Scarlett Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 My attorney wants me to put together a list of my expenses to submit to the judge when we ask for alimony. Has anyone had to do this? I can live on almost nothing.....but my attorney says that is not the goal....the objective is to show how I WAS living before I had to kick stbxh out. I guess I will just go through my checkbook and start listing things and their costs on a monthly basis...just wondered if anyone has been through this is you have any suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom2GirlsTX Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 No, but I think your attorneys advice is quite good. I would tend to err on the high side of expenses too, as the price of everything is going up. Perhaps you could find a website devoted to expenses, etc where you could glean some ideas. Keep hanging in there.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Scarlett, something to keep in mind here is that in many divorces, the man winds up with the same high income he had before and the woman is stuck with no income or a very low income (b/c she's been running the household while he was out working up to the aforementioned high income!). I think it's a fairness issue - not that you're trying to stick him for every last penny (although it sounds to me as if you would be justified in doing so!!!), but that he shouldn't be able to continue living as he did while you're scrimping and struggling! Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayle in Guatemala Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Scarlett, something to keep in mind here is that in many divorces, the man winds up with the same high income he had before and the woman is stuck with no income or a very low income (b/c she's been running the household while he was out working up to the aforementioned high income!). I think it's a fairness issue - not that you're trying to stick him for every last penny (although it sounds to me as if you would be justified in doing so!!!), but that he shouldn't be able to continue living as he did while you're scrimping and struggling! Anne I agree with this. Also, what about health care? If you had health care during the marriage, it's a legitimate expense for you. Another thing, maintenance on the house and car is something you need to plan for--include a little each month to put aside for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 (edited) I don't know if this will help or not but here's a list of my budget catagories. Some of the are things you don't think of paying every month (car taxes) but you'd still need income to cover them once a year. If this doesn't help then just ignore. Sinking funds are things I save for each month and envelopes are things I take out in cash each month. My husband and I are Dave Ramsey fans so it's a debt-free living type budget. :001_smile: Sinking - House taxes Sinking - Car Replacement Fund & Maintenance Sinking - Car Insurance Sinking - Car Taxes Sinking - Vacation Sinking - Christmas Sinking - Gifts Sinking - Sophia School Sinking - Kids Activites Sinking - Misc Charity Sinking - Side of Beef Sinking - College Fund Tithing Internet Verizon Cell Phones Electric Gas Water Trash Service Envelope - Fuel Envelope - Entertainment Envelope - Clothing Envelope - Grocery Envelope - Blow Money Envelope - Household Envelope - Beauty Edited November 5, 2009 by aggieamy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Don't forget that when he gets remarried... any money extra will be a problem... So... Braces, Health care for your son, if your x doesn't have a job eyecare/ eyewear/ possible contacts childcare for all sorts of reasons (and if he's not there for it.. 1st right back to you??) Take care of flying and paying for tix now (in case he moves) Summer Camps The list is endless... Think of what you did as a teen and how you will need the $$$ to have yours do it. Remember that any money you have to submit to him... you have to collect... what a "PITA" and so.... try to make it so you don't have to go after him for little things :-) Carrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 When I was going through what you are going through, I didn't want to take on any legal aspect that might possibly make things take longer (like making a list of expenses) - but my attorney insisted. Everyone here has mentioned things worth mentioning -- you don't have to be Cruella Deville, but you don't have to be Goody Two Shoes either -- you were accustomed to a standard of living as stbxh's wife......you are not expected to turn into the Poor Little Match Girl. He could provide you with that standard of living because you contributed on your front (raising your son, keeping the house, cooking meals, entertaining, etc). Take your time and thoughtfully prepare what your attorney has asked you to provide him. Thoughts and prayers are with you -- I know how difficult this is! :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dominion Heather Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Take your time and make sure it is reasonable to another man... You don't want to seem unreasonable. Start praying now for a good judge. My mom went with a female attorney, who advised her to really stick it to my dad and so she tried to add in things like lawn care that they were not already paying for... my dad had been doing all of that. She ended up with child support and joint custody and NO alimony. Turns out the judge had left his wife, too. So maybe get people to look it over and make sure it doesn't seem vindictive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 Take your time and make sure it is reasonable to another man... You don't want to seem unreasonable. Start praying now for a good judge. My mom went with a female attorney, who advised her to really