12 yo who doesn't know her times tables?

[jenniferlee]

We've used times tales and she seemed to have them down pretty good, but here we are a couple of years down the line and she's still adding 18 and 18 on paper to see what 4 x 9 is:confused:

 

Where did we go wrong and what do I do now? FWIW, she completed LOF fractions without difficulty and is now doing some fractions review with math mammoth and doing fine. She says she loves long division, likes math in general, but she is always asking me what something times something is - I always say "you should know that, figure it out" but she's still asking or doing the add it up method. clearly she just doesn't have them down.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Jen

[Heather in VA]

Yep - it happens. I am a big proponent of waiting to learn the times tables until the student clearly has concepts understood. Some kids just pick them up during that time. Some don't. Since she doesn't, just take a couple of weeks of doing nothing in math but working on the tables. She'll have them in no time.

 

Nothing to stress about.

 

Heather

[5forMe]

:lurk5:

 

My son will be 13 next month. We struggle with the same thing. Sometimes he has them down and then he'll go through a spell where he struggles with them again. He has no problem understanding math concepts, just struggles with the memorization.

 

I will be watching this thread for suggestions.

[MIch elle]

flash cards and skip counting EVERYDAY

[Verity]

My 11 year old was starting fractions and decimals in his previous math courses (ps and AO SOS) but I found him struggling to get correct answers and realized that he didn't really have his times tables down (even though he was getting A's in math at ps). This year I backtracked and we did MUS Gamma which teaches only multiplication. The dvd's with Mr. Deem taught him some neat multiplication "tricks" and he finally got the full concepts down. I tried Times Tales and they really didn't do alot for my student (I'm going to try again this upcoming year with my upcoming 3rd grader). For us it was repetition, repetition, teaching to mastery! Towards the end when he was still struggling with the harder numbers (6x7-9, 8x7-9) I would sometimes allow him to use his multiplication chart for problems that were testing his understanding of the content (for instance, word problems) but still required him to do the math for the simple ___x___= ____.

 

Finally in the last few weeks I see that he seems to have absorbed the math. Sometimes it takes him a few moments but he has it. Because my son has high functioning autism I had finally accepted that he may not ever have the tt memorized but I do think he does have the concept understood and knows his tt pretty darn well. For us we had to just keep going, not pushing and fighting about it but just calmly going. Stop when it's too much and come back the next day.

 

Maybe this summer would be a good time to get your dd a mastery program and focus on that as a goal?

[Heather in WI]

I would start flash cards and timed math sheets every day tacked onto the beginning of your regular math lesson. It shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes daily. My 2nd and 4th grader have them down cold due to this method.

[tangomoon]

If you do flashcards, use the trick of putting any missed problems only a couple cards back instead of at the very back of the stack. Then they get more practice on them right away. :)

[dsmith]

If she is doing well except for this, maybe you could let her use a printed multiplication table so that she could keep moving forward, while doing 5 -10 minutes of drill daily? It took ds quite a while to get his addition and subtraction facts down, but we kept drilling while moving forward, and he eventually started getting them down. He is using Timez Attack for multiplication and he really loves it, and I have a table printed for him that he is using less and less.

[KinderSafari]

Each of our kids does this 3x a week for 15 minutes.

 

My kids were all terrible at any simple tables. This program has all levels (or we bought the one with all levels) and the kids are timed against their previous times and race to beat them.

 

All of them have greatly improved over the last 6 months.

 

My 4th grader can do complicated fractions problems quickly in his head and I credit it to this program.

 

When the basics are automatic, the rest just seems to be so much simpler.

[mommy4ever]

My 11 yo has struggle with hers too. What really helps is games, for her, so it's not so formal and 'work'.

 

We use decks of cards with no face card, tossing dice, education stores have the funky dice with more than 6 sides. There is a game online Timez Attack, that she LOVES. Great graphics. Plus we find several other little games that help.

 

DD11 saw us doing an addition game with dd6, and she was a little out of sorts, so we found some. She loves to do it, and the multiplication facts are coming along really nice!

[Tutor]

If she is doing well except for this, maybe you could let her use a printed multiplication table so that she could keep moving forward, while doing 5 -10 minutes of drill daily?

 

This is what I have done. We are using Quarter Mile Math for fact review, and they all like doing it, but the facts just haven't stuck yet. I had a really hard time learning math facts as a kid and just figured it out over time (having to calculate discounts and compare grocery sales on the fly will do that for you :D ). However, before I reached this point I successfully completed a BS in biology and a MFS in Forensic Science. Both are very math heavy and counting on my fingers and using a calculator may have slowed me down a bit, but it didn't kill me. :tongue_smilie: I've decided to just not sweat it.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I recommend a skip counting CD and Calculadders

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

 

Timez Attack might be a good idea also!

