from a Baptist point of view???

[Homeschooling6]

I've been on the boards here a while and I know that many secular ladies have asked many, many times if there is a secular unit study/literature approach curriculum like MFW, SL, TOG available and the answer has always been "no." I understand your husband wanting to steer away from false doctrine and not wanting to have to tweak another Christian curriculum to fit your beliefs, but I don't see that choosing a secular curriculum will be any easier and may be much harder to deal with in the long run.

 

God's truth deals with every area of life, every subject matter. A secular author, who's life is not governed by a desire to please God, cannot help but express an anti-God sentiment, however subtle, throughout his/her materials. I've never picked up a secular book I felt comfortable using as my sole curriculum. Let me say, gently:), that tweaking a Christian curriculum is much easier than tweaking a secular curriculum. Just tacking on a "Bible" class to a godless curriculum will not help your children to see that all of creation belongs to and is governed by the Creator - not just "spiritual" things. Put another way - all of Creation (language, science, mathematics, history, music, etc.) points to Christ. It is not really possible to separate each of these "subjects" from the truth of God's word.

 

The Christian worldview and all other worldview's are diametrically opposed to one another. The three main questions in life are: Where did we come from? What's wrong with the world? How do we fix it? Christians believe we were created by a Holy, Sovereign God for the purpose of bringing Him glory; that the problem with the world now is sin; and that redemption in Christ through His shed blood on the cross and resurrection is the only solution to the world's misery. No secular curriculum will present subject matter from this vantage point and may only serve to confuse your children even more.

 

The only curriculum that will suit your family on every single issue is the one you write yourself in light of God's word. You are not going to find anything pre-packaged (secular or Christian) that you will be able to agree with on every single point.

:iagree:

[Donna A.]

I've been on the boards here a while and I know that many secular ladies have asked many, many times if there is a secular unit study/literature approach curriculum like MFW, SL, TOG available and the answer has always been "no." I understand your husband wanting to steer away from false doctrine and not wanting to have to tweak another Christian curriculum to fit your beliefs, but I don't see that choosing a secular curriculum will be any easier and may be much harder to deal with in the long run.

 

God's truth deals with every area of life, every subject matter. A secular author, who's life is not governed by a desire to please God, cannot help but express an anti-God sentiment, however subtle, throughout his/her materials. I've never picked up a secular book I felt comfortable using as my sole curriculum. Let me say, gently:), that tweaking a Christian curriculum is much easier than tweaking a secular curriculum. Just tacking on a "Bible" class to a godless curriculum will not help your children to see that all of creation belongs to and is governed by the Creator - not just "spiritual" things. Put another way - all of Creation (language, science, mathematics, history, music, etc.) points to Christ. It is not really possible to separate each of these "subjects" from the truth of God's word.

 

The Christian worldview and all other worldview's are diametrically opposed to one another. The three main questions in life are: Where did we come from? What's wrong with the world? How do we fix it? Christians believe we were created by a Holy, Sovereign God for the purpose of bringing Him glory; that the problem with the world now is sin; and that redemption in Christ through His shed blood on the cross and resurrection is the only solution to the world's misery. No secular curriculum will present subject matter from this vantage point and may only serve to confuse your children even more.

 

The only curriculum that will suit your family on every single issue is the one you write yourself in light of God's word. You are not going to find anything pre-packaged (secular or Christian) that you will be able to agree with on every single point.

 

Well said, Kathleen.

[dhudson]

:iagree: totally and completely with Kathleen. I think your dh needs to go to the convention and/or talk to MFW or TOG. You know, David Hazell (from MFW) is usually available to talk to if you call their office and your DH might really enjoy that. I know my dh loves David and in fact is the one who originally picked out MFW for us because of talking with David.

 

One of the reasons we home school is so that our children can see that God is in everything from Science to Literature. I want my children to understand that we need God in every apsect of our lives not just on Sunday or when we do Bible. Imho, this is much each to teach with a Christian curriculum that has invested the time to write that into the curriculum.

Edited December 15, 2009 by dhudson

[angela&4boys]

I've been on the boards here a while and I know that many secular ladies have asked many, many times if there is a secular unit study/literature approach curriculum like MFW, SL, TOG available and the answer has always been "no." I understand your husband wanting to steer away from false doctrine and not wanting to have to tweak another Christian curriculum to fit your beliefs, but I don't see that choosing a secular curriculum will be any easier and may be much harder to deal with in the long run.

 

God's truth deals with every area of life, every subject matter. A secular author, who's life is not governed by a desire to please God, cannot help but express an anti-God sentiment, however subtle, throughout his/her materials. I've never picked up a secular book I felt comfortable using as my sole curriculum. Let me say, gently:), that tweaking a Christian curriculum is much easier than tweaking a secular curriculum. Just tacking on a "Bible" class to a godless curriculum will not help your children to see that all of creation belongs to and is governed by the Creator - not just "spiritual" things. Put another way - all of Creation (language, science, mathematics, history, music, etc.) points to Christ. It is not really possible to separate each of these "subjects" from the truth of God's word.

 

The Christian worldview and all other worldview's are diametrically opposed to one another. The three main questions in life are: Where did we come from? What's wrong with the world? How do we fix it? Christians believe we were created by a Holy, Sovereign God for the purpose of bringing Him glory; that the problem with the world now is sin; and that redemption in Christ through His shed blood on the cross and resurrection is the only solution to the world's misery. No secular curriculum will present subject matter from this vantage point and may only serve to confuse your children even more.

 

The only curriculum that will suit your family on every single issue is the one you write yourself in light of God's word. You are not going to find anything pre-packaged (secular or Christian) that you will be able to agree with on every single point.

 

:iagree: too... especially with regard to history and science.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

If you want a multi-book, literature approach to history you might take a look at BiblioPlan. I have no idea what their religious background is but they put together a fairly straightforward history curriculum with some literature and geography thrown in. It is maybe a sort of TOG light...?

 

I haven't looked at their Ancient World curriculum, I only know that it isn't completely secular because they do reference the Bible. I suspect that you could use whatever version suits your needs and that the intent is more that you read the story of Moses (as an example) than that you read a particular version.

 

Please note that the Biblio in the name refers to books-not the Bible.

