I'm out of chocoate, coffee, and beer and here I sit behind a locked door crying.....

[Susan in TX]

:grouphug: Hugs.

 

I don't have any advice...just wanted to let you know you are not alone. I had kids that just couldn't handle the separation...not even for just an hour...and it just wasn't worth it to me to put them through that emotional distress. I also ran into a lot of people who did not support my decision to not leave a child with separation anxiety. It is hard. But they do grow up. One of mine that just wouldn't let me leave her, not even with Dad, is now a very happy well-adjusted college freshman living away from home and showing absolutely no signs of any separation anxiety.

 

Susan in TX

[Scarlett]

Wow. Great thread. I mean, not the feelings of the OP ((((hugs)))) for those. But the differing and respectfully offered viewpoints!

 

I, too, grow weary of the culturally accepted viewpoint that putting distance between parents and children is the commonly accepted idea. I once wrote a blog post about it when I was the Happy Homeschooler. It talked about how profit has been put between parents and children, how 85% of the products in Babys R Us are child-parent spacers, and named the disease superfluparents. (It's now being used against me in court although my xh was with me when it was written and agreed. I digress......)

 

The irony of Jesus' words "let the children come" and the age segregated church programs :lol::001_huh:;):glare: ......

 

I was once in a LLL group that asked a member to either "not" or "tone down" breastfeeding her older child/baby in meetings.:confused: It kind of reminds me of that.

 

 

OTOH, I completely get the other "side". I think sometimes because I was an attachment parent, because I homeschool mine (and others!), because I teach parenting and have returned to higher learning to get some intials behind my name to be able to *really* teach parenting, people assume I like kids. I.really.don't. I just figure that since I have them and kids are a reality, we need to do the best we can with, for and around them.

 

When I attend an adult type function and there are other people's children (even wonderfully quiet and behaved OPC), I can't turn off my mommy and daycare 'dar and *be*, *enjoy*, *participate* or relax.

 

I also don't think it's ever as simple as:

 

1) Use a nursery

 

2) I love my kids and don't want to be apart from them

 

I think to hold either view staunchly misses the mark. Some kids (and or some parents) *need* some space. Indeed, maybe Jesus could welcome the littles *because* he was able to go off with his adults regularly. ;)

 

OTOH, not every parent *needs* that space at to the same degree. Even as a space, autonomous loving mom of 3 closely spaced kids, I pretty much had a child slung on my body for a 6 year stretch. I survived.

 

{{{{{OP}}}}} I get it. I really do. Your baby sounds like a sweetie. I hope you find a solution that meets your needs and parenting ideas.

 

Really nice post Joanne.

 

I have to say that overall I am glad we (we as in my faith) do not have the nursery option. Our children are with us from the day they are born. Some children make more noise than others. When it becomes a true distraction the parent takes them out of the main hall. I had a particularly easy baby and he was never loud, except maybe in that stage where babies happily babble but aren't old enough to know they should not do that during a service. I've had a few friend that suffered a bit with screaming babies, but not many. There are times with kids, that you get nothing much out of the service, but the habit is being formed that this is where we belong at this time. I am amazed at how quickly kids learn to be quiet during services. It is especially evident when a new comer arrivers with a 2 year old who has never been to a service.

 

I do agree that many parents need some time away from their kids. I also agree we need quiet to truly be able to deeply study God's Word. But those things can be accomplished without separating kids from parents during services.

 

As an aside I had a 'girls night' recently at my house. A friend of mine organized it because I told her I wanted company but to emotionally drained to make phone calls. Well, to me a girls night implies no men or children. So imagine my surprise to see 3 little girls show up with their moms. LOL. I didn't care---they are my friends and I love them all---but I found that odd.

[Laurie4b]

"It would give other mom's the idea that they could keep their kids with them. And that's not the enviroment they're trying to create."

