Ravin Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Days like today seem to be becoming typical: I got home from work, and she was up so we talked about what we were going to do for the day. I had to pay some bills, so she decided to make a calendar page based on what was in a library book we'd read the day before. Once she was done with that, she helped herself to a pop tart for breakfast, and announced she was ready to start school. So far, so good, right? She said she wanted to start with reading, which was good because we didn't get to it the day before. We agreed that I'd read to her then she to me. But by the time I finished the library book she'd picked for me to read to her, she had changed her mind. She threw a fit and landed in time-out when I tried to insist. After her time-out, she agreed to do Latin instead. We did a review, but when I suggested we review the songs (usually her favorite part), she started fussing and then landed her self in time-out again. I called Latin done for the day, and after that time-out, she said she'd be willing to do phonics instead. She squirmed and fussed and said she couldn't concentrate. A few temper tantrums later, we finally got phonics done. By this time, "school" had lasted almost 2 hours, most of it with DD in time out. She'd lost herself two hours of TV this afternoon by not going to time-out when told, as well. We skipped math and handwriting because she was ahead of schedule in those, but I had to threaten to take away basketball practice on Saturday if she didn't buckle down. We finally got history and Heathen Studies (mostly me reading to her) done, and I let her go out and play for 20 minutes before I had to go to bed. She came right back in, complaining that all the kids had gone inside (the local PS is on fall break this week so they've been out there a lot). What gives? Can I just chalk it up to me trying to get her to buckle down when everyone else is out playing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldjoy Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 How old is she? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialmama Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Days like today seem to be becoming typical: I got home from work, and she was up so we talked about what we were going to do for the day. I had to pay some bills, so she decided to make a calendar page based on what was in a library book we'd read the day before. Once she was done with that, she helped herself to a pop tart for breakfast, and announced she was ready to start school. So far, so good, right? She said she wanted to start with reading, which was good because we didn't get to it the day before. We agreed that I'd read to her then she to me. But by the time I finished the library book she'd picked for me to read to her, she had changed her mind. She threw a fit and landed in time-out when I tried to insist. After her time-out, she agreed to do Latin instead. We did a review, but when I suggested we review the songs (usually her favorite part), she started fussing and then landed her self in time-out again. I called Latin done for the day, and after that time-out, she said she'd be willing to do phonics instead. She squirmed and fussed and said she couldn't concentrate. A few temper tantrums later, we finally got phonics done. By this time, "school" had lasted almost 2 hours, most of it with DD in time out. She'd lost herself two hours of TV this afternoon by not going to time-out when told, as well. We skipped math and handwriting because she was ahead of schedule in those, but I had to threaten to take away basketball practice on Saturday if she didn't buckle down. We finally got history and Heathen Studies (mostly me reading to her) done, and I let her go out and play for 20 minutes before I had to go to bed. She came right back in, complaining that all the kids had gone inside (the local PS is on fall break this week so they've been out there a lot). What gives? Can I just chalk it up to me trying to get her to buckle down when everyone else is out playing? Sounds like she's manipulating you. Every time she has a tantrum, you concede, cave, close the books, bargain with her. Sure, she gets a time out, but you need to carry through with whatever you were doing, once she's calm. Finish the activity, bring closure to it, then move on to something else. Try stating what you expect of her calmly, then waiting with zero reaction, or walking away and get busy doing something. Stay consistant, these are the trying years, but your consistency will pay off HUGE later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Once time out was over that reading book needed to come back. That was the agreement, time out doesn't get her out of it. If she had another fit, then it would be time out again and then reading book again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 After her time-out, she agreed to do Latin instead. ..... after that time-out, she said she'd be willing to do phonics instead. Despite fit and time out, she still gets to put her two cents in. Even if it is tiring to you, if the task is age and level appropriate, she goes back to it after her time out. You are telling her she gets to switch to something she prefers after pitching a fit and having a time out. No wonder she does it! In her child's mind, this is how she moves in the direction she wants to go. I tell kiddo when I get home from work: we are starting at X time. Math first. However, if he hasn't had enough exercise yet, he gets that first. No point in striking when the iron is cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Bear Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 In addition to the wise words above, I'd vote for the pop tart as culprit. My kids nosedive if they sit down to school without some kind of protein in them and would absolutely be circling the drain if they'd just eaten a pastry. I remember reading once that SWB gave her boys spoons full of PB: "disgusting, but it does the trick." My experience mirrors that. I also keep veggie sausage patties, cheese, cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, and even protein bars and whey powder on hand for just this purpose. With carrot sticks and apples/pears/whatever on hand as well, they can keep themselves well-fueled for quite a stretch without interrupting the flow of a good day's work for a bigger meal prep. A big drink of water is also routine here -- even if the substances themselves didn't work, the rhythm and ritual of prepping for school helps them to adjust their little heads into the proper mode. HTH. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Your daughter has learned that at least much of the time, if she throws a fit, she gets her way. It sounds like she didn't with the phonics, that you did the time out and came back to the phonics, but for the Reading and Latin, she didn't have to do it after she got in trouble. The inconsistency makes it worth trying because regularly, she'll "win" (we all know that by winning, she's really losing both academically and discipline-wise). She needs to know that no matter what, she will do what you choose for her to do (it is fine, with most kids, for you to let her have an opinion but you must stick with it once you agree. For SOME kids, that is just too much and doomed for failure. Some kids NEED you to be in more control giving them a limited choice or just deciding). Anyway, once you consistently enforce doing a subject, she will quit throwing fits about it. The first week might be a little worse, but she'll come around when she realizes momma has a backbone and isn't gonna give in to buggerschnottiness :) One thing you might want to do differently with time out is not have it be punitive, but in order to help her. I don't know which you do now, but just a consideration. Once every week or two, something is off with Gregory. I think it was Tuesday when it happened. I simply told him he could go sit out until he was ready to come back and do his work with a good attitude. He was glad for the time out. He waited a few minutes, came and sat down, and knocked the work out. Sometimes *I* need a time out of that sort too so it makes sense that he would. But I don't offer that every time. Many times, I just let the built in logical consequence reign. The longer it takes for you to get your morning work done, the longer til we get to take a walk. Sometimes our walk gets pushed out of the schedule as I only have Goo so long each day since he's not my kiddo. This is probably closer to your situation (needing to get to sleep) than when parents can let things push later in the day because they have a longer day with kiddos. Anyway, I think your main issue will be handled if you just beef up your discipline. Seriously, I don't get to choose 7minutes in time out over my responsibilities and she shouldn't be allowed to either. IRL, many things can't just be indefinitely pushed to the back burner in favor of a break instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I don't "suggest" or "ask" my first grader what they want to do for school. I tell him (and the 3rd grader). Occasionally I'll ask if they want to do LA or reading next - but that's about the extent of choice in homeschool. Even that's pretty rare. I feel that kids at this age need structure and leadership and that too many choices are hard for them to process. I also fell that letting kids make too many decisions (real ones - not freedom to pick what to wear, etc.) make them wise in their own eyes and they think they are in charge. I give tons of latitude where I can - and we have lots of freedoms here - but school isn't one of those areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I agree with the others: I immediately noticed that after her time-out she got her way. Sounds like you want school to be gentle and a good experience for her, so you let her pick the subject so that you're both in a good mood going into it. However, once the subject starts your dd realizes that she doesn't feel like doing it anymore, so she throws a fit so that you move on to something else. As the adult, you realize this is not going to work. She won't really learn anything if she throws a fit and gives up before you've managed to actually study anything. So, you'll have to make a change. Sounds like you might not be able to let her lead at this age. Perhaps when she's older and has learned how to push through a little bit of frustration and is willing to see each subject to the end. (This might not be until she's years older.) So, you need a compromise. Let her pick the subject, but once the subject is picked, there is no changing until the entire lesson is done. (No more than 15 minutes, right?) It will take a bit of work to enforce this change, since she's so used to doing this her way. Be ready for some non-productive days. Next time she picks a subject let her know ahead of time that you will be finishing this subject before moving on to the next. Make sure you're clear. Then when the fit starts, reminder her, "We are finishing this subject before moving on to the next." After the time-out, pull out the same subject again. You'll probably have a really big fit on your hands then, but ride it out. Stick to your guns, outlast her. After a few times of you finishing the subject you both pre-agreed to, she'll stop trying to switch subjects by throwing fits. It'll be hard while you're changing this behavior, but will be worth it in a few days/weeks when you're not having the daily fits anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 My son gets very cranky if he doesn't eat well. Once I took him to Vacation Bible school and told him he would have to eat what was served because I wasn't packing him a lunch, and he refused to eat everything except the junk food. His behavior in the afternoon was awful! He had temper tantrums every afternoon. He was like another person - out-of-control. I did pack him a lunch after that and then he was fine. I notice that if he eats even just 3 spoonfuls of oatmeal for breakfast he has better concentration and is less cranky