 

If you google the name you should find their website.

[Melissa in CA]

We all have a right to believe how we chose and I do not condemn anyone just because they believe differently from me.(we also dont believe that only Baptist are going to heaven) But I also have a choice how I want to teach my children and that is all I was trying to find out.:confused: This thread was about currculum that might be considered approprate to use by a very old-fashion Baptist. I need to find something that makes dh comfortable.

 

No worries, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I totally agree that people have a right to believe differently from you, and from me. But, to be fair, I would say that your dh does in essence condemn Christians who believe [the unessentials] differently than you in that fact that he wants to use ONLY a Baptist curriculum, not Christian, Baptist...and if not Baptist, then Secular?? Yikes.

 

I know many, many "old-fashioned" Baptists and had some family in an "old-fashioned" Baptist church for several years, so I know from experience that how your dh feels is very telling.

 

'nuff said. I do truly hope you are able to find something your dh can accept. I would personally look very closely at MFW and consider it a viable option. TOG, though not overtly reformed, does have a reformed flair to it in some of the books chosen...ex. a book on John Calvin. I have not found the Teacher's Notes to be pushing any one religious view, but I truly doubt a Baptist curriculum would take the time to read a book on John Calvin. ;) You would definitely want to stay away from Veritas Press as well.

 

Oh, how about Heart of Dakota curriculum? Have you looked into it? It seems very Christ-centered and many rave about it here on these boards, though from what Christian perspective it comes from I have no idea. It doesn't LOOK reformed though. You might want to ask about it in a new thread. Perhaps it will fit the bill. :D

 

Many blessings to you on your hunt for what is best for you and yours.

[Donna T.]

As some of you know we are in our first year of HS. As we are plugging along I am trying to get my plans laid out for next year. This year has been all over the place. I have decided to teach the girls dd6 and dd9 together as much as possible. I love the looks of TOG and MFW and others, here is the problem. We are Independent Old-Fashion Baptist and dh is very steadfast that I not use curriculum written from a different religious point of view. Most programs I am finding are from a Reformed Protestant view. Does anyone know of a program like TOG or MFW that is written from a Baptist point of view. This would make me and dh happy. We were using AWOA but when dh realized it was written from a Calvanist side he had us stop using it. I am fine with it but dh is the boss! lol! So ladies have any ideas?!?!

 

I'm an Independent, Fundamental Baptist. I am totally opposed to Calvinism/Reformed Theology. I am very happy with Heart of Dakota. In the earliest programs, they do use some materials from Christian Liberty Press but I've had no problem omitting what I'm opposed to. Compared to other packaged curricula, it's very minimal.

[siloam]

I hope that this is not what you thought I meant. We all have a right to believe how we chose and I do not condemn anyone just because they believe differently from me.(we also dont believe that only Baptist are going to heaven) But I also have a choice how I want to teach my children and that is all I was trying to find out.:confused: This thread was about currculum that might be considered approprate to use by a very old-fashion Baptist. I need to find something that makes dh comfortable.

 

After talking about this alot last night. Dh has said that he thinks it would be better to go with something completely secular and he will add in our bible. (I'm still going to peak at MFW at convention) So ladies. can you give me some ideas on curriculum that is secular that compares to MFW, SL, HOD, in the way it is set-up?

 

 

I am agreeing with Kathleen. I will add a concrete example. In a secular curriculum you will not cover the great awakening at all, where as with a Christian curriculum you will look at how God used the great awakening to create a sense of unity that later helped bring/hold the people together leading up to the Revolutionary War.

 

I usually have more problems with secular material, because you have to deal with a different timeline if you are young earth, and you have to often deal with a liberal bias. With Christian material at least you get the conservative point of view, even if there might be a point or two you might have to explain that you see it a bit differently.

 

BWT with TOG you only have a Bible study for year 1. Even that is more sporadic, looking at it as history not as an actually Bible study. Year 2 covers church history, year 3 and 4 focus more on missionaries with some church history. All topics are only covered as they come up in history, and are not a consistent weekly thing. Hands down you would need a separate Bible study for years 2-4.

 

Now in case you don't know what I mean by young earth. :D Young earth is generally the group of Christians that take the creation account literally. By tracing genealogies in the Bible that would make the earth roughly 7000 years old instead of millions of years. Generally young earth creationists believe in microevolution, but not macroevolution. Old earth creationists take the creation account as representing God really creating, but they don't take it as literal. They believe God used evolution over millions of years, so they don't have a problem with evolution or old earth dating. More or less they think God started things and not a big bang. I am sure there are always exceptions and some who believe slightly differently, but that is the way I understand them.

 

Heather

 

 

[Donna T.]

Calvinists and Baptists believe the same in the essentials of the faith, and it's mainly the essentials that you will find in school curriculum.

 

 

 

 

I realize this thread is about curriculum and not doctrine and I do not mean to be rude at all. I deeply respect every individual's right to believe whatever they believe. But, within the Baptist churches there have always been those who oppose Calvinism. Calvinism as a philosophy is not a Baptist philosophy at all. The churches are gone that way but they didn't all start out that way. Calvinism teaches predestination of precious souls to an eternal hell for no other reason than that it gives God "good pleasure". That alone totally redefines the nature of God. The Bible says God shows no respect to persons and yet Calvinism makes the "elect" the recipients of God's grace and the "non-elect" totally ****able as outside of God's "grace". That is a totally different gospel than the one that our traditional independent Baptist church teaches. Two totally different gospels.

[thowell]

Good point Silom! We do believe in young earth and I am seeing where this would create a problem. I am even more confused than when I started. I will look at HOD a little closer also. I do really like the format of TOG and have looked it over on the website many many times.

 

We do not condem anyone else's beliefs or teachings but have chosen to try and not expose our young children to them just yet. This is why I would like to stay away from the reformed church theology. It has been confusing for me in my own personal study I dont think my girls would be able to understand. I guess it is kind od like if you were Jewish you might not want to teach your children from a Catholic perspective. So I guess I am looking into MFW, TOG, and HOD at the moment. This is why I have started 7 months in advance to make sure I come up with the best possible solution.

