What's Going on at a Nearby Elementary School

[Karen FL]

I learned that my sister is taking my 9 y/o nephew out of their assigned public school and switching him to a charter school this coming Monday. She discovered that he didn't know his time tables well. Unfortunately, he is doing division now. Of course, it's difficult to do division if you don't know your times tables well. My sister has spent this winter break doing times tables over the winter break and he knows them now.

Things came to a head when my nephew showed her their teacher's way of doing division.

Let me try to explain. If you have a problem such as 45/15=X, you draw three circles. You make a mark for each number until you get to 45. Once you reach 45 you count the number of marks in each circle and that's your answer.

Isn't that sad? Can you imagine how long it would take him to do a simple page of division homework?

I think the lady is probably not a teacher at all. She probably purchased her credentials.

I really feel sorry for the other children in the class. The school is filled with immigrants. Typically, this population has parents who don't speak English well, have little education, and they work 2-3 jobs. :(

On my worst day homeschooling, I can say with confidence that I am doing a better job than this *teacher*.

Sigh.

[Alenee]

You can probably bet money that it really wasn't the teacher, but the curriculum. I've seen some poor excuses for math curricula in the past five years that makes even the most pro public schoolers shake their heads. :glare:

[Heather in AL]

I think it's happening everywhere.

 

My dd was in 3rd grade at a local "top notch" PS and was struggling with her multiplication tables. This school's policy was to only send classwork home once a week, and it was AFTER test day, so any problem areas weren't addressed in time to help with testing. By the time we realized dd was having troubles, it was pretty hard to fix.

 

This all occurred at the same time as the 'cram for the test' (ten days of standardized testing) which began not long after Christmas break, but before spring break. The teacher would send home worksheets for the kids to complete, but no instructions on what to do. Typically, the instructions on the sheet gave NO hint as to what the answer should look like (ex. ratios can be written with a colon, as a fraction, or with the word "to" as in '5 to 6', so we had NO idea how to help dd with those! There were copious tears shed for those several weeks).

 

Dd completed 3rd grade 'knowing' her multiplication tables up through the 3s (her entire class was at that level), while other 3rd grade classes in the same school had done their entire set~~imagine the 'review' needed in 4th grade! We decided to homeschool one week after school let out for the summer. We worked on and off through the summer on her tables, but she never got the 'light bulb' moment until we played Yahtzee. Suddenly, she realized that three 6 dice meant 3x6 and in two weeks (and more dice purchased!) she had her tables down pat. It was at that moment that I was completely sold on homeschooling and vowed to teach my kids at home as long as I could (we are in our 4th year of hs now).

 

I really feel bad for the kids in PS who have no alternatives than to sit with these 'teachers'. In the four years my dd was in school (K-3), she had ONE good teacher.... the others were awful.... two were tenured and just waiting to retire, and the other was more interested in dscussing her new FUBU clothes with the PE teacher and showing off her gold plated front tooth with her initial carved in it. My dd began K reading on a first grade level and, because of stupid reading rules, she finished 3rd grade 'officially' reading on a second grade level, yet at home she was reading Harry Potter, etc.

 

When people ask me 'why do you homeschool?' my reply is usually "how much time do you have?"

 

I'm glad your sister found a charter school. I hope it works for your nephew.

[angela in ohio]

There are two problems there:

 

(1.) That's the new way of teaching math. And it's not just public schools; there are homeschoolers teaching math like that, too. Dh fought it when he was a teacher. No math books, students discover how to do math, etc., etc.

 

(2.) Teacher training is abysmal. You can get a degree in business and have to take more math than a person teaching math to children. If you saw what we see in dh's graduate education classes, you would cry for the state of public schools. There are some great teachers, but they are great becuase they go above and beyond.

[Karen FL]

Thank you for these enlightening posts. I had no idea...

Rafe Esquith In his book *Teach Like Your Hair is on Fire* writes about the terrible reading curriculum that changes annually in his school district. Esquith is confident and successful enough to just throw it out and ignore it. I can see how most teachers wouldn't have the courage to do that though.

Well, this gives me great appreciation for the opportunity I have to educate our children at home. I'm looking forward to the remainder of our school year.

