grammar

[Student Mommie]

Reading the schedule-related posts, I notice that many of you have English grammar as a primary subject in grammar school, spending a high proportion of time on it.

 

For those who have chosen to go with formal grammar curriculum, why have you made that choice? Do you disagree that a child will pick up the grammar naturally with enough literature exposure? What is the use of learning how to diagram a complex sentence?

 

For those who with older kids who have avoided any formal grammar study-- are you happy with your decision, or do you regret it?

 

Thanks so much!

 

PS please don't grammatically pick apart my posts in an attempt to demonstrate that formal grammar study could be very useful :)

[tinkgumby]

We're not to the point yet of diagramming sentences in 2nd and 3rd grade, but we are spending a significant amount of time on Language Arts in general, between WWE, FLL, handwriting, memorization, spelling, and reading.

 

I do have an opinion on this topic, though, and that's because *I* was homeschooled with a "pick it up from literature as you go" approach. In general, that works just fine - in fact, I scored almost perfectly on the English portion of the SAT and ACT (mind you, they didn't ask me to diagram a sentence!). :D

 

So yes, I can spell, I can articulate and express myself in a more-or-less grammatically correct fashion, just picking up what I did from voracious reading.

 

However, can I tell you how STUPID I felt in college when it came time to name parts of the sentence and I had no clue? Sure, I knew a verb was an action word and a noun was a person, place, or thing, but when it came to more complex things, I was lost. (I still pulled a 4.0, but I had to look up things I should have already known.)

 

From that experience, I've decided not to disadvantage my own children (however pointless diagramming a sentence may be to real-life application) by neglecting that part of their education. :001_smile:

[Laura Corin]

For those who with older kids who have avoided any formal grammar study-- are you happy with your decision, or do you regret it?

 

 

My boys know parts of speech and can punctuate, but these have always been a very minor part of their English studies. We use Galore Park English. There's a sample chapter of their book for 7/8 year olds here, so you can see how much grammar there is in it. As we do all the 'your turn to write' options in each chapter, the grammar becomes quite a small part of our work.

 

I am delighted with my boys' ability to write coherent and correct English. They have been immersed in excellent literature from birth and have good instincts: each could spot a missing colon by about age seven. I don't know if all children would develop good English with similar experiences - if my boys hadn't picked up decent writing, I would certainly have used something more formal.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that literature and writing are more important than grammar.

 

But grammar study is really helpful as well. It makes it easier to figure out why sentences are awkward. It makes it possible to receive feedback on writing in the most efficient and specific way. And it enables the study of foreign languages, which I would argue is just about impossible without grammar knowledge.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think that literature and writing are more important than grammar.

 

But grammar study is really helpful as well. It makes it easier to figure out why sentences are awkward. It makes it possible to receive feedback on writing in the most efficient and specific way. And it enables the study of foreign languages, which I would argue is just about impossible without grammar knowledge.

 

I agree with this.

 

Also, diagramming sentences helps eliminate very common subject/verb agreement issues. There was a complaint in another thread from someone who received a wedding invitation that included the note "A block of rooms have been reserved..." I see that sort of mistake *all the time* and it's very easy to avoid once you know the parts of a sentence.

[Laura Corin]

And it enables the study of foreign languages, which I would argue is just about impossible without grammar knowledge.

 

I actually learned parts of speech through foreign language study. This was the Seventies, and my middle school French and Latin teachers knew that we hadn't even been taught to recognise a noun. They told us what we needed to know as they went along; the system worked fine and I don't remember any confusion.

 

Laura

[Verity]

I agree with this.

 

Also, diagramming sentences helps eliminate very common subject/verb agreement issues. There was a complaint in another thread from someone who received a wedding invitation that included the note "A block of rooms have been reserved..." I see that sort of mistake *all the time* and it's very easy to avoid once you know the parts of a sentence.

 

 

::shudder::

 

What I have found in recently completing my Bachelor's degree in Secondary English Education is that most college students do not understand grammar well enough to discuss language in common terms, and that most middle and high school students (ps) do not pick up proper language usage from reading and exposure to be able to compose correct sentences. Exposure is key I would agree, but you still need to know what every part of the sentence is called and how it functions.

 

Here is my analogy:

Could you learn the basics of playing tennis just by watching matches on tv (on mute)? Yes, you could see you have to get the ball over the net in the middle and had to make it bounce at least once within the lines. You could practice hitting the ball just like you saw on tv and could become fairly proficient in those skills. But you couldn't discuss tennis with anyone else because you don't know the terminology for racket, net, backhand, scoring, etc... In order to become a really proficient writer I think that grammar is very important because it will give you a common language to discuss with other writers and instructors.