 

I'm sorry, but I work as a children's minister and this is just not true. :glare:People understand that there are different situations, and there aren't a mob of women just dying to have their two year olds in class with them. It will not suddenly create an avalanche. This is the kind of rules-based rather than needs-based mentality that really is unnecessary and doesn't really help anyone.

 

There are some women who are very distracted by children. It especially happens to older women who can't screen noise anymore. In our community women's Bible study, where people from different churches participate, we have some small groups that are okay with kids in them and some that are not. That way everyone can find an environment where they can be comfortable and find fellowship.

 

If your child is not distracting, there is no reason for her not to be with you. If she is, you need to scoot her out, of course.

 

I have never been one to force the separation thing. That anxiety can come and go. I've had it show up in 4 year olds who had had me as their Sunday school teacher for 2 years and were in day care, so they'd had plenty of practice separating. Personally, I waited until my children grew out of it rather than force them into sobbing. All of them grew up perfectly normally. None of them are "mama's boys."

 

I am so sorry for your disappointment. Young moms really need fellowship. And it really, really hurts to feel that not only you, but your child as well, are being rejected.

 

I think you ought to plan to leave the Bible study, but do let them know how their policy hurts you. You might ask if they would consider a policy of letting individual groups decide (if there are multiple groups, which is what I'm thinking.) If you can ask this kindly, you might quietly ask why they think the disciples shooed children away. And also ask whether they would consider whether Jesus' admonition about letting the children come can be applied in some way. (And remember, the disciples also thought children should be segregated to create a certain environment, and they, too, had something to learn. It didn't make them horrible people; just showed their blindness to Jesus' values.)

 

Otherwise, you might want to check at other churches in your community for Bible studies that would be more flexible. I would be so bold as to ask this group of women to help you find a place where you can find fellowship if they persist in denying it to you.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Laurie4b
clarify that leave meant the Bible study, not your church

[iluvmy4blessings]

Well I wouldn't necessarily advise you leaving your church altogether, but I don't think there is anything wrong with locating a local Bible Study that fits your needs in the meantime. I am going to be the first to say that although I have my main church, I do go elsewhere to "supplement" if need be. I kind of look at it the way I do my curriculum. Sometimes it is not a one size fits all deal. I might have to supplement with another curriculum from time to time. I do this as needed b/c my family comes first. For example, our children's ministry does not offer something like Awana and the children's program that they do have on Wednesday nights does not really appeal to my kids. I just take my kids right down to the street on Wednesday nights to the Awana program. I am not going to have my kids missing out just b/c the church is lacking in this area. I don't feel one bit bad about it either. I will go where they have what I need. Yet I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater either. I love my church and just understand their strengths and weaknesses. Some may disagree with this but it works for me.

 

If I were you I would call around and find churches that may offer something similar and just try it out. I don't look at it as "cheating" on your church although others may. Not me.

 

I will say one thing...I do not appreciate it when some churches always try to get moms of young children to volunteer in the nursery. They need to be aware that their are stages of life and moms need time away from their kids to refresh. It is wrong IMO to have moms coming to church to do more childcare. Ask the people who are NOT in that stage of life to volunteer there and ask the moms to volunteer in an area that is better suited for them. I used to volunteer in the nursery and I was totally taken advantage of. They assumed that b/c I had 4 children that I was the "perfect" person for the job. I found myself in there 2 weeks a month and before long I didn't even want to go to church anymore. So I had to ask them to switch me out. Now I volunteer in the hospitality ministry and I love it. I visit shut ins, take food, and prepare meals for funerals and other things. It fits my lifestyle better and I am still serving.

Edited September 29, 2009 by iluvmy4blessings

[Macrina]

I haven't read all the replies. But in my experience certain denominations don't understand or value attachment. We ended up leaving the protestant church as a whole, one reason was becuase of how theology crept into EVERY. LITTLE. THING. including toddlers in laps. Time to find a more supportive group who is just glad to HAVE you there, regardless of who you've got with it. And THANK YOU for being attentive to your baby's needs!