stick it to my dad and so she tried to add in things like lawn care that they were not already paying for... my dad had been doing all of that. She ended up with child support and joint custody and NO alimony. Turns out the judge had left his wife, too. So maybe get people to look it over and make sure it doesn't seem vindictive. Thanks all. I could never get enough money out of him to make things right. But I certainly don't want to have to scrimp while he continues with his high income. I guess what you are saying Heather is what I'm having trouble with. Oh and thanks to the poster who posted the sinking funds...I hadn't reallythought of that... Got to get with this...I am hoping it won't go to court,but if it does I only have a few weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I wish I had pursued alimony. Some additional things to consider: extracurriculars for your son training or re-education for you child care related to your re-education retirement home improvement sports equipment, registration, uniforms, belt tests (whatever, I'm thinking of my own life) health, dental and vision care is huge health/fitness club membership Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I can't recall details of if you're planning to keep homeschooling. But what about deliniating responsibilities wrt education and extracurriculars in general. Scouting Sports (lessons, uniforms, travel, registration, photos, equipment) Tutoring Testing (either standardized tests or college entrance tests) Yearbook, prom, graduation College savings (some kind of a trust fund that neither parent can draw from unless if is for the benefit of the student) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Cover your back. My mom got burned. Sister got burned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5KidzRUs Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 A piece of advice that I thought were particularly helpful is that there is always time to be nice later. Also, an anecdote ... when I was going through a divorce - the x tried to hurt me by claiming he wanted an antique couch I had bought when I was 16. He claimed it was worth $20,000. I was ready to fight him tooth and nail for my couch. My lawyer asked me to let him handle it and he smiled and agreed that it was worth that much and told the judge I would be getting half the value - $10,000 ... I ended up with the couch :001_smile: and he relented on its value. Anyway, my advice to you is that sometimes you end up getting your way by using what they are adamant about (their energy) against them ... kinda like Judo ;) I hope that all goes well for you and your children ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 A piece of advice that I thought were particularly helpful is that there is always time to be nice later. Also, an anecdote ... when I was going through a divorce - the x tried to hurt me by claiming he wanted an antique couch I had bought when I was 16. He claimed it was worth $20,000. I was ready to fight him tooth and nail for my couch. My lawyer asked me to let him handle it and he smiled and agreed that it was worth that much and told the judge I would be getting half the value - $10,000 ... I ended up with the couch :001_smile: and he relented on its value. Anyway, my advice to you is that sometimes you end up getting your way by using what they are adamant about (their energy) against them ... kinda like Judo ;) I hope that all goes well for you and your children ... Too funny. Something similar is going on with our house....he wants it sooooooo bad but is trying to value it about 40K less than its worth. So I'm like ok, 'we'll go with that value and *I* will buy it from you!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Cover your back. My mom got burned. Sister got burned. Did they have bad lawyers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMA Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 A friend of mine is in her 70s. Her husband left her about 30 years ago. She did not want a divorce. He tried to get away without giving her anything. The youngest child was in high school at the time. She got the house with the mortgage paid by him. To this day, she gets a portion of his Social Security and 401k payout, 1/2 of all of his income-earning things (real estate investments, rental income, IRAs, etc.) as alimony. Why? She got a good lawyer and happened to get a judge who sympathized with her being a SAHM all those years while he earned money. The lawyer was also forward thinking about retirement and Social Security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda1951 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 are you getting child support also? THat should include their medical and dental. DH does not have to pay for your medical. He has to pay for a roof over your kids head, clothing and food. do a google search and see what may be included in alimony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 DH does not have to pay for your medical. He has to pay for a roof over your kids head, clothing and food. Actually, child support should cover with roof, clothing and food. Alimony is designed to assist if, in the marriage, the spouse sacrificed working outside the home in order to raise children and therefore lost the years she (usually) could have worked and trained and commanded a decent salary. Getting healthcare, credit issues, building a retirement, re-training, etc ALL are severely impacted by years out of the traditional work setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Actually, child support should cover with roof, clothing and food. Alimony is designed to assist if, in the marriage, the spouse sacrificed working outside the home in order to raise children and therefore lost the years she (usually) could have worked and trained and commanded a