Does anyone here know if the origins of "marriage" is a Christian concept ... or??

[5KidzRUs]

Does anyone here know if the origins of "marriage" is a Christian concept ... or??

My daughter is doing a paper on gay marriage and asked me to ask you all if the ceremony of marriage is of religious origin.

Not trying to stir any pots - :bigear: - asking for historic (not present day) information.

 

Thank You!!

[Melinda in VT]

Do you want to know if its origins are Christian or if they are religious?

 

Those are two very different questions.

[Tangerine]

Christian? Like after Christ? No. Marriage predates written history.

[5KidzRUs]

Christian? Like after Christ? No. Marriage predates written history.

 

Thank you for the QUICK reply - that is exactly what I think she wanted to know.

 

:001_smile:

[wulfbourne]

Nope, it's origins are not completely religious. As a matter of fact, in some places in hisotry Gay marriage was legal.

 

ETA: I did want to add, that while historically 'marriage' has been a lot of different things in different countries, it might also help her to know where the US marriage on. http://purposeofmarriage.org/USA_laws.html

Edited November 6, 2009 by wulfbourne

[momofkhm]

But after thinking a bit, I would say it's a God concept. God ordained the first marriage in Eden between Adam and Eve.

 

Gen 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

 

There is some controversy exactly when that took place: first week? second week? But I believe it happened very early.

 

Christ's first miracle happened early in his ministry at a marriage reception - water into wine. (John 2:1-11)

 

But marriage didn't start with Jesus so it's not just a Christian concept.

[mommaduck]

Definitely not Christian origin. But for those that are of various faith, they do believe that it has foundations from the beginning of creation.

[LauraGB]

Interesting. I guess I always thought that lifelong companionship and commitment were simply human instinct (ie ancient) and all the bells and whistles (ie paperwork) was a more recent (religious and political) thing.

 

Although, I might have made that up during the years of sleepless hours between 2am-4am. I think I ought to head over to the 'unable to turn your mind off to sleep' thread. :leaving:

[asta]

The Goths had it.

[mommaduck]

Interesting. I guess I always thought that lifelong companionship and commitment were simply human instinct (ie ancient) and all the bells and whistles (ie paperwork) was a more recent (religious and political) thing.

 

 

The first part yes. The second part is also ancient, but not as, and has changed over time.

[AuntieM]

If you look at the Biblical (Old Testament) practice of covenants, which is a fascinating topic to study, you can see elements of cutting a covenant in God's creation of Eve. So, one could arguably say that God instituted a committed-for-life relationship, something we today recognize as marriage, way back in the first week of creation. Since Christians understand that the Bible is the record of beginnings, I would say that marriage is a Judeo-Christian belief, and that man and woman were uniquely created for one another.

 

Just my pair o' pennies...

[mommaduck]

The thing is, since it has been observed from creation, it has been recognised by all cultures, not just Judaism and Christianity. Therefore, it's not a strictly Judaic, Christian, Judeo-Christian belief. It is a human belief and a human practice.

[lionfamily1999]

The thing is, since it has been observed from creation, it has been recognised by all cultures, not just Judaism and Christianity. Therefore, it's not a strictly Judaic, Christian, Judeo-Christian belief. It is a human belief and a human practice.

But one that came from God, making its roots Judeo-Christian, right?

[Crissy]

An interesting book on the topic is Marriage, a History: How Love Conquered Marriage by Stephanie Coontz.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

But one that came from God, making its roots Judeo-Christian, right?

 

I guess it depends on which god one worships. Many non-Christian religions and cultures have had marriage since recorded time. Therefore it cannot be simply a Judeo-Christian concept.

 

One could easily use the same (faulty) logic used to prove marriage a Judeo-Christian concept to prove it a concept of any other religion.

Edited November 6, 2009 by MeanestMomInMidwest

[asta]

But one that came from God, making its roots Judeo-Christian, right?

 

Since when does God = Judeo-Christian?

 

 

a

[Audrey]

But one that came from God, making its roots Judeo-Christian, right?