[Homemama2]

:bigear:

Would love to find something like this as well, but I think there isn't something out there to EXACTLY meet your needs. My pastor's wife suggested that when you have a curriculum that doesn't exactly agree with what you do, this is a great time to teach your kids WHY you believe it, using scripture to defend your beliefs. Rather than just always say, "here, this is right" then one day having someone challenge your child's thinking and they not being able to defend it. However, secular comes from the perspective of 'God didn't create the world, we are not held responsible to God for our actions, so who can really say what is right or wrong', etc. Especially in history, I think you will run into problems w/ secular texts in higher grades (think of how your thoughts on abortion, feminism, morals, political agendas etc differ from the average non-believer.)

 

Oh-and I agree about not teaching other religions to young children bc it can cause confusion. For the same reason I don't teach mythology to young children (will cover it in h.s. but recognising that it was idolotry.) I figure if children are young enough to believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy and the Easter bunny, why would I want to introduce mythology? After all, many intelligent adults were led astray by it for generations. And before anyone freaks, :) I couldn't care less what other people teach their kids about mythology and other religions... YMMV ;)

Edited December 15, 2009 by Homemama2

[Kathleen in VA]

:bigear:

My pastor's wife suggested that when you have a curriculum that doesn't exactly agree with what you do, this is a great time to teach your kids WHY you believe it, using scripture to defend your beliefs. Rather than just always say, "here, this is right" then one day having someone challenge your child's thinking and they not being able to defend it.

 

Excellent point! These are great opportunities to fine tune how your beliefs differ. Also, when mine were younger, I always read over their material. If there was ever a disagreement with what an author wrote, I could prepare myself to teach what we believe instead. I think it is very valuable to encounter some variance with your own beliefs as it sharpens you spiritually - makes you really consider what the Bible has to say about it and refine your own viewpoint.

 

My pastor always encourages us, as individuals, to be like the Bereans who searched the scriptures daily to see whether these things be so, even in regard to his own preaching. He acknowledges his humanness and finiteness and always points us to scripture as the final authority.

 

Not having a "perfect" curriculum could be God's way of getting you into His word to gird up your mind regarding your faith.

[Donna A.]

I realize this thread is about curriculum and not doctrine and I do not mean to be rude at all. I deeply respect every individual's right to believe whatever they believe. But, within the Baptist churches there have always been those who oppose Calvinism. Calvinism as a philosophy is not a Baptist philosophy at all. The churches are gone that way but they didn't all start out that way. Calvinism teaches predestination of precious souls to an eternal hell for no other reason than that it gives God "good pleasure". That alone totally redefines the nature of God. The Bible says God shows no respect to persons and yet Calvinism makes the "elect" the recipients of God's grace and the "non-elect" totally ****able as outside of God's "grace". That is a totally different gospel than the one that our traditional independent Baptist church teaches. Two totally different gospels.

 

That just isn't true, Donna.

 

"Calvinism" is just a nickname for the Doctrines of Grace, which is what was widely believed until Arminius' followers wrote the 5 points of Arminianism nearly 700 years after the scriptures were completed. The Doctrines of Grace were studied and codified by the Synod of Dort in response to Arminius' teachings. http://reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

 

Your statement implies that the Doctrines of Grace are heresy, and that's a VERY serious accusation. Heresy is something that teaches that Christ was NOT born of a virgin birth... that He was NOT resurrected from the dead... that He was NOT both God and man... that He did NOT transcend into heaven after His resurrection... that He is NOT returning to the earth in bodily form someday... I don't know a single Baptist, Calvinist or not, who doesn't agree with those basic tenets of Christianity.

 

Calvinism as a philosophy is not a Baptist philosophy at all. The churches are gone that way but they didn't all start out that way.

Again, this is NOT true across the board. Read A History of the Baptists by Robert G. Torbet.... who is a Baptist, btw.

 

And more history of Baptists.. Calvinist Baptists. It is NOT something "new" or "different". http://founders.org/

 

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread, but it is a very serious thing when one accuses their brethren in Christ of heresy. :sad:

[Susie in MS]

My baptist church just split...I mean ran off the preacher...I mean ENTIRE staff off and half the congregation because a few powerful people in that church did not understand what reformed folks really believe.

 

Sad.

 

Maybe I worded my post wrong. Sorry about that y'all. I know that is NOT what Calvinist believe. I was saying that the Baptist churches that I have been in teach the opposite of what most Reformed believe.

[Susie in MS]

I realize this thread is about curriculum and not doctrine and I do not mean to be rude at all. I deeply respect every individual's right to believe whatever they believe. But, within the Baptist churches there have always been those who oppose Calvinism. Calvinism as a philosophy is not a Baptist philosophy at all. The churches are gone that way but they didn't all start out that way. Calvinism teaches predestination of precious souls to an eternal hell for no other reason than that it gives God "good pleasure". That alone totally redefines the nature of God. The Bible says God shows no respect to persons and yet Calvinism makes the "elect" the recipients of God's grace and the "non-elect" totally ****able as outside of God's "grace". That is a totally different gospel than the one that our traditional independent Baptist church teaches. Two totally different gospels.

 

 

THIS is what I was trying to say. Thank you Donna for making it so clear and doing it with kindness. :D

[Susie in MS]

That just isn't true, Donna.

 

Your statement implies that the Doctrines of Grace are heresy, and that's a VERY serious accusation. Heresy is something that teaches that Christ was NOT born of a virgin birth... that He was NOT resurrected from the dead... that He was NOT both God and man... that He did NOT transcend into heaven after His resurrection... that He is NOT returning to the earth in bodily form someday... I don't know a single Baptist, Calvinist or not, who doesn't agree with those basic tenets of Christianity.

 

 

 

Gosh, maybe I missed something really BIG. I didn't see any of this in her post. :confused:

[Kathleen in VA]

Gosh, maybe I missed something really BIG. I didn't see any of this in her post. :confused:

 

She called the Doctrines of Grace a "different gospel" which is essentially saying it is not the true gospel, or put another way - heresy. Perhaps you are not familiar with the phrase "different gospel." If the Doctrines of Grace are heresy then I guess Charles Spurgeon is a heretic.:confused: Historically, Baptists have held to the Doctrines of Grace. It has only been in the last 175 years that they have strayed from that teaching, due largely in part to Charles Finney's preaching.

