so interesting.

 

OK, I managed to put three more of those rec'd. books on hold at my library, yay!

[Rosie_0801]

I just remembered something. My mother spent several months in Kyrgyzstan (sp?) and a couple of other places in that part of the world, and she learned to make yogurt and sour cream there, and it was never refrigerated. She tried to talk me into trying it that way, but I don't dare...What do you know about that, Rosie?

 

 

I don't really, but you could try asking Peela. She got a further in the journey of discovery with lacto-fermented foods than I did before swerving towards veganism. I did make kefir for a while, that originated in Central Asia and didn't need refrigerating for most of the year. That was like drinking yogurt, but clumped up like sour cream if left a bit longer.

 

That is so cool that your mum went to Kyrgyzstan. Central Asia seems so exotic to me. Since I can't afford to go there, I would like to read more about it, but for some reason the library is lacking. Really, did they need an entire wall of books on computer programming?

 

Rosie

[jazzyfizzle]

I also think that, despite being citizens of an industrial age, people persist in believing that their food is made on or near farms like the ones on farmville, by farmers. Yet there is a simultaneous conceit, an affected discomfort with dirt and blood and bugs and all the other minutiae of food production. Even if you're living the life you were going for (and I am, I'm just crabby about how my traditionalist dream has become a radical undertaking) you don't like doing it all the time. It's messy. It's hard. It's cold or hot or rainy and inconvenient. Good things, things worth doing, are hard. They take effort, and changed patterns of behavior...sustained ones. That's very much at odds with the consumer culture we're being sold, which says, "Replace it! Dispose of it! Get a new one! Get mashed potatoes someone else mashed for you!" None of which would stick if people were actually in the habit of making/doing themselves. It sticks because two adults in the household are working, and the extra income makes it affordable to live unsustainably, and when it doesn't, not only our lifestyles but our spending simply becomes unsustainable in support of the overall pattern.

 

 

:thumbup1:

[Melissa in Australia]

I have wondered the same thing about using dish soap.

 

I have gone through a time of no dish soap. It was awful , everything slowly got a greasy film over it.

[Peela]

the extra income makes it affordable to live unsustainably, and when it doesn't, not only our lifestyles but our spending simply becomes unsustainable in support of the overall pattern.

 

I think thats a very good point. A two income family culture is much more likely to be an unsustainable one. With two people working, we are more likely to compromise considerably and buy take out, processed foods, use day care, buy huge houses, use our money to buy copious entertainment, and basically get more and more out of touch with the healthy rhythms of life. I may be being romantic but in general terms, a one income family is more likely to have to do things themselves and in that way, not get so out of touch- with their kids, with each other, with the flow of life.

 

 

Peela, as far as being hard-nosed and not giving a darn what others think, like Rose said, I'm talking about the economic and overarching cultural issues, and not so much which individuals get my goat. If I were, I'd have a lot to say about two-income families who think we're cramping their style b/c we can't run off and do expensive out-of-pocket fun stuff with them/for them. Also, there's a sort of weird backlash that comes from working moms with internalized guilt who think they should be home, but don't want to be. I had to really struggle with a close friend about that for several years; it was bad to the point of enmeshment. All my choices were seen as a commentary on her choices. So I have a much thicker skin than I used to. ;) But I just got really crabby on asta's behalf.

 

 

 

I understand. To me its not so much wondering why y'all care what others think so much as having my eyes opened as to how far further along the (not so healthy) track your culture is than here in Australia...it doesnt look good. Here, although homeschooling often takes people by surprise and is an even less well known option and less popular than in America....being a SAHM is really not such a big deal at all. As Rosie said, it is pretty common until your kids go to school..then its part time work, and full time by highschool. But even so, no one really gives me any wierd energy that makes me bristle.

 

It disturbs me deeply that so many people have no idea from whence their food has really come. So many people are completely disconnected from the food they eat. Personally, I think the situation is hopeless. I've given up on the thought that the revolution will bring us all closer to the means of production. I don't think most people care, or want to care, about their food or who/what produces it.

 

 

I dont think it is hopeless at all, Audrey. There is a huge growth of farmers markets and people being interested in where their food comes, buying locally and organically...the organic food market is the fastest growing. I know this is the same in America because I get a lot of my info from there.