[jewellsmommy]

Have you taught any of the tricks used to memorize the tables? I was surprised to learn that my dh had not learned the 9 trick or the 11 trick. If your dc knows addition very well then this is helpful. I still multiply this way.

 

9x #. Take the #and go 1 down, then add to make 9.

 

 

ex) 9x8 Take 1 down from 8 =7. & plus 2 is 9 so the answer to 9x8 is 72.

9x6, 1 down is 5, 5+4 is 9 so the answer is 54

 

 

Plus, I wouldn't worry too much. As life goes on she will get it. Drill while you wait in lines or while making dinner or in the car. It will come! We are still trying to get the addition facts down!

[Guest ToGMom]

My 11 year old was starting fractions and decimals in his previous math courses (ps and AO SOS) but I found him struggling to get correct answers and realized that he didn't really have his times tables down (even though he was getting A's in math at ps). This year I backtracked and we did MUS Gamma which teaches only multiplication. The dvd's with Mr. Demme taught him some neat multiplication "tricks" and he finally got the full concepts down. ... For us it was repetition, repetition, teaching to mastery! Towards the end when he was still struggling with the harder numbers (6x7-9, 8x7-9) I would sometimes allow him to use his multiplication chart for problems that were testing his understanding of the content (for instance, word problems) but still required him to do the math for the simple ___x___= ____.

 

...

 

Maybe this summer would be a good time to get your dd a mastery program and focus on that as a goal?

 

:iagree: MUS is awesome...especially the FREE online drill... :) We use that everyday before the "regular lesson".

[jenniferlee]

well, it is always so nice to hear that you are not the only one:001_smile:

there are lots of great ideas here. I guess just reviewing daily for a while would be profitable. I'm afraid she's going to buck against having to "go back" , but clearly it would make her other work so much easier not having to stop and figure these out all the time.

I remember those timed sheets from 3rd grade with 100 problems on them and just crying because it seemed so hard. But it really did work - I have always known my TT very well and still do.

 

Thanks everyone,

Jen

[Krista in LA]

My ds12 struggles with it too and in his case, teaching him to skip count is actually part of the problem. Instead of taking the time to memorize them, he skip counts to get the answer. We have tried every type of drill alone or in combination with other types and so far what has helped the most is paying the $20/month for Aleks - he still doesn't have them down as well as I'd like, but there has been improvement this year.

[Pam Wilhelm]

MUS and Math-It. Both, used together, worked for my 12 year old daughter. I won't say she's a genius at it now....but it comes soooo much easier and quicker for her now.

[birchbark]

http://www.timestales.com/

 

Oops, I see you already tried it. :(

Edited May 8, 2010 by birchbark

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

flash cards and skip counting EVERYDAY

 

:iagree:

 

This site is also helpful:

 

http://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/math-trainer-multiply.html

 

 

I also taught my ds that one way to figure out multiplying by 9 was to first multiply by 10 and subtract the other factor once and whola:001_smile:

 

I have told my son to use multiples of 2, 5, and 10 as anchors to help figure out the rest of the times tables.

 

I agree with the skip counting. We used a blank 100 centimeter square grid to skip count. I had ds start at any number between 1-10 and fill out the grid by skip counting. I have also had practice with the trainer about 5-10 minutes a day with success.

 

Lastly, his curricula and myself has given him lots of practice problems.

[Susan in KY]

 

Flashmaster, baby. That's where it's at.

[TracyR]

Not sure. I need to go over the times tables again with my girls. I find the math drill sheets work well for them. I get them off of www.math-drills.com

[Rosie_0801]

I tripped over this yesterday. It sounds fairly painless: http://www.thehomeschoolmagazine.com/Homeschool_Reviews/2585.php

 

Rosie

[nmoira]

 

We've used times tales and she seemed to have them down pretty good, but here we are a couple of years down the line and she's still adding 18 and 18 on paper to see what 4 x 9 is:confused:

This is of greater concern to me than the fact that she's weak with her times tables. Can she do any mental two-digit addition and subtraction? Edited May 8, 2010 by nmoira
spelling

[Lori D.]

We've used times tales and she seemed to have them down pretty good, but here we are a couple of years down the line and she's still adding 18 and 18 on paper to see what 4 x 9 is:confused:

 

Where did we go wrong and what do I do now? FWIW, she completed LOF fractions without difficulty and is now doing some fractions review with math mammoth and doing fine. She says she loves long division, likes math in general, but she is always asking me what something times something is - I always say "you should know that, figure it out" but she's still asking or doing the add it up method. clearly she just doesn't have them down.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Jen

 

 

My first reaction was what a clever work-around your DD found! :) Rather than this being a matter of "where did we go wrong," it sounds like you have provided her with the tools and the out-of-the-box math program that has helped her figure out ways to to get to the answer she needs. It may not be the fastest way. It may not be the way most people use. But it works and she understands the math!