 

 

Hmmm... I would say no. Plenty of non-Judeo-Christian ancient cultures had marriage ceremonies -- thinking ancient Egyptians (pretty elaborate and religious, but definitely not the Judeo-Christian god). Also, the ancient Chinese -- ranging from simple to elaborate and very far removed from the Judeo-Christian god.

 

These are just two examples -- there would be many, many more.

[mommaduck]

But one that came from God, making its roots Judeo-Christian, right?

From Gd, yes. But from before Judaism existed as Judaism and from before Christianity existed as Christianity. It was from the beginning and thus was one of the foundations of humanity that was laid by Gd and recognised by all cultures...even those that had NO contact with Judaism or Christianity. Count it as "Gd thing" rather than a Judeo-Christian thing ;) It's one of those things that we have to say "it's a mystery!" to. Gd doesn't work just within the confines of our beliefs. He created them and even scripture says that His existance is seen in nature. This is one of those things...a natural order.

[AuntieM]

IF you are of the belief that the Bible is the authoritative word of God (which I do, personally), then Adam and Eve are the parents of all, and marriage began with them. That predates all other cultures.

 

HOWEVER, one may not see things the way I do :001_smile:

 

I suppose you may never find a definitive answer. Not necessarily because the actual origin is religious versus civil, but because one's interpretation of it will be influenced by the doctrinal positions s/he holds.

 

If I were writing a persuasive paper, and needed evidence that is not based on my own religious views, I'd try to find out which written record makes the earliest dated mention of the institution of marriage. Perhaps that would help?

 

Your poor dd probably never thought she faced such a challenging question! I am sure she will write a fine paper as long as she can state her own views and back it up with solid reasoning.

[DB in NJ]

As much as I respect the opinions of those on this board, I would think that for a paper, your dd should get her answers from an expert source, not some ladies on a homeschooling board.

 

Just my .02.

[mommaduck]

IF you are of the belief that the Bible is the authoritative word of God (which I do, personally), then Adam and Eve are the parents of all, and marriage began with them. That predates all other cultures.

 

Agreed...and that is what I am saying! It predates ALL cultures and thus was carried over into all cultures...not JUST, and not FIRST, Judaism and Christianity. Rather it started at the beginning.

[5KidzRUs]

As much as I respect the opinions of those on this board, I would think that for a paper, your dd should get her answers from an expert source, not some ladies on a homeschooling board.

 

Just my .02.

 

 

... of course ... that goes without saying - but thank you for posting.

 

Also, this board is pretty much the most collective expert source I have encountered on the internet.

 

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses :001_smile:

[kmacnchs]

I agree w/the ladies about God introducing the marriage concept to Adam and Eve...may I just say that today's marriage *ceremonies* are NOTHING like they used to be. The bride and groom used to get married in a tent, bring out the cloth proving they were married, and then there would be a celebration. I do not like how it is done today b/c the ceremony is not the marriage...not that I am saying that sex is the only thing in a marriage but I do believe that when you have sex with someone you are united to them forever (ie marriage)...just my 2c (I KNOW MOST WILL DISAGREE, just food for thought).

[mommaduck]

I agree w/the ladies about God introducing the marriage concept to Adam and Eve...may I just say that today's marriage *ceremonies* are NOTHING like they used to be. The bride and groom used to get married in a tent, bring out the cloth proving they were married, and then there would be a celebration. I do not like how it is done today b/c the ceremony is not the marriage...not that I am saying that sex is the only thing in a marriage but I do believe that when you have sex with someone you are united to them forever (ie marriage)...just my 2c (I KNOW MOST WILL DISAGREE, just food for thought).

 

This also didn't happen in all cultures, only some. Also, it denies the idea that people can be wedded even if they are unable to perform the duties of marriage. In some cultures it would be legitimate cause for divorce or annulment. In others you are denying them life-long companionship and all the other blessings that come with marriage.

 

Also, would you say that a young woman whose first encounter via rape is now wedded to her attacker?

 

Just food for thought.

[kmacnchs]

 

Also, would you say that a young woman whose first encounter via rape is now wedded to her attacker?