[thowell]

ok not to complicate things any further but can anyone tell me about the relgious content in Konos?

[Susie in MS]

She called the Doctrines of Grace a "different gospel" which is essentially saying it is not the true gospel, or put another way - heresy. Perhaps you are not familiar with the phrase "different gospel." If the Doctrines of Grace are heresy then I guess Charles Spurgeon is a heretic.:confused: Historically, Baptists have held to the Doctrines of Grace. It has only been in the last 175 years that they have strayed from that teaching, due largely in part to Charles Finney's preaching.

 

Apparently I am not familiar with the term as I thought she meant that Reformed held a different interpretation of scripture in these matters. YOu and I may look at the same scripture and understand it differently, but I don't see where that is heresy. At least one of us will be wrong, if not both. Thank God for His patience and forgiveness.

There is a separate set of Baptist that have never believed in the 5 pts of Calvinism. I believe we more closely align with the Anabaptist.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Susie in MS

[Donna A.]

Apparently I am not familiar with the term as I thought she meant that Reformed held a different interpretation of scripture in these matters. YOu and I may look at the same scripture and understand it differently, but I don't see where that is heresy. At least one of us will be wrong, if not both. Thank God for His patience and forgiveness.

There is a separate set of Baptist that have never believed in the 5 pts of Calvinism. I believe we more closely align with the Anabaptist.

 

Agreeing with you here, Susie (though we don't align with the Anabaptists), but what you said is not what Donna said.

[thowell]

Apparently I am not familiar with the term as I thought she meant that Reformed held a different interpretation of scripture in these matters. YOu and I may look at the same scripture and understand it differently, but I don't see where that is heresy. At least one of us will be wrong, if not both. Thank God for His patience and forgiveness.

There is a separate set of Baptist that have never believed in the 5 pts of Calvinism. I believe we more closely align with the Anabaptist.

 

 

We are Independent Baptist and do not agree with the five points of Calvanism. Also, we do not believe that we as a church were formed out of the reformation (that is the splitting of the church from the Catholic). Baptist have always been a seperate church and never a part of the Roman Catholic. http://bible-truth.org/BaptistHistory.html This is a little long but gives a very clear view of what Baptist are, where they came from, and why they are not Protestant.

[Susie in MS]

We are Independent Baptist and do not agree with the five points of Calvanism. Also, we do not believe that we as a church were formed out of the reformation (that is the splitting of the church from the Catholic). Baptist have always been a seperate church and never a part of the Roman Catholic. http://bible-truth.org/BaptistHistory.html This is a little long but gives a very clear view of what Baptist are, where they came from, and why they are not Protestant.

 

Agreeing! And this is a part of history that is not in any of the text that I have seen. Or I missed it. You always see Luther, Calvin, and other Reformers, and they are a valid part of history, but why leave out this other group. I believe that this is the reason for so much confusion. One thing that I liked about Rod and Staff is that they had the Minnonite History, and Minno Simons. You might see one line devoted to this man in other Christian text. I will have to look at the site you linked. I may print it up for our future lessons. My oldest 3 didn't get much of Baptist history, but I would like my lo to.

[Renai]

We are Independent Baptist and do not agree with the five points of Calvanism. Also, we do not believe that we as a church were formed out of the reformation (that is the splitting of the church from the Catholic). Baptist have always been a seperate church and never a part of the Roman Catholic. http://bible-truth.org/BaptistHistory.html This is a little long but gives a very clear view of what Baptist are, where they came from, and why they are not Protestant.

 

Ok, but again, that is the capital "P" Protestant, not what is meant by most curricula when referenced. I'm not Baptist, but there are very few specific denominations that believe in infant baptism (and other things referenced in that site), and I've never belonged to any of them. This is also not the type of thing you will find referenced (specific doctrine) in most Christian curriculum, to include MFW.

[thowell]

Ok, but again, that is the capital "P" Protestant, not what is meant by most curricula when referenced. I'm not Baptist, but there are very few specific denominations that believe in infant baptism (and other things referenced in that site), and I've never belonged to any of them. This is also not the type of thing you will find referenced (specific doctrine) in most Christian curriculum, to include MFW.

 

I agree with this on some points I was trying to make this clear to post that was unclear as to difference between Baptist and Reformed Baptist. I hear you about MFW. We will be looking at it in a convention this summer to see what we think. Thanks again for the suggestion.

[Renai]

I hear you about MFW.

 

Obvious I like them, eh? :D Really, I'm not trying to imply they are the only ones, but I do agree with others that stated it would be easier to tweak an already Christian curriculum, than try to rework a secular curriculum. There is a strength in your family's convictions that would make it very difficult to work around a secular worldview.

[crl]

I've been watching this thread with interest since we would consider ourselves Baptist. I have learned a few things about the different points of view here.

 

As for curriculum, I would second the vote for HOD or MFW. We have used HOD and it has fit our needs for the most part. I only looked at MFW, but from what I can see, it looks ok to me too.

[Rebecca VA]

Yes, there are plenty of Reformed churches that don't make evangelism a priority! There are Reformed Baptist churches that take Calvinism to an extreme!

 

We have attended two Reformed Baptist churches in our area over the past six years. The first was so hyper-reformed that it was unbearable. They gave lip service to evangelism but were only half-hearted in their support of it. A guest speaker from some Reformed institute up in Michigan preached to us one Sunday about how the Great Commission doesn't apply to believers because Christ was only addressing His disciples. Hey, why bother to evangelize if God has already made every decision in advance anyway? They wasted no opportunity to criticize every church out there that wasn't Reformed -- and the criticism was ugly and sneering.

 

We go to a Reformed Baptist church now that is very lovely -- the pastor is a five-point Calvinist who adores studying and discussing theology, but his sermons are beautifully inclusive for all serious believers. I appreciate not being bombarded over the head with predestination. I mean, it's in the Bible, but there are just as many references to personal choice and responsibility. We just don't know exactly how God works and how He thinks. We have hints in the Bible, but for any denomination to say they have God and His plan of salvation completely figured out is...not wise.

