Has your child used a math that did NOT prepare him/her for college math?

[razorbackmama]

What was it?

 

I'm wanting input from people who have actually been there, not from people who have looked at a curriculum and determined that it will not prepare a student for college math. I KNOW the former exists - I've heard of it before. So I'm wondering if anyone else has - I'd like to steer clear of those curriculums.;)

 

Also, I'm talking about in situations where students have done WELL in the curriculum, THINKING they'd be fine. And then ending up in remedial math in college. I'm NOT talking about students who struggle with math or with the curriculum, and I'm also not talking about advanced math - I'm talking about the basic college algebra or whatever it is that college students are required to take.

[TravelingChris]

We don't have that problem but what I think is the problem is not the curriculum per se but not getting enough math before college to go into Calculus (which is the first class I consider College Math). Of all the major curriculums, I think they all either go through pre-calc or higher or else explicitly state that you will need to switch for more math.

[Susan C.]

My take is that with math oriented kids, it doesn't matter what curriculum they use, they will do well because that is how they are "wired." So I feel it has as much or more to do with the child than the curriculum. I have even seen kids do well in college with MUS and TT, which are considered easier curriculums. We switched curriculum a lot with our oldest, he got frustrated easily with it, but still did well when we got a good fit. I got him through Precalculus in 12th grade. He even tested ready for calculus, so he took it in college, but hit the wall! He got 150-200 points higher in the SAT critical reading and writing portions than he did in the math portion. So, it is a very real possibility that our son is more liberal arts inclined than math inclined. With this type of kid, you take them as far as they can go, even slowing it down to expose them to more than they would get at school, but probably have them take college algebra when they get to college.

 

Hope this makes sense!

[K-FL]

To answer your question: I haven't heard of one, but I think that would have more to do w/the dc actually doing the program or not.

 

Remember you don't have to have Calculus to be an English major. You just need 2 semesters of math (Interm. Alg, College Alg, Statistics all count.) If you know your dc are going for a math/science/engineering field, worry more about getting to Calculus. Even then you can take pre-Calc. in college, but it will slow down your sequence.

[razorbackmama]

To answer your question: I haven't heard of one, but I think that would have more to do w/the dc actually doing the program or not.

 

Like I said, I'm talking about kids who do the program and are doing well in it. Not necessarily "mathy" kids, but they aren't struggling either.

 

Remember you don't have to have Calculus to be an English major. You just need 2 semesters of math (Interm. Alg, College Alg, Statistics all count.) If you know your dc are going for a math/science/engineering field, worry more about getting to Calculus. Even then you can take pre-Calc. in college, but it will slow down your sequence.

 

I'm talking about just the basics. I have heard of kids who do a good job in the complete sequence in their math, THINKING they were prepared. Then they got to college and ended up in REMEDIAL math (not just not higher levels of math) because the curriculum they had used did not adequately prepare them.

[razorbackmama]

My take is that with math oriented kids, it doesn't matter what curriculum they use, they will do well because that is how they are "wired." So I feel it has as much or more to do with the child than the curriculum. I have even seen kids do well in college with MUS and TT, which are considered easier curriculums. We switched curriculum a lot with our oldest, he got frustrated easily with it, but still did well when we got a good fit. I got him through Precalculus in 12th grade. He even tested ready for calculus, so he took it in college, but hit the wall! He got 150-200 points higher in the SAT critical reading and writing portions than he did in the math portion. So, it is a very real possibility that our son is more liberal arts inclined than math inclined. With this type of kid, you take them as far as they can go, even slowing it down to expose them to more than they would get at school, but probably have them take college algebra when they get to college.

 

Hope this makes sense!

 

Right, and that makes sense. But that's not remedial math. I'm talking about curriculums that claim to prepare a student for college, and then once they get there they discover they aren't even prepared for college algebra, after THINKING they were doing great the whole time.

[razorbackmama]

We don't have that problem but what I think is the problem is not the curriculum per se but not getting enough math before college to go into Calculus (which is the first class I consider College Math). Of all the major curriculums, I think they all either go through pre-calc or higher or else explicitly state that you will need to switch for more math.

 

What I'm referring to are curriculums that "go through" pre-calculus or whatever, but then when the child actually COMPLETES that program, he discovers that he isn't even prepared for college algebra. This tells me that whatever program that is that CALLS itself "pre-calculus" ISN'T really, if that makes sense.

[K-FL]

What do you consider "the basics?"

 

With dd#1 we did Intro to Alg (Keys to Alg), Alg I (Math Relief phases 1 & 2), and SOS Geometry. That's not a lot of hs math, but she scored high enough (ACT) to take Statistics & Intermed. Alg. They're the entry level classes, but still college level. She also had to take College Alg. after Interm. to fulfil the 2 math semesters. With dual-enrollment, you can't take remedial classes @ the cc. She's not particularly mathy (will be an English Major @ the U.)

Edited August 11, 2009 by K-FL

[Quiver0f10]

I posted this a few months ago in a thread @ TT. This is just my experience with TT and I know others have used it and love it.

 

We switched to TT when my oldest was in Saxon Alg 1 and having a hard time. She did wonderful with TT and I was thrilled. She went from D's and F's in Saxon to A's with TT. That alone made me wonder about TT. Her first college Alg class was a disaster and she ended up dropping it. She was not ready at all.

 

In the meantime, after all the negative reviews I was reading, we decided to switch math again with the younger kids. One of my sons at the time was in 8th and had just finished TT Alg 1. I had him take the Saxon Alg 1 placement test to see where I'd place him. He absolutely bombed the Saxon Alg 1 placement test after finishing TT Alg 1!

 

We spent the summer doing Aleks to catch up and this year he is using Saxon Alg 1 and is scoring 90's consistantly.

 

So, in my limited experience TT is not only not rigorous enough it is far behind other curriculum in scope and sequence. My 11th grader is still using TT though because we didn't have time to start over using another program. He is going to have to take some math next year at the CC to get him ready for college math.

[LoriM]

We don't have that problem but what I think is the problem is not the curriculum per se but not getting enough math before college to go into Calculus (which is the first class I consider College Math). Of all the major curriculums, I think they all either go through pre-calc or higher or else explicitly state that you will need to switch for more math.

 

College Algebra is the first college math. Most degree programs require college algebra, and perhaps an applied math (like statistics).

 

Calculus is NOT the first college math. Calculus I is not the litmus test for college readiness.

 

Now, I do believe that well-educated people complete the calculus sequence. But I do not think you have to be calculus-ready at age 18, or else you are in "remedial" math.

 

The rush to calculus is going to ruin the math brain of this nation. Sigh.

[Carol in Cal.]

College Algebra is the first college math. Most degree programs require college algebra, and perhaps an applied math (like statistics).

 

Calculus is NOT the first college math. Calculus I is not the litmus test for college readiness.

 

Now, I do believe that well-educated people complete the calculus sequence. But I do not think you have to be calculus-ready at age 18, or else you are in "remedial" math.

 

The rush to calculus is going to ruin the math brain of this nation. Sigh.

 

Already when I attended college, back when 8th grade algebra was still almost unheard of and 9th grade algebra was normal to a bit ahead, it was expected that someone who was going to major in ANYTHING scientific would start taking calculus their first quarter at college. It was called Math 1A, and it introduced derivatives and their manipulation. Second quarter calculus was integral calculus.

 

I don't know whether there were college algebra classes available for other majors or not, but taking calculus as your first college math course was the norm. Nowadays people want kids to FINISH calculus by the end of high school -- thus the Algebra 1 in 8th grade, and the math wars over readiness vs. requirements. We could converse about whether or not that is appropriate, but I have to say, my goal for my math hating child is that she enter college ready for calculus. And I consider that sort of minimal, not aggressive, since so many others take calculus in high school now.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Carol in Cal.
Fix typo at end

[razorbackmama]

We switched to TT when my oldest was in Saxon Alg 1 and having a hard time. She did wonderful with TT and I was thrilled. She went from D's and F's in Saxon to A's with TT. That alone made me wonder about TT. Her first college Alg class was a disaster and she ended up dropping it. She was not ready at all.

 

Thanks, Jean! This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I'm wondering about. Did she complete TT all the way through pre-calculus? What about your current 11th grader - will he complete the sequence but then still have to go onto remedial courses at the CC in order to college algebra?

[Quiver0f10]

Thanks, Jean! This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I'm wondering about. Did she complete TT all the way through pre-calculus? What about your current 11th grader - will he complete the sequence but then still have to go onto remedial courses at the CC in order to college algebra?

 

Neither did it through pre-calc because it wasn't finished yet. My son ended up doing remedial math last year at the CC and enters the CC as a freshman this fall.

[Jane in NC]

College Algebra is the first college math. Most degree programs require college algebra, and perhaps an applied math (like statistics).

 

Calculus is NOT the first college math. Calculus I is not the litmus test for college readiness.

 

Now, I do believe that well-educated people complete the calculus sequence. But I do not think you have to be calculus-ready at age 18, or else you are in "remedial" math.

 

The rush to calculus is going to ruin the math brain of this nation. Sigh.

 

Lori, I fear that your statement is not true for all students at all colleges. As Carol in Cal points out, a number of schools expect students to be exposed to at least some Calculus. In fact, while CCs liberally give credit for College Algebra, this is not true for all universities or for all programs at all universities. I would remind parents to check with the college as well as consider your student's goals. My son is not mathy--he is not bad in math, but he does not share my joy in the subject. The LACs to which he is applying expect their applicants to have AP Calculus AB as a minimum. Granted, not all students do, so this is not necessarily stated as a requirement, but if you talk to people about the background of the "average" applicant, one learns that even the non-engineering crowd is expected to try their hand at Differential Calculus in high school.

 

Again, your experience may be different.

 

I would caution parents to consider the college and the program. Few students at NCSU succeed in Engineering if they have to begin their math courses in Precalc.

 

Jane

[jibaker103]

Neither did it through pre-calc because it wasn't finished yet. My son ended up doing remedial math last year at the CC and enters the CC as a freshman this fall.

 

In all fairness TT explains that you need to finish the whole sequence in order to get all of the necessary math to prepare you for college math. The way I understand it is their sequence is in a different order than most others and does go a bit slower.

 

Jennifer

Mother to Noah Age 13

[creekland]

I can tell you it happens fairly often in our ps. We've had kids graduate 2nd highest in their class having taken our top classes including Calc, Stats and advanced sciences, then have to go into remedial classes at college. It's part of why we chose to homeschool when my kids hit the high school level.

 

I use TT for my kids. My oldest got an extremely good math score on the SAT. My middle son scores extremely well on practice SAT tests. I'm not at all worried about how they will do in college.

 

I think the best math curriculum is one the student can use, relate to, and remember from - regardless of publisher.

[Quiver0f10]

In all fairness TT explains that you need to finish the whole sequence in order to get all of the necessary math to prepare you for college math. The way I understand it is their sequence is in a different order than most others and does go a bit slower.

 

Jennifer

Mother to Noah Age 13

 

I have heard that also and had they used the pre-calc maybe they would have had a different experience. Hard to know.

[EKS]

Back in the 80s, at my college, the first math course was calculus.

[Susan C.]

My son's college (a 4 yr. college) has one each of the calculus classes with 2-8 people each in them. There are 10 full college algebra classes, and a few more with labs attached for remedial. But this is a liberal arts college. So, for this college, calculus is not the norm.

 

As for not testing into college math, I was told it happens all of the time, even for kids that have taken calculus. They didn't retain it for one reason or another. Sometimes you need to see the math more than once for it to stick. So it is not failure if you have to go back a few levels.

[LoriM]

 

Again, your experience may be different.

 

I would caution parents to consider the college and the program. Few students at NCSU succeed in Engineering if they have to begin their math courses in Precalc.

 

Jane

 

My experience is ENTIRELY different, and this attitude is going to always keep quality students from pursuing further study of mathematics. Goodness.

 

I cannot IMAGINE telling an 18yo that they cannot successfully become an engineer in ANY program at ANY school (and NCSU is not the be-all, end-all of high quality engineering programs, though it is certainly a good one) if they haven't already completed Calc AB prior to admission! Students come in all shapes and backgrounds--many public schools simply don't offer AP Calculus, even in 2009. Not to mention how many students don't go directly to university as an 18 year old.

 

This head-in-the-sand traditionalism is an artificial ceiling for students. Barring true intelligence limitations, any student, any where, with any wiring, can learn and study mathematics--and yes, at the Calculus level and beyond. But many very young students (15, 16 or 17 years old) get directed to intermediate maths (perhaps applied maths, or discrete maths) and don't get pushed to Calculus so early. These same students may make life decisions that have them working for 3-5 years before going to college. As engineers. LOL. I cannot help but think about the thousands of military service men and women who do that very thing...and then end up as Department Chairs of Engineering schools later in life after a nice military career.

 

It is absolutely reasonable for someone to start at College Algebra (the first college math), and follow along in the Calculus sequence. It is not "remedial" to do so.

 

There are hundreds of majors for which College Algebra is the *only* college math required. And probably millions of people who claim they don't even use that in their daily lives...LOL.

 

Still, your caution is perfect--everyone should prepare for whatever path they believe is the one they want, at whatever school they hope to attend. I just always want to say LOUDLY and with vigor (LOL) that just because a student doesn't take Calc AB in high school doesn't preclude them from being the president of an engineering firm later in life. :)

[SusanAR]

Back in the 80s, at my college, the first math course was calculus.

 

Well, I'm from back in the 70's :eek:(graduated HS in 76), and I took calculus. I worked hard and made the grade, but didn't really know what calculus "studied' until I began homeschooling:001_smile:

[Perry]

 

It is absolutely reasonable for someone to start at College Algebra (the first college math), and follow along in the Calculus sequence. It is not "remedial" to do so.

 

I went to college in the late 70s, when Calculus was the first college course. I've never even heard of College Algebra until very recently. What is it, and how is it different than high school algebra? Is it a review course? More intensive algebra? I googled, and the descriptions sound like a condensed Algebra 1/2 class. With all the emphasis on 4 years of high school math, it surprises me that so many kids would be taking algebra in college.

[Julie in MN]

Most degree programs require college algebra, and perhaps an applied math (like statistics).

 

Actually, I agree with K-FL that liberal arts colleges may not require any specific college math course, as long as you take something. Same with science.

 

But otherwise I agree with you, Lori. It's not how high but how deep.

Julie

[8filltheheart]

My experience is ENTIRELY different, and this attitude is going to always keep quality students from pursuing further study of mathematics. Goodness.

 

I cannot IMAGINE telling an 18yo that they cannot successfully become an engineer in ANY program at ANY school (and NCSU is not the be-all, end-all of high quality engineering programs, though it is certainly a good one) if they haven't already completed Calc AB prior to admission! Students come in all shapes and backgrounds--many public schools simply don't offer AP Calculus, even in 2009. Not to mention how many students don't go directly to university as an 18 year old.

 

This head-in-the-sand traditionalism is an artificial ceiling for students. Barring true intelligence limitations, any student, any where, with any wiring, can learn and study mathematics--and yes, at the Calculus level and beyond. But many very young students (15, 16 or 17 years old) get directed to intermediate maths (perhaps applied maths, or discrete maths) and don't get pushed to Calculus so early. These same students may make life decisions that have them working for 3-5 years before going to college. As engineers. LOL. I cannot help but think about the thousands of military service men and women who do that very thing...and then end up as Department Chairs of Engineering schools later in life after a nice military career.

 

It is absolutely reasonable for someone to start at College Algebra (the first college math), and follow along in the Calculus sequence. It is not "remedial" to do so.

 

There are hundreds of majors for which College Algebra is the *only* college math required. And probably millions of people who claim they don't even use that in their daily lives...LOL.

 

Still, your caution is perfect--everyone should prepare for whatever path they believe is the one they want, at whatever school they hope to attend. I just always want to say LOUDLY and with vigor (LOL) that just because a student doesn't take Calc AB in high school doesn't preclude them from being the president of an engineering firm later in life. :)

 

Lori,

 

I don't know about being able to succeed long term, but it will seriously lengthen their undergrad yrs. Any math below cal will typically not be counted toward degree credit hrs. Physics is cal based. Engineering courses have differential equations as a pre-req. All those courses are going to have to be put off until they have met the pre-reqs. That means typical sophomore courses might not be able to taken until their jr or sr yr......adding 2 yrs to undergrad (keep in mind that most upper level courses are only offered a single semester/yr and are based on a typical freshman/soph cal 1, 2, 3, diff equ sequence.

 

Also, any student hoping to major in engineering w/o the math background will be competing against those with for admissions.

Edited August 12, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart

[Jane in NC]

 

I cannot IMAGINE telling an 18yo that they cannot successfully become an engineer in ANY program at ANY school (and NCSU is not the be-all, end-all of high quality engineering programs, though it is certainly a good one) if they haven't already completed Calc AB prior to admission! Students come in all shapes and backgrounds--many public schools simply don't offer AP Calculus, even in 2009. Not to mention how many students don't go directly to university as an 18 year old.

 

 

 

Lori,

 

You are misquoting me here. I would never tell a student that he could not successfully complete an engineering degree on the basis of not having studied Calculus in high school. Many of my engineering students at NCSU (when I taught there years ago) began their math sequence with Calc I. Some of these students were exposed to Calculus in high school, some not. A number of other engineering students begin their math sequence with Calc II, a few with Calc III or Differential Equations. It is the rare student who begins an engineering program with precalc. Sure--there are plenty of anecdotal tales to share, but these students are fewer in number. If I had a student who wished to pursue engineering, I would prepare him by having a solid high school mathematics background.

 

NCSU may not be the "be-all, end-all of high quality engineering programs", quoting you again. I was simply attempting to be specific. I have not taught at any other engineering schools. I have not attended an engineering school. NCSU and my husband's alma mater (Lehigh) are the two engineering programs with which I am acquainted.

 

 

This head-in-the-sand traditionalism is an artificial ceiling for students. Barring true intelligence limitations, any student, any where, with any wiring, can learn and study mathematics--and yes, at the Calculus level and beyond. But many very young students (15, 16 or 17 years old) get directed to intermediate maths (perhaps applied maths, or discrete maths) and don't get pushed to Calculus so early. These same students may make life decisions that have them working for 3-5 years before going to college. As engineers. LOL. I cannot help but think about the thousands of military service men and women who do that very thing...and then end up as Department Chairs of Engineering schools later in life after a nice military career.

 

 

 

 

I am one of the first to criticize the "rush to Calculus" promoted by modern math educators (not mathematicians who know there is much more to mathematics). I question your use of the term "traditionalist" since high school Calculus courses are anything but traditional if you were to examine the history of US Math education.

 

Modern math educators may have their heads in the sand--or were you referring to me specifically?

 

 

It is absolutely reasonable for someone to start at College Algebra (the first college math), and follow along in the Calculus sequence. It is not "remedial" to do so.

 

There are hundreds of majors for which College Algebra is the *only* college math required. And probably millions of people who claim they don't even use that in their daily lives...LOL.

 

Still, your caution is perfect--everyone should prepare for whatever path they believe is the one they want, at whatever school they hope to attend. I just always want to say LOUDLY and with vigor (LOL) that just because a student doesn't take Calc AB in high school doesn't preclude them from being the president of an engineering firm later in life. :)

 

My son's number one college choice does not offer College Algebra or Precalculus. This is why I caution parents to check with the college.

 

Secondly, I would consider future trends. For example, biology was formerly a major that required a semester or two of applied Calculus at many schools. Today's ecologists and microbiologists are modeling dynamical systems using differential equations. If my student were leaning toward biology, I would want to insure that he will be ready for tomorrow's biological research--not just today's. Granted, none of us has a crystal ball.

 

I also believe in life long learning. But this does not preclude me from my desire to offer a solid foundation to my son while he is in high school.

 

Jane

[Gwen in VA]

The degree of math background required depends strongly on the college.

 

My dd's two final college choices were between one state school where calculus 1 was a 200-level class and a LAC where calculus 1 was a 100-level class.

 

At one engineering school I know AND at one LAC I know, the lowest level math available is Calculus 1. Obviously the chances of getting accepted to either school if a student is not totally prepared to take calculus 1 are fairly slim. (Especially since at both colleges calculus 1 is required for graduation!)

 

 

If your student is interested in engineering, he DEFINITELY needs to be ready to take calculus 1 first semester freshman year. (Ideally he will have taken it already.) Why? Very simple -- All engineering students that I know of are required to take calculs-based physics before they can pursue highler-level engineering class. If your student cannot take that physics class first semester freshman year, the chances of his being able to graduate on time decrease dramatically.

 

People can go far in life without calculus, but competitive college applicants will more likely have some background in caculus, and they will at a minimum be totally ready to take calculus first semester freshman year.

 

One other thing -- Linear algebra is a non-remedial math class for math majors and nerdy engineers. It may sound like "college algebra" but at my ds's college, calculus 1 is a prerequisite for it!

[Blueridge]

I've enjoyed this thread. You ladies are so knowledgeable and wonderful to share your varied opinions. It does, however, bring to mind a sad remembrance of my oldest dd. She attended a public K program for 2 days. On her first day, I took her and sat in the back of the room (with a few other curious parents) and sat, shocked, as the teacher proceeded to divide the class into *groups* according to reading ability. My dd could only read a few 3 letter words at that time. The teacher stood there, shaking her head, saying out loud that 'She couldn't believe how many parents sent their children to school UNPREPARED.' Sorry, I thought kindergarten was THE place to learn how to read. :confused: How silly I must have seemed to that teacher...sending my dd in her shiny new shoes and engraved pencils and 10 course lunch...and not thinking to have taught her to read yet. Sigh. I withdrew her the next day after finding out that her 'failed' reading test put her in the *cold, prickly patch* (an actual labeled spot on the bulletin board.) Sorry for the detour from the OP's question, but it seems as though we can never prepare our children enough. We do the absolute best that we can for our our children's sake. We follow the WTM recommendations. But we don't need to hide in shame or embarrassment if our kids don't attain the level of high school training that some do. Some love math, do well with math, and are successful with the highest levels of math. Others scrape by, no matter what we use. Some people were destined to be math scholars, while others are destined to be painters of masterpieces. Bravo to those ladies who can pull it off! But me...I'll sit in the cold, prickly patch and make daisy chains.

[TravelingChris]

This is why so many employers look at the reputation of the school and almost all graduate schools do. I do not think that Caluclus in required in high school. I do think that to be a competitive college student and go to a good school, you do need to be finished with pre-calc and be ready to take Calc. Do you need to take Calc? That depends on the school. SOme let hum majors take science instead, some have remedial classes in Algebra, some like community colleges are dumbed down, some take statistics or some alternate math class. But for the majority of social science, and physical and biological sciences, you need to take calculus in college. How much depends on your major- more for physical sciences, less for poly sci. However, if you are serious about getting ahead in your field, I would strongly suggest a year of even the easiest Calc for anyone in social science or bio science. So much of advanced research is now mathematically based and it is easier to learn at 18 then after college when you are struggling in grad school. In fact, the people who couldn't complete their MA in criminal justice were invariably those who didn't have the math skill for heavy duty stat.

 

Do I think that a sixteen year old who is starting dual enrollment at cc needs Calc as a first math at that college- no. But I have now decided that I am crossing out colleges from my dd list if they do allow so called college algebra for math requirement foir anyone other than a hum major. At the college my dh and I attended, everyone except certain kids with math problems took calc and those ones had some kind of remedial class and they were very few in number and all were hum majors like English or some other language. The lowest level class with Algebra in its title was Linear ALgebra which was a more advanced class than Calculus.

[LoriM]

I think we are talking apples and oranges here. Obviously, none of us (here) at WTM are here because we want a mediocre education for our children, at any age. GRIN. And, as I proudly state early and often, I have a 20yo graduating with a BA in mathematics in December, who is still maintaining a 4.0 GPA. She came home at age 12, so I don't think I "held her back" in mathematics (LOL) during the high school years. And now she's talking a PhD in mathematics, so you can imagine my pride. This, from a very talented cartoonist/illustrator, who has a really hard time leaving her colored pencils behind (and probably won't, ever).

 

In fact, most of her success is specifically due to those "math converstations" you are discussing in another thread. Her entry into Calculus was very gentle, since we did "conceptual Calculus" from a very early age, and actually spent a full year in a real "conceptual Calculus" where she primarily mimicked and copied Calculus solutions and proofs. Occasionally she'd generate her own solution, but it was rare. :) She was 15. So, you can say we did math very classically, with copywork and discussion.

 

My "rant" is not directed at you guys--you know how much I love you! :) My rant is directed at the pervasive theme that students who did not get that far in math in high school need to "settle" for something else in college. That Calculus is the defining math pivot-point.

 

I just want to continue to give hope to those home school parents who have kids who finish Pre-Calculus at home. They can certainly take College Algebra for most majors in college. And pursue a liberal arts education...or even later decide to be engineers.

 

I absolutely agree with future trends...which is why a kid who gets turned on by a field that requires modeling or other advanced math can rely on those courses to be available at the college level.

 

You are right...I don't take into account lengthening the undergraduate process. I'm a heretic. I actually think lengthening the process is *good* for students. More of them should work (even if it meant taking a semester off), take internships, and be much older than 22 when they move out into the world. I have a kid graduating at 20. Frankly, I wish she were staying home, and studying for a MS for three more years before she marries and gets going...but it didn't work out that way. :) And I have a big philosophical difference than most as well...elite colleges are a fine choice for some, but not necessary for a good, productive life and career.

 

Anyway...solid foundations abound! But it's not a limit. It's a goal, with some limitations implied, like any other goal.

[HollyinNNV]

What was it?

 

I'm wanting input from people who have actually been there, not from people who have looked at a curriculum and determined that it will not prepare a student for college math. I KNOW the former exists - I've heard of it before. So I'm wondering if anyone else has - I'd like to steer clear of those curriculums.;)

 

Also, I'm talking about in situations where students have done WELL in the curriculum, THINKING they'd be fine. And then ending up in remedial math in college. I'm NOT talking about students who struggle with math or with the curriculum, and I'm also not talking about advanced math - I'm talking about the basic college algebra or whatever it is that college students are required to take.

 

I think that the bummer is that you are just not going to get enough data to make any informed decisions. Blue Hen could probably offer a better explanation than I. It would take a lot of evidence carefully gathered in a scientific manner to really draw any conclusions.

Holly

Holly

[LoriM]

I think that the bummer is that you are just not going to get enough data to make any informed decisions. Blue Hen could probably offer a better explanation than I. It would take a lot of evidence carefully gathered in a scientific manner to really draw any conclusions.

Holly

Holly

 

By the way, I'm sorry I hijacked your thread. :) And I agree with Holly, you can make a "gut" decision based on the info you receive, and you might really trust the person who gives you the info, but it won't be valid.

 

In my experience, the students I've tutored who weren't prepared for college math were not prepared for a variety of reasons. Usually, it was just that they didn't *work* the curriculum that they had, not that the material itself was inadequate. (And they didn't work it for a variety of reasons, too...jobs, teen stress, family issues, no tutoring available regularly, etc.)

 

Lori

[Carol in Cal.]

On her first day, I took her and sat in the back of the room (with a few other curious parents) and sat, shocked, as the teacher proceeded to divide the class into *groups* according to reading ability. My dd could only read a few 3 letter words at that time. The teacher stood there, shaking her head, saying out loud that 'She couldn't believe how many parents sent their children to school UNPREPARED.' Sorry, I thought kindergarten was THE place to learn how to read. :confused: How silly I must have seemed to that teacher...sending my dd in her shiny new shoes and engraved pencils and 10 course lunch...and not thinking to have taught her to read yet. Sigh. I withdrew her the next day after finding out that her 'failed' reading test put her in the *cold, prickly patch* (an actual labeled spot on the bulletin board.)

 

I am so sorry that anyone will do this!!!

 

I can't imagine how we can be a good society when we label so many children as failures starting in kindergarten!

 

This is one of the reasons that I homeschool. It's kind of paradoxical. On the one hand, I want a really strong, challenging program for my DD and I want her to have a really good education. On the other hand, I want her to grow at a reasonable pace FOR HER, and not to be or see others be labelled.

 

So glad that you're homeschooling your daughter. So glad that you didn't let her decide that she was a failure at 5. How tragic that so many children decide that, deep inside, secretly; and hold themselves back from then on. How ridiculous that as a society we encourage that horrid result.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

In fact, most of her success is specifically due to those "math converstations" you are discussing in another thread. Her entry into Calculus was very gentle, since we did "conceptual Calculus" from a very early age, and actually spent a full year in a real "conceptual Calculus" where she primarily mimicked and copied Calculus solutions and proofs. Occasionally she'd generate her own solution, but it was rare. :) She was 15. So, you can say we did math very classically, with copywork and discussion.

 

I just want to continue to give hope to those home school parents who have kids who finish Pre-Calculus at home. They can certainly take College Algebra for most majors in college. And pursue a liberal arts education...or even later decide to be engineers.

 

 

 

When I was in high school, pre-calculus was as far as I got. Algebra was before, not after, pre-calculus. Pre-calculus is as far as I think my DD will get before college, but then she should be able to go right into Calculus in her freshman year, and that is my goal. I'm not sure anymore what you're calling College Algebra. Maybe we are talking past each other.

 

I'm also curious about your reference to Conceptual Calculus--is that a program? a book? a curriculum? It sounds like it would be a good parallel thing to do with DD while she is learning high school mathematics. I have been telling her for years that arithmetic gets more and more challenging, and then all of the sudden you hit actual MATH and it is much easier--that Algebra and Calculus really make it easier to do things that you already have learned how to do with more difficulty in arithmetic and geometry. I would like to give her more of an introduction to calculus to keep her motivated to keep moving through math.

 

She really, really hates math, and I regret it a great deal, but she is learning it anyway, albeit with rather poor grades.

[lgm]

One needs to be prepared for Calc I at the minimum if going in to engineering on the 4 or 5 yr plan. My alma mater publishes success rates for engineering students based on their math prep prior to admission. Those that have the most math do the best. Top city high school honors students typically have completed the Calc I-II-III sequence and are ready for DiffEq or Linear Alg. Rural students typically have finished Calc I or pre-Calc. If students aren't ready for pre-calc, there is no math course for them to take. Note: everyone has to take the math dept's placement test.

 

Back to the OPs question. Many fine curriculums cannot prepare a student if the insight was not developed or even chapters skipped. It is quite possible for students with good memories to pass their classes, but fail to develop key understandings.

 

It might be helpful to take a look at college placement test type of problems: http://mathonline.missouri.edu/

Here is one opinion on the calculus trap: http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/AoPS_R_A_Calculus.php

Edited August 12, 2009 by lgm

[LoriM]

I'm also curious about your reference to Conceptual Calculus--is that a program? a book? a curriculum? It sounds like it would be a good parallel thing to do with DD while she is learning high school mathematics. I have been telling her for years that arithmetic gets more and more challenging, and then all of the sudden you hit actual MATH and it is much easier--that Algebra and Calculus really make it easier to do things that you already have learned how to do with more difficulty in arithmetic and geometry. I would like to give her more of an introduction to calculus to keep her motivated to keep moving through math.

 

She really, really hates math, and I regret it a great deal, but she is learning it anyway, albeit with rather poor grades.

 

No, conceptual Calculus is something I made up. LOL. As I worked through Pre-Calculus (I wrote my own material to transition from MUS Trigonometry to a "Calc for Life Science" majors--Calc Lite) to Calculus ideas with my daughters, I simply drew them along to the ideas of calculus, conceptually. And yes, before they could generate their own solutions to hard problems, I put hard problems before them, and had them copy or follow along and explain back solutions for me. So, we approached math classically. Now, I don't mean we burned through Euclid or some of the other "classical" texts, but that I used copywork, recitation, memorization, chants, songs, and other classical methodologies in math. She read math history/biographies, listened to math stories, and put the topics we studied into historical context. Why did Newton *need* that math when he needed it? And what would we have done if he hadn't figured it out!? LOL. (Then we went to Cambridge, and saw Newton's apple tree...it was a very good year for math and history.)

 

My dd hated math too. And she thought she wasn't very good at it. Sometimes she wasn't...but then when she took College Algebra and PreCalculus and Calc I and Statistics at the CC...she felt better. Because what she had developed over the years of reading, thinking and learning at our house was the ability to listen respectfully, take copious notes, do all her homework faithfully, ask meaningful questions, and make her brain think. That's all anyone really needs to succeed in any college class, in my experience.

 

I think she majored in math because she trusted it to be true, KWIM? It was very self-reliant...do good work, do it well, get rewarded. As opposed to "write a paper, have some limited thinker trash it, get no credit." LOL. OTOH, she's learning that proofs are just math-writing. :) But a still a little more "true" than essays.

 

No, I think you know what College Algebra is...it is a one-semester course that covers linear equations, systems of linear equations, quadratic equations and their applications, simple trig, traditional applied algebra problems like rates and work and exponential growth applications like interest and biological growth/decay, and sometimes includes matrix algebra fundamentals. Pre-Calculus usually takes off from there, with trig functions, polynomials, some modeling, and goes all the way to the idea of the limit, and occasionally into differential calculus.

 

Anyway, just because a student does a year-long course of PreCalculus as a senior in high school doesn't necessarily mean it's in her best interest to move straight into Calc I. Some can, some would benefit from much more solid understanding in algebra.

[Susan C.]

Don't let an engineering major pressure you to get your child into calculus 1 in college. We did precalc. in 12th grade, and my son barely tested into calculus. He took it and it was a disaster. But, since he was considering engineering, I encouraged him to take it along with the advanced chemistry. Awful. If you are starting with Calculus 1, you are already adding to the four year degree, because there are 4 math courses after that. Much better to be on the level you need to be, and add that year if you need to. Most engineering majors are five years now anyway. My son has such a bad taste in his mouth about it that I doubt he will do it now. My dad was a brilliant engineer, and my son wanted to try to do that as well. But his first year of college was too strenuous. They really kill engineering majors at college, they do many times the work of other majors. I really feel that is why there is a shortage of engineers. My son, even though he failed calculus 2, can tell you what it is about, the concepts, etc. He just couldn't do it as fast as they wanted him to. Well, they lost one prospect, we are moving on :)

 

BTW, his college also has a business calculus class for business majors that everyone says is easy. I wanted him to take that for calculus prep but they said no.