I think sometimes we can get down about the negative, but there are many, many, MANY people in rebellion to factory farming, who want to live in a more sustainable way. The movement is HUGE and it is in direct reaction to what you see as a hopeless situation.

Virtually every primary school that I pass nowadays has its own mini farm/vegetable gardens, fruit trees etc.

We have several weekend farmers markets within 20 kms.

I live in the burbs and I have an organic shop within 1 km of home.

I think there are LOTS of positive things happening in the world and it pays to stay focused on them, and support them, rather than on the hopelessness of how bad the situation is.

 

 

 

You know what's stopping you? The inflated commoditization of land. For a month's wages my dh's great-grandfather bought 160 acres of unbroken land. We're still farming it today. If it had not been for cheap land then, we certainly could never, ever afford land now. You've been cut out of the possibility of land by commercial and factory farming practices which has pushed an artificial premium on land.

 

I'm not even going to get into what commercial and factory farms have done to that land, because I'm already pretty bummed out by this whole discussion.

 

Suffice it say... you shouldn't have that stopping you, and more people should acknowledge the value of the labour and skill that sustains them.

 

But they don't, and that sucks.

 

Sure it sucks and its terrible, and I would love a farm myself and we cant afford even a suburban house. The market has gone too far for us to be able to buy.

However, my rented property is full of vegetable beds and chickens and my kitchen is full of sprouts, yoghurt, fresh eggs and home made food!

You can do a lot on a suburban block- even renting.

 

 

 

I just remembered something. My mother spent several months in Kyrgyzstan (sp?) and a couple of other places in that part of the world, and she learned to make yogurt and sour cream there, and it was never refrigerated. She tried to talk me into trying it that way, but I don't dare...What do you know about that, Rosie? I find your "alternative lifestyle" posts always so interesting.

 

 

Well, the art of using cultures to ferment foods is ancient because refrigeration is a very recent phenomenon. They used bacteria to ferment milk because they had to, or throw away the excess daily. Fermented milk can also be taken travelling. Throw some kefir grains in a goat skin of fresh milk and you have a very nutritious drink that wont go "off" even as it gets sourer.

When you buy pickled foods in a jar, it is pickled with chemicals and vinegar...not laco fermented like in old times. The lacto fermented stuff is acutally good for you and you can leave it out.

The use of bacteria as a perservative is a wonderful art and skill and not hard at all. You just have ot get over germ phobia and stop watching those ads that feed that obsession with getting rid of germs, which is just not a feasible things anyway- but it makes a lot of peopel a lot of money getting you to try.

 

Nourishing Traditions or WIld Fermentation are good books to learn more about it:

http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Fermentation-Flavor-Nutrition-Live-Culture/dp/1931498237/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278389699&sr=8-1

 

and this book is one that is relevant to parts of this thread too.

FUll Moon Feast: Food and the Hunger for Connection

http://www.amazon.com/Full-Moon-Feast-Hunger-Connection/dp/1933392002/ref=pd_sim_b_4

 

The fact that all these books exist suggest that there are a lot of people interested in this stuff.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Peela

[rwjx2khsmj]

Really? Is it that bad for many of you? Thats what is getting me about this thread- is it really so "wierd" to do what you are doing- homeschooling, SAHM etc? Or, does it just make you uncomfortable to be seen as just a bit different, and perhaps you are over sensitive to people's moderate judgements? I mostly feel people dont really care what other people do....people are too self obsessed for that. So I dont take it all very personally.

I am so used to not being normal or mainstream I am finding it hard to relate to those of you who find it such a big deal that you are no longer considered such. I am finding it hard to relate to why it would matter very much to you. But perhaps I have just become immune to people's judgements from my years of being on the outside of that whole career world anyway. Or perhaps the community I live in encourages individuality and walking your own path to the extent that I feel what I do actually inspires many, even if at the same time they might also have judgements.

 

I wouldn't say that my situation is bad. I love being a SAHM and home schooling. And I wouldn't say that everyone I talk to finds it odd or uncomfortable but I've been in more than one (many more than one) social situations where the mention of either is not met well or causes the other person to dismiss me quickly.

 

I think for me homeschooling, being a SAHM (home birth, breastfeeding, being a health advocate for my family, reading, questioning, researching...) is weird because the norm is double income, 2 or fewer children, daycare, activities until falling into bed exhausted, fully connected at all times, suburban home, eating out 3+ times weekly, grocery shopping for convenience food, doing what you've always done because it's easy and it's always been done this way.