[Susie in MS]

I would like to say one more thing so that you guys know where I stand on this. My dd is engaged to a wonderful young man. He is a strong Christian and we love him dearly. He leans heavily toward Reformed doctrine. We just respectfully disagree on those doctrinal issues. My point is although I don't agree with the DoG or the 5pt of Calvin, I do recognize that we are all human and will not always agree. AND we are ALL mistaken in some areas even when we don't know it. But we can love each other with the love of Christ.

Agreed, yes? :001_smile:

[LizzyBee]

'nuff said. I do truly hope you are able to find something your dh can accept. I would personally look very closely at MFW and consider it a viable option. TOG, though not overtly reformed, does have a reformed flair to it in some of the books chosen...ex. a book on John Calvin. I have not found the Teacher's Notes to be pushing any one religious view, but I truly doubt a Baptist curriculum would take the time to read a book on John Calvin. ;) You would definitely want to stay away from Veritas Press as well.

 

I am non-reformed Baptist, but I have a different perspective. We've read books and watched videos about the reformers. They are such an important part of church history regardless of one's doctrine that I can't imagine leaving them out.

[thowell]

No worries, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I totally agree that people have a right to believe differently from you, and from me. But, to be fair, I would say that your dh does in essence condemn Christians who believe [the unessentials] differently than you in that fact that he wants to use ONLY a Baptist curriculum, not Christian, Baptist...and if not Baptist, then Secular?? Yikes.

 

I know many, many "old-fashioned" Baptists and had some family in an "old-fashioned" Baptist church for several years, so I know from experience that how your dh feels is very telling.

 

'nuff said. I do truly hope you are able to find something your dh can accept. I would personally look very closely at MFW and consider it a viable option. TOG, though not overtly reformed, does have a reformed flair to it in some of the books chosen...ex. a book on John Calvin. I have not found the Teacher's Notes to be pushing any one religious view, but I truly doubt a Baptist curriculum would take the time to read a book on John Calvin. ;) You would definitely want to stay away from Veritas Press as well.

 

Oh, how about Heart of Dakota curriculum? Have you looked into it? It seems very Christ-centered and many rave about it here on these boards, though from what Christian perspective it comes from I have no idea. It doesn't LOOK reformed though. You might want to ask about it in a new thread. Perhaps it will fit the bill. :D

 

Many blessings to you on your hunt for what is best for you and yours.

 

I was not going to respond to your post but it is really bugging me so here goes. I think that just because a person is very strong in their relgious convictions does not mean they believe everyone else is going striahgt to hell. i'm not sure if this is what you are trying to say about dh or not but it sure seemed that way. Let me say this is not how we feel. we do believe very much what we believe and do not want otherwise taught to our children at this age. However we also believe that salvation is between a person and God and noone has the right to judge who will go to heaven and who will not. We are respectful to others as we would excpect to be treated. Just because we don't want to teach our children from a reformed point of view or any other, does not mean we are against anyone who is not Baptist. I am sorry I started this thread if I had known it was going to lead to such a relgious debate. If someone was asking for curriculum taught from a Catholic point of view I would think that would be stated and noone would try to convince the poster they were not correct in their beliefs. If anyone has any curriculum choices to offer I would love to hear them.

[Donna A.]

I think that just because a person is very strong in their relgious convictions does not mean they believe everyone else is going striahgt to hell.

 

Not wanting to speak for Melissa, but thinking I know what she meant... as there ARE some people who think (and teach) that everyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do are going to hell. Perhaps not you or your dh :) but there are definitely some out there. I've heard them. :confused:

 

I am sorry I started this thread if I had known it was going to lead to such a relgious debate.

I think it's the way your subject line is worded that invited the theology discussion. ;) The problem is, when we start discussing religion and homeschool curriculum, well, it's sorta' like discussing politics. It's gonna happen. :boxing_smiley: Not your fault, and I'm sure you didn't intend it to go that way. It's just one of those things. :001_rolleyes:

 

Praying you find exactly what you need, Thowell. It'll help once you're able to go to convention and see everything in person. As for MFW (which as you know is our preference), it would be good if your hubby could call them up and ask questions. I'd give the same advice for HOD, Sonlight, and any others you're interested in, too.

 

In the meantime, maybe some conference talks on CD would help? http://www.mfwbooks.com/workshops.htm

[Melissa in CA]

That just isn't true, Donna.

 

"Calvinism" is just a nickname for the Doctrines of Grace, which is what was widely believed until Arminius' followers wrote the 5 points of Arminianism nearly 700 years after the scriptures were completed. The Doctrines of Grace were studied and codified by the Synod of Dort in response to Arminius' teachings. http://reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

 

Your statement implies that the Doctrines of Grace are heresy, and that's a VERY serious accusation. Heresy is something that teaches that Christ was NOT born of a virgin birth... that He was NOT resurrected from the dead... that He was NOT both God and man... that He did NOT transcend into heaven after His resurrection... that He is NOT returning to the earth in bodily form someday... I don't know a single Baptist, Calvinist or not, who doesn't agree with those basic tenets of Christianity.

 

Again, this is NOT true across the board. Read A History of the Baptists by Robert G. Torbet.... who is a Baptist, btw.

 

And more history of Baptists.. Calvinist Baptists. It is NOT something "new" or "different". http://founders.org/

 

My apologies to the OP for hijacking the thread, but it is a very serious thing when one accuses their brethren in Christ of heresy. :sad:

 

Donna A...thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Melissa in CA]

I was not going to respond to your post but it is really bugging me so here goes. I think that just because a person is very strong in their relgious convictions does not mean they believe everyone else is going striahgt to hell. i'm not sure if this is what you are trying to say about dh or not but it sure seemed that way.

 

Nope, that is not at all what I was saying or even implying. If I thought THAT I would have said it and called you on it. ;)

 

Let me say this is not how we feel. we do believe very much what we believe and do not want otherwise taught to our children at this age. However we also believe that salvation is between a person and God and noone has the right to judge who will go to heaven and who will not. We are respectful to others as we would excpect to be treated. Just because we don't want to teach our children from a reformed point of view or any other, does not mean we are against anyone who is not Baptist.

