Public schools and religion

[Haiku]

School and I are not a good fit. My oldest has been in school since 5th grade. In her first school, the kids were traumatized when the school decided to do a Hammurabi's Code simulation, where they pretended they were going to expel kids for minor infractions of newly created (made-up) laws. Kids were freaking out and crying thinking they would be expelled for something like (for example) getting up to sharpen a pencil without asking. In the next school, they did a slavery simulation. In the school she's in now, they had the kids do a "Power Circle" that involved getting kids to step into the circle if they had experienced some emotional event. I've concluded that school and I don't fit and that I wouldn't be happy with any school. It is not possible for me to homeschool my oldest child, but I am having a ball homeschooling my youngers.

 

My daughter currently attends a college-prep school for kids who would not get to college without intensive intervention. It is a public school. It's a cooperative effort between the city's school district and a local university. The university of Catholic, but the school is PUBLIC. The school requires parents to attend monthly meetings. I went to last night's meeting and signed in. I received my program and went to sit down. On my way to my seat I noticed Bible quotes in the program, which was a parenting seminar. When I got to my seat, the leader of the seminar (a local Baptist minister, it turns out) was leading a prayer. WTH? After the prayer, he launched into his spiel, which began with a slide with a Bible quote. After about five minutes, when he got to the part about "god's plan for your relationship with your child," I walked out.

 

My dd was horrified when I came home and is afraid she will be penalized for me not attending the meeting. I told her that it is illegal for a public school to promote religion and that they cannot require me to sit through a religious presentation.

 

First of all, am I just exceedingly unlucky to have had all these negative experiences with my kid's schools?

 

And second of all, what should I say in my letter to the principal? "WTF?" doesn't seem like it would be the best approach.

 

Tara

[Mrs Mungo]

Is it a charter school? If so, they don't have the same restrictions as a regular public school.

[HRAAB]

How can this happen? Even if it is a charter school, they're still public; funded by tax dollars. I've been a part of two different charter schools, and they were always very careful to keep religion separate. A real issue since most of the students came from religious homeschooling families.

 

I would have walked out, too.

[chiguirre]

Tara, you really do have the worst luck with public schools! Do you have a parent's manual that includes the charter's rules and regulations? Does it allow for religious presentations to parents? Even if it does, I'm astonished that a Catholic university would countenance a presentation by a Baptist preacher because they're pretty far apart theologically.

 

Once you've found the relevant rules from the manual, I'd quote them in your letter. I'd send that letter to the principal, the school board and the university. If you don't get satisfaction, talk to your local ACLU and see if they can advise you or write a letter on your behalf.

 

Good (or at least better) luck!

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences. I would contact the superintendant and talk with him about the meeting and ask if this is normal for this school.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences. I would contact the superintendant and talk with him about the meeting and ask if this is normal for this school.

 

I tend to agree. I would start with finding out for sure 1. if it's normal and 2. if it's legal (I don't know enough about charter schools to know). If it were me, I would want to know I was standing on extremely firm ground before I started my fight.

[lulubelle]

My niece goes to a Catholic school in L.A. It was one of many the public school children and their families have to choose from. But, her mother and father knew about the school before her daughter applied.

[smrtmama]

The horrible public school teacher that my son had for 3rd grade (the major reason we started homeschooling) made them pray in class. I was NOT pleased. It wasn't giving them an opportunity to pray, it was telling them, "You need to pray now for xyz."

[Mommyof4ks]

The meeting was for the parents, not the kids right? I don't see the problem, we are adults and can handle a difference of opinion.

[SheWillFly]

The meeting was for the parents, not the kids right? I don't see the problem, we are adults and can handle a difference of opinion.

But the meeting was mandatory right? So even though they are adults they weren't given the freedom to not attend an even filled with religious teaching.

 

I'd scour the handbook before I made any contact. Also because it would give me time to cool off.

[PiCO]

Is it a charter school? If so, they don't have the same restrictions as a regular public school.

 

They do have the same restrictions as far as separation of church and state (as least here in Colorado.) They are free from some restrictions, such as educational philosophy and curriculum.

[tex-mex]

Is it a charter school? If so, they don't have the same restrictions as a regular public school.

 

I taught at a classical (public) Charter School for grades K-8. We were told to tone down on the Christianity -- one colleague used ABEKA worksheets for grammar and she had to white out the bible verses. Prinicpal said it was due to our receiving public monies that we had to be careful with our faith in the classroom. HTH?

 

P.S. If the meeting was mandatory -- talk with the principal. We also mandated PTA meetings, 1 hour a month in the classroom, etc. Hopefully this won't be a strike against your dd. What a mess.

Edited October 21, 2009 by tex-mex

[creekland]

Well, I don't get up and leave every time atheist views are presented at our public school... I actually like hearing what other people have to say... and their reasoning behind it. But then again, I was raised to be tolerant of others... and hopefully am teaching my children the same thing. I've never felt the need to believe along the lines of what any presenter proposes - whether math or religion or whatever.