 

I don't mind really and I'm certainly not going to stop making my own choices. I've made way too many choices that are out of the mainstream and I like where I am in life. If I were looking for widespread community support and popularity my choices would have been different.

 

I pray I'm inspirational. At the very least, I hope that what I do makes people take a closer look at why they do what they do.

[Murphy101]

I don't think it's about needing approval from others. For the most part I gave that fantasy up a decade or so ago.

 

But we are affected by disapproval. Strongly so. Because when it becomes prevalent in society, society tends to create ways tom discourage what it disapproves of.

 

For example, what I do is viewed as having no value. And even though it is economically unsound, the govt would rather give assistance to pay for anything I need EXCEPT staying home with my children, even though it amounts to nearly double the expense of paying a stranger to do the same thing for me. Now, a mother wants to go to work and the govt is willing to help her do so under the claim of giving her choice - great. But is it really a choice when the very same woman feels she doesn't have the option to be home? I really don't think it is.

 

I don't feel homesteading and making my own bread (which i don't do.) is morally better. But ther is zero argument that it can be healthier. In the cry for socialized health care in the country, people talk about health care being a right to have choices. Why is that a right but actually living as healthy as one can is being called a hobby? Study after study shows that healthy foods, a parent with the choice to be at home (even if they choose not do it) and so much more makes a tremendous impact on the health of our children, women, and family in general.

 

So yes, when I find society views women at home as having no value - that worries me. I'm not looking for approval. But it would be great if the system and society wasn't rigged against parents who want to stay home instead of pay strangers.

 

I really have no qualms with WOHMs. To me that isn't what this is about. It's about real choice. Not the choice to go to work. The choice to decide not to go to work.

 

And no my housecleaning does not take all day. I don't have Martha Stewart standards of what qualifies as clean enough and I do not have an attitude that I have to do it all, we all pitch in around here.

 

But yes, I do have a full time job that takes lots of energy and thought and time.

[Saille]

Great post, Martha.

[Lovedtodeath]

Great post, Martha.

:iagree:

[Joanne]

For example, what I do is viewed as having no value.

 

 

But yes, I do have a full time job that takes lots of energy and thought and time.

 

Martha, can you fill in what you mean by the first statement? By the context, I am going to guess you mean the government does not value your choice to stay at home, but I want to be sure before I respond.

[Impish]

I think part of what boggles my mind is the reaction that we must have a secret trust fund somewhere for me to be able to stay at home. I've had ppl sound offended that *we* managed to have a parent at home, while they had far more lucrative jobs and couldn't swing it. The idea that we sacrificed a LOT to manage it just didn't hit their radar at all.

 

And then when we switched places, Wolf at home during the day, starting his own business, me working 3-11 pm (so I could home school during the day while he did his thing)...well, you'd think all holy Hades had broken loose. I had ppl make several insulting comments about my dh 'allowing' his wife to support him.

 

Funny, it seems easier for folks to understand my being at home now, since I've become disabled its acceptable....although the pressure to quit home schooling has definitely stepped up! :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

I think part of what boggles my mind is the reaction that we must have a secret trust fund somewhere for me to be able to stay at home. I've had ppl sound offended that *we* managed to have a parent at home, while they had far more lucrative jobs and couldn't swing it. The idea that we sacrificed a LOT to manage it just didn't hit their radar at all.

:iagree:These same people spend considerably more than me on salon services, clothing, eating out, etc. and also have health benefits and 401K. I wish!

[Colleen in NS]

Well, the art of using cultures to ferment foods is ancient because refrigeration is a very recent phenomenon.

 

The use of bacteria as a perservative is a wonderful art and skill and not hard at all.

 

Nourishing Traditions or WIld Fermentation are good books to learn more about it:

http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Fermentation-Flavor-Nutrition-Live-Culture/dp/1931498237/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278389699&sr=8-1

 

and this book is one that is relevant to parts of this thread too.

FUll Moon Feast: Food and the Hunger for Connection

http://www.amazon.com/Full-Moon-Feast-Hunger-Connection/dp/1933392002/ref=pd_sim_b_4

 

The fact that all these books exist suggest that there are a lot of people interested in this stuff.