 

No, I think it's more in the fact that your dh would rather teach from an ungodly secular curriculum, than from fellow Christians who might not be Baptist. That to me is very telling. Sorry if you find my saying that offensive, I am truly not meaning to offend.

 

I am sorry I started this thread if I had known it was going to lead to such a relgious debate. If someone was asking for curriculum taught from a Catholic point of view I would think that would be stated and noone would try to convince the poster they were not correct in their beliefs. If anyone has any curriculum choices to offer I would love to hear them.

 

Catholics and "Christians" [meaning those not Catholic] are quite different in that they, the Catholic religion, teach and hold to many extra-biblical teachings [Catholic tradition/Dogma]. Teachings that Calvinists, Baptists, etc. [Christians] would not agree with at all. Whereas noncatholic Christians....who believe in Sola Scriptura...whether it be Baptist, Calvinist, Lutheran, a non-denom, etc....adhere to the same essential doctrines of the faith. Yes, they have a different opinion on how one comes to faith and perhaps when one should be baptized, but the essentials of the faith are the same. So, when your dh states that he would rather you teach your dc from a secular curriculum, opposed to one that is Christian but not Baptist, then that is going to raise some debate.

 

Now, having said that, I really can understand. Truly. I personally would not want to teach my children from a curriculum that is written from the "Christian" word-faith mindset. :tongue_smilie: And even though we adhere to the Doctrines of Grace, we believe in Believers Baptism and not infant baptism. So, even if my curriculum taught otherwise, which it doesn't, I would have to tell my son why we believe as we do, and why others believe as they do. I would not throw out an entire wonderful currculum over a small unessential issue like that. Word faith issues, yes, I wouldn't even touch a currculum that taught from that perspective. ;) So, we each have our tolorance levels, yes? :lol:

 

I think what I find so upsetting about peoples views on Calvinism though is the fact that they don't have their facts straight! :lol: It's one thing to study the facts and history in depth, and THEN choose to go the Arminian route, quite another to talk about something you know nothing about and believe that you do. (I am speaking the 'you' in general, not pointing at you Thowell or any specific person.) I find that the average person who speaks unkindly about the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism), speak from ignorance and unwittingly spread that ignorance around. It drives me bonkers, which is why I had to say something. I was not at all trying to convince one to believe as I do. Not really sure why you would think I was? :confused: Sorry, if it seemed that way.

[forty-two]

Catholics and "Christians" [meaning those not Catholic] are quite different in that they, the Catholic religion, teach and hold to many extra-biblical teachings [Catholic tradition/Dogma]. Teachings that Calvinists, Baptists, etc. [Christians] would not agree with at all. Whereas noncatholic Christians....who believe in Sola Scriptura...whether it be Baptist, Calvinist, Lutheran, a non-denom, etc....adhere to the same essential doctrines of the faith. Yes, they have a different opinion on how one comes to faith and perhaps when one should be baptized, but the essentials of the faith are the same. So, when your dh states that he would rather you teach your dc from a secular curriculum, opposed to one that is Christian but not Baptist, then that is going to raise some debate.

 

I disagree that all non-Catholic Christians adhere to the same essentials of the faith. We are as different from each other as we are from Catholics. Non-Catholic Christians differ in their beliefs about:

*the means of grace - are baptism and communion sacraments or ordinances?

*the nature of Scripture - Scripture *is* the Word of God vs. Scripture *contains* the Word of God

*the implications of having a sin nature - do we have free will?

*the importance, or lack thereof, of mental capacity - Can we sin without understanding what "sin" is? Can faith exist without understanding? Is any knowledge necessary for salvation?

 

All these things are, imo, essential issues - ones that can have huge implications in someone's worldview. I, too, would in many cases rather use a secular curriculum than one from a different denomination. Not because I think all other denominations are going to hell, but because I just don't agree with them - else I would be part of *that* denomination instead of mine. I find it easier to edit secular stuff that tries to be generic than Christian stuff that is denominationally specific. (As for "generic" non-Catholic Christian stuff, some is more generic than others - reading their statement of faith is usually a good guide to how much editing I will have to do.)

 

All that to say that I understand wanting to find something from your own, specific denominational viewpoint - it *is* important. (But as a Lutheran, I have given up all hopes of finding it - I guess I will just have to do it myself ;).)

[Melissa in CA]

Non-Catholic Christians differ in their beliefs about:

*the means of grace - are baptism and communion sacraments or ordinances?

*the nature of Scripture - Scripture *is* the Word of God vs. Scripture *contains* the Word of God

*the implications of having a sin nature - do we have free will?

*the importance, or lack thereof, of mental capacity - Can we sin without understanding what "sin" is? Can faith exist without understanding? Is any knowledge necessary for salvation?

 

 

Hmmm....you make good points forty-two. I guess I have not really thought about the varied differences within the denominations. I have never belonged to a denomination, which explains my ignorance, so I stand corrected. ;) I can personally tell you what *I* believe in regards to all your points though. :lol:

 

If you knew me, you would know that I am very picky about bible doctrine, and biblical accuracy. Yet in all of my 13+ years of homeschooling I have yet to find anything overtly mentioned within the various Christian curriculum that I have used that has caused me any major pause. :confused: Except for the 'free will' aspect, none of the above mentioned issues have I found discussed in any school curriculum to date. Even free will has not been mentioned to my knowledge, just the logical conclusion of that mindset in how one evangelizes the lost, and how one decides they chose Christ as opposed to Him choosing them before the foundation of the world. I was brought up with that free-will mindset, so I understand it completely...though I now totally disagree with it. Yet, though I disagree, I have no problems using Baptist curriculum. We worship the same God, we just do so a little bit differently.

 

I don't know. I'm tired and not making much sense. None of us have it perfectly right, and each of us have much to learn.

 

I would sincerely recommend to those who have not truly studied the Doctrines of Grace for themselves though, to please do so. There is absolutely no reason for you to be ignorant of such rich beautiful doctrines. Even if you decide to disagree, at least you'll know them and what they TRULY stand for. I decided to do just that 12 years ago and it changed my life. Know what you believe and why you believe it is my motto. Be like a Berean and study the scriptures for yourself....don't be handfed. Dig into them with much prayer.