 

Intolerance is a horrible thing IMO - no matter who it comes from.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Well, I don't get up and leave every time atheist views are presented at our public school... I actually like hearing what other people have to say... and their reasoning behind it. But then again, I was raised to be tolerant of others... and hopefully am teaching my children the same thing. I've never felt the need to believe along the lines of what any presenter proposes - whether math or religion or whatever.

 

Intolerance is a horrible thing IMO - no matter who it comes from.

 

I would be surprised that you heard atheism in a public school setting since that is a belief as well. IMHO secularism is not atheism. Instead I think of it as being neutral so as to make everyone happy and to maintain separation of church and state. I also do not think it is intolerance to be upset and leave due to mandatory religious presentation at a public school. I would have been shocked and this is not because of intolerance.

 

I just firmly believe in separation of church and state so that we do not end up with a theocracy as they have in some parts of the world. I believe in freedom of religion and separation of church and state is necessary to maintain that IMHO. I think it is much better to keep religion out of government entities and that includes public schools. I also do not see that as the downfall of our society since I believe that it is up to the parents to instill religious beliefs. I do believe that public school can instill character education and values such as honesty, caring for others, etc. as the public cyber school does that my ds attends.

[secular_mom]

The meeting was for the parents, not the kids right? I don't see the problem, we are adults and can handle a difference of opinion.

The problem is that the meeting was 'mandated' and whether parents attend will in some way affect the children's school experience (lower grade because parents don't participate? IDK). No public school figure has the 'right' to mandate attendance at a prayer/religious meeting. Period.

 

I would just call the school district and ask them about it.

[secular_mom]

Well, I don't get up and leave every time atheist views are presented at our public school... I actually like hearing what other people have to say... and their reasoning behind it. But then again, I was raised to be tolerant of others... and hopefully am teaching my children the same thing. I've never felt the need to believe along the lines of what any presenter proposes - whether math or religion or whatever.

 

Intolerance is a horrible thing IMO - no matter who it comes from.

 

I don't think it's intolerant to refuse to agree to being forced into a situation where you are going to be preached at, in the name of public education.

I think it's more intolerant of the religious folks to expect EVERY parent of a child in a PS to be happy with such a meeting, or to sit through such a meeting.

 

And 'athiest views' means different things to different people. I don't think that teachers are supposed to stand up and say "There is no God, and here's why that's a fact" (and I've never heard of any doing so, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened). Some people view the teaching of science as atheistic, but there are many religious people who have no issues with science. I would like a definition of 'atheist views', if that is possible. :)

[Tidbits of Learning]

The only place where a presentation like that would be acceptable is at a private christian school meeting. At a public school meeting, there shouldn't be an agenda of religion in any form.

It should be about the students and helping them with school not about religion.

It isn't intolerant to not want to sit through preaching or religion at a "school" meeting. It isn't church. Not one parent volunteered to go to church that night. They were mandated to go to a "school" meeting.

[msjones]

If it's a cooperative effort between a Catholic university and a public school, the Catholic part is going to show up now and then.

 

I can see why you were surprised, but if they're "cooperating", I'd expect more of the same. Must be a charter school of some sort?

[Haiku]

W

Intolerance is a horrible thing IMO - no matter who it comes from.

 

Well thanks for that.

 

I have no problem with religion at things I voluntarily attend. But when my kid's publicly funded school mandates that I sit through religious teachings, yeah, I have a problem with that. Especially when they don't inform you beforehand that it is a religious teaching.

 

Tara

[Guest Cindie2dds]

I have no problem with religion at things I voluntarily attend. But when my kid's publicly funded school mandates that I sit through religious teachings, yeah, I have a problem with that. Especially when they don't inform you beforehand that it is a religious teaching.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

[Tea Time]

I would be surprised that you heard atheism in a public school setting since that is a belief as well.IMHO secularism is not atheism. Instead I think of it as being neutral so as to make everyone happy and to maintain separation of church and state. I also do not think it is intolerance to be upset and leave due to mandatory religious presentation at a public school. I would have been shocked and this is not because of intolerance.

 

I just firmly believe in separation of church and state so that we do not end up with a theocracy as they have in some parts of the world. I believe in freedom of religion and separation of church and state is necessary to maintain that IMHO. I think it is much better to keep religion out of government entities and that includes public schools. I also do not see that as the downfall of our society since I believe that it is up to the parents to instill religious beliefs. I do believe that public school can instill character education and values such as honesty, caring for others, etc. as the public cyber school does that my ds attends.

 

Well, this ground has been covered before, but if you are going to restate your theory, then I feel it should be balanced with the counter-point. This is a very hot topic, and it is not at all my desire to inflame, just to balance. Hope I do so appropriately, because I see the mods are watching like hawks, as well they should be.

 

I think, originally, this was what everyone thought, and it seemed like a reasonable proposition. But it isn't. Children spend massive amounts of time in school, and when there is a taboo against a particular subject, whatever that might be, then that teaches something in and of itself. Why do you think that gays want to have their lifestyle taught in the schools? Because, children are not brainless; if there is a complete void of the subject, then that teaches something loud and clear.