 

Re: diagramming, My knowledge (even with my degree) is abysmal. I learned more about diagramming in my linguistics class and I look forward to learning this along with my kids.

[Sunkirst]

With my 11 yob, our LArts focused exclusively on learning to read, and mostly neglected grammar. He's dyslexic, and this took a large proportion of our time. I also went through an "unschooly" phase, as regular school was going so poorly. Now I'm realizing that I can't really explain punctuation, or much about writing at all without doing some grammar. Consequently, I will be doing basic grammar from the beginning with my 2 girls. That said, I view grammar as a tool that facilitates good writing, and I will probably never take joy in diagramming a sentence (But you better believe that I will never let my kids know this :D)

[Allearia]

We do study grammar but I wouldn't say we spend a high proportion of time on it. We try to do about 15 minutes 3 days a week, using FLL3 with diagramming and memorization. My son loves it so we will be sticking with it for a while. We are also learning Latin so that adds more grammar to our day.

 

Now, I don't know the answer to whether just informal learning grammar through reading/writing would be enough. I never studied formal grammar and I always did very well in my writing.

 

Some of it is trust. I don't have enough experience to say whether it makes a big difference or not. Since I am a huge fan of WTM and Susan Wise Bauer, and she recommends it so highly, we are doing it.

 

It doesn't take us long, I am learning, he is learning, and we enjoy it. If it took an hour a day I might change my mind.

[mcconnellboys]

My older son is back in a private high school now and is a senior there. He just helped a friend compose a creative writing piece for a girlfriend's birthday (a treasure hunt filled with high adventure to find just the perfect treasure of a gift, etc.). He came home to tell me how sad it was that his friend simply cannot write at all. Grammar, spelling, punctuation - you name it - the fundamentals were so lacking that he just could not compose a well written letter, basically. So even when he *wants* very much to be able to put his thoughts into writing, he simply cannot. The friend is sixteen.

 

I think SWB has always said something to the effect that diagramming helps a person be able to see how the parts of a sentence fit together. Only in that way can they really see errors in their writing.

 

We've never spent more than about 10-20 minutes a day on grammar studies at the elementary level. That doesn't really ever go to more than about 30 minutes a day even up to high school age. We do also allocate time to spelling, and separate time to writing skills, but I think practice makes perfect (or at least trends one more toward second nature) in all things....

 

I want my children to be comfortable with the basic mechanics of the language and basic writing skills. It's hard enough to concentrate on composition even when you have the basics down. I can't imagine college essay or research paper writing without being well-grounded in the basics. The fact that so many schools do not teach these skills is one reason college professors bemoan their students' inability to respond appropriately in writing on tests and other written work.

[LanaTron]

Here is my analogy:

Could you learn the basics of playing tennis just by watching matches on tv (on mute)? Yes, you could see you have to get the ball over the net in the middle and had to make it bounce at least once within the lines. You could practice hitting the ball just like you saw on tv and could become fairly proficient in those skills. But you couldn't discuss tennis with anyone else because you don't know the terminology for racket, net, backhand, scoring, etc... In order to become a really proficient writer I think that grammar is very important because it will give you a common language to discuss with other writers and instructors.

 

 

Many of us learn to ride a bike by watching others, and just trying it until we get it. But you can bet that Lance Armstrong knows the name of every last piece of his bike, and can take it apart and put it back together.

 

Is studying grammar absolutely necessary? No. But I think it is an important tool to becoming an excellent writer.

[Melissa in Australia]

I make my children do formal grammar for at least 3 reasons.

1. SWB says so.

2. it helps develop a logical way of thinking

3. I never studied grammar at all ( not taught in Australian schools at all ) and I think it would have been beneficial for me to have learned it. I never picked it up naturally, I am a real book worm, and all that reading hasn't magically put grammar in my head.

4. I am sure there are more reasons but I can't think of them.

 

 

 

nb. The average Australian does have better oral grammar than the Average American.

[Testimony]

I believe that I missed learning grammar in school. I was pulled out for reading (for a dumb reason). I learned grammar from my Latin classes, but for some strange reason, I did not make the connections. I had very poor writing skills. I struggled in college due to my poor grammar. I did not do well on my SATs.

 

I am learning to write from an author's club that I am a part of.