[Erica in PA]

 

Some people see children as a problem to solve instead little people to raise and nurture.

 

 

And there are lots of inbetweens, too. I'm a parent who has devoted much of my life to raising and nurturing my children, and has loved doing so, but who also sees great benefit in being apart from one's children in various situations.

[mommaduck]

I haven't read all the replies. But in my experience certain denominations don't understand or value attachment. We ended up leaving the protestant church as a whole, one reason was becuase of how theology crept into EVERY. LITTLE. THING. including toddlers in laps. Time to find a more supportive group who is just glad to HAVE you there, regardless of who you've got with it. And THANK YOU for being attentive to your baby's needs!

:iagree:

[RanchGirl]

:grouphug: hugs to the OP! I had to leave a Bible Study because my 2 year old couldn't handle the separation to go into the nursery. My older son was in preschool at the same time and I was *so* excited to get to have some adult mommy time but alas it was not to be that year. I felt the scorn from those who thought I should let my son cry it out in the nursery -- eh, not my parenting style at all. So I have been there. And others may not understand why you can't make this work within the existing set up. That's ok, they can have their opinion!

 

Now first of all, my Lord woman, why are you out of chocolate? This should never be allowed to happen!!! Get thee to the 7-11 asap.

 

Secondly, it didn't even occur to me to try to bring my 2 year old into the Bible Study. It's a quiet, adult, reflective time. Not kid time. It would not have allowed *me* to have adult time, much less disturbing the others. Even quiet little ones are still quiet little ones. So I can see their point if that is the way they have this particular Bible Study set up. It's reasonable to say no kids during this time, especially since they have a place for kids to go -- even though, sadly, that isn't going to work during this particular phase of your child's life.

 

BUT, there is nothing wrong with asking to start a child-friendly Bible Study. It might start to look more like a playgroup with a couple little ones, but at least you'd have the adult time. Maybe there is a room at the church where you could set up an active kid zone at one end and quiet study zone at the other? If you respectfully and politely pursue it (without dissing the other leader or her no-kids group), you might start something wonderful!

 

So I guess what I'm saying is, have your good cry, enjoy whatever coping food you need, but don't waste anger on this, and don't let it become a huge we're leaving the church or the Bible study that the other kids love drama kind of thing. Respect the leader's intention for the Bible study that she runs, and try to set up your own that will work for you during this time of your life.

 

And if it doesn't work out, don't worry, and don't burn bridges at the church... soon your little one will be able to go off on her own with a happy wave at you. And then you might find that you are really happy about the no kids rule in the adult Bible study because no one else's little ones will be disrupting your adult time!

[lionfamily1999]

And there are lots of inbetweens, too. I'm a parent who has devoted much of my life to raising and nurturing my children, and has loved doing so, but who also sees great benefit in being apart from one's children in various situations.

I agree.

 

 

 

 

OP, is it possible that someone else complained. Maybe because they had been told 'no kids' or, perhaps, they found your little a distraction?

 

I'm sorry this is so difficult for you. I hope you either find a Bible study that will include your baby, or your little one learns to trust that you will come back. It's so hard at that age.

 

I'm pretty sure the church's goal is not to foster independance for the child, more to create a quiet, adult atmosphere for study. It's separate from church, at least where I'm going now, and I really don't see this as trying to force parents to let go. It's more of a time for grown ups.

[TravelingChris]

I am distractable. Very easily. I always try not to sit near parents with little ones in church because I will be distracted. In our church, we have the first part of service, about 1/2 hour where there is a nursery if one wants but the children's church hasn't started yet. So all the preschoolers and early elementary are in church. Some parents keep their infants there. My only problem is when the kid is noisy and the parent doesn;t leave. It makes it hard not only for distractable people but also those with hearing problems. We have a closed circuit tv system and it is broadcasting in the area where parents can go. They don't miss out on worship and their children can be more like children.