 

 

 

Don't you think that if you were raped, you would be tied mentally, emotionally, and physically to your attacker? I would think so...so in a way, yes...not in the loving way, of course. Do I think you would be committing adultery if you married someone else after that? NO! But that comes from me, not the Bible...however, I think it does say somewhere that if a man rapes a woman and then wants to marry her, he is to pay the bride price (though I'm not sure who would want to consent to that) to her father. If he does not marry her, then she is not committing adultery if she marries someone else...again, just food for thought, however distasteful...

[mommaduck]

Don't you think that if you were raped, you would be tied mentally, emotionally, and physically to your attacker? I would think so...so in a way, yes...not in the loving way, of course. Do I think you would be committing adultery if you married someone else after that? NO! But that comes from me, not the Bible...however, I think it does say somewhere that if a man rapes a woman and then wants to marry her, he is to pay the bride price (though I'm not sure who would want to consent to that) to her father. If he does not marry her, then she is not committing adultery if she marries someone else...again, just food for thought, however distasteful...

I don't know, but I'm sure there are those that have been rape victims that may disagree with you. I'm guessing from your response that you have not been in that position either, thus it's merely speculation. And demanding a bride price is not evidence that the sex was considered what made them one. It was an offer to right a wrong and force responsibility upon a person.

[lionfamily1999]

MeanestMomInMidwest, asta, and Audrey, I was asking, from a Christian perspective, another Christian. Of course, I would say that the true God is Christ. I was enjoying the conversation, having not made the Adam & Eve first marraige connection, so when mommaduck said it wasn't necessarily Judeo-Christian I was curious as to whether or not God having been the Judeo-Christian God would've made it a Judeo-Christian ceremony. Thank you for defending the world against overt Christianity. At ease :p

 

From Gd, yes. But from before Judaism existed as Judaism and from before Christianity existed as Christianity. It was from the beginning and thus was one of the foundations of humanity that was laid by Gd and recognised by all cultures...even those that had NO contact with Judaism or Christianity. Count it as "Gd thing" rather than a Judeo-Christian thing ;) It's one of those things that we have to say "it's a mystery!" to. Gd doesn't work just within the confines of our beliefs. He created them and even scripture says that His existance is seen in nature. This is one of those things...a natural order.

Chicken or the egg then? IOW, were Adam and Eve Jewish? :lol: I'm loving this thread, there's a lot to think about here.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

IOW, were Adam and Eve Jewish? :lol: I'm loving this thread, there's a lot to think about here.

 

Adam and Eve were gentiles. Abraham was the first Hebrew - he was the first to be called out as a separate nation. He was the first to be circumcised also. The word "Jew" comes from his descendants - the tribe of Judah.

[mommaduck]

MeanestMomInMidwest, asta, and Audrey, I was asking, from a Christian perspective, another Christian. Of course, I would say that the true God is Christ. I was enjoying the conversation, having not made the Adam & Eve first marraige connection, so when mommaduck said it wasn't necessarily Judeo-Christian I was curious as to whether or not God having been the Judeo-Christian God would've made it a Judeo-Christian ceremony. Thank you for defending the world against overt Christianity. At ease :p

 

 

Chicken or the egg then? IOW, were Adam and Eve Jewish? :lol: I'm loving this thread, there's a lot to think about here.

If Adam and Eve were Jewish, then would not everyone be Jewish?

[lionfamily1999]

Slow on the uptake today, it just has not been a good one ;)

Adam and Eve were gentiles. Abraham was the first Hebrew - he was the first to be called out as a separate nation. He was the first to be circumcised also. The word "Jew" comes from his descendants - the tribe of Judah.

Right, thank you, okay!

If Adam and Eve were Jewish, then would not everyone be Jewish?

Not necessarily, but it doesn't matter, because I was wrong :lol:

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

MeanestMomInMidwest, asta, and Audrey, I was asking, from a Christian perspective, another Christian. Of course, I would say that the true God is Christ. I was enjoying the conversation, having not made the Adam & Eve first marraige connection, so when mommaduck said it wasn't necessarily Judeo-Christian I was curious as to whether or not God having been the Judeo-Christian God would've made it a Judeo-Christian ceremony. Thank you for defending the world against overt Christianity. At ease :p

 

 

Chicken or the egg then? IOW, were Adam and Eve Jewish? :lol: I'm loving this thread, there's a lot to think about here.