 

For those who might be interested...here is a dvd that will help you at least understand more of the history of Calvinism. Amazing Grace The Doctrines of Grace, also know as the 5-points of Calvinism, were not the doctrines of Calvin...meaning something the man made up...these doctrines were written down by the Church as a rebuttal to the Remonstrance ( which I call the 5 points of Arminianism:)) It [the Remonstrance/Arminianism] was a heretical teaching introduced into the church. The Church Council refuted it with their own 5-points...which became known as the 5-points of Calvinism. The DVD simply explains it and makes it easy to understand. What we now know as Calvinism was THE Biblical Doctrines of the early Church Fathers. Arminianism and free-will came into the picture later. Anyhow, the DVD is not perfect and could go into more detail, but it's helpful in getting an overall condensed picture. Also, please do not misunderstand,,,,I am not trying to convince or convert anyone, just offering information to those who are interested in digging deeper into the subject. I have recieved a few PM's to that effect.

 

Ugh...OK, it's very late and I am very tired. If I stuck my foot in my mouth somewhere, I'll have to dig it out tomorrow. ;)

Edited December 16, 2009 by Melissa in CA

[ElizabethB]

MFW or TOG should be close to what you believe, and like Kathleen so eloquently stated, the worldview is likely to be much closer to yours and therefore easier to "tweak."

 

For this reason, I will occasionally consult the Catholic Encyclopedia online, it has viewpoints that you do not see anywhere else that I think are important to know, history wise. For example, it says this in its section about the French Revolution:

 

An especially odious persecution was renewed in France against the ancient Christian customs; it was known as the décadaire persecution. Officials and municipalities were called upon to overwhelm with vexations the partisans of Sunday and to restore the observance of décadi. The rest of that day became compulsory not only for administrations and schools, but also for business and industry. Marriages could only be celebrated on décadi at the chief town of each canton.

 

If you decide to make your own curriculum, a good guide to books to use is Christine Miller's All Through the Ages.

[...................]

Boy do I know how you feel. My dh wanted the same thing for years, except we are opposite, we strongly believe in the doctrines of grace/Calvinism.

 

I can tell you that there are far more Arminian-leaning curricula than Reformed.

 

In the end I no longer look for a full package and I use secular history from Well Trained Mind because she is very neutral. We di our own catechism and Bible study and our math and LA Are all non denominational.

 

You could ask dh if he would be ok with that.

 

Otherwise you might like Landmark Freedom Baptist.

[PineFarmMom]

 

I would sincerely recommend to those who have not truly studied the Doctrines of Grace for themselves though, to please do so. There is absolutely no reason for you to be ignorant of such rich beautiful doctrines. Even if you decide to disagree, at least you'll know them and what they TRULY stand for. I decided to do just that 12 years ago and it changed my life. Know what you believe and why you believe it is my motto. Be like a Berean and study the scriptures for yourself....don't be handfed. Dig into them with much prayer.

 

For those who might be interested...here is a dvd that will help you at least understand more of the history of Calvinism. Amazing Grace The Doctrines of Grace, also know as the 5-points of Calvinism, were not the doctrines of Calvin...meaning something the man made up...these doctrines were written down by the Church as a rebuttal to the Remonstrance ( which I call the 5 points of Arminianism:)) It [the Remonstrance/Arminianism] was a heretical teaching introduced into the church. The Church Council refuted it with their own 5-points...which became known as the 5-points of Calvinism. The DVD simply explains it and makes it easy to understand. What we now know as Calvinism was THE Biblical Doctrines of the early Church Fathers. Arminianism and free-will came into the picture later. Anyhow, the DVD is not perfect and could go into more detail, but it's helpful in getting an overall condensed picture. Also, please do not misunderstand,,,,I am not trying to convince or convert anyone, just offering information to those who are interested in digging deeper into the subject. I have recieved a few PM's to that effect.

 

Ugh...OK, it's very late and I am very tired. If I stuck my foot in my mouth somewhere, I'll have to dig it out tomorrow. ;)

 

You didn't stick your foot in your mouth. I agree with you!! I was raised Southern Baptist. Calvinism, TULIP (those 5 points), all of that was just heresy to me until I started really studying and understanding it and realized that my faith wouldn't be my own until I learned more about what my brothers and sisters in Christ believed. I'm not talking about delving into learning about the faiths that don't hold the Bible at the high standard it deserves...I don't really bother with that. Calvinists do believe the Bible is God's Word!! When I was done researching and understanding it a little, I really just faced that many who are Calvinists have a very high view of the Sovereignty of God and there is a huge gratitude for His grace. I'm still struggling with it a little and go back and forth, but I undersand it more now. Some of my favorite authors who have helped me grow the most in my faith are Calvinists...I had to come face to face with that knowledge and it helped me to decide to learn more.

 

Also, about Curriculum, MFW would fit, IMO. I haven't seen anything in it that would go against Baptist beliefs. I don't know about the others, but would definite say that about MFW.

[angela&4boys]

...So I guess I am looking into MFW, TOG, and HOD at the moment. This is why I have started 7 months in advance to make sure I come up with the best possible solution.

 

These are the ones I would consider as well. I'm sure all the authors would be more than happy to answer any questions you may have. In the past I have spoken to Mr. Hazell (MFW) and Mrs. Austin (HOD) when questions have arose, and they were both more than gracious. :)

[DianeL]

I believe Landmark is a Baptist curriculum.

[Dobela]

I am late to the discussion so forgive me if I repeat anything.

 

I want to focus on curriculum - as it is the original question. While I am not Baptist, I very much understand the issue of the OP. We feel the same way about teaching our children. At some point they will be taught a broader variety of Christianity, but right now we feel it is most important to teach what we belive to be true and right as the foundation. Later, as we cross those other interpretations, we will cover them and use them as teaching points and discussion topics. But not now in early elementary.

 

I did secular for a time but science and history became difficult subjects to cover because neither recognizes the Christian God as the only true God. History did a good job of covering the human side of history - greed and all that- but not beyond that. Because we belive God created the earth, the creation theories and evolutionistic theories that are heavy in secular science were not acceptable.

 

So, finally I am working thru different companies for different subjects. For Bible education I am currently using curriculums written by our chuch publishing companies. Some are written for Sunday school use but I use them anyway. I just expand topics as needed to make it last longer or use adult curriculums and more thru them more slowly. I also love the Bible Study Guide For All Ages. You use the translation you want and you read from the Bible for each lesson. The Bible only! We learned so much from using their guides and became such fans that our church is using them now for their main curriculum in the youth department.

 

For math, grammar, and some reading I use Bob Jones. I chose it because it fits my son's learning style best (after we also tried Rod and Staff, ACE, and some others). I love Bob Jones. So far there is not much doctrine at all, just Bible references and Bible stories integrated into the lessons. There was some doctrine in the Bible curriculum that we didn't agree with but since it was in the TM and not the student text it was easy to skip over without effecting the lessons. For Science we are using Real Science for Kids. I LOVE it as well. Some don't, and I understand why, but it works well for us. Right now for history we are just reading texts from lists like Beautiful Feet and Sonlight.

 

Landmark Curriculum is well written as well. I have always been impressed with it when I have seen it at conventions.

 

I wish you the best on your journey. The first few years are hard as you look for the right match for your children. You may not find the just right curriculum this year but you will be learning what you like and dislike so you can make a more informed decision in the future.

[thowell]

Just wanted to give an update. This is what we will be doing for the rest of this year. We will be using FIAR with a little extra for dd9. Dh is going to write our Bible study each week to go along with whatever character trait we are learning from the book. I am still looking into next year but if this works we may just advance to Beyond Fiar and let DH handle Bible study. This makes him feel much more secure in what the children are being taught biblically and it allows me to combine both girls and add in extras for dd9. I have received my catalogs from HOD and MFW and dh is looking over both. We will see how the rest of the year goes wish us luck! And thanks to all who offered advice and opinions on this!

[cbollin]

and let DH handle Bible study. This makes him feel much more secure in what the children are being taught biblically and it allows me to combine both girls and add in extras for dd9. I have received my catalogs from HOD and MFW and dh is looking over both. We will see how the rest of the year goes wish us luck! And thanks to all who offered advice and opinions on this!

 

great update!

 

I hope that no matter what you use, that your dh will continue to be an involved dad in homeschooling. MFW certainly encourages dads to be involved. I'd encourage you to let your dh call both MFW and HOD and talk directly to those involved there about any of the books either program uses and how Bible study is handled. based on your description of your dh's involvement, I think your husband will be pleased with MFW's way of it. (I've never used HOD so he might be pleased there too.)

 

In the meantime... your husband might enjoy a workshop given by MFW's David Hazell about Working Dads Can Homeschool Too!

Here's a link to ordering info

http://www.mfwbooks.com/workshops.htm

 

It's full of *practical* dad to dad advice and could be applied no matter what curriculum you use.

 

Best wishes!

 

-crystal

[DB in NJ]

As some of you know we are in our first year of HS. As we are plugging along I am trying to get my plans laid out for next year. This year has been all over the place. I have decided to teach the girls dd6 and dd9 together as much as possible. I love the looks of TOG and MFW and others, here is the problem. We are Independent Old-Fashion Baptist and dh is very steadfast that I not use curriculum written from a different religious point of view. Most programs I am finding are from a Reformed Protestant view. Does anyone know of a program like TOG or MFW that is written from a Baptist point of view. This would make me and dh happy. We were using AWOA but when dh realized it was written from a Calvanist side he had us stop using it. I am fine with it but dh is the boss! lol! So ladies have any ideas?!?!

 

 

thowell, if you're talking Independent, Fundamental Baptist as in Hyles Anderson educated, then you'll probably be fine with Landmark's Freedom Baptist, ABeka, or Bob Jones. You can't go wrong with any of those if you're trying to teach from your worldview.

 

I have to say that academically, Landmark's Freedom Baptist is lacking when compared to either ABeka or BJU. Rod & Staff, although written by Mennonites, is conservative, KJV only, and very solid academically -- and I've noticed no Anabaptist teachings in their math or English ;)

 

Good luck to you!

[jazzyfizzle]

:lurk5:

[LAmom]

And not to get into a debate at all....but this is NOT what "Calvinists" believe. Aiy-yi-yi. :confused:

 

 

:iagree:

[mnllj7]

I like what Susan Wise Bauer said in one of her writings. I am paraphrasing. She is a wife of a pastor. She does not consider her books non-christian. She believes that teaching our children is the parents responsibility to teach from their on doctrinal views and not have the textbook insert those views.

So, if you were using her history curriculum, you would from a fundamental baptist standpoint. Insert thoughts on the wars, the leaders, their character from your own doctrinal standpoint. If you were "calvanist" then you woulde insert God's sovereignty into the picture. These are examples. Which I think is a Good idea. Interestingly enough as i have studied God's word, and the line between baptist and calvanist. (Now i know there are extremes in both) but surprisingly, I found that there are more simularities than differences. Yes baptism is a difference. But for salvation it is the same.

 

I think what is most important is teaching our children daily as deut.6 tells us to do. when something objectionable comes up in the text. Explain it to our children.

 

Living books curriculum is a christian literature based curriculum that I do not believe has a Reformed slant. I found most classical is more on the reformed side. But teaching about the reforms i think is a positive thing. They did some very important work for christianity. Living books curriculum is literature based but it is a totally CHarlotte Mason approach.

 

I have found things i really like on all sides of the christian spectrum for homeschooling books. The Rod and Staff which is mennonite, Veritas which is reformed, Abeka and Bob Jones which is Fundamental baptist. At least I know Abeka is because i Live in Pensacola, our President of our homeschool league is a college instructor and sunday school teacher at the college. I think like so many others have said picking and choosing out of the curriculum what you want to say to your children. When reading books. Always add your personal slant on what you want your child to learn. If they dont know about other things now, eventually they will, I believe it is best coming from us first. Explaining our feelings and differences than them finding out in the world.

 

I pray you find what you like in homeschooling as far as curriculum goes.

 

I just remembered one that wasnt mentioned i dont believe, That is Landmark Freedom Baptist Curriculum. It is more worktext and workbook i believe. I have never used it. But i do believe that is a fundamental baptist curriculum.

 

God bless, nancyt.:)