[Mrs Mungo]

I had a friend here last Thanksgiving with her 6 week old breastfed baby. We decided to go get pedicures. The first place we tried said "no babies, at all!" We tried a few different places until we found one that was happy to take our money and do our pedicures while her baby slept in the sling. It was no big deal but I can understand why some spas would not want to risk a screaming baby in their environment. I guess I see this as similar. It isn't church, it's an adult Bible study. If it's not going to work for you and your daughter, try to find a Bible study somewhere else or start your own mom and tot Bible study.

[Tangerine]

I had a friend here last Thanksgiving with her 6 week old breastfed baby. We decided to go get pedicures. The first place we tried said "no babies, at all!" We tried a few different places until we found one that was happy to take our money and do our pedicures while her baby slept in the sling. It was no big deal but I can understand why some spas would not want to risk a screaming baby in their environment. I guess I see this as similar. It isn't church, it's an adult Bible study. If it's not going to work for you and your daughter, try to find a Bible study somewhere else or start your own mom and tot Bible study.

 

 

I'm just thinking out loud here, but is it possible they don't want babies in there because of the fumes? Or is that too much to hope for? ;)

[HollyDay]

This burns me. My wonderful oldest, very social dd was a very clingy 2 year old. She also would sit quite happily in my lap or at my feet with a blanket and some quiet toys or coloring. We too were asked to leave a lot of places we should not have been asked to leave. Places like church, Sunday School, Bible study, ladies fellowship,etc. Many of these places would not let me into the nursery. Many of these activities were adult only, no child care. Hello!!!! The church is there to minister to one another. Not put up fences and gates and "turn around signs" because we have children who need us. Does anyone read Titus 2 anymore? "older women teach the younger women." What does it say to teach them?

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm just thinking out loud here, but is it possible they don't want babies in there because of the fumes? Or is that too much to hope for? ;)

 

The places I go are big and fumeless. Plus, they specifically said that they didn't want anything (like a baby!) to disturb the tranquil atmosphere. My friend was mad about it. I was ambivalent, if that's the way they want to run their business, that's fine, they just aren't getting my money as a result.

[shinyhappypeople]

I think there's a lot to be said for meeting people where they're at and bearing one anothers burdens.

 

Since the situation with the little one is surely temporary, why can't the others suck it up and help the OP out? Would it really be THAT hard for the group as a whole to love and support her while her DD is going through this stage?

 

Some obviously PREFER a kid-free study. Totally understandable. But the OP NEEDS fellowship. It's wants versus needs, folks. That's all this is. And the Bible Study chose to go with "wants" and in the process hurt someone who's already stressed out and vulnerable. Ugh. That's awful. Rejection is so painful.

 

OP, I'm sorry this Bible study didn't work out for you. Hang in there. FWIW, Jesus thinks your DD is a sweetheart and is so proud of her for how well she behaved in the Bible Study. And he's so very, very proud of you, too. :grouphug:

[lionfamily1999]

They haven't kicked her out of church. She can get fellowship before and after service. It's a Bible Study group.

 

It is really sad that the OP can't participate in this group that she enjoys, but it is not as though she is being shunned. Upsetting, yes, worth lambasting the entire church over? Not so much.

 

Perspective.

[shinyhappypeople]

They haven't kicked her out of church. She can get fellowship before and after service. It's a Bible Study group.

 

It is really sad that the OP can't participate in this group that she enjoys, but it is not as though she is being shunned. Upsetting, yes, worth lambasting the entire church over? Not so much.

 

Perspective.

 

Calm down. I wasn't lambasting the church group as a whole. I am critical of how the Bible Study is run and how they handled this. "Bear one another's burdens" isn't a suggestion and doesn't come with the disclaimer "when you feel like it" or "if it suits you."

 

And, I hardly see "before & after service" as real fellowship. Chatting and small talk? That's fun but it's not real, deep fellowship.