decent salary. Getting healthcare, credit issues, building a retirement, re-training, etc ALL are severely impacted by years out of the traditional work setting. Right. It is an equalizing measure of sorts. Really has nothing to do with children or child support except that children are usually the reason she sacrificed time in the work field building up a career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 You've already received some great advice, Scarlett, but I wanted to add a few things. The most important thing you can do is make your list, and then put it aside for a day or two before you give it to your attorney. If you hand it over immediately, you'll almost certainly forget to add something important, or you'll wish you'd done things differently. Second, be sure you're not just thinking of your current situation, but, as others have mentioned, the future as well. Let's face it, if there's any way to get a few extra dollars a month from your ex, you can start saving that money for your "golden years." I know it probably seems like that's a thousand years away, but time moves quickly, and you need to look out for yourself, and especially as a homeschooling mom, you're probably not going to start making millions of dollars a year any time soon, so if you don't get the money from your ex, you'll always be living from hand to mouth, and that will get old very quickly. I agree with the poster who said you should have others look at your list and give you some feedback, and also with the person who said that you should try not to seem vindictive. There's a fine line between what is reasonable and what is greedy. If you make it look like you don't think your ex deserves to have a decent life and that you think you should get most of the money he makes, it may backfire on you. You need to ask for more than you need, but not so much that you could afford to take monthly European vacations with the extra cash. Make sure that the people who read your list aren't the ones who think you should "stick it to him" and try to get everything. You need people who will try to see both sides of the situation, even though they support your feelings. Objectivity is very important! We have a client who has been paying alimony to his ex-wife for almost 20 years, and she really took him to the cleaners in the divorce. (Personally, I think he had it coming, but I digress... ;)) She had a good attorney who was able to justify her expenses, as well as the reasoning behind those expenses, and the need for the guy to provide her with security for her future. The judge viewed her as sensible, not greedy, so she ended up getting everything she wanted. Good luck with all of this -- I know it's so stressful for you, and making this list is very difficult, but think of it as the most important piece of writing you've ever done, because it could make a huge difference in your final settlement, and in the quality of life you and your son will enjoy for years to come. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnieB Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 My attorney wants me to put together a list of my expenses to submit to the judge when we ask for alimony. Has anyone had to do this? I can live on almost nothing.....but my attorney says that is not the goal....the objective is to show how I WAS living before I had to kick stbxh out. I guess I will just go through my checkbook and start listing things and their costs on a monthly basis...just wondered if anyone has been through this is you have any suggestions. Definitely go through your checkbook and use those expenses. Remember that the judge is going to look at that figure when deciding to grant you support.....if you low ball everything to just scrapping by figures that is what you will be given. It is EXTREMELY rare for a judge to grant more than is requested. On the other hand, your ex's attorney is going to be objecting to all of your expenses, lol....so be sure that you have clear proof that these were actual expenses during the marriage. If you have the records available, go back for the last 12 months that you were living together with normal expenses. I can't recall how long you've been separated, but of course your expenses will have gone way down after he left and took all the money with him. Keep the cancelled checks, credit card statements, bank statements, copies of bills, etc. that you use to calculate all this in a folder and take it with you to the court hearing. Your attorney will go over your expenses and if any of them seem unreasonable they will work with you to make them reasonable (by the court's standards......the attorney will have a good idea of what the judge will accept. But, just like the judge, it's unlikely the attorney is going to raise the amount you provide unless it's unreasonably low, so be sure that you err on the high side, with documentation for it all). Do NOT however expect the judge to grant your high side figure.....it's the cat and mouse game of support.....your side is asking for the moon, his side is asking for dirt, and the judge has to find some happy reasonable medium that will give both of you a liveable financial statement. Be sure to include not just the regular monthly expenses, but those one time (or two or three time) a year expenses......shoes, clothes, sports, memberships, classes or testing, curriculum purchases, etc. That's why going through 12 months of expenses is a good idea, because there are lots of things that you pay once and forget about it until the next year. If you are awarded an amount that is actually larger than you truly need because you have learned to live on very little, put it away for your son's college, or your retirement.....or the next battle where attorney fees are needed. Keep in mind that he could quit or lose his job and then of course your payment won't likely arrive....so having a small nest egg to cover you then means that you aren't dragged down by his life drama. If you feel like you're asking for too much.....remember that as your son ages his expenses are going to go up.....and as you come out of this legal mess and reclaim your life you aren't going to always want to watch every penny. Your son and you deserve to live in as close to the same lifestayle as before he betrayed you. Also remember that if you later discover that you do need more money it's harder to get a raise in your support without a change of circumstances......just saying you don't want to penny pinch won't cut it. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Ok, I've been working on this for hours now. Ugh. Painful. I get tripped up on mortgage....I know what my mortgage is now, but who knows what it will be when the divorce is final...depends on what happens. And I listed all of ds's expenses too...I guess the judge will just deduct cs from my total amount of expenses to see what my portion will be? :confused: I find it very confusing. Here is my list Mortgage Actual current Mortgage Gas 70.00 Electric 140.00 Water/Waste 58.69 Telephone Internet Cable 164.00 Cell 90.00 Food Household 400.00 Health Ins. 182.00 Life Ins. 17.00 Car Ins. 50.00 Drugs 10.00 Gas for Car 140.00 Swim and Piano 120.00 Clothing 50.00 Drycleaning 25.00 Personal (hair) 45.00 Entertainment 100.00 Gifts 25.00 Donation/Charity 50.00 Weed Lawn Service 50.00 Personal Property Tax 10.00 Termite Policy 10.00 Car payment(unless I sell stocks to pay off) 225.00 Does anything look way off? Greedy? Way too low? For instance on clothes.....I only buy clothes about twice a year....but i usually spend several hundred dollars when I do. I am wondering if $600 a year might be too low for ds and myself. I usually buy him a new suit at least once a year and that is close to $100 just for that. Yeah, it is probably too low. But what do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kiddies Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Do you have to show receipts? If not I would add $100-$200 on every expense so if the judge does't grant you every dollar you are not left scrapping by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertechmom Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Have you done your financial statement forms ?? That's standard form that every one fills out around here and it lists tons of things on it. Your list is a good start. Also remember taxes. You have to pay taxes on that alimony in some states. SO make sure the amount you figure also includes the amount alimony will drop after Uncle Sam gets his cut. Or you can see if your state allows non taxable alimony and maybe use that as a bargaining chip. Is the life insurance and health insurance with or without him? You may need to shop around and see what a policy will cost you now. It could be higher. Or ask that he pay and maintain health insurance while making you the OWNER of the life insurance. As owner you would pay the life insurance but he wouldn't be able to drop it later. I've known too many who let the ex pay life insurance (if he dies support is still covered) only to find out he cancelled it at some point. Not much you can do then. How is the house being handled? My sister bargained for a set down payment amount that would be hers once the marital home sold and then they would split any remaining profit. If it failed to make that set amount, he had to come up with the difference. Some of this are things you can ask to be written into the settlement and not necessarily a part of the child support or alimony. Such as he pays for college expenses, maintains health care, car maintenance when the child gets a car as well as car payments and child's car insurance. Also, how to split insurance deductible and co pays and out of pocket. Some settlements write up school clothes (my brother doesn't pay his ex child support for clothes- he agreed to purchase what they needed instead), You won't get everything you ask for. You probably won't get the amount you go after but the attorneys ask anyway to bargain. Decided what is the most important to you that you want the most, the second most, the ones you don't care about and categorize it that way. Then the attorney is clear on what he can bargain in court with (if I remember right you two can not settle and court is deciding???) Maybe he gets the 40,000 markdown on the house but you get everything from the sale of the house or something like that. And even though you have an attorney, please remember that he isn't looking out for everything. They forget a lot of things and you will find that some things don't make it into the settlement or agreement because they just forgot. Check every piece of paper, have friends look over it, family, pastor and get as many opinions as possible. That way if something gets left out, somebody might notice it. My sis forgot to get the college financial form written into the settlement for the kid's college. Once they hit college, ex refused to fill it out. They had to get the college to work the form using what they termed the dead beat dad program. IT's a pain! But you can do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 23, 2009 Author Share Posted November 23, 2009 What is reasonable for sinking funds for home repair and car repair/replacement? Appt tomorrow at 1:30 with attorney. Getting nervous. I increased the clothing to $100 per month for ds and myself with a note that I've been a SAHM for 10 years and will need work clothes. Same with drycleaning....spend very little now...will go up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 What is reasonable for sinking funds for home repair and car repair/replacement? Appt tomorrow at 1:30 with attorney. Getting nervous. I increased the clothing