 

We seem to be okay with taking one group out of the closet and putting another one in it. Don't believe me? Here is an example (I could give very many others) outside PS, but it works the same way, and it also shows how the taboo instilled in schools spreads to all of the culture amounting to "Separation of Church and Everything." Take a look at the most recent American Girl catalog. A company that was started on the premise of educating girls about this country now has a "holiday season" catalog that does not mention a single religious idea - not Jewish, not Muslim, not American Indian, certainly not Christian. None. (Just a whole lot of consumerism) Who is happy with that? Atheists would have good reason to be. Everyone else has to fill in the void and somehow explain why their religious view is not acceptable polite conversation.

 

There is no such thing as a neutral education. No such thing. We should either agree to allow all manner of ideas to be permitted and grow a thicker skin, or we should change the system so that people can be permitted to financially support the system that best fits their POV. Anything else is completely unfair.

 

As to the OP, as long as this educational option is not the only one available to you, you should accept that it provides a bit of diversity that is outside your comfort zone. If it is too diverse for your tastes, choose another option or homeschool. This is a position many people are finding themselves in these days. Shutting down diverse options for everyone is not a decision that supports freedom of thought or choice. Just my 2 cents while I am still allowed to have them.

[creekland]

Perhaps I am understanding this meeting incorrectly. I'm assuming the speaker was a 'one time' deal for this monthly meeting and there are others at other monthly meetings... I'd have no problem at all with any one speaker having and promoting his/her views at any one monthly meeting whether they be religious (any religion including atheism) or educational (a certain type of teaching) or motivational. It IS intolerance to expect every speaker to not step on anyone's toes. Tolerance is listening to views politely then feeling free to agree to disagree if that is the case. Many people feel it is 'fine' in any aspect except religious. I disagree. IF it's the same speaker every month and the same tactic every month, THEN I would feel it is inappropriate.

 

In our school (public high school - I teach there) we occasionally get parents who complain about the teaching of evolution, Jewish Seders, Paul's journeys and advance of Christianity, Mohammad and the advance of Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism and probably one or two I'm not thinking of. Oh wait, I forgot the student research and presentations. We have students who pick their own topics from pro gay marriage to creationism vs evolution (and everything in between) and do a quick overview to the class of their paper. When teachers do the teaching of the former things, they usually have experts in their field come in to talk to the class - like, say - a Jewish Rabbi or they watch a film on it. The kids do their own thing based on a topic that interests them. In either case, the whole class increases their education.

 

Our admin has come up with a great answer to the parents who complain... 'If you only want your child to see and experience your views, homeschool them. A public school should expose them to a variety of different things that are out there.' Fortunately, the kids seldom complain. The next generation may be getting more tolerant than their parents - or maybe those that aren't are being homeschooled. :)

[asta]

Perhaps I am understanding this meeting incorrectly. I'm assuming the speaker was a 'one time' deal for this monthly meeting and there are others at other monthly meetings... I'd have no problem at all with any one speaker having and promoting his/her views at any one monthly meeting whether they be religious (any religion including atheism) or educational (a certain type of teaching) or motivational. It IS intolerance to expect every speaker to not step on anyone's toes. Tolerance is listening to views politely then feeling free to agree to disagree if that is the case. Many people feel it is 'fine' in any aspect except religious. I disagree. IF it's the same speaker every month and the same tactic every month, THEN I would feel it is inappropriate.

 

In our school (public high school - I teach there) we occasionally get parents who complain about the teaching of evolution, Jewish Seders, Paul's journeys and advance of Christianity, Mohammad and the advance of Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism and probably one or two I'm not thinking of. Oh wait, I forgot the student research and presentations. We have students who pick their own topics from pro gay marriage to creationism vs evolution (and everything in between) and do a quick overview to the class of their paper. When teachers do the teaching of the former things, they usually have experts in their field come in to talk to the class - like, say - a Jewish Rabbi or they watch a film on it. The kids do their own thing based on a topic that interests them. In either case, the whole class increases their education.

 

Our admin has come up with a great answer to the parents who complain... 'If you only want your child to see and experience your views, homeschool them. A public school should expose them to a variety of different things that are out there.' Fortunately, the kids seldom complain. The next generation may be getting more tolerant than their parents - or maybe those that aren't are being homeschooled. :)

 

I think you are interpreting the meeting incorrectly. From Tara's post:

 

My daughter currently attends a college-prep school for kids who would not get to college without intensive intervention. It is a public school. It's a cooperative effort between the city's school district and a local university. The university of Catholic, but the school is PUBLIC. The school requires parents to attend monthly meetings. I went to last night's meeting and signed in. I received my program and went to sit down. On my way to my seat I noticed Bible quotes in the program, which was a parenting seminar. When I got to my seat, the leader of the seminar (a local Baptist minister, it turns out) was leading a prayer. WTH? After the prayer, he launched into his spiel, which began with a slide with a Bible quote. After about five minutes, when he got to the part about "god's plan for your relationship with your child," I walked out.