 

I do not want my sons to be at such a disadvantage. I did start off teaching them from book. I would identify the parts of speech to them as I read from a book. Now, I do formal grammar training.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[2cents]

We're heavy into the grammar teaching and I think it has helped a lot with sentence structure and the annual testing. My college son has always been complimented on his writing and we spent more time on grammar than on writing. IMO, to get a good basis for writing, a student should have a firm grasp of the grammar rules. He comes home with stories about how horrible the writing is from some of the other college students and it mainly comes down to sentence structure and agreement issues.

[Ellie]

For those who with older kids who have avoided any formal grammar study-- are you happy with your decision, or do you regret it?

We were very relaxed hsers. I used Winston Grammar briefly--hated it--and one dd completed Easy Grammar--loved it. Other than that, we did very little with grammar. I am happy with that decision.

 

PS please don't grammatically pick apart my posts in an attempt to demonstrate that formal grammar study could be very useful :)

Aw, would we do that???:lol::lol::lol:

[Haiku]

For those who have chosen to go with formal grammar curriculum, why have you made that choice? Do you disagree that a child will pick up the grammar naturally with enough literature exposure? What is the use of learning how to diagram a complex sentence?

 

 

Anything you can learn can be done better if you understand it better. Most people can follow a recipe. Those who go to culinary school can usually whip up something tasty and elaborate without a recipe.

 

Many people can pick up basic grammar and usage through good books. But, imo, it's merely a parroting of what they have heard, not a true understanding, and oftentimes the knowledge to fix (or even recognize) an error is lacking.

 

Tara

[Student Mommie]

Very good points, everyone! You've all convinced me that a little grammar study is necessary. (And reminded me that my small amount of public school grammar actually has done me some good.)

 

Now, the question is, how much is enough. Mastery for anything is always nice-- but time and focus are limited. I wonder if a "light" English grammar study + an intense Latin study would be sufficient.

[Haiku]

I wonder if a "light" English grammar study + an intense Latin study would be sufficient.

 

If you use a parts-to-whole Latin program, yes. The author of the Latin-Centered Curriculum advocates skipping English grammar entirely and doing intensive Latin study.

 

Tara

[Jami]

If you use a parts-to-whole Latin program, yes. The author of the Latin-Centered Curriculum advocates skipping English grammar entirely and doing intensive Latin study.

 

Tara

 

 

That's not quite accurate. It's not that English grammar is skipped entirely, but that one can teach English grammar in the context of teaching Latin. Particularly by a teacher with a strong understanding of both languages. But English grammar is still very much taught.

[Jami]

It really only works well if the teacher has a strong grasp of the subject. This is why we went back to grammar. I would venture to guess that most of us need to use a formal grammar study with our kids because our grammar education is in one way or another lacking. I hope to give my kids enough knowledge that they will be able to choose either path when teaching their own kids.

 

 

I agree, Cadam. I don't think my own understanding of grammar is strong enough nor do I know Latin, so while I very much agree with Drew on principle, we're planning to use R&S English here through 8th grade. Perhaps my own children will be more successful as LCC educators for their children. ;)

[Haiku]

That's not quite accurate. It's not that English grammar is skipped entirely, but that one can teach English grammar in the context of teaching Latin. Particularly by a teacher with a strong understanding of both languages. But English grammar is still very much taught.

 

Yes, you certainly explained it better than I did. :)

 

Tara

[tullyfamily]

This made me smile:

 

I make my children do formal grammar for at least 3 reasons.

1. SWB says so.

 

 

We tried not doing grammar for a bit last year. We were unhappy w/ Shurley- the kids were good at it but it was taking a LONG time (esp as I started to add more children to the rotation) and I found myself using less & less of the program, which meant I was spending a lot of $$$ for very little content (I never liked Shurley's approach to writing, so we skipped that and the vocab.).

 

Anyway, we were thrilled to not have to fit grammar into the day. Latin is enough, right? Well... then I went to the Cinn homeschool convention in Ohio this past spring and attended all of SWB workshops. ALL OF THEM. Anyone else do this too? Please tell me I wasn't the only one! :001_smile:

 

While at the conference, I bought the new WTM book & read it in the evenings. I talked over the info w/ my friend, who had ditched grammar like me that year. Both the book & SWB's lectures gave us both a good kick in the pants! I had enjoyed using FLL w/ my daughter in the past but then switched to Shurley. Now that there was FLL for so many levels, I was willing to give it a try again.