 

More :grouphug: to the OP.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I'm sorry, but I work as a children's minister and this is just not true. :glare:People understand that there are different situations, and there aren't a mob of women just dying to have their two year olds in class with them. It will not suddenly create an avalanche. This is the kind of rules-based rather than needs-based mentality that really is unnecessary and doesn't really help anyone.

 

There are some women who are very distracted by children. It especially happens to older women who can't screen noise anymore. In our community women's Bible study, where people from different churches participate, we have some small groups that are okay with kids in them and some that are not. That way everyone can find an environment where they can be comfortable and find fellowship.

 

If your child is not distracting, there is no reason for her not to be with you. If she is, you need to scoot her out, of course.

 

I have never been one to force the separation thing. That anxiety can come and go. I've had it show up in 4 year olds who had had me as their Sunday school teacher for 2 years and were in day care, so they'd had plenty of practice separating. Personally, I waited until my children grew out of it rather than force them into sobbing. All of them grew up perfectly normally. None of them are "mama's boys."

 

I am so sorry for your disappointment. Young moms really need fellowship. And it really, really hurts to feel that not only you, but your child as well, are being rejected.

 

I think you ought to plan to leave the Bible study, but do let them know how their policy hurts you. You might ask if they would consider a policy of letting individual groups decide (if there are multiple groups, which is what I'm thinking.) If you can ask this kindly, you might quietly ask why they think the disciples shooed children away. And also ask whether they would consider whether Jesus' admonition about letting the children come can be applied in some way. (And remember, the disciples also thought children should be segregated to create a certain environment, and they, too, had something to learn. It didn't make them horrible people; just showed their blindness to Jesus' values.)

 

Otherwise, you might want to check at other churches in your community for Bible studies that would be more flexible. I would be so bold as to ask this group of women to help you find a place where you can find fellowship if they persist in denying it to you.

 

Well said. :iagree::iagree:

And (((CalicoKat)) .

[unsinkable]

Wow. Great thread. I mean, not the feelings of the OP ((((hugs)))) for those. But the differing and respectfully offered viewpoints!

 

I, too, grow weary of the culturally accepted viewpoint that putting distance between parents and children is the commonly accepted idea. I once wrote a blog post about it when I was the Happy Homeschooler. It talked about how profit has been put between parents and children, how 85% of the products in Babys R Us are child-parent spacers, and named the disease superfluparents. (It's now being used against me in court although my xh was with me when it was written and agreed. I digress......)

 

The irony of Jesus' words "let the children come" and the age segregated church programs :lol::001_huh:;):glare: ......

 

I was once in a LLL group that asked a member to either "not" or "tone down" breastfeeding her older child/baby in meetings.:confused: It kind of reminds me of that.

 

 

OTOH, I completely get the other "side". I think sometimes because I was an attachment parent, because I homeschool mine (and others!), because I teach parenting and have returned to higher learning to get some intials behind my name to be able to *really* teach parenting, people assume I like kids. I.really.don't. I just figure that since I have them and kids are a reality, we need to do the best we can with, for and around them.

 

When I attend an adult type function and there are other people's children (even wonderfully quiet and behaved OPC), I can't turn off my mommy and daycare 'dar and *be*, *enjoy*, *participate* or relax.

 

I also don't think it's ever as simple as:

 

1) Use a nursery

 

2) I love my kids and don't want to be apart from them

 

I think to hold either view staunchly misses the mark. Some kids (and or some parents) *need* some space. Indeed, maybe Jesus could welcome the littles *because* he was able to go off with his adults regularly. ;)

 

OTOH, not every parent *needs* that space at to the same degree. Even as a space, autonomous loving mom of 3 closely spaced kids, I pretty much had a child slung on my body for a 6 year stretch. I survived.