 

I'm terribly sorry. I didn't see anything that prohibited someone other than an overtly professing Christian to reply. I must have misinterpreted the title. I stupidly assumed that the "anyone" in "Does anyone here know..." included, well, anyone. I simply took it as a request for facts and chimed in - my mistake.

At ease :D

Edited November 7, 2009 by MeanestMomInMidwest

[Rosie_0801]

Adam and Eve were gentiles. Abraham was the first Hebrew - he was the first to be called out as a separate nation. He was the first to be circumcised also. The word "Jew" comes from his descendants - the tribe of Judah.

I don't know that someone could be a gentile before Jews existed, since gentile means "not a Jew." My vote is that they'd have been proto-Jews :)

 

Rosie

[AuntieM]

My vote is that they'd have been proto-Jews :)

 

Rosie, you always make me laugh! I appreciate your way with words.

[Audrey]

MeanestMomInMidwest, asta, and Audrey, I was asking, from a Christian perspective, another Christian. Of course, I would say that the true God is Christ. I was enjoying the conversation, having not made the Adam & Eve first marraige connection, so when mommaduck said it wasn't necessarily Judeo-Christian I was curious as to whether or not God having been the Judeo-Christian God would've made it a Judeo-Christian ceremony. Thank you for defending the world against overt Christianity. At ease :p

 

 

Chicken or the egg then? IOW, were Adam and Eve Jewish? :lol: I'm loving this thread, there's a lot to think about here.

 

 

Well EXCUUUUUUUUSE me. :confused: I wasn't able to read your mind and was just answering with no ill intention. The OP didn't SAY Christians only.

 

So very sorry to have brutally attacked your delicate sensibilities.

 

At ease yourself chickita. :glare:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't know that someone could be a gentile before Jews existed, since gentile means "not a Jew." My vote is that they'd have been proto-Jews :)

 

Rosie

 

OK, I'll go with that!:lol:

[JWSJ]

Nope, it's origins are not completely religious. As a matter of fact, in some places in hisotry Gay marriage was legal.

 

Outside of the near present, what places in history was Gay marriage legal?

[nmoira]

Outside of the near present, what places in history was Gay marriage legal?

From Wikipedia, which repeats information from a more detailed article:

 

Various types of same-sex marriages have existed, ranging from informal, unsanctioned relationships to highly ritualized unions.

 

 

 

In the southern Chinese province of Fujian, through the Ming dynasty period, females would bind themselves in contracts to younger females in elaborate ceremonies. Males also entered similar arrangements. This type of arrangement was also similar in ancient European history.

 

 

 

The first recorded mention of the performance of same-sex marriages occurred during the early Roman Empire. These same sex marriages were solemnized with the same ceremonies and customs which were used for heterosexual marriages. Cicero mentions the marriage (using the latin verb for "to marry", i.e. nubere) of the son of Curio the Elder in a casual manner as if it was commonplace. Cicero states that the younger Curio was "united in a stable and permanent marriage" to Antonius.[37] Martial also mentions a number of gay marriages. By Juvenal's time, gay marriages seem to have become commonplace as he mentions attending gay marriages as if there were "nothing special.". These gay marriages continued until Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. A law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) was issued in 342 AD by the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans. This law prohibited same-sex marriage in ancient Rome and ordered that those who were so married were to be executed.

 

 

 

[mommaduck]

I don't know that someone could be a gentile before Jews existed, since gentile means "not a Jew." My vote is that they'd have been proto-Jews :)

 

Rosie

Good term.

[lionfamily1999]

I'm terribly sorry. I didn't see anything that prohibited someone other than an overtly professing Christian to reply. I must have misinterpreted the title. I stupidly assumed that the "anyone" in "Does anyone here know..." included, well, anyone. I simply took it as a request for facts and chimed in - my mistake.