[Lilymax]

It's interesting to read that so many have had issues with kids not learning their multiplication tables. I pulled DS1 out of a private school in the middle of third grade, and only after discovered that he knew zip about multiplication. How did I not realize this while he was in school? He kept getting A's in math and never brought home math homework.

 

He did bring home lots of newsletters from the teacher that contained obvious grammatical and spelling errors. :001_huh: In retrospect, that should've made me get more involved. Then I might've known about the math.

 

It took us a year to catch him up, but now he's doing great at home. I've never looked back!

[lgm]

Low expectations and uninterested in education populations seem to be everywhere..I had to start afterschooling b/c one my sons was put in a fully included 3rd grade class. He had started multiplication with 1,2,5,10s in 2nd grade, but this class saved multiplication for the last three weeks of school, teaching it with finger tricks only. Still scratchin' my head as to how memorizing finger tricks are easier than the real thing, especially for children who are MR. The head classroom teacher was an expert math teacher - but she was not in charge of the class - the admin was and she was told what to do and how and when to do it, as well as with what mat'ls and techniques. She was not allowed to ability group. Her union cannot protect her from nonrenewal if she is judged to be insubordinate, so she had to do what she was told.

 

Thankfully NCLB came in and administrative heads rolled...the district now has to actually teach the grade level material in every single classrom designated to be that grade, with the exception of Sped multigrade. They still don't teach the full grade level course, but at least they aren't years behind as they were in the fully included classrooms.

 

Teachers here charge $40 an hour for tutoring...people who don't have the time take them up on it so that the child gets the full grade level course..which was offered in the nonincluded classes just 5 years ago. Without that background, the child will not make the honors cut in 7th. Honors 7th here is regular pre-algebra...Dolciani is a step up.

Edited January 1, 2010 by lgm

[happyhomemaker25]

I remember my second grader coming home and doing her addition homework. She would bonk herself in the head and then add up with her fingers. Bonking yourself in the head was the way she was taught to put the big number in her head. :001_huh:

[brightside]

It's interesting to read that so many have had issues with kids not learning their multiplication tables. I pulled DS1 out of a private school in the middle of third grade, and only after discovered that he knew zip about multiplication. How did I not realize this while he was in school? He kept getting A's in math and never brought home math homework.

 

 

 

 

Oh my goodness, I thought this was an isolated incident with my son. He always made A's in math but does not know his math facts. :001_huh:

[Tree House Academy]

My son had a great teacher in 3rd grade, but he came home and didn't know his times tables well at all. In 4th grade, the school's method of dealing with this was to tape a "cheat sheet" to each student's desk...that way, they wouldn't have to think about it. Now, how sad is that???

[Perry]

That is typical reform math instruction- Everyday Math, TERC, Trailblazers, etc.

 

It's why we started homeschooling.

 

Has she checked what curriculum the charter school is using? It may not be any better. Sorry.

[Stacie]

I learned that my sister is taking my 9 y/o nephew out of their assigned public school and switching him to a charter school this coming Monday. She discovered that he didn't know his time tables well. Unfortunately, he is doing division now. Of course, it's difficult to do division if you don't know your times tables well. My sister has spent this winter break doing times tables over the winter break and he knows them now.

Things came to a head when my nephew showed her their teacher's way of doing division.

Let me try to explain. If you have a problem such as 45/15=X, you draw three circles. You make a mark for each number until you get to 45. Once you reach 45 you count the number of marks in each circle and that's your answer.

Isn't that sad? Can you imagine how long it would take him to do a simple page of division homework?

I think the lady is probably not a teacher at all. She probably purchased her credentials.

I really feel sorry for the other children in the class. The school is filled with immigrants. Typically, this population has parents who don't speak English well, have little education, and they work 2-3 jobs. :(

On my worst day homeschooling, I can say with confidence that I am doing a better job than this *teacher*.

Sigh.

 

I'm confused about this teaching method, but not for the reasons here. If, in the above example, the student knows to draw three circles, wouldn't he already know the answer is three? If he is trying to figure out the answer then he wouldn't know how many circles, correct?

 

I see this circles/marks as a possible teaching aid to explain what the premise is behind division. However, it should not be taught as a means to solve the problem. The visual is a good way to teach the concept of division and to help some children grasp the idea of dividing. If this is done after the first day or two of division then then teacher doesn't understand the process of teaching math.