to $100 per month for ds and myself with a note that I've been a SAHM for 10 years and will need work clothes. Same with drycleaning....spend very little now...will go up. With an old car I plan on about $1500 per year in maintenance and repairs. I buy used cars, and pay cash for them. About another $2000 per year to save for that would be reasonable, I think. I never seem to be able to baby cars much past the 10-12 years old point, but I get them when they are already used so I usually pay 6-8K or so for them. I'm not sure about home repair, but Suze Orman suggests that home ownership costs two times the cost of the mortgage. That seems high to me, though. I don't think your clothing figure is high enough if you are going to reenter the workforce and need professional clothing. I think you would need more than that just for yourself--remember you still have to continue to replace you casual, workout, outdoor, outerwear, and night clothes in addition to the work clothes. Also, you'll probably need some more fancy, formal clothes--for work-related parties if nothing else. And your DS's clothing requirements will only keep going up as he gets older. I would say ask for $250 per month and maybe settle for a little less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lissijane Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Wow! Can't believe that after a year away from the hive (I had to redo my name since I couldn't even remember!) that something so very similar to what I am going to be doing is being discussed. I have to say you seem to be being given golden advice. It seems to me the hardest is to come up with alimony figures. I have to say my best friend helped me the most when she said that I was right alimony is a dirty word but destitute is worse. I hadn't even thought about expenses for clothes and drycleaning being caused by the need for work. Yikes! I think though I would add a bit to my fuel bills though as those seem to reallybe rising lately. Melissa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Wow! Can't believe that after a year away from the hive (I had to redo my name since I couldn't even remember!) that something so very similar to what I am going to be doing is being discussed. I have to say you seem to be being given golden advice. It seems to me the hardest is to come up with alimony figures. I have to say my best friend helped me the most when she said that I was right alimony is a dirty word but destitute is worse. I hadn't even thought about expenses for clothes and drycleaning being caused by the need for work. Yikes! I think though I would add a bit to my fuel bills though as those seem to reallybe rising lately.Melissa Melissa, sorry you are going through this. When you say alimony is a dirty word, do you mean you feel bad for taking it? I don't. Our marriage was suppose to be a partnership. He made money and I took care of everything else. I shouldn't have to walk away with zero income while he gets to keep his high income. I hope for the best for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Scarlett:grouphug: Just want to say- as we are inventorying items from the fire we are putting in as much detail as we can. It's not about getting reimbursed for the ugly, nasty blanket with holes, it's about how are we going to replace it. Different situation, but kinda the same concept-kwim? Don't scrimp on clothes, supplies, make-up and other items if you go back to work, professional gear like laptop, etc. All the best, Girlfriend!!:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Scarlett:grouphug:Just want to say- as we are inventorying items from the fire we are putting in as much detail as we can. It's not about getting reimbursed for the ugly, nasty blanket with holes, it's about how are we going to replace it. Different situation, but kinda the same concept-kwim? Don't scrimp on clothes, supplies, make-up and other items if you go back to work, professional gear like laptop, etc. All the best, Girlfriend!!:grouphug: I gave my list to my attorney yesterday and he seemed pleased with it. I had some supporting documents for justifying sinking funds and insurance costs I will encounter. Waiting on stbxh to meet with his attorney....should be there as we speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lissijane Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Melissa, sorry you are going through this. When you say alimony is a dirty word, do you mean you feel bad for taking it? I don't. Our marriage was suppose to be a partnership. He made money and I took care of everything else. I shouldn't have to walk away with zero income while he gets to keep his high income. I hope for the best for you. Yep exactly. I know I need it but I have been feeling so badly about it. For some reason I have trouble bringing myself to want his money. I haven't worked in fifteen years and have absolutely no job skills that I can think of that would cover my expenses. It is a complete mind set thing. I am now trying to rethink it all. You are so brave. This is hard. Hope all goes well for you. Melissa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 24, 2009 Author Share Posted November 24, 2009 Yep exactly. I know I need it but I have been feeling so badly about it. For some reason I have trouble bringing myself to want his money. I haven't worked in fifteen years and have absolutely no job skills that I can think of that would cover my expenses. It is a complete mind set thing. I am now trying to rethink it all. You are so brave. This is hard. Hope all goes well for you.Melissa Me brave? Ha! I just have no choice but to put one foot in front of the other. He caused this with his adultery and he can by George pay the price of what he has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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