 

{{{{{OP}}}}} I get it. I really do. Your baby sounds like a sweetie. I hope you find a solution that meets your needs and parenting ideas.

 

This is shocking to me. Shocking. Did you tell the parents of the kids you work with and teach you don't like children?

[OnTheBrink]

This burns me. My wonderful oldest, very social dd was a very clingy 2 year old. She also would sit quite happily in my lap or at my feet with a blanket and some quiet toys or coloring. We too were asked to leave a lot of places we should not have been asked to leave. Places like church, Sunday School, Bible study, ladies fellowship,etc. Many of these places would not let me into the nursery. Many of these activities were adult only, no child care. Hello!!!! The church is there to minister to one another. Not put up fences and gates and "turn around signs" because we have children who need us. Does anyone read Titus 2 anymore? "older women teach the younger women." What does it say to teach them?

 

I think trying to apply Titus 2 is stretching in this scenario. The older women are to teach the younger to love their husbands and children, keep their home, minister at home. It doesn't address allowing babies into a bible study.

 

I think in our "everything must meet my needs and be for me" culture, we've lost sight of the fact that everything isn't for everyone, all the time. We're all in different seasons of life and therefore, every event isn't going to be for each individual. If one of the boundaries for a particular bible study is that no children be present, then no children should be present. Period. Why is it ok for one person to bring in their child, knowing that this rule was in place? How is that fair to the others, who've either used the provided nursery, or found other ways to have their child taken care of during this meeting? If something can't meet your need, or if you can't adhere to the rules, then find something that does.

 

I'm not without sympathy; truly, I'm not. I've completely been there/done that and am in that situation right now. I'd LOVE to attend Bible Study Fellowship. But, it meets during our school time and doesn't provide a place for dd to be during the session. It's not for me at this time. Another example: Our church's Titus 2 is doing a book on marriage, and I'm single. Our annual church conference is on...marriage. Our Mom's in Christ group is doing a book I'd LOVE to do a study on, but the group is for mothers whose children are under 7. It's not for me. I'll admit; I was disappointed and hurt that all of a sudden, it seemed that church wasn't for me anymore! But, I talked to some ladies, talked with the pastor. Titus 2 will welcome the single ladies, but they're not changing the book. They will have a set of discussion questions for the singles to apply the principles of the book to other relationships, but the focus of the group RIGHT NOW is marriage. And, my child is not allowed to be in Titus 2. She's not allowed to attend the marriage conference. Everything can't be for everybody all the time. Sometimes you have to either wait until a better time, or forge ahead and create something that will meet your needs, and possibly someone else's.

 

Case in point: The above-mentioned Mom's in Christ is doing Trusting God by Jerry Bridges. I love his books and have one called Respectable Sins, which I've not read yet because I was hoping someone would start a study on it. Turns out, by my talking with some ladies, I found out that several others have the book on their shelves and we're going to meet and study it together. Had I not been told that MIC wasn't for me, I'd never have sought out these women to do this study on.

 

So, all this rambling to say, don't be angry that at this time, this bible study won't work for you. It's OK that your dd needs you right now. THAT is the ministry that God has you in, for this season. I strongly suggest that you take your hurt and frustration and turn it into a positive and find some gals who are in your same boat, or find another study at another church that will allow for your child to be there. The bible study leaders at your church aren't evil, or discriminatory, or sinning. They want a study with no distractions where the women can discuss, learn, share without a child in the room. There's nothing wrong with that. If you were at my church, I'd hook you up with a good dozen women who'd love to have you join our Moms In Christ group. Maybe you could start something like that at your church.

[Joanne]

I strongly suggest that you take your hurt and frustration and turn it into a positive and find some gals who are in your same boat,

 

When my kids were younger, my peer group included a lot of women who honored their child's need to be close, who breastfed for a long time, etc. We ended up having a Bible study in my home once a week with kids welcome. It was not the quiet, studious, serious atmosphere I'd normally want, but it fulfilled some needs.