 

It has been so good for us to be back to grammar! Mama is learning right alongside the children (Right now, I have 3 children using FLL levels 1, 2, & 4.) and I must say that it is NOT time consuming at all! Grammar doesn't take a whole lot of time to teach- a little bit consitently is the key!

 

I love the idea of teaching grammar via good literature, writing and Latin but I'm not confident in myself as the instructor! Plus, I've seen how diagramming is helping my oldest child understand the parts of speech better. (I never was taught it, so it is good for me too!)

 

So, THANK YOU SWB!

Heather

[ladydusk]

I talked over the info w/ my friend

 

Friend? Hmmmm .... LOL

[tullyfamily]

So SORRY- I mean friends. (One of whom is ladydusk, if you couldn't guess!) :tongue_smilie:

[skaterbabs]

I personally believe that a dedicated study of grammar is VERY important, and best done at an early age at which a large portion of what a child is doing is learning the "bones" of material that will be expanded later. I think it's important that a young(er) child have the foundation of good grammar, taught with and on purpose, before expecting that child to produce it when giving self-produced oral or written communication as an older student. By high school I was perfectly able to identify when a sentence was grammatically incorrect, and correct it, but I could not tell you WHY it was correct or incorrect. I firmly believe that knowing WHY is very important.

 

Grammar is the bones of communication (written and verbal) in the same way that addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division facts are the bones of mathematics.

[Janice in NJ]

We used a formal grammar program when the kids were little. We still do grammar exercises; my kids are in 7th, 9th, and 11th grade. I believe that it is massively important - as a skill and as a method for thinking.

 

Their background makes it easier to talk about ways to connect and subordinate ideas in both their thinking and their writing. Language is the expression of ideas, and very often my ideas don't become clear to me until I try to express them with words. Learning to link, connect, subordinate, and classify ideas is very important to me in our homeschool. Grammar instruction is one of the terrific tools that we use to teach that way of thinking when they are little. Opportunities to teach logical thinking between those early years of phonics instruction which I consider the first formal introduction to logical thinking and the jr high years which finally land us in the worlds of algebra and geometry are rare. I'll take what I can get.

 

I do not regret any of the time spent learning English grammar.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[8filltheheart]

We used a formal grammar program when the kids were little. We still do grammar exercises; my kids are in 7th, 9th, and 11th grade. I believe that it is massively important - as a skill and as a method for thinking.

 

Their background makes it easier to talk about ways to connect and subordinate ideas in both their thinking and their writing. Language is the expression of ideas, and very often my ideas don't become clear to me until I try to express them with words. Learning to link, connect, subordinate, and classify ideas is very important to me in our homeschool. Grammar instruction is one of the terrific tools that we use to teach that way of thinking when they are little. Opportunities to teach logical thinking between those early years of phonics instruction which I consider the first formal introduction to logical thinking and the jr high years which finally land us in the worlds of algebra and geometry are rare. I'll take what I can get.

 

I do not regret any of the time spent learning English grammar.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

:iagree:

 

It is so much easier to discuss writing when you can simply discuss it logically/technically b/c it is much less personal. (as they get older and you are grading their writing, taking evaluations personally is no fun.)

 

I can simply point out that they wrote in passive voice, lack sub/verb agreement, changed verb tense, have a comma splice, etc. When the grading is based on language that we mutually agree upon, communication is much easier. :D

[lulubelle]

I just follow TWTM to a "T".

[Mom0012]

I am doing grammar with my kids, but I'm trying to keep it fairly light by using CLE, which probably only takes about 10-20 minutes for the grammar portion. I was all set to use the most rigorous program I could find (Rod & Staff) and then I had a conversation with my husband that made me understand the whole grammar debate.

 

A few times this last year, there has been some grammar rule or song that I couldn't remember. My husband always seemed to know the answer. After discussing this with him a little, I discovered he has a wealth of knowledge about dangling participles, gerunds and all kinds of things I know nothing about. BUT, the man can't write one sentence that is grammatically correct! His writing is HORRIBLE.

 

On the other hand, I never had the education he did, but I have always been complimented on my writing. I was a legal secretary at one point and had a little book of grammar rules on my desk to refer to. That little book is where I learned all the rules in a very short amount of time. Since I am no longer writing like I used to, I have forgotten things, but I'm sure I will pick them back up quickly as I teach my children.

 

So, my feeling is that if you have someone with strong language skills, teaching them grammar will improve their writing, but it shouldn't take forever to teach this type of person the information. On the other hand, if you are dealing with someone with very weak language skills, it may not matter how much grammar you teach them because they may not ever be able to apply it.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Lisa