[Perry]

I'm confused about this teaching method, but not for the reasons here. If, in the above example, the student knows to draw three circles, wouldn't he already know the answer is three? If he is trying to figure out the answer then he wouldn't know how many circles, correct?

 

I see this circles/marks as a possible teaching aid to explain what the premise is behind division. However, it should not be taught as a means to solve the problem. The visual is a good way to teach the concept of division and to help some children grasp the idea of dividing. If this is done after the first day or two of division then then teacher doesn't understand the process of teaching math.

You're right; they would draw 15 circles.

[prairie rose]

I'm confused about this teaching method, but not for the reasons here. If, in the above example, the student knows to draw three circles, wouldn't he already know the answer is three? If he is trying to figure out the answer then he wouldn't know how many circles, correct?

 

The number of circles would be the divisor, the total number of tally marks would be the dividend and the quotient would be the number of tally marks in one circle, so, no, you would not have to know the answer to know the number of circles.

 

However I don't see how this is such a horrible thing. How is it any different from showing the concept of division by having them separate objects into groups? I showed my son the concept using a similar method. He doesn't use this to solve every problem. He very quickly figured out that it's much easier to work division as multiplication in reverse. He's not completely solid on his math facts either but he can usually figure it out. I don't see anything wrong with letting them figure it out pictorally if it helps. If teaching it pictorally is all wrong, how should it be taught? Just curious.

[sassenach]

The number of circles would be the divisor, the total number of tally marks would be the dividend and the quotient would be the number of tally marks in one circle, so, no, you would not have to know the answer to know the number of circles.

 

However I don't see how this is such a horrible thing. How is it any different from showing the concept of division by having them separate objects into groups? I showed my son the concept using a similar method. He doesn't use this to solve every problem. He very quickly figured out that it's much easier to work division as multiplication in reverse. He's not completely solid on his math facts either but he can usually figure it out. I don't see anything wrong with letting them figure it out pictorally if it helps. If teaching it pictorally is all wrong, how should it be taught? Just curious.

 

The problem isn't the use of pictures to teach the concept, the problem is the reliance on pictures to solve the problems. The pictures (or manipulatives) are tools to get the concept across, but you still need to cross the bridge into using the standard algorithms to solve the equations. A child who doesn't know his times table is going to have a hell of a time getting to a place where he doesn't need the pictures.

 

New math was our homeschooling inspiration and it came to a head in 3rd grade as well. My A student not only didn't know her times tables, she didn't understand the algorithm at all. I had to rehab multiplication from the beginning the summer after her 3rd grade year.

[kalanamak]

If you have a problem such as 45/15=X, you draw three circles. You make a mark for each number until you get to 45. Once you reach 45 you count the number of marks in each circle and that's your answer.

Isn't that sad? Can you imagine how long it would take him to do a simple page of division homework? .

 

It is terrible. 9/3 for a 4 or 5 year old is fun with bowls and pebbles, but not at that number and age!!

[SW in IL]

how teaching multiplication that way could turn into a problem. DS still struggles with multiplication and division, though we've shown him the correlation between the two. We're now teaching him how to "picture" the problem in his head... In the case of the original problem, I'd encourage him to think of 15 hungry teenage boys splitting 45 slices of pizza or 15 friends at a party sharing 45 cookies. When put that way, he can easily figure out the answer (even if the problem has a remainder). But I see where he's going to have problems in the future.

 

He was taught multiplication and division using Singapore math and a couple of workbooks of story problems (the only way he's ever been able to really understand math -- he has to "see" the real world applications). But now that he's used to having things presented in that way, we can't get him to just memorize the times tables... He still has to picture so many groups of so many in his head and when he's doing 2 and 3 digit multiplication, that doesn't work... As he puts it... "I can't fit that many things in my head."

 

Sue

[Peri]

Yeah this was also my problem with my dd in the ps system.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

A child who doesn't know his times table is going to have a hell of a time getting to a place where he doesn't need the pictures.

 

Well, neither my sister nor I know our time tables. She, because she switched schools and missed the teaching of it. And I because I was too lazy.