 

Wow, thank you Peela. I put a couple more of these books on hold at the library (one isn't in stock there) - there are TONS of holds on the books mentioned in this thread, so I'd have to agree with your last statement.

 

I've never read about the use of bacteria as a preservative - now I want to know more. I'll keep searching for some reading material. I have made my own yogurt for years, and tried cream cheese from it a few times, too. But I do that 1. because I like yogurt and I know it's healthy, and 2. to save money. I've never really thought about the preservative aspect of the chemistry part - just enough to perfect my technique, lol!

 

I guess I'm one of those who uses my fridge because that's the way it has been done all my life (keep the dairy in there, keep the juice in there, keep the cooked meats or uncooked meats that were thawing in there, the eggs, mayo, etc..). I was intrigued awhile ago when Rose mentioned her no-fridge kick, but never read anything about it afterwards. Now I can't wait to get all these books I've put on hold!

 

I might become weirder in other people's eyes too - my sister used to call me Granola Girl, lol! But oh well, my kids are mostly getting the upbringing/education I want them to have, we eat pretty healthily, I've learned lots about scratch cooking and efficiency in cooking and housekeeping over the years, and we've managed to scrape by on one very small income compared to those around us. The pressure isn't huge for me; homeschooling seems to be accepted in my part of Canada anyway, but I was around lots of homeschoolers in the States in the 80s when homeschooling was really weird, so at first it was a shock to hear acceptance when I started. I occasionally get slight flack for homeschooling, living frugally, scratch cooking, efficient organizing. I cower for about a day, question my worth, the worth of what I do, yada yada. Then I come here and find thousands of other like-minded people and gain confidence again.

 

I am just loving this thread!

[stripe]

I think part of what boggles my mind is the reaction that we must have a secret trust fund somewhere for me to be able to stay at home. I've had ppl sound offended that *we* managed to have a parent at home, while they had far more lucrative jobs and couldn't swing it. The idea that we sacrificed a LOT to manage it just didn't hit their radar at all.

I've had the same experience. Or people think there is some "secret" that we have (including the secret trust fund!) when I think the secret may be a lot less secretive than they imagine.

 

It is interesting that one can get tax and other credits, for paying someone else to babysit one's children, for example, but gets nothing for taking care of one's own. And a babysitter gets credit toward her social security, whereas a mother does not. I think a society with "family values" would not have it set up this way. According to Neil Gilbert, there is opposition on the part of certain women's groups (he cites the International Association of Feminist Economists) to anything like a child-care tax credit for those who take care of their own families.

Edited July 6, 2010 by stripe

[Saille]

Argh. My library system doesn't have it.

[Colleen in NS]

It is interesting that one can get tax and other credits, for paying someone else to babysit one's children, for example, but gets nothing for taking care of one's own. And a babysitter gets credit toward her social security, whereas a mother does not. I think a society with "family values" would not have it set up this way. According to Neil Gilbert, there is opposition on the part of certain women's groups (he cites the International Association of Feminist Economists) to anything like a child-care tax credit for those who take care of their own families.

 

I wonder if this is why Peela and Rosie say it's not that big of a deal in Australia, and why it doesn't seem so hard to me here in Canada, too. We have what's called the Child Tax Benefit here, which is income-level dependent - the lower the income, the higher the benefit. So in a way, I sort of look at it like getting paid to do my at-home job, even though it's not nearly as much as getting paid to do housecleaning, teaching, and cooking "professionally." It does help us, though. And I believe most families in Canada get this benefit. It's a tax-free payment. I don't think I've ever heard anyone look down on those who receive this, since it's very common. It's part of the fabric here.

[Saille]

Colleen, we have a child tax credit, but everyone gets it, regardless of employment status...WRT income, the joint-filing phase out starts at $110,000, so everyone I know gets it, working or not.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen, we have a child tax credit, but everyone gets it, regardless of employment status...WRT income, the joint-filing phase out starts at $110,000, so everyone I know gets it, working or not.

 

My U.S. tax forms are packed away (I'm American, too, and have to fill it out every year) so I can't look, but I have a feeling that credit is far less than what many people receive here in the CTB...any idea how much the credit is, say, for a family making $30,000/year?