[Julie in MN]

Don't let an engineering major pressure you to get your child into calculus 1 in college. We did precalc. in 12th grade, and my son barely tested into calculus. He took it and it was a disaster. But, since he was considering engineering, I encouraged him to take it along with the advanced chemistry. Awful. If you are starting with Calculus 1, you are already adding to the four year degree, because there are 4 math courses after that. Much better to be on the level you need to be, and add that year if you need to. Most engineering majors are five years now anyway. My son has such a bad taste in his mouth about it that I doubt he will do it now. My dad was a brilliant engineer, and my son wanted to try to do that as well. But his first year of college was too strenuous. They really kill engineering majors at college, they do many times the work of other majors. I really feel that is why there is a shortage of engineers. My son, even though he failed calculus 2, can tell you what it is about, the concepts, etc. He just couldn't do it as fast as they wanted him to. Well, they lost one prospect, we are moving on :)

 

BTW, his college also has a business calculus class for business majors that everyone says is easy. I wanted him to take that for calculus prep but they said no.

 

Susan,

I can't totally follow whether you're saying not to do Calculus in high school OR college?

 

Anyways, I agree that first year engineering school is a killer and apparently "weeds out" the noncommitted. I've heard that about both MN and CO schools where my son & his friends have gone.

 

But the "basic plan" at all of them is to start with Calculus I as a college freshman. In fact, my ds had already had Calculus I at a local cc, but he wanted to be part of his freshman class, so he took it again. Said he was sure to learn "something" :)

 

And he graduated in 4 years, so there wasn't an expectation of 5 years of math that I can see.

Julie

[8filltheheart]

Susan,

I can't totally follow whether you're saying not to do Calculus in high school OR college?

 

Anyways, I agree that first year engineering school is a killer and apparently "weeds out" the noncommitted.

And he graduated in 4 years, so there wasn't an expectation of 5 years of math that I can see.

Julie

 

 

I agree. The expectation is cal 1,2,3 and differential equations over the 4 semesters of your freshman and sophomore yrs.

 

Honestly, I believe it is a blessing that kids are weeded out in their freshman yr. Cal is the easiest of all the engineering requirements. So is chemistry. If a student is struggling in cal or chemistry, than the probability of their being able to succeed in upper level science and engineering courses is rather slim. The upper level courses simply are hard. That is the reality.

 

I was married to my dh during college. I was a double major in child psy and elementary ed. He was majoring in chemE. I went to bed at 10. He went to bed at 3 am. We both had 750 am classes. Yes, it is a killer major that doesn't allow for much outside of work.

 

But......these people become responsible for million dollar operations and processes that could kill thousands of people if they don't know what they are doing.

[Hoggirl]

A semester of Calculus was required for my degree in Economics/Business/Accounting. If I had needed to take a pre-requisite math class it would have counted as an elective, but it would not have fulfilled my degree requirement. As it was, I didn't need a pre-req.

 

I did not take Calculus in high school b/c I moved from Florida to Arkansas and the school in Arkansas did not offer it. Thus, I had pre-calc (or trig. + analytical geometry as it was called then) two years in a row for both 11th and 12th grades. At least I was well-prepared!

[langfam]

I agree that a solid math foundation is more important than rushing to Calculus by 12th grade. My son is enrolled in the Georgia Tech Regional Engineering Program and will start next week. At Orientation, before advisement, there was a presentation of statistics of the number of kids who flunked Calculus 1 the first semester. I don't remember the number but it was very high. The professor was encouraging the students to start at Precalculus level. My son had done Calculus I in 12th grade and he said there was no way he would start at Precal, so agreed to do Calculus I again. During his hs years, getting him to Calculus was my top priority....now I see that I needn't have stressed out too much about it.

[Janet in WA]

Doesn't look like you're going to get an answer to your precise question, Kirstin. That, in itself, is probably your answer.

[Susan C.]

Susan,

I can't totally follow whether you're saying not to do Calculus in high school OR college?

 

Anyways, I agree that first year engineering school is a killer and apparently "weeds out" the noncommitted. I've heard that about both MN and CO schools where my son & his friends have gone.

 

But the "basic plan" at all of them is to start with Calculus I as a college freshman. In fact, my ds had already had Calculus I at a local cc, but he wanted to be part of his freshman class, so he took it again. Said he was sure to learn "something" :)

 

And he graduated in 4 years, so there wasn't an expectation of 5 years of math that I can see.

Julie

 

Sorry about that, I would only do calculus if and when there is an ability to do it. I was always good at math, but only went through analytical geometry, dropped out before the trig. I looked at my son's calculus books, and got weak.... so I feel that calculus isn't for everyone and can't be forced.

 

I called a college (that has engineering majors) in our state about the math. I was told that they want you ready to take calculus first semester "in a perfect world" but it doesn't always happen. Some engineering majors do start with the college algebra. They just have to make up the extra math during the summer or add a semester or two. A friend of mine in NC enrolled her son for engineering there without even doing precalc., they said they would teach it and he could go five years.

[Susan C.]

I agree that a solid math foundation is more important than rushing to Calculus by 12th grade. My son is enrolled in the Georgia Tech Regional Engineering Program and will start next week. At Orientation, before advisement, there was a presentation of statistics of the number of kids who flunked Calculus 1 the first semester. I don't remember the number but it was very high. The professor was encouraging the students to start at Precalculus level. My son had done Calculus I in 12th grade and he said there was no way he would start at Precal, so agreed to do Calculus I again. During his hs years, getting him to Calculus was my top priority....now I see that I needn't have stressed out too much about it.

 

:iagree:

[Julie in MN]

Doesn't look like you're going to get an answer to your precise question, Kirstin. That, in itself, is probably your answer.