At ease :D

Not at all, I was answering a Christian and did not see any reason to qualify my answer. I never meant to insinuate you couldn't reply to the thread, simply that my post was in response to a Christian poster.

Well EXCUUUUUUUUSE me. :confused: I wasn't able to read your mind and was just answering with no ill intention. The OP didn't SAY Christians only.

 

So very sorry to have brutally attacked your delicate sensibilities.

 

At ease yourself chickita. :glare:

 

Sorry to've offended.

Edited November 8, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[Devotional Soul]

Ancient history is full of proto-Jews! :)

 

From ancient India, according to Vedic scriptures, the origin of marriage is from the divine marriage that exists eternally in the heavenly realms between the Supreme God and Goddess, beyond and before even the creation of this universe and Earth and the first progenitors of mankind.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.23.25: We can see that this queen...has served her husband with mind, speech and body exactly as the goddess of fortune serves the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (This is meaning that she served her husband instead of having a servant do it, not that we can be God.)

 

Then there are the stories of marriage ceremonies on Earth that are said to have taken place thousands of years ago. The Ramayana tells of Rama and Sita's wedding in Treta Yuga over 800,000 years ago. Then Krishna and his many wives had elaborate marriage ceremonies at the beginning of Kali Yuga, 5,000 years ago. There was also the swayamvara ceremonies that occurred throughout Vedic history, where many men would compete to be chosen to marry the lady, (usually princesses).

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.14.18: In household life one is ordered to execute many ceremonies and fruitive activities, especially the vivaha-yajna [the marriage ceremony for sons and daughters] and the sacred thread ceremony. These are all the duties of a householder, and they are very extensive and troublesome to execute.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Devotional Soul

[sheryl]

But after thinking a bit, I would say it's a God concept. God ordained the first marriage in Eden between Adam and Eve.

 

 

 

There is some controversy exactly when that took place: first week? second week? But I believe it happened very early.

 

Christ's first miracle happened early in his ministry at a marriage reception - water into wine. (John 2:1-11)

 

But marriage didn't start with Jesus so it's not just a Christian concept.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Sheryl <><

[tdeveson]

Christian? Like after Christ? No. Marriage predates written history.

 

If I may respectfully disagree, marriage as we recognize it today did not begin until the late middle ages.

[mom4sons]

Excellent conversation....The union of people has existed for years.

When was the word marriage introduced?

When was the legal term of marriage recognized?

How does this relate to the question of gay marriage?

If the legal term of marriage is opposite sex, what are the options for same sex people who want unions? What has occurred in history?

She will have an incredible paper.

Opening this up to input from the board is wise. Hopefully, she will be challenged to explore this more thoroughly as differing thoughts are shared.

[asta]

Ancient history is full of proto-Jews! :)

 

From ancient India, according to Vedic scriptures, the origin of marriage is from the divine marriage that exists eternally in the heavenly realms between the Supreme God and Goddess, beyond and before even the creation of this universe and Earth and the first progenitors of mankind.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.23.25: We can see that this queen...has served her husband with mind, speech and body exactly as the goddess of fortune serves the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (This is meaning that she served her husband instead of having a servant do it, not that we can be God.)

 

Then there are the stories of marriage ceremonies on Earth that are said to have taken place thousands of years ago. The Ramayana tells of Rama and Sita's wedding in Treta Yuga over 800,000 years ago. Then Krishna and his many wives had elaborate marriage ceremonies at the beginning of Kali Yuga, 5,000 years ago. There was also the swayamvara ceremonies that occurred throughout Vedic history, where many men would compete to be chosen to marry the lady, (usually princesses).

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.14.18: In household life one is ordered to execute many ceremonies and fruitive activities, especially the vivaha-yajna [the marriage ceremony for sons and daughters] and the sacred thread ceremony. These are all the duties of a householder, and they are very extensive and troublesome to execute.

 

THIS is fascinating info.

 

Thanks for sharing it.

[mommaduck]

If I may respectfully disagree, marriage as we recognize it today did not begin until the late middle ages.

It began long before then.

[katilac]

If I may respectfully disagree, marriage as we recognize it today did not begin until the late middle ages.

 

Can you elaborate?