 

This is a public school (eg: government funded) requiring a parent to attend a parenting seminar as a condition of enrollment for their child. And this *parenting seminar* is not only religious in nature, it is of a *specific* religion.

 

Were this seminar to discuss the role of faith in strengthening families, and therefore their parenting (faith, any faith - faith in one's own value set), I sincerely doubt Tara would have had a problem with it. But it didn't.

 

I don't even like the ACLU and I'd give 'em a call.

 

 

a

[PineFarmMom]

Wow. I've never had a post deleted before. :lol: Looks like I went to bed at the wrong time!

[Haiku]

Tolerance is listening to views politely then feeling free to agree to disagree if that is the case.

 

Tolerance is not foisting your religious views on a captive audience at taxpayers' expense.

 

you should accept that it provides a bit of diversity that is outside your comfort zone. If it is too diverse for your tastes, choose another option or homeschool. This is a position many people are finding themselves in these days. Shutting down diverse options for everyone is not a decision that supports freedom of thought or choice.

 

I don't have a problem with diversity at all. I have intentionally chosen a lifestyle that exposes myself and my children to a wealth of diversity in religion, race, culture, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, ethical principle, etc. Indeed, I homeschool in part so that my children will be exposed to more than what's offered in the public schools. Acceptance of diversity does not, however, translate into acceptance of being mandated to sit through a religious meeting at my child's public school school. (For those who feel that a Christian parenting seminar is the inevitable outcome of a school in partnership with a Catholic university, I will point out that this is a PUBLIC school. It is part of the [MyCityHere] Public Schools.)

 

I do not wish to sit through a Christian parenting program. I would not go on my own, and the school has no right to require that I be there. The school has no right to promote religion (which is different than teaching kids about religion ... promoting is telling people that one religion is better or that one's children should be parented according to a specific religious doctrine). In real life, if I don't agree with or am made uncomfortable by what I am hearing, I can leave. The school is attempting to curtail that freedom by making a religious meeting mandatory.

 

I would feel the same if I went to a "school" meeting and was told how to vote or what to believe about abortion, etc (even if I agreed with what I was told). This is in no way the purview of the public school.

 

Tara

Edited October 22, 2009 by TaraTheLiberator

[creekland]

Tolerance is not foisting your religious views on a captive audience at taxpayers' expense.

 

 

 

If it was a Baptist speaker at a Catholic supported school, they were hardly foisting their religious views at that meeting... but I digress. I would agree that opening with a prayer wasn't 'right.'

 

 

If you knew me (which I realize you don't), you would understand why this is an absurd thing to say to me. I have no problem with diversity.

 

I didn't say that part to you... that was a different poster.

 

 

I do not wish to sit through a Christian parenting program. I would not go on my own, and the school has no right to require that I be there. The school has no right to promote religion (which is different than teaching kids about religion ... promoting is telling people that one religion is better or that one's children should be parented according to a specific religious doctrine).

 

 

I didn't get the feeling from your post that they were promoting a religion here - and if they were, it was certainly one that is DIFFERENT than their own. But... I wasn't there. Of course, you weren't either after the first 5 minutes... If they were telling people to come to their church, to confess their sins, to accept God in their way, then yes, I'd agree with you. That's completely wrong in that situation. I got the impression they were dealing with the 'spiritual' relationship some people choose to have with God and their kids and how it affected learning/life. This is something others might have liked hearing about, but you didn't. You were offended and left. Perhaps my impression is wrong.

 

 

I would feel the same if I went to a "school" meeting and was told how to vote or what to believe about abortion, etc (even if I agreed with what I was told). This is in no way the purview of the public school.

 

 

 

Umm... this happens ALL the TIME - esp in a political year... and from both sides pending the views of the teacher/speaker... esp on the abortion issue (more pro than con in my experience). It's rare that a student doesn't know how their teachers are voting and why. It might be less common in parent meetings mainly because parents are less open to the ideas of others and teachers tend to be wary of being 'offensive,' but as I said before, kids usually are more tolerant.

 

Tolerance is not agreeing everyone is right. Tolerance is not saying everyone has to hide their views so people don't get offended. Tolerance is allowing others to have/share their views (even in public) and being polite. It doesn't matter if it's religious, political or whether one likes broccoli or not.

[Haiku]

Tolerance is not agreeing everyone is right. Tolerance is not saying everyone has to hide their views so people don't get offended. Tolerance is allowing others to have/share their views (even in public) and being polite. It doesn't matter if it's religious, political or whether one likes broccoli or not.

 

So basically what you are saying is that I am in the wrong/intolerant for not staying to listen to someone talk about how god and Bible verses should inform my parenting? And it's fine for a publicly funded school to mandate such a program? And that's not promoting religion?

 

Ok, it's clear that we simply disagree.

 

This is something others might have liked hearing about,

 

Rock on for them. Advertise the event as an opportunity, not a requirement, and let parents decide whether they would like to attend.

 

For the record, when my dd's math teacher told the kids last year that abortion is wrong (a view with which I agree) I sent a letter to the school expressing my concern about a teaching pushing his religious/political agenda).