 

I would like to add that there are many people -- usually very bright people -- who just canNOT memorize certain things, such as saying the entire alphabet in order, or math facts. I have a very dear friend who was a straight A student all through school and a wonderful musician, but who just could NOT memorize the times tables. She finally had to learn times table songs, and just rapidly run through the song in her head to get to the answer.

 

Our younger DS was probably between 12-14yo before he could finally get a handle on the times tables. For him, it was a combination of skip-counting songs (but ESP. helpful were the Schoolhouse Rock: Math songs); memorizing a few facts with visual stories (similar to the Times Tales book concept); pointing out the "tricks" of certain numbers such as multiplying by 5, the answer always ends in 0 or 5); and visual practice with triangle flashcards, which helps in 2 ways:

1. allows you to visually see the relationship between the numbers as a fact family

2. condenses FOUR math facts into ONE fact family

 

For example: in the three corners of the triangle card, you have 6, 7, 42. That gives you the 4 math facts of:

6x7 = 42

7x6 = 42

42/7 = 6

42/6 = 7

 

And very important: start your triangle flashcard practice by NOT COVERING up any numbers. Ask, "what is 6x7?" Let her SEE that it is 42, and have her SAY "6x7 is 42". Then ask the related math facts. "What is 7x6?" "What is 42 divided by 6?" "What is 42 divided by 7?" Just work with one set of numbers (for example, all the 8s) for a few days or a week doing that. Then the following week, start covering one number on the triangle card at a time and ask the math fact that would require the covered number as the answer. Then cover a different number on that card, and repeat.

 

In the end, while it does make life easier to have memorized the times tables, if your student can't, better to help your student find some helpful work-arounds! BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

PS

Just from our experience with our own math facts struggler -- programs that do "drill and kill" or stopping all other math or going back did NOT help at ALL -- in fact, created massive meltdowns. DS had a learning disability specifically with the math facts, and stopping all other math until he "got" math facts would have meant we would have done NO MATH for several YEARS! His brain was just not wired and matured in that area to "get" math facts. I don't know if that is the case with your DD, but we found doing 1 Schoolhouse Rock song per week each day (2-3 minutes) and working with one 12-number set of triangle math flashcards each day (2-3 minutes), doing one before the math lesson and the other after the math lesson was PLENTY. Again, that is just our experience. Warmest regards, Lori

Edited May 8, 2010 by Lori D.

[jenniferlee]

moira,

yes, that does concern me as well. (the paper adding) this girl is strange to me in so many ways! she seems to hate learning shortcuts. I keep trying to show her how to do things quicker (like add in her head) and she always says no, she just likes to write it down. My 10yods, on the other hand won't write ANYTHING down, he always does his work in his head:001_smile: and does a great job too, I should add.

kids are so funny and different.

I know she can do some computation mentally, because she bakes all the time and is constantly adjusting recipes to fit our larger family. Seems to have no problem changing fractions in her head. But she's motivated to do it - loves to cook...

 

Lori-

thanks for the encouragement and ideas. She actually asked me the other day if we could get some schoolhouse rock videos from the library - its' been a few years since we've seen them. So maybe that would be a good idea.

Also - I have some of those triangle flashcards- never used them.

 

Maybe I could pay her to learn her times tables:D Money is a huge motivator around here.

 

Jen

[fivetails]

My dd13 still doesn't have all her times tables memorized ~ and I'm fine with that... she *understands* multiplication, she just doesn't have all those instant memorized answers. :)

 

We've done timed drills, flashcards, timez attack game, times table music, you name it...and none of them helped much at all. :tongue_smilie:

 

So.. I gave her a laminated times table chart that she can use when she's blanked on a specific answer - and I've noticed that she's starting to remember more of them that way then she did when I was drilling the poor kid to bits. ;)

 

[it also sped her up - she was moving slowly through her math because her calculations were slowwww sometimes, even though her understanding of the material was good]

 

Sure, there are times [haha] that she finds herself needing to figure something out without her chart - and when she hits that, she tends to use something else... much like the OP's daughter does 18+18 in place of 9X4! That's a GOOD thing :D - it shows an understanding of what's taking place there. At some point, the specific equation 9X4=36 will stick, but in the meantime I'm happy to see understanding & creativity at work.

[Dina in Oklahoma]

Hi!

 

Many great suggestions but would also recommend music based learning. My DD also struggled with arithmatic facts until we put it to music.

 

We used a DVD; double reinforcement with audio and visual. There are many products out there such as Multiplication Rock by Rock and learn. We also use many of the Troxel CDs for geography and history as well as Lyrical Science. Each of these has been a GREAT help for her!

 

Best Wishes

 

Dina :001_smile: