Church..need some advice

[LEOW3301]

I was raised Catholic. My husband was raised as a Baptist. When we got married, I converted to the Baptist religion.

We have tried so many nondenominational churches, Baptist churches, and even went to a Catholic Church a few times with our kids. We cannot for the life of us decide what where we want to attend. The churches we’ve been to we don’t agree with the pastor, or the congregation rules, etc etc. My husband has given up on church. I have always gone as a child every Sunday and it really bothers me not going. So, I don’t know what to do. I don’t agree fully with Catholicism, but I like the traditional hymns sung and the order, etc.

I do agree with many Baptist beliefs, etc, but we can’t find a good Baptist Church around us. We find a lot are hypocritical and say one thing on Sunday, but live a different way the rest of the week. So, what should we do? Need advice! Thanks! Also, we live in a very small town, so we don’t have many church options.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited November 16, 2017 by LEOW3301

[Jean in Newcastle]

Go where you get the teaching you need.  Churches are for sinners - where they can grow by hearing the Word.  You are going to have some hypocrites in the bunch.  They need to be there. 

[JIN MOUSA]

Yeah, the problem with every church is that there are people in it - people who don't practice what they preach, who make a mess of things.

 

For me, I have 2 priorities when finding a church: 

1. I want solid, Bible-based teaching and professed beliefs.

2. I want to find people I can connect with. They don't have to be perfect (otherwise I wouldn't fit in), but they do have to be willing to be authentic. And I try to find people like that by trying to be authentic myself. 

 

And I get that saying these things may be easy, but actually doing them is harder. 

 

edited to add some advice:

I would start by identifying just 1 or 2 priorities, and realizing that the church that does those the best may not necessarily be a comfortable fit for you in other areas. Then I'd try really committing to the church that hit your priority(ies), seeing if you can overcome the other things by focusing on what is right about the church. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by JIN MOUSA

[ktgrok]

First, all churches are full of hypocrites to some degree. Hospital for sinners, not a country club for saints. That said, some are better than others, I agree. 

 

Second, does your husband REALLY want to go to church? You say he has given up. What if you find a church YOU like, and you go and then later if he wants to come he can. Or he can find one he likes. But don't do what I did for years, which was not go at all because we couldn't find one we agreed on, then finally found one we agreed on, sort of, as a compromise, but then he stopped going anyway! Finally I realized, if he didn't want to go anyway, it made no sense to compromise. So I went back to the Catholic Church and felt at peace immediately. 

 

I say, YOU go, where YOU are comfortable. Start with that. As a fellow Catholic I'd say go to the Catholic Mass, of course, but YMMV. But I'd go, and just get that spiritual need filled for a while, and then reconsider what works. But go. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good...that's Satan talking. He knows just what to whisper to play on your good instincts and yet keep you from doing the right thing. 

[Peaceful Isle]

Said gently... when you say there are hypocrites in the church that act differently during the week, I would think about how we all need to grow.

I’m sure you and your family are not perfect during the week either, so I would have grace and love towards those you go to church with. I find it hard to justify being judgmental to others when I too have tons to work on.

As long as the preaching is sound, I would try to go and learn.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Peacefulisle

[bolt.]

The practice in these times is to consider "agreeing with a church" and "worshipping with a church" -- as if they were stuck together with crazy glue. It's not as if something forbids you to worship together with fellow Christians unless you've got identical theological checklists.

 

If you are worried that a church Has left the the gospel itself, or it is discouraging people from trusting Jesus, rejecting Christian rock-bottom-basics, or engaging in spiritually-based control tactics -- that's one thing. There are bad churches, and you don't need to expose yourself to that kind of thing.

 

The other thing is that... ( a ) There is a ton of wiggle room to say, "I think it's unbiblical that you believe in (Calvinism, transubstantiation, subordination of women, etc) because I read the Bible, and I'm totally sure it says something else." -- while also saying, "It's clear that you are a fellow Christian, so we can disagree in love and freedom. Let's worship."

 

And also ( b ) Not all 'good Christians' are good at being Christian. You can be the bigger person and acknowledge that they have room for improvement, but they have not lost the faith. Where there is hope for them, hope with God for their benefit. Where improvement seems unlikely, grieve with God for them, and embrace God's grace over them... Also, limit their damage wherever possible.

 

With all of that, what I mean is this: it probably doesn't matter where you go. Just go. Church is about Jesus because Christianity is about Jesus. Everything else will sort itself out.

[LEOW3301]

Go where you get the teaching you need. Churches are for sinners - where they can grow by hearing the Word. You are going to have some hypocrites in the bunch. They need to be there.

Yes, I was referring to the pastor and their families that preach and then go against what they state. That’s my big issue.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

Yeah, the problem with every church is that there are people in it - people who don't practice what they preach, who make a mess of things.

 

For me, I have 2 priorities when finding a church:

1. I want solid, Bible-based teaching and professed beliefs.

2. I want to find people I can connect with. They don't have to be perfect (otherwise I wouldn't fit in), but they do have to be willing to be authentic. And I try to find people like that by trying to be authentic myself.

 

And I get that saying these things may be easy, but actually doing them is harder.

 

edited to add some advice:

I would start by identifying just 1 or 2 priorities, and realizing that the church that does those the best may not necessarily be a comfortable fit for you in other areas. Then I'd try really committing to the church that hit your priority(ies), seeing if you can overcome the other things by focusing on what is right about the church.

Great advice! Thank you!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ktgrok]

Yes, I was referring to the pastor and their families that preach and then go against what they state. That’s my big issue.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Oh, that's another issue. I'd run from that. 

 

I say go to Mass. See if you feel at home. 

[Twolittleboys]

I think it is perfectly okay to attend a church even though you don't agree with all aspects. However, I would go to the one that aligns most closely with your beliefs (and in my experience Baptist and Roman Catholic are quite different). If you don't have a clear preference I would decide based on how much you like the service, how you like the people etc.

 

Ideally, you should find a church you can really love but if there isn't much choice I would visit the ones that are in reasonable distance and pick the one you like best.

[LEOW3301]

First, all churches are full of hypocrites to some degree. Hospital for sinners, not a country club for saints. That said, some are better than others, I agree.

 

Second, does your husband REALLY want to go to church? You say he has given up. What if you find a church YOU like, and you go and then later if he wants to come he can. Or he can find one he likes. But don't do what I did for years, which was not go at all because we couldn't find one we agreed on, then finally found one we agreed on, sort of, as a compromise, but then he stopped going anyway! Finally I realized, if he didn't want to go anyway, it made no sense to compromise. So I went back to the Catholic Church and felt at peace immediately.

 

I say, YOU go, where YOU are comfortable. Start with that. As a fellow Catholic I'd say go to the Catholic Mass, of course, but YMMV. But I'd go, and just get that spiritual need filled for a while, and then reconsider what works. But go. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good...that's Satan talking. He knows just what to whisper to play on your good instincts and yet keep you from doing the right thing.

Thank you! That’s good advice. I liked the Catholic Church, but feel I don’t really belong, due to leaving and not really believing in confession, etc.

I would go again, but just need some things cleared up in regards to beliefs and basically being brainwashed against the Catholic Church from the Baptist Church etc.

I’m so spiritually confused! :(

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

Said gently... when you say their are hypocrites in the church that act differently during the week, I would think about how we all need to grow.

I’m sure you and your family are not perfect during the week either, so I would have grace and love towards those you go to church with. I find it hard to justify being judgmental to others when I too have tons to work on.

As long as the preaching is sound, I would try to go and learn.

I agree. I’m definitely far from being perfect. I need to work on many things. However, I have a problem when it seems all of the pastors are hypocritical. I mean, I am learning from them, or supposed to. I know nobody is perfect and I know that the perfect church doesn’t exist. I just need to be spiritually filled, which I don’t get when I see things said and done differently later on.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SKL]

I could never find a church or other house of worship where I would agree with all the teachings.  I suspect most feel similarly.  I also doubt there is any without hypocrites and other difficult people. The challenge is to find the one where we feel most comfortable and are willing to agree to disagree.

 

Have you tried a Lutheran church?  That may be a mix that would work for you.  The substantive teachings aren't that much different from those of the Baptist church, and yet they have the structure of the service that you seem to like in the Catholic church.  Despite the structure, Lutherans encourage individuals to study the Bible and have their own relationship with God.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, I was referring to the pastor and their families that preach and then go against what they state. That’s my big issue.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

As a pastor's wife, can I say that it really depends on what you mean?  My husband still has a sin nature and so do I and so do my kids.  I also grew up as a missionary kid and I can tell you that people holding us kids to a standard of perfection sure did a number on us.  My kids have their own relationship with God and can choose whether to even believe or not on their own so if people judged our church on that basis we would be in big trouble.

 

So on one level I do agree - you want someone who practices what they preach.  But at the same time we aren't perfect and even pastors sin.   And so do pastor's wives and children.  

[LEOW3301]

The practice in these times is to consider "agreeing with a church" and "worshipping with a church" -- as if they were stuck together with crazy glue. It's not as if something forbids you to worship together with fellow Christians unless you've got identical theological checklists.

 

If you are worried that a church Has left the the gospel itself, or it is discouraging people from trusting Jesus, rejecting Christian rock-bottom-basics, or engaging in spiritually-based control tactics -- that's one thing. There are bad churches, and you don't need to expose yourself to that kind of thing.

 

The other thing is that... ( a ) There is a ton of wiggle room to say, "I think it's unbiblical that you believe in (Calvinism, transubstantiation, subordination of women, etc) because I read the Bible, and I'm totally sure it says something else." -- while also saying, "It's clear that you are a fellow Christian, so we can disagree in love and freedom. Let's worship."

 

And also ( b ) Not all 'good Christians' are good at being Christian. You can be the bigger person and acknowledge that they have room for improvement, but they have not lost the faith. Where there is hope for them, hope with God for their benefit. Where improvement seems unlikely, grieve with God for them, and embrace God's grace over them... Also, limit their damage wherever possible.

 

With all of that, what I mean is this: it probably doesn't matter where you go. Just go. Church is about Jesus because Christianity is about Jesus. Everything else will sort itself out.

 

Very true. I am beginning to believe just going is the best option, because at least I can praise God then, regardless of what else is going on.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

Oh, that's another issue. I'd run from that.

 

I say go to Mass. See if you feel at home.

I think I may. I just hope I don’t get frowned upon for falling away from it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

I think it is perfectly okay to attend a church even though you don't agree with all aspects. However, I would go to the one that aligns most closely with your beliefs (and in my experience Baptist and Roman Catholic are quite different). If you don't have a clear preference I would decide based on how much you like the service, how you like the people etc.

 

Ideally, you should find a church you can really love but if there isn't much choice I would visit the ones that are in reasonable distance and pick the one you like best.

 

Thank you! That’s very good advice!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

I could never find a church or other house of worship where I would agree with all the teachings. I suspect most feel similarly. I also doubt there is any without hypocrites and other difficult people. The challenge is to find the one where we feel most comfortable and are willing to agree to disagree.

 

Have you tried a Lutheran church? That may be a mix that would work for you. The substantive teachings aren't that much different from those of the Baptist church, and yet they have the structure of the service that you seem to like in the Catholic church. Despite the structure, Lutherans encourage individuals to study the Bible and have their own relationship with God.

Hmmm I’ve never tried a Lutheran Church before. I may have to look into that. Thank you!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

As a pastor's wife, can I say that it really depends on what you mean? My husband still has a sin nature and so do I and so do my kids. I also grew up as a missionary kid and I can tell you that people holding us kids to a standard of perfection sure did a number on us. My kids have their own relationship with God and can choose whether to even believe or not on their own so if people judged our church on that basis we would be in big trouble.

 

So on one level I do agree - you want someone who practices what they preach. But at the same time we aren't perfect and even pastors sin. And so do pastor's wives and children.

I agree with you. I’m referring to certain issues I’ve seen and experienced. I don’t hold them to a higher standard, it’s just that I believe that if they all say something and try to preach things in church, I’d expect them to hold to what they preach and teach. I’m referring to adult children of the pastor. Living two different lives is not what I really want to be surrounded by and learn from.

For example: drinking is preached against by the pastor’s children, yet they do it and sometimes even brag to certain people about it. Issues such as those bother me. Nobody is perfect and I know that. I just think if specific topics are taught, the people teaching them should follow, too. Again, small town, not many churches, so I’m not saying they are all like this. Just my experience.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ktgrok]

Thank you! That’s good advice. I liked the Catholic Church, but feel I don’t really belong, due to leaving and not really believing in confession, etc.

I would go again, but just need some things cleared up in regards to beliefs and basically being brainwashed against the Catholic Church from the Baptist Church etc.