 

Tara

[asta]

If it was a Baptist speaker at a Catholic supported school, they were hardly foisting their religious views at that meeting... but I digress. I would agree that opening with a prayer wasn't 'right.'

 

Not to make too fine of a point of all of this, but I think you may need to re-read the original post.

 

It was not a "Catholic supported" school. It is "a cooperative effort between the city's school district and a local university" - and the university happens to be Catholic.

 

Cooperative effort does not equal supported. Supported implies funding. Cooperation implies "hey, school district, here is what a university of our caliber expects out of a college preparatory program - and, wow, lookee here - we have all of these great resources available (library, science labs, intro math and eng. courses that jr. and sr. high schoolers could take concurrently, etc.), perhaps it would be a great thing for our community if we pooled the available resources instead of reinventing the wheel."

 

Or perhaps I'm mistaken. It happens often.

 

 

a

[lionfamily1999]

So, the University is helping the school by creating a college prep course for students who need intervention?

 

The public school then sends students (for free?) to the Catholic University, where the Catholic University will prepare them to enter college?

 

Is this required? Do the kids have to do this, or could they continue on at the high school? If they chose not to attend would they be forced to drop out of school entirely? If they fail at the university can they return to the high school?

 

Is it a sort of community work thing the university is doing to help these kids? Is the university getting public funding for this?

 

Is the public school paying the university?

 

IOW, how is the university being reimbursed for teaching these kids?

[unsinkable]

While reading this thread this morning I was wondering if this is what people feel like when they got V mail that had sections that were censored/blacked out during WW II? :lol:

[Haiku]

So, the University is helping the school by creating a college prep course for students who need intervention?

 

The public school then sends students (for free?) to the Catholic University, where the Catholic University will prepare them to enter college?

 

Is this required? Do the kids have to do this, or could they continue on at the high school? If they chose not to attend would they be forced to drop out of school entirely? If they fail at the university can they return to the high school?

 

Is it a sort of community work thing the university is doing to help these kids? Is the university getting public funding for this?

 

Is the public school paying the university?

 

IOW, how is the university being reimbursed for teaching these kids?

 

The school is a partnership. The university does not directly teach the kids. The university allows the school to use some of its facilities and sends some of its college students to help out with programs at the school. The students may begin, their sophomore year, to take college classes for dual credit. They do NOT take these classes at the Catholic university (whose tuition is too expensive). They take them at the local community college. The program is not required. You apply to get in. It is one of the (many) high school options offered by the [MyCityHere] Public Schools. The university receives no public funds for the school. The school is funded both by the regular public school formula and by extra funding the school has raised. Some of this money comes from the Catholic university, but it is NOT a parochial or private school. It is a city school district school.

 

It's no different than if your local public school required you to attend a meeting and then told you to use the Bible in parenting your kids. It's not legal.

 

My husband and I did agree to attend the monthly parenting meetings, but at no point was it ever indicated that these would include religious meetings.

 

Tara

[lionfamily1999]

The school is a partnership. The university does not directly teach the kids. The university allows the school to use some of its facilities and sends some of its college students to help out with programs at the school. The students may begin, their sophomore year, to take college classes for dual credit. They do NOT take these classes at the Catholic university (whose tuition is too expensive). They take them at the local community college. The program is not required. You apply to get in. It is one of the (many) high school options offered by the [MyCityHere] Public Schools. The university receives no public funds for the school. The school is funded both by the regular public school formula and by extra funding the school has raised. Some of this money comes from the Catholic university, but it is NOT a parochial or private school. It is a city school district school.

 

It's no different than if your local public school required you to attend a meeting and then told you to use the Bible in parenting your kids. It's not legal.

 

My husband and I did agree to attend the monthly parenting meetings, but at no point was it ever indicated that these would include religious meetings.

 

Tara

I'm not understanding why you would have to attend a meeting there at all. If all they do is supply equipment and tutors, then why would you have to go there at all :confused: Especially when they aren't actually offering classes.

 

I can understand, somewhat, the idea of give and take, we give you supplies and man power, you give us attention once a month, but I can't understand why your ps would be alright with this.

 

IOW, if it's a Catholic University, then I'm not surprised they would have religion as part of their recommendations, but I can't understand why a public school would be willing to go along with it. I would definitely speak with whomever is the coordinator or liason between the schools, express my displeasure, and (imo) remove the child from their classes. If it's already in place and agreements have been signed, I can't see where they'd change the program, but you sound like you're less than happy ;) so if I were you, I'd take her out.

[fivetails]

A school *can* be public AND faith based/whatever...we have them. There are two school boards in our town -- the "Public" board and the "Catholic" board. They run two different groups of schools -- both BOTH are public, meaning anyone can attend either. The Catholic schools are not private schools, there's no tuition/etc - and you don't even have to be Catholic.

 

If you do choose to send your child to one of the schools under the Catholic board (and many do), they're going to be exposed to Catholic beliefs. There is morning prayer and lots of signs of Catholicism around the school.

 

They ARE "public schools" though, not private.

 

Just thought I'd mention it...was thinking about it through this thread..