Both of us are engineers, she has a Masters and I think a phD. I started my Masters in robotics but never finished it. I worked in 3D computer imagery as a programmer. I think not knowing our time tables did not slow us down and did not impede us at all.

 

Oh, and I know plenty of people like this too. It seems those who do know their time tables end up in something else than engineering and sciences (I was a Physics student before switching to engineering). No one cared about time tables, I can tell you that!

 

My main problem with the example cited above (the circles and marks within the circle) is that the explanation does not pan out when you get to fractions. What would half a circle look like in 10 / 0.5 ? Why do you get a bigger number when it's a division? It's teaching the kids the wrong concept! Division is *not* separating items into groups. That's only *one* of the potential applications of divisions.

[Stacie]

The number of circles would be the divisor, the total number of tally marks would be the dividend and the quotient would be the number of tally marks in one circle, so, no, you would not have to know the answer to know the number of circles.

 

 

In this example 45 is the dividend, 15 is the divisor, and you are solving for the quotient (number inside each circle). If you know to draw three circles, you already know the quotient. I think the op has the problem backward, as Perry indicated as well, and to properly solve the problem there should be 15 circles with three marks in each.

 

If you have a problem such as 45/15=X, you draw three circles. You make a mark for each number until you get to 45. Once you reach 45 you count the number of marks in each circle and that's your answer.

 

 

Per the first example, the number of marks in each circle is 15, so as she worded it the solution is 45/15=15.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Stacie

[sassenach]

Well, neither my sister nor I know our time tables. She, because she switched schools and missed the teaching of it. And I because I was too lazy.

Both of us are engineers, she has a Masters and I think a phD. I started my Masters in robotics but never finished it. I worked in 3D computer imagery as a programmer. I think not knowing our time tables did not slow us down and did not impede us at all.

 

Oh, and I know plenty of people like this too. It seems those who do know their time tables end up in something else than engineering and sciences (I was a Physics student before switching to engineering). No one cared about time tables, I can tell you that!

 

My main problem with the example cited above (the circles and marks within the circle) is that the explanation does not pan out when you get to fractions. What would half a circle look like in 10 / 0.5 ? Why do you get a bigger number when it's a division? It's teaching the kids the wrong concept! Division is *not* separating items into groups. That's only *one* of the potential applications of divisions.

 

You're right, that was a bit of an overstatement. I guess it's just my own personal goal for my kids. Can people function without knowing their times tables? Sure. Is it better to know them? Yes. Is that the goal I have for my kids? Yes. But absolutely, people are not destined to draw out pictures for the rest of their lives if they don't have their times tables memorized. They'll just use a calculator (and no, that's not the end of the world).

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

You're right, that was a bit of an overstatement. I guess it's just my own personal goal for my kids.

And my personal goal for my kids is to understand that the 6 table is just the same as the 5 table + x (3X6 = 3*5 + 3) Easy pie to remember. And if they can *understand* that, not just memorize the trick, then I'm a happy camper. The rest will come with use. The more you use multiplications and divisions, the more you remember them. And those you don't, you can figure them out.

 

My sister and I were both school champions in mental math. No calculators involved, no finger counting (that's too slow!) but a good grasp of math.

[Karen FL]

Stacie, you're correct. Thanks for pointing out my error. I should have typed 45/3=X not 45/15=X.

 

I ought to proofread more carefully.

[TXMary2]

You can probably bet money that it really wasn't the teacher, but the curriculum. I've seen some poor excuses for math curricula in the past five years that makes even the most pro public schoolers shake their heads. :glare:

 

 

I agree. The new math is horrid. I struggled a little with math in the good old days when it made sense, there is no way I'd get today's math if I were back in school. There are some You Tube videos showing how some ps math is being taught and it isn't surprising that so many are failing.

[TXMary2]

It's interesting to read that so many have had issues with kids not learning their multiplication tables. I pulled DS1 out of a private school in the middle of third grade, and only after discovered that he knew zip about multiplication. How did I not realize this while he was in school? He kept getting A's in math and never brought home math homework.

 

He did bring home lots of newsletters from the teacher that contained obvious grammatical and spelling errors. :001_huh: In retrospect, that should've made me get more involved. Then I might've known about the math.

 

It took us a year to catch him up, but now he's doing great at home. I've never looked back!

 

 

I agree that private school doesn't always equal better. We were paying $1100 a month for private school. We moved to Texas and did two months of public school before beginning homeschooling and it was then that I discovered my ds didn't know his time tables. When I think of the money we spent and thinking they were getting a superior education for it, I get mad.

[Karen FL]

Perry, I doubt that my sister thought to check the curriculum. She thought the teacher was at fault. I thought the same thing until you all enlightened me.

 

To those who like this method, I think it's fine to demonstrate problems with symbols and pictures. I have done that to help my son figure out a word problem. I would not teach my children to use pictures and symbols to figure out every problem on a page of division problems though.

 

She says his reading comprehension is low too.

 

He has had good grades and has been on the honor roll. Sigh.

[Daisy]

Well, sigh.

 

My daughter is 10yo and in 5th grade. She is still struggling with multiplication and division. I moved her back and placed her in Singapore Math. She is finishing up 3B this week. Talk about behind. I have no clue what to do about it. I can drill all day long and she doesn't remember those stupid facts. I can keep harping on her forever or I can let her progress since she knows HOW to do the problems if you don't forever hang her up on the memorized facts. So what to do?

 

I didn't always hate math but I think I do now. Who would have thought there are so many wrong ways to teach it. :glare:

 

Sorry for the vent. Anyone want to teach math at my house? New way, old way, I don't care, just so long as they learn it.

[Karen FL]

Daisy, I used Times Tales for multiplication facts. Times Tales set me back $19.95 plus shipping. My son learned his time tables in four weeks. I only did four days of drilling. Once in a while my son uses the online drill at mathusee.com.

 

I don't know if it would work as a remedial program. Perhaps someone else might have feedback on that.

I hope things turn around for you. I struggled with math until college. I went to the math lab in college and sat in the front row in math class and things finally started to click.

[Stacie]

Stacie, you're correct. Thanks for pointing out my error. I should have typed 45/3=X not 45/15=X.

 

I ought to proofread more carefully.

 

I'm sorry if it seemed I was pointing out errors. I couldn't get my head around why the teacher was teaching the kids to solve a problem that had already been solved, unless it was a means for checking their answer. It took me a bit to realize you probably just had the problem stated backward. Again I'm sorry if it seemed like I was nitpicking. :)

[stripe]

Well, in case this makes you feel any better (or maybe worse)....

 

Detroit children's rock-bottom scores on a national test are as shocking a reminder of the work that needs to be done fighting illiteracy, a key civil rights issue of this era....

 

Now it's time to act, for the children.

 

Today the Free Press, in concert with the Detroit Public Schools, sounds an extraordinary call to this region: Build a Reading Corps of trained tutors to deploy in city schools. Give 100,000 hours over the next year to ensure that city children read on grade-level by the third grade.

 

The school district will coordinate the effort. The Free Press, the Detroit Media Partnership, the Detroit News, Ilitch Holdings, Miller Canfield and ABC Warehouse have signed on as charter members who'll donate time and other resources to meet the goal.

 

Others must now join the cause. The Free Press will chronicle the efforts and every pledge made.

 

For now, we begin with a promise, and a plea.

 

We will do this. We need your help to make sure it's a success.

An appeal for tutors

 

The crisis is clear in Detroit's public schools.

 

Now the challenge is, too.

 

To vanquish the illiteracy that produced worst-ever scores by Detroit students on a national test last week, emergency financial manager Robert Bobb needs an army -- a Reading Corps composed of trained volunteers who'll descend on city schools in the coming months to help young children learn to read.

 

The goal: 100,000 hours of donated time, from all corners of this community, next year and every year going forward, so Detroit can be sure that every child reads at grade-level by the time he or she reaches third grade.

Does anyone else find anything, well, curious about this?

[Daisy]

Daisy, I used Times Tales for multiplication facts. Times Tales set me back $19.95 plus shipping. My son learned his time tables in four weeks. I only did four days of drilling. Once in a while my son uses the online drill at mathusee.com.

 

I don't know if it would work as a remedial program. Perhaps someone else might have feedback on that.

I hope things turn around for you. I struggled with math until college. I went to the math lab in college and sat in the front row in math class and things finally started to click.

 

Actually I think used that. Her problem oddly enough is with the 3s and 4s rather than the higher digits. Seems 4's would be easy. Double and double again. The biggest problem is getting her to realize that she needs 8x4=32 for a division problem like 34 divided by 4. Her brain just falls out. :lol:

[angela in ohio]

Well, in case this makes you feel any better (or maybe worse)....

 

Does anyone else find anything, well, curious about this?

 

There are two reasons for this:

 

First, they can't do anything about the teaching in schools. There is a stranglehold on the schools and the teaching colleges. The "method of the moment" and agendas have taken over the space that used to be used to teach children basic skills. It's nearly impossible to fire a teacher for teaching poorly, so many are putting in the minimum effort and collecting a paycheck. NCLB and other federal programs are an attempt to run a play around the unions and the schools of education, but they aren't working (well, some minority scores have gone up, but they aren't working well enough.) The only answer for many school districts is tutors. The tutors can teach however they want. They can teach multiplication facts and phonics. They are generally older folks, and they haven't been "re-programmed" by the teaching colleges into the modern methods of education. They are enjoying success in local schools here.

 

Second, parents used to back up what teachers taught all day. This isn't happening in many homes, so the tutors are replacing the time that parents used to invest in their children's education.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Oh my goodness, I thought this was an isolated incident with my son. He always made A's in math but does not know his math facts. :001_huh:

I would check out the math curriculum that the school uses. I would also check out the textbooks for the other subjects. There is a lot of fuzzy math and fuzzy english and fuzzy history and so on in way too many instances in our schools:(

 

Here is a great link:

 

http://www.illinoisloop.org/math.html#spiral

[tdeveson]

You can probably bet money that it really wasn't the teacher, but the curriculum. I've seen some poor excuses for math curricula in the past five years that makes even the most pro public schoolers shake their heads. :glare:

 

No Child Left a Mind.

[PiCO]

My son had a great teacher in 3rd grade, but he came home and didn't know his times tables well at all. In 4th grade, the school's method of dealing with this was to tape a "cheat sheet" to each student's desk...that way, they wouldn't have to think about it. Now, how sad is that???

 

Well, my older dd had trouble memorizing her times tables, so this is what I did so we could start division already. After doing division for a month or so, she had her times tables memorized.

[Nan in Mass]

Daisy, I pulled my son out of ps in 5th grade, did a year of Saxon, and then backed him up to PM 3B in 6th. We moved forward despite his not having his number facts memorized. I drilled two or three times a day with him (once doesn't work) and he managed to get most of them down, but forgot them all whenever we had any sort of vacation. I redrilled, quizzing him orally, mostly in the car. I did it for a few years (beginning in 5th) and eventually, he got them down. Meanwhile, he moved along in PM, finishing 6B at the end of 8th grade. He did NEM1-3 (along with Keys to Algebra 1-3) in 9th, 10th, and 11th, and then did precalc in 12th at th community college. We went slowly and made sure he understood. It worked out fine. Just don't rush to catch up so much that she gets lost and you have to back up again. I gave my son a multiplication chart to use when he was doing the math until he got the facts memorized.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I did this, too, for my son. I had one in elementary school myself. Eventually, I got them memorized, but it was a very slow process for me. I did AP calculus in high school so I don't think it hurt me GRIN.

[KristenS]

Just to put in a word for the teachers ... many of them don't have a choice about how to teach the material. Especially the non-tenured ones.

 

I did my student teaching partly in a 5th grade class. I was told to begin a unit (by the lead teacher), so I did, and it happened to be a day the principal chose to observe my class. When I began the unit, I realized the kids were missing some basic facts, so I backed up to teach them (it was a social studies concept, not math, though). That principal absolutely hit the roof that I was NOT teaching what was written down in the teacher's lesson plan book. And here I thought my job was to teach the kids something...

 

(Funny thing was, it was an optional program the lead teacher had chosen to use ... not even part of the curriculum ... but since I deviated from a lesson plan [that I didn't even choose], I was at fault. Even though the kids NEEDED the material I was covering.)

[Karen FL]

Kristen, the experience you had as a student teacher make me so sad. :(

 

Stacie, no worries. I'm glad you pointed out my error. I was embarassed but I didn't think you were nitpicking. Things that don't make sense need to be pointed out.

 

~Karen~

[KristenS]

Yeah, well, it got worse from there. LOL. If she was still the principal at that school, that would be reason enough for homeschooling ... I'd be afraid she remembered me! :) We're zoned for that school.

 

I ended up being switched to a third grade class at a different school, which was much better, and the teacher there let me have all the leeway I wanted to teach ... way cool ... but still limited by the curriculum and time I had available.

[astrid]

I agree. The new math is horrid. I struggled a little with math in the good old days when it made sense, there is no way I'd get today's math if I were back in school. There are some You Tube videos showing how some ps math is being taught and it isn't surprising that so many are failing.

 

:iagree::iagree:

And the teacher probably cringes every time she has to teach that. She probably knows it isn't sound, but can do little about it. The district was probably sold a bill of goods by the textbook company representative, which the district's curriculum coordinator bought hook, line and sinker. Now she's faced with teaching math using this method or lose her job. She's got a mortgage and kids to support, so yeah. She sucks it up and does it. Sad, but all too frequently the reality of public education. The TEACHERS know better, but nobody asks THEM. :001_huh:

 

astrid

[Daisy]

:iagree::iagree:

And the teacher probably cringes every time she has to teach that. She probably knows it isn't sound, but can do little about it. The district was probably sold a bill of goods by the textbook company representative, which the district's curriculum coordinator bought hook, line and sinker. Now she's faced with teaching math using this method or lose her job. She's got a mortgage and kids to support, so yeah. She sucks it up and does it. Sad, but all too frequently the reality of public education. The TEACHERS know better, but nobody asks THEM. :001_huh:

 

astrid

 

Absolutely agree with this. My husband is a 15yr veteran public school teacher and he sees this first hand. It is incredibly stressful and frustrating.

[Audrey]

Well, neither my sister nor I know our time tables. She, because she switched schools and missed the teaching of it. And I because I was too lazy.

Both of us are engineers, she has a Masters and I think a phD. I started my Masters in robotics but never finished it. I worked in 3D computer imagery as a programmer. I think not knowing our time tables did not slow us down and did not impede us at all.

 

Oh, and I know plenty of people like this too. It seems those who do know their time tables end up in something else than engineering and sciences (I was a Physics student before switching to engineering). No one cared about time tables, I can tell you that!

 

My main problem with the example cited above (the circles and marks within the circle) is that the explanation does not pan out when you get to fractions. What would half a circle look like in 10 / 0.5 ? Why do you get a bigger number when it's a division? It's teaching the kids the wrong concept! Division is *not* separating items into groups. That's only *one* of the potential applications of divisions.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Thank you for saying that!

While I will never agree with much of what passes for education in the public schools, I think the reverse assumption that "drilling the sacred math facts will teach Johnny to do math" is equally erroneous. I have several engineers as colleagues and they are so helpful when I have a concern about ds's math education. Every single one of them has said not to worry about drilling the facts, that if he understands the concept (which he does very well, almost naturally) that he will "get" math and be better off than those who can recite the drills, yet do not grasp the concepts with clarity.

 

As it was explained to me, "higher maths (engineering, physics, etc.) are critical thinking maths, not rote thinking maths." One particularly brilliant engineer friend of mine told me that, to him, math was creative thinking. He tried to explain how he meant that. I did not understand, but my ds did! That alone put my confidence back that the maths instruction ds is getting, and the way in which he is approaching math is absolutely spot on for his future goal to study sciences (he vacillates between physics and astronomy). Also, quite luckily, ds has a bit of a math mentor in this friend. I wish I'd had one when I was in school!

[Margo out of lurking]

My daughter is 10yo and in 5th grade. She is still struggling with multiplication and division. I moved her back and placed her in Singapore Math. She is finishing up 3B this week. Talk about behind. I have no clue what to do about it. I can drill all day long and she doesn't remember those stupid facts. I can keep harping on her forever or I can let her progress since she knows HOW to do the problems if you don't forever hang her up on the memorized facts. So what to do?