than if he eats something less wholesome. For him, it can make the difference between tears and a happy productive morning. You might try serving hot cereal, eggs, and stuff like that and seeing if it makes a difference. I also agree with the other posters about her getting her own way by throwing fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I feel the same as the others with the tantrums, but I'm also going to say no pop tarts. It's going to spike her sugar, and then she's going to crash and get cranky and it looks like you are the target. A good solid protein in the morning will get her to go further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 She usually eats cereal with milk for breakfast; that goes over better. Today she did pretty well for an hour or so; now she's melting down again, so I sent her to her room. We got Latin, phonics, and math done without a fuss, then I fixed her bangs (which she hacked last night--I've warned her next time she does that I'll cut it very short again) and I gave her a 15 minute break, during which she started an art project (with my help); when she started her temper tantrum she tore it up, so I'm refusing further help. I didn't entirely let her get her way; she wanted to go out front and play with the neighbor kids. I made her come back and keep working on school. I will try sticking to a subject, maybe it'll help more. Right now, she is refusing to pick a subject. I've given her five minutes to pick one, or I'll do it for her. It doesn't help at all that I only got like six hours of sleep yesterday, in two 3-hour jags. I'm tired, and that makes it hard to be patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 and announced she was ready to start school. She said she wanted to start with she agreed to do Latin instead. but when I suggested she said she'd be willing You're giving her to much control. You're letting her set the schedule and tone of your school day. While giving her choices is fair, allowing her to make so many descisions is giving her to much control. You need to have a conversation with her, letting her know that you'll be following a more structured schedule with a checklist. She needs to complete each subject before moving on to the next or getting any play time. If she tantrums, set consequences and inforce them. But then continue with your prepared schedule. As she matures and her behavior improves, you'll give her more control over her schedule and day. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 She usually eats cereal with milk for breakfast; that goes over better. Today she did pretty well for an hour or so; now she's melting down again, so I sent her to her room. We got Latin, phonics, and math done without a fuss, then I fixed her bangs (which she hacked last night--I've warned her next time she does that I'll cut it very short again) and I gave her a 15 minute break, during which she started an art project (with my help); when she started her temper tantrum she tore it up, so I'm refusing further help. I didn't entirely let her get her way; she wanted to go out front and play with the neighbor kids. I made her come back and keep working on school. I will try sticking to a subject, maybe it'll help more. Right now, she is refusing to pick a subject. I've given her five minutes to pick one, or I'll do it for her. It doesn't help at all that I only got like six hours of sleep yesterday, in two 3-hour jags. I'm tired, and that makes it hard to be patient. I personally need to get up and move after a hour, maybe sooner. How old is she? Can you mix in some movement? Take a break before she starts to need to move? I also recommend a high protein snack..an egg or some nut butter. Not pure carbs. Not cereal, not sugar. Sounds like a terrible way to contine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 What's wrong with raisin bran with whole milk? She's allergic to eggs and peanut butter. Some days we have pancakes or waffles, which is probably worse from a protein view (has milk in it but no egg, and syrup), but also has more fat to moderate the sugar. Anyway, there is plenty of movement! Usually if she seems a little restless, I'll have her get up and move somehow. Today for Latin, for example, I had her physically find or point to the objects we were naming. During phonics, she sat and read the exercise until she started getting restless, then I had her get up and act out each word as she read it off. Since she paid attention through two subjects, I then sent her running across the yard to fetch a fallen palm branch back to the pile, and let her play with her raquet for a few minutes, then we did math. A productive hour, complete with breaks. As opposed to yesterday, when it was 2 minutes-tantrum-time-out-2 minutes-tantrum-time out...and only two subjects got covered in the space of two hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 My experience with giving young children lots of choices is that they often find it exhausting and behave badly. I print up a fancy schedule and the only say my kids have is what font and color I use on it. Then we stick to it as much as we can. I do think that she is probably on system overload, and that she needs to have some decisions made for her, kindly and firmly. Protein would probably help too, but I really bet she will come around when she doesn't have to make so many choices. I'm sure when you get some real sleep things will seem better. I've worked nights for years too, and organization is my key to not blowing up when I'm worn down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I agree with a lot of what others have said and I'll add some. 1. I know it's been mentioned but it's worth mentioning again-kids need protein for breakfast, this is especially true of busy, active kids. If I gave my middle dd or my son a poptart *or* only cereal for breakfast we'd both be sobbing messes by the end of the day. Eggs, waffles or toast with peanut butter, a hunk of cheese with her cereal, give her protein. 