 

Oh and someone told me that when you own a house (we've never owned a house, just rent) you choose which board you want to pay school taxes to...or something like that. I don't know how all that stuff works.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Atheism is a belief? :blink: Heh, who knew.

 

It does seem ironic;) But from my point of view some believe in a godhead or gods or godesses or great spirit, etc. Then some do not believe in a godhead, so in this sense it is a belief as are the others previously mentioned:).

[dangermom]

A school *can* be public AND faith based/whatever...we have them.

Many countries do have faith based public schools. The US is not supposed to be one of them, and the incident was inappropriate.

[fivetails]

A school *can* be public AND faith based/whatever...we have them. <snip>

 

Many countries do have faith based public schools. The US is not supposed to be one of them, and the incident was inappropriate.

 

Never said it was. ;)

 

I was just explaining how the system works in our current province (and not all of our country is that way) because the thread had me thinking of it.

 

I don't have a dog in this race. :)

[fivetails]

Yeah but is not believing in something that has never been proven a belief?

 

Guess it depends on how you word it...

 

 

Person A says: "I don't believe in a deity" --- stating a LACK of belief

 

 

Person B says "I believe there is no deity" --- stating a belief

 

Or better yet, Person B says "I believe the earth started with a bang" -- definitely stating a belief there.

 

 

Maybe? I dunno. Two of my parents are Atheists, but I've never asked them if they consider it a 'belief' or not...

[Haiku]

I'm not understanding why you would have to attend a meeting there at all.

 

The school is housed in a university building. I was not going "to the university," I was going "to the school." That is part of the cooperation, that the school uses university facilities. BUT it is part of the LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRCT. :)

 

Tara

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yeah but is not believing in something that has never been proven a belief?

You have a point:) However, I do not think any of them can be proven;) IMHO I think it is a leap of faith for any of them. But that is just my crazy idea;).

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think, originally, this was what everyone thought, and it seemed like a reasonable proposition. But it isn't. Children spend massive amounts of time in school, and when there is a taboo against a particular subject, whatever that might be, then that teaches something in and of itself. Why do you think that gays want to have their lifestyle taught in the schools? Because, children are not brainless; if there is a complete void of the subject, then that teaches something loud and clear.

I do not see it as a taboo, just as being neutral. If we allow the teaching of religion in the schools, then what religion or flavor of Christianity shall we pick? How about mine;)? I have some beliefs in inclusive Christianity, Buddhism, Native American Spirituality, and Wiccan/Paganism. Is it OK with you if we have all of the public schools start indoctrinating the kids with my beliefs?

 

I believe there is plenty of time outside of schools to teach whatever beliefs you want to teach your children. I do believe schools should teach character education such as kindness, respect, consideration, manners, etc. I also believe world religion classes should be taught to all children in public school since religion has had a great impact on history and our current lives.

 

In regards to gays, I am not so sure they want there life-style taught in the schools. IMHO I think they want tolerance taught which is not a bad idea. I do not think this should be brought up in younger grades such possibily as K-4 though. I do think tolerance should be taught since I have many gay friends who were tormented because of their sexual orientation:( I have also read of many gays being being bullied, beaten, or killed because of who they were. How sad is that?I also firmly believe that one does not choose to be gay; I believe that one is born gay or straight, but that is a topic for another thread;)

 

 

We seem to be okay with taking one group out of the closet and putting another one in it. Don't believe me? Here is an example (I could give very many others) outside PS, but it works the same way, and it also shows how the taboo instilled in schools spreads to all of the culture amounting to "Separation of Church and Everything." Take a look at the most recent American Girl catalog. A company that was started on the premise of educating girls about this country now has a "holiday season" catalog that does not mention a single religious idea - not Jewish, not Muslim, not American Indian, certainly not Christian. None. (Just a whole lot of consumerism) Who is happy with that? Atheists would have good reason to be. Everyone else has to fill in the void and somehow explain why their religious view is not acceptable polite conversation.

The American Girl example does not make sense to me. That is a private company and they are free to market any kind of doll they want so as it is not illegal. I think it makes great business sense to market to a wider audience;). Also, our country from I understand was founded on the idea of religious freedom and I believe that our founding fathers believed in separation of church and state.

 

 

There is no such thing as a neutral education. No such thing. We should either agree to allow all manner of ideas to be permitted and grow a thicker skin, or we should change the system so that people can be permitted to financially support the system that best fits their POV. Anything else is completely unfair.

Again, what religion shall we coose to be taught in the public schools. How about the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion;)?

I also think that if a predominately Christian community decides they want to support public schools that teach Christianity, then what flavor shall we choose? There are many, many different denominations of Christianity and I am sure that we could not find one that pleased everyone in that community. Also, there are bound to be those who do not subscribe to Christianity. Do we just leave them out in the cold?

 

 

As to the OP, as long as this educational option is not the only one available to you, you should accept that it provides a bit of diversity that is outside your comfort zone. If it is too diverse for your tastes, choose another option or homeschool. This is a position many people are finding themselves in these days. Shutting down diverse options for everyone is not a decision that supports freedom of thought or choice. Just my 2 cents while I am still allowed to have them.