 

I didn't always hate math but I think I do now. Who would have thought there are so many wrong ways to teach it. :glare:

 

Sorry for the vent. Anyone want to teach math at my house? New way, old way, I don't care, just so long as they learn it.

 

Daisy, we did this, with my dd beginning Sing 3 in 5th grade. It worked out well for her. I thought she'd complete more than one Sing. year per school year, but she didn't. However, she actually liked math off and on and finally really started to "get" it last year when she was doing 6 (in 8th grade).

 

She also has always been fuzzy on her times tables. We did a lot of skip counting, recitation, writing. I guess it helped, but I'm not sure if I can actually TELL that it did. Obviously, we just moved on. Not knowing her facts was not helpful, and she could see that.

 

On the plus side, she taught herself German this year, completely on her own without a curriculum or book. I know this because when I finally did bring books home, she could open them up half way through and already know what they said.

 

So math is not her strong point, but I believe Sing. was a great grounding for her in math.

[Momling]

We've dealt in TERC Investigations and I'm sure this is what the original poster is describing. It's as if it's a curriculum devised by people who hated math as a kid and wanted to take out anything they didn't like. Of course you need the conceptual number sense, but it's a shame when a teacher is asked to *not* teach some pretty cool algorithms (like long division -- or even borrowing or carrying numbers in addition and subtraction!).

[tex-mex]

You can probably bet money that it really wasn't the teacher, but the curriculum. I've seen some poor excuses for math curricula in the past five years that makes even the most pro public schoolers shake their heads. :glare:

 

:iagree: Having taught in inner city schools, this is usually the case. I recall many kids not getting the memorization of facts mastered before going on to the next level. It happens more often than you think. And many of these minority kids were bright but had no help at home or encouragement to suceed. Then the dropout rate by high school goes sky high for inner city public schools. I just read they are mandating Algebra I in 8th grades in CA -- and ironically, I'll bet many minority students will be unprepared for it to pass with a decent grade.

Edited January 2, 2010 by tex-mex

[tex-mex]

Just to put in a word for the teachers ... many of them don't have a choice about how to teach the material. Especially the non-tenured ones.

 

I did my student teaching partly in a 5th grade class. I was told to begin a unit (by the lead teacher), so I did, and it happened to be a day the principal chose to observe my class. When I began the unit, I realized the kids were missing some basic facts, so I backed up to teach them (it was a social studies concept, not math, though). That principal absolutely hit the roof that I was NOT teaching what was written down in the teacher's lesson plan book. And here I thought my job was to teach the kids something...

 

(Funny thing was, it was an optional program the lead teacher had chosen to use ... not even part of the curriculum ... but since I deviated from a lesson plan [that I didn't even choose], I was at fault. Even though the kids NEEDED the material I was covering.)

 

BTDT... had one principal who demanded lesson plans to be submitted by Friday afternoon for the upcoming week. You could expect him to "pop" in unexpectedly to observe you were on time (according to your lesson plan) and doing what you wrote down. God, I hated teaching there.

[Alenee]

I just read they are mandating Algebra I in 8th grades in CA --

Mandating? That's insanity! I was a CA school kid and I can tell you even back then it would've been very difficult for most 8th graders to hang with that speed. We had three levels of math in 8th grade and of course, there was only one period for the highest level. Several periods for the other two levels. The majority of students were obviously at the lower two levels and that was when they taught math with some logic. :glare:

[stripe]

There are two reasons for this:

 

First, they can't do anything about the teaching in schools. ....

 

Second, parents used to back up what teachers taught all day.

Sure, I understand that a tutor could be greatly helpful. But I find something very, very sad about this straight-faced appeal that "something must be done" and the happy claim that a tutor who's received three hours of training can greatly improve these students' reading skills -- clearly, there is a very big problem. I just don't think a volunteer corps should be expected to teach children to read. This is the JOB of the teachers.

 

As a rough analogy -- if there is a town where many of the surgeries are being botched, is the solution to have an army of volunteer medics to assist ?

[plimsoll]

Ah, you evil educational anachronisms with your antiquated, discriminatory, oppressive, and elitist insistence upon rote memorization! Don't you know that forcing students to memorize things causes low self-esteem?

 

Or so the current educational paradigm goes....