2. She's in first grade, she's still young. You need to be in charge but she also needs some break/fun time. Make a list of what you are going to do, in order. Give her incentives, give her fun stuff to do. Do math then hula hoop together for 10 minutes. Do phonics then art. Get the Montessori Play and Learn book or look around the internet for ideas of self-directed learning and give her time for that (it will give you a break from the battle of wills). 3. You are giving in to her willfulness. If she gets a timeout, once she is finished with the timeout, you need to go back to what you all were doing before the timeout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Sorry, I was posting while you posted this: What's wrong with raisin bran with whole milk? She's allergic to eggs and peanut butter. Some days we have pancakes or waffles, which is probably worse from a protein view (has milk in it but no egg, and syrup), but also has more fat to moderate the sugar. We're not suggesting raisin bran is bad, just to add a little more protein. It's my experience (and judging from the response, many moms have the same experience) that kids function better with more protein in their system. They think better, they sit better, they are more cooperative. We're not suggesting to nix the raisin bran, only add something with protein. If you can't do eggs or peanut butter you could do sausages, scrambled tofu, cottage cheese, ham, etc. Anyway, there is plenty of movement! Usually if she seems a little restless, I'll have her get up and move somehow. Today for Latin, for example, I had her physically find or point to the objects we were naming. During phonics, she sat and read the exercise until she started getting restless, then I had her get up and act out each word as she read it off. Since she paid attention through two subjects, I then sent her running across the yard to fetch a fallen palm branch back to the pile, and let her play with her raquet for a few minutes, then we did math. A productive hour, complete with breaks. As opposed to yesterday, when it was 2 minutes-tantrum-time-out-2 minutes-tantrum-time out...and only two subjects got covered in the space of two hours. That is great that you are finding ways to cope and direct her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 Luthien things adding bacon to breakfast is a great idea...she'd eat half a pound of it in a sitting if I let her, and I could get some protein powder or soy flour to add to pancakes/waffles, like I used to when I was pregnant. I should add that we usually do a mid-morning snack; DD had cereal with milk about halfway through the morning yesterday, and she'll have fruit with yogurt, toast, a pop tart, etc. on days she eats cereal first (or cereal on days she eats a pancake or waffle). Today she didn't ask for anything, so she'll probably eat an early (like five minutes from now) lunch. Lunch usually involves a sunflower-seed-butter-and-jam-sandwich-with-milk-to-dip-it-in, or cheese and crackers, etc. Today, it's leftovers from last night's dinner she didn't finish (naked chicken enchiladas). But, we did finish on time today. Part was maybe my management, part was the kids not playing outside (and her stepbrothers, here visiting today, refusing to play with her; though I hope that doesn't continue all afternoon), and part of it was her being more willing to get things done from the get-go. Now, I'm off to bed; hopefully I'll sleep better than I did yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 In addition to the wise words above, I'd vote for the pop tart as culprit. :iagree: Heartily. Morning sugar is a schoolday killer for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Two recommendations: 1. Lose the pop tart and have a solid protein breakfast. 2. You (not your daughter) need to come up with a schedule that is followed each day so that every activity isn't subject to negotiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I always schedule a fun activity or a break for after the subjects that dd will whine over. Mostly this is anything that requires a lot of coloring in/copywork or her reading practice (she doesn't always like reading out loud). I don't give her much, usually just one sentence, but on those days when she doesn't want to do it, it helps her to know there is a snack waiting for her or a 15 minute break or a subject that she loves. I know raising bran doesn't sound that bad, but if you look at the sugar content, some raisin brans can have more sugar per serving than your typical "sugar cereal." I would check yours and see how it adds up. The pop tart is also full of sugar. I never let dd5 have a sugary snack during school time, if we are going to have a sweet treat it will be after lunch, and after school is finished. Otherwise she will have ants in her pants for the rest of our school time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted October 17, 2009 Author Share Posted October 17, 2009 We are going to try adding some additional protein to breakfast. Pop tarts aren't a daily thing around here; I bought this box for snacks during an outing earlier in the week. I think she's polished off the box now, so there won't be more for a while. Her bad behavior yesterday started long before a sugar crash might have occured, so I'm not ready to just blame it on that. The raisin bran I buy is the kind that doesn't have sugar clinging to it; all the sugar is the natural sugars in the raisins and the teensy amount in the flakes. And there is protein in milk; she usually has milk on the cereal AND a glass of milk. DD likes being able to choose which subject to do next; I divided them into green folders and pink folders; pink folders we do weekly, so can be pushed back if we run out of time, and so she has to do most or all of the green folders first, but she picks the order. I am going to try insisting she stick with a task until it's finished, and pay attention and make sure she gets breaks before meltdown occurs. Thanks for all the good advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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