 

I think we would risk freedom of thought and choice if we allow a particular religion to be taught in public schools since then there would be those who would fell like that they could not express their ideas. I truly believe that religious freedom and separation of church and state preserves our freedoms.

 

 

My opinions are expressed in blue:)

Edited October 22, 2009 by priscilla
spelling

[Guest Cindie2dds]

Soap Box:

 

Separation between church (of *any* kind) and State is a fundamental freedom upon which this Nation was founded. If the meeting was not voluntary and there were State/Federal funds involved, it was inappropriate.

 

Off Soap Box.

 

Tara, I hope you get this resolved so there won't be a next time.

 

ETA: Our local public school ran out of room and the closest building was the local Baptist Church. They held second grade in there for an entire year. I would have been *highly* offended and made a big fuss about it even though I am a Christian. I couldn't imagine holding public school in a Mosque or Synagogue, that wouldn't have lasted one day here.

 

Just another reason I homeschool ;)

Edited October 22, 2009 by Cindie2dds

[Haiku]

Everyone else has to fill in the void

 

Which is, after all, a parent's job.

 

and somehow explain why their religious view is not acceptable polite conversation.

 

 

In our house the conversation goes something like, "Not everyone shares our religious beliefs, so it's best that we only discuss them with people who share them or ask about them because religion is very personal."

 

I have never understood the idea that the world at large needs to be actively promoting our religion of choice or our kids will suffer. Perhaps one needs to be a member of a minority religion to really get that kids can thrive in their religious beliefs even if they are not widely reinforced in society.

 

Tara

[Kathleen in VA]

The only place where a presentation like that would be acceptable is at a private christian school meeting. At a public school meeting, there shouldn't be an agenda of religion in any form.

It should be about the students and helping them with school not about religion.

It isn't intolerant to not want to sit through preaching or religion at a "school" meeting. It isn't church. Not one parent volunteered to go to church that night. They were mandated to go to a "school" meeting.

 

:iagree: Although I think it is virtually impossible to eliminate all religious bias in a school setting simply because all the players are human and may slip once in a while, I still think every effort should be made to stay focused on the educational issues and there should certainly not be any promotion of a particular religious point of view.

 

I also wouldn't have a problem with my child being taught about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. as long as Christianity was not omitted and as long as the presentation was merely factual and did not involve acting out any of these faith's practices. I mean, they are all a part of our world and it seems silly to pretend that religion doesn't exist for the sake of separation of church and state. As long as no one is trying to promote one over the other, I can only imagine that learning about all these faiths would be helpful. But no one should have to sit through a mandatory meeting of a public school and listen to the leader promote a specific religious pov. And I'm a Baptist!

[msjones]

My guess is that this was the result of some laziness on the planner's part. Perhaps Someone had heard this speaker elsewhere (presumable at a church event) and thought he was worthwhile.

 

That Someone then spoke up at a planning meeting and offered to arrange a training with him for the school.

 

That Someone forgot/overlooked the biblical parts of the presentation, and went ahead and scheduled him.

 

You got stuck with him.

 

And, I'll bet there school/PTA folks' jaws dropping when the Bible verses went up. But, by leaving early, you missed out on the conversation with other disturbed parents after the closing prayer. ;)

[Haiku]

And, I'll bet there school/PTA folks' jaws dropping when the Bible verses went up.

 

I don't know. He mentioned that this was his third year speaking at the school.

 

For the record, I don't fault the pastor. He was just doing what the school hired him to do.

 

Tara

[Daisy]

Although I think it is virtually impossible to eliminate all religious bias in a school setting simply because all the players are human and may slip once in a while, I still think every effort should be made to stay focused on the educational issues and there should certainly not be any promotion of a particular religious point of view.

 

I also wouldn't have a problem with my child being taught about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. as long as Christianity was not omitted and as long as the presentation was merely factual and did not involve acting out any of these faith's practices. I mean, they are all a part of our world and it seems silly to pretend that religion doesn't exist for the sake of separation of church and state. As long as no one is trying to promote one over the other, I can only imagine that learning about all these faiths would be helpful. But no one should have to sit through a mandatory meeting of a public school and listen to the leader promote a specific religious pov. And I'm a Baptist!

 

:iagree:

 

Well, not about the Baptist part since I'm Reformed, but I agree with the rest. LOL. And I home educate for religious reasons so I'm not content to have my children only learn the above but I definitely agree that public schools should try and stick to that. I would have been very upset to have attended a public school meeting where Muslim prayers were being said or Hindu ideologies expressed to me. I expect public school sanctioned events to be neutral.

[creekland]

So basically what you are saying is that I am in the wrong/intolerant for not staying to listen to someone talk about how god and Bible verses should inform my parenting? And it's fine for a publicly funded school to mandate such a program? And that's not promoting religion?

 

 

 

I would agree with the intolerant part and it doesn't bug me in the least that tax dollars would be used for it - other than the prayer part - AS LONG AS it wasn't actually teaching about the specifics of the religion, but rather, the spiritual side of education. I do not see that as promoting religion.