[FaithManor]

I second the recommendation of the book, "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon. When a fellow heath seeker gave it to me as a present, I thought that maybe this would be one of those quack books with no research, no scientific data to back it up and instead I found a wealth of excellent information about feeding my family in time honored traditions that have been proven successful for millenia. But, I have been unable to completely forsake all of the bad stuff. DH is just a wonderbread, high fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated, convenience food, nut who thinks that sugar should be the basis of his food pyramid!LOL

 

But, he has come a long way and I truly believe that the only reason he has been healthy all these years is, a. good genetics & b. he eats copious amounts of fruits and vegetables.

 

I've gotten about 80% of the bad stuff out of here.

 

Oh, and my favorite pastry dough of all time is the fermented dough...everyone just raves about it when I make it and I notice that I don't feel bloated after eating a pie or pastry made with that but I do with traditional pastry dough.

 

Anyway, this book lead to our getting Mabel and making an agreement to board her at an organic dairy. I know have farm fresh raw milk to work with and we eat wonderful yogurt, cream cheese, etc. I have yet to make a good batch of sour cream or cottage cheese...I seem to be challenged in this department! As for Kefir, wonderful stuff but my family won't touch it...I keep hoping that I will light on to some flavoring that will help them get past the texture.

 

Wow, I guess I didn't say anything that pertained to the OP. So let me see, I haven't been to one of DH's office parties in years but I do think his boss once paid me an indirect compliment. He told an entire team of 150 people that DH and I home school and that they should make an opportunity to meet our kids because they were the best behaved most intelligent speaking kids he'd encountered in years! That felt pretty good!

 

I do think that I am, in general, having fewer uncomfortable conversations about being a SAHM than I used to...but my circle acquaintances is smaller and in our very conservative rural area, I think this is more accepted. I have met several women who would really like to be SAHM's but economics in Michigan currently make it barely possible for even two income families to keep going even if they don't have much debt and have made wise financial choices. Wages have dropped dramatically. So, I don't know if it will be possible for my dd or future dil's to have a choice.

 

Faith

[Renee in NC]

Colleen, we have a child tax credit, but everyone gets it, regardless of employment status...WRT income, the joint-filing phase out starts at $110,000, so everyone I know gets it, working or not.

 

The tax credit we have is not anywhere near the level of the Child Tax Benefit in Canada. Ours is $1000 per year per child. Depending on income, their's can be more than that per month.

[Renee in NC]

My U.S. tax forms are packed away (I'm American, too, and have to fill it out every year) so I can't look, but I have a feeling that credit is far less than what many people receive here in the CTB...any idea how much the credit is, say, for a family making $30,000/year?

 

Here it depends on the number of children, but I did a Child Benefit calculator at one point to see what our family would get (just as an idea) and ours was less than 25% of Canada's. Now, Canada doesn't have food stamps, but even factoring that in, Canada's benefit was more than twice the comparable programs in the US. Here in the US, though, there is a stigma attached to many programs.

[Saille]

My U.S. tax forms are packed away (I'm American, too, and have to fill it out every year) so I can't look, but I have a feeling that credit is far less than what many people receive here in the CTB...any idea how much the credit is, say, for a family making $30,000/year?

 

Up to 1,000 per child, unless your exemptions/credits exceed what you paid in.

[Colleen in NS]

Ours is $1000 per year per child. Depending on income, their's can be more than that per month.

 

Well, not quite - not per child per month, anyway.

 

OK, so am I correct in understanding (I did some searching) that the U.S. CTC is up to $1000/child/year, up to $110,000 income/year?

 

Here are some figures about the Canada CTB for July 2010-June 2011, based on ONE child (figures to up with each child, but not proportionately after the 3rd or 4th child I think.

 

income: $100,000/year

CTB: $167.28/year

 

income: $50,000/year

CTB: $1167.36/year

 

income: $30,000/year

CTB: $2686.20/year

 

income: $10,000/year

CTB: $3880.92/year

 

We also have something fairly new called the Universal Child Care Benefit - non-income dependent, I think, and you get a $100 monthly payment for every child under the age of 6. Now, this is taxable (and again, the taxes would depend on your family income), I think, but still, it's a form of payment for taking care of your kids.

 

Here in the US, though, there is a stigma attached to many programs.

 

Here, I think there is a stigma attached to social assistance (welfare in the States) programs (which I think do hand out food vouchers at times), but the CTB and UCCB are not part of that.