 

:blush: Sorry for the hijack. I admit I can't answer the question but just joined in on the conversation :tongue_smilie:

[creekland]

At Orientation, before advisement, there was a presentation of statistics of the number of kids who flunked Calculus 1 the first semester. I don't remember the number but it was very high. The professor was encouraging the students to start at Precalculus level.

 

At college visits we made this past spring more than one school told us the students who do the best are those that have seen calculus in high school, but not taken it for credit. Then they redo it in college with an advantage. Part of the reasoning behind this is the math itself. The other part is the 'transfer' to college life and getting used to a new routine when there are plenty of other options for ones time.

 

This is the path we have chosen for our son. He will do Chalkdust's Calc this year in high school, but will not take the AP test for credit. This son has already passed our cc college's math placement test into Calc with flying colors... He might get a little bored freshman fall semester, but I'd rather have bored than overwhelmed.

 

Edited to add that we chose to do Chalkdust over cc for Calc due to the cost.

[PeterPan]

Absolutely you want to go through calc in high school then repeat in college if you can. (if you're planning to do calc in college, that is) That's what I did, and even though I flew through it, it made that freshman transition easier and solidified my understanding.

 

My dh had a poor math background going into engineering school and had to repeat some classes, backtrack, etc. He didn't understand his poor preparation going in. His parents would have done better to have paid for a tutor and gotten him a solid foundation rather than paying for a 5th year of engineering school, ugh.

Edited August 13, 2009 by OhElizabeth

[TRILLIUM]

Not all schools consider College Algebra to be a college level course. In talking to an admission counselor from Washington University in St. Louis she stressed that their lowest college level math course was calculus. She said a strong applicant---and I'm not talking for the engineering program, my daughter is thinking pre-med with a science major---would take calculus and physics in high school . I don't know if this is common among more selective schools, my husband works at Wash U so we get free admission--if our children can manage to get accepted.

[LoriM]

Not all schools consider College Algebra to be a college level course.

 

I know there are elite schools that begin with Calculus (although to have no lower level maths at all on their campus is silly, IMHO). And I don't doubt you, I'm not questioning this data AT ALL.

 

But is that sentence (quoted) the most ludicrous thing you've ever read? COLLEGE algebra is not a *college* level math? Really? LOL!

 

I'm not picking on YOU, Trillium. Honest. I wish you could hear my tone. I guess I am on my own here...I just don't believe students *MUST* have Calculus prior to college, nor do I think that Calculus must be the first college math for a successful career. Yes, even a successful career in the sciences and engineering.

 

I have a young man in my home right now (my house is the hangout for all young adults--LOL) who is pursuing an engineering degree. He is 21 years old. He will be taking COLLEGE ALGEBRA this fall. You see, when he was a dual enrolled high schooler, he opted to take HVAC courses at the CC, and has been making a very nice living wage now for two years while going to school for the academic portion of his college transfer program. Sure, he's stringing things out...and growing up, owning his own home, and knowing his own mind all in the process. It's a pretty cool thing to watch. If I had a son, I'd be more than satisfied to watch him do just this thing.

 

College students (like families) just aren't all that "traditional" any more. So many paths to the same place! Or, an equally good place, anyway.

 

Of course, I will absolutely agree that ONE path is to take AP Calc BC at age 18, and head off to an elite school and go straight into Calc II or even Calc III. I had a kid in my grad school who was working on his PhD when he was 20, because he'd done just that--CLEP'd most of the Calculus sequence, DE and burned through theoretical maths. Good on him. (He also challenged many courses, and just took final exams. I often thought it would hurt to have a brain like that! LOL!)

 

I'm probably never going to buy the argument that "the first college math is Calculus" for all majors and all students at all schools. But I will stop trying to convince anyone to do anything except check with the schools they plan to attend, and the degree programs they plan to pursue.

 

Hey, I'm happy to think more students are going to do Calculus! I just wish they were doing it with numeracy and good math habits that they could develop if they'd spend a bit longer on algebra! GRIN.

[TRILLIUM]

Well Washington University is hardly one of your mainstream schools. Its middle 50% math SAT scores are 700-780. I was pretty stunned when I heard that they do not grant credit for any math below calculus. Still I thought I'd mention it in case a selective school might be in someones future. If we had not had a special meeting with the admissions people because my husband was an employee I don't know when I would have realized that we really needed to finish College Algebra and Trig in high school if our dd wanted to attend Washington University.

 

 

BTW the admissions person did say that calculus before college was not required. Even as an engineer at Wash U you don't have to do calculus before college---but you do need to finish three semesters before your sophomore year---so you do a semester either the summer before freshman year or between freshman and sophomore. I picked that up because as a former engineer myself I was curious about the engineering math requirements.

[lgm]

 

But is that sentence (quoted) the most ludicrous thing you've ever read? COLLEGE algebra is not a *college* level math? Really? LOL!

 

.

 

I don't find it ludicrous to say College Algebra is not college level. Why?

In my state, the course objectives for College Algebra are equivalent to the objectives for high school Algebra II. High school Alg. II is required of all high school students in order to earn the high school diploma. Those that go on to a college without learning Alg.II well enough to pass the college math placement exam must take it again, renamed as College Algebra. The college credit is counted as satisfying a liberal arts elective in some majors, not as a math credit satisfying a degree requirement. Same line of reasoning for College Trigonometry. I really can't see an eleventh grade high school course being called a college course, especially when college math credit counting toward a degree is not awarded. I do understand that the second College Algebra course (the one equivalent to pre-calc) and College Trig do count toward an Associate's in Applied Science degree for those not going into a math/science major. Neither count toward the A.S. in Engineering Science here.

 

Some states, I understand, have problems in that their high school math classes don't align well with their college placement exams. For ex.:

http://www.math.jhu.edu/~wsw/ED/Abell0904.pdf This presents a costly situation for the students.

Edited August 14, 2009 by lgm