 

I've been in many situations where I've disagreed with a speaker - intensely at times - in school and otherwise. I've yet to get up and walk out. I firmly believe in freedom of speech - and tolerance - in all situations.

 

But then again, while I might disagree with people, it's almost impossible to offend me... I'd even be amused at a naked speaker... (and disagree that it's appropriate, but I wouldn't have left. I'd have been intrigued to hear what he/she had to say).

 

 

Ok, it's clear that we simply disagree.

 

 

 

Fine by me.

 

 

For the record, when my dd's math teacher told the kids last year that abortion is wrong (a view with which I agree) I sent a letter to the school expressing my concern about a teaching pushing his religious/political agenda).

 

Tara

 

My kids have teachers explain both sides to them... and I am glad they hear it from both sides so they can process the info themselves.

 

Have you ever seen or heard of what happens in universities? (public as well as private) The world is out there. People have their views. They are free to express them. While I personally think your walking out didn't reflect well on you I FULLY respect your right to have done so to match your beliefs. I do have problems with you forcing your beliefs and ideas of what is right or acceptable on the rest of the population just because you don't agree with it. Perhaps a better solution would be to ask to be advised if there are going to be any religious intonations in meetings in the future and see if you can be exempt from them since it bothers you. In our public school parents can have their kids opt out of any class they don't want taught. Chances are that it's legal for parents with required meetings too.

 

I very seriously hate the way this country is going - that so much is getting restricted due to 'offending' people. It's not right and it doesn't matter if it's political, religious, PETA or otherwise. Period.

 

If this meeting was teaching religion - not spiritual side of education and family, but actual religion - how to become Baptist or something to that effect, then they were wrong. Opening with a prayer MIGHT be wrong (but it might not if it were non-denominational, etc). Forcing anyone to pray would have been wrong.

 

Again, I can only say I'm glad the next generation appears to be getting more tolerant than those before it... at least, in our school.

[Haiku]

I do have problems with you forcing your beliefs and ideas of what is right or acceptable on the rest of the population just because you don't agree with it.

 

Eh? Where have I done that? I did not stand up and make a scene. I haven't even contacted the school. I simply left, and no one there even knows why I did (if they even noticed that I did). How is that me forcing my beliefs on others? Unless you think me even discussing it here is "forcing: my beliefs?The law is on my side, btw: public schools can't promote religion, and I fail to see how a speaker at a school even telling me how to use the Bible to raise my kids is not promoting religion.

 

Tara

[lionfamily1999]

The school is housed in a university building. I was not going "to the university," I was going "to the school." That is part of the cooperation, that the school uses university facilities. BUT it is part of the LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRCT. :)

 

Tara

This whole situation seems messed up, imo. What are they doing, then, housing the school in a Catholic University? Like the pp that mentioned a ps having 2nd grade at the local Baptist Church... what in the world?

 

I don't believe the university is at fault, at all. Their religion is pretty clear (Catholic/Christian). The ps, however, does not seem to have thought this through at all.

[asta]

I would agree with the intolerant part and it doesn't bug me in the least that tax dollars would be used for it - other than the prayer part - AS LONG AS it wasn't actually teaching about the specifics of the religion, but rather, the spiritual side of education. I do not see that as promoting religion.

 

I've been in many situations where I've disagreed with a speaker - intensely at times - in school and otherwise. I've yet to get up and walk out. I firmly believe in freedom of speech - and tolerance - in all situations.

 

But then again, while I might disagree with people, it's almost impossible to offend me... I'd even be amused at a naked speaker... (and disagree that it's appropriate, but I wouldn't have left. I'd have been intrigued to hear what he/she had to say).

 

 

 

Fine by me.

 

 

 

My kids have teachers explain both sides to them... and I am glad they hear it from both sides so they can process the info themselves.

 

Have you ever seen or heard of what happens in universities? (public as well as private) The world is out there. People have their views. They are free to express them. While I personally think your walking out didn't reflect well on you I FULLY respect your right to have done so to match your beliefs. I do have problems with you forcing your beliefs and ideas of what is right or acceptable on the rest of the population just because you don't agree with it. Perhaps a better solution would be to ask to be advised if there are going to be any religious intonations in meetings in the future and see if you can be exempt from them since it bothers you. In our public school parents can have their kids opt out of any class they don't want taught. Chances are that it's legal for parents with required meetings too.

 

I very seriously hate the way this country is going - that so much is getting restricted due to 'offending' people. It's not right and it doesn't matter if it's political, religious, PETA or otherwise. Period.

 

If this meeting was teaching religion - not spiritual side of education and family, but actual religion - how to become Baptist or something to that effect, then they were wrong. Opening with a prayer MIGHT be wrong (but it might not if it were non-denominational, etc). Forcing anyone to pray would have been wrong.

 

Again, I can only say I'm glad the next generation appears to be getting more tolerant than those before it... at least, in our school.

 

Except this one.

 

 

 

 

 

(eh... might as well get banned - I've been spending too much time here anyway...)