 

So anyway, I guess I see Canada's as a family-friendly system compared to the CTC in the States. So it made me wonder if Australia had something similar, because of Peela's and Rosie's relaxed posts. I think it IS frustrating for some of those living in the States, to have so much around you pulling you down in your hard work. We parents work hard!! And I like to feel valued in what I do, too!

Edited July 6, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[Renee in NC]

Colleen, the calculator I used showed for my family, with the ages of my dc and our current income, we would get something like $2400 a month. That's a lot more than you are saying, so the calculator must have been wrong. When I re-figured using these numbers, it was more in line with the tax credits + food stamps.

[Colleen in NS]

 

Here are some figures about the Canada CTB for July 2010-June 2011, based on ONE child (figures to up with each child, but not proportionately after the 3rd or 4th child I think.

 

Colleen, the calculator I used showed for my family, with the ages of my dc and our current income, we would get something like $2400 a month. That's a lot more than you are saying, so the calculator must have been wrong. When I re-figured using these numbers, it was more in line with the tax credits + food stamps.

 

Does my bolding help? If you have more than one child, you'd get more than what I listed.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen, the calculator I used showed for my family, with the ages of my dc and our current income, we would get something like $2400 a month. That's a lot more than you are saying, so the calculator must have been wrong. When I re-figured using these numbers, it was more in line with the tax credits + food stamps.

 

Here is the calculator I used. And this is the summary I put in as a sample. That's over $20,000 in child-raising/teaching/housekeeping benefits per year!! :D

 

(hope I'm not going too far off the thread....)

 

EDIT: OK, guess you can't use those links. Try this one, click "I accept" and plug in Nova Scotia, married, 7 kids under 18, and $30,000 yearly income.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[KathyBC]

Look at most commercials for cleaning products and ask yourself, "Based on what I see in the commercial, what do I think the average size of this commercial-person's house is?" The commercial is presenting you with a carefully calculated "norm." It wants to present itself as a representative American middle-class house.

 

:iagree: I've watched those ads and wondered how many of us really have a $50,000 kitchen.

 

We very powerfully want to be like everyone else in our socioeconomic group. We really do have a strong urge to keep up with the Joneses. To homeschool, to have only one income, resists the trend of the last fifty to sixty years' worth of American economic growth. It cuts your income in half or more. Speaking as a homeschooler, I understand very well what that means: we just do not have the house, the house space, or the stuff that many of my friends of equal "class" have or expect to have. Oh, well. That's the cost of homeschooling and it was worth it to pay.

 

 

Again, I strongly agree. While I deeply believe our family is paying a cost worth paying, the part of me that so longs to keep up struggles with grief after various functions with family and friends. I should not feel ashamed for having less, but do.

 

Very thoughtful dissertation, well said. :)

[Renee in NC]

Here is the calculator I used. And this is the summary I put in as a sample. That's over $20,000 in child-raising/teaching/housekeeping benefits per year!! :D

 

(hope I'm not going too far off the thread....)

 

EDIT: OK, guess you can't use those links. Try this one, click "I accept" and plug in Nova Scotia, married, 7 kids under 18, and $30,000 yearly income.

 

Used the calculator again (it was the same one) and came up with $1615 per month (for Nova Scotia since that is where you live.) That is more than the tax credits (including EIC) and food stamps combined, but not by a huge amount. Food stamps would be considered "welfare" though, so not really an apples to apples comparison.

 

ETA: Thanks for bringing this up, BTW, as it cleared up the questions I had about it.

[angela in ohio]

The $1,000 per child (U.S. CTC) is a good estimate, but there is more to the story. There is also an amount of exemption per person, including your dependent children, and the value of that depends on your income. There is also an EIC (earned income credit) that depends in part on the number of children you have. As pps mentioned, the $1,000 can also vary based on your tax liability, your other credits, and your income. The ony way to truly tell how much your dc are "worth" on your taxes would be to complete them both with and without them and campare those two figures.

[Renee in NC]

The $1,000 per child (U.S. CTC) is a good estimate, but there is more to the story. There is also an amount of exemption per person, including your dependent children, and the value of that depends on your income. There is also an EIC (earned income credit) that depends in part on the number of children you have. As pps mentioned, the $1,000 can also vary based on your tax liability, your other credits, and your income. The ony way to truly tell how much your dc are "worth" on your taxes would be to complete them both with and without them and campare those two figures.

 

Very true. Does Canada have a tax exemption for children?