I’m so spiritually confused! :(

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

As someone that joined later in life, then left to please my husband, then went back, I would be more than happy to discuss any of this with you. I was a religion major in college, and even took a graduate level course on Christianity, and read anything I can get my hands on. Plus what I learned in RCIA, etc. I'd be happy to answer any questions about the Catholic Church beliefs. Or there are some books by people that left Evangelical churches for Catholicism. 

SaveSave

[Ellie]

Thank you! That’s good advice. I liked the Catholic Church, but feel I don’t really belong, due to leaving and not really believing in confession, etc.

I would go again, but just need some things cleared up in regards to beliefs and basically being brainwashed against the Catholic Church from the Baptist Church etc.

I’m so spiritually confused! :(

 

 

I think it would be a good idea for you to talk to someone at the parish you would be attending. :-)

 

[ktgrok]

I think I may. I just hope I don’t get frowned upon for falling away from it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

oh my! NO!

 

In fact, the Catholic Church has made it a priority to welcome back those who have left, for any reason. As my priest puts it, there is nothing so big it can't be worked out...just come back. He makes that plea fairly often, and it's part of a wider outreach. LOTS of Catholics leave for a while and then come back. And they are, generally anyway, welcomed back the way the lost child is welcomes in the story of the prodigal son. Seriously. 

 

The ONLY thing that I was asked, and only once by someone, was "what brought you back?" Only because they wanted to make sure to keep doing whatever it was, if they could, lol. I told them Pope Francis :)

[LEOW3301]

As someone that joined later in life, then left to please my husband, then went back, I would be more than happy to discuss any of this with you. I was a religion major in college, and even took a graduate level course on Christianity, and read anything I can get my hands on. Plus what I learned in RCIA, etc. I'd be happy to answer any questions about the Catholic Church beliefs. Or there are some books by people that left Evangelical churches for Catholicism.

Save

Save

I tried to message you, but it’s saying disabled and I can’t figure it out. So this is what I was going to send you.

 

Hi!

I’m taking you up on the questions! Lol

I basically left to please my husband, too.

Then going to the Baptist Church, well that confused me more. They basically said I would’ve gone to hell, etc etc. that we worshipped Mary, calling the priest Father was against the Bible, Catholics aren’t saved, purgatory not being mentioned in the Bible, and also confession wasn’t biblical, because it says go through no man but our Father in the Bible. All of that I was brainwashed into believing their way of thinking and now am totally confused!! I miss going to mass, but everything they told me above is in my head now.

Thanks for your advice, btw!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EmseB]

I would not go to a church where I knew the pastor was blatantly hypocritical, i.e. not trying to follow Christ and it was obvious.

 

BUT I also consider that the purpose of church is to worship God corporately with other believers as (I believe) we are instructed to do in the Bible: study his word, offer praise, pray. So if I was between a rock and a hard place and could not find a church that I aligned with perfectly, I would settle for the imperfect as long as the worship itself was acceptable.

 

As an example, I have family members that attend a church that mixes in a lot of 'Merica and patriotism and flag worship that I do not find appropriate in a Christian worship service of the triune God.  So I don't go to church with them because the worship itself violates my conscience. But I would go to a church that I didn't agree with on things like infant baptism, some points of calvinism, etc, if I could worship in good conscience.

[DawnM]

Do you have a good Anglican or Episcopal Church nearby?  That might be a happy medium between Evangelical and Catholic.

[LEOW3301]

I would not go to a church where I knew the pastor was blatantly hypocritical, i.e. not trying to follow Christ and it was obvious.

 

BUT I also consider that the purpose of church is to worship God corporately with other believers as (I believe) we are instructed to do in the Bible: study his word, offer praise, pray. So if I was between a rock and a hard place and could not find a church that I aligned with perfectly, I would settle for the imperfect as long as the worship itself was acceptable.

 

As an example, I have family members that attend a church that mixes in a lot of 'Merica and patriotism and flag worship that I do not find appropriate in a Christian worship service of the triune God. So I don't go to church with them because the worship itself violates my conscience. But I would go to a church that I didn't agree with on things like infant baptism, some points of calvinism, etc, if I could worship in good conscience.

That’s a great way to think about it. I’m just stuck on thinking it has to all align and I need to get it in my head that I won’t agree 100% with everything.

Thanks!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

Do you have a good Anglican or Episcopal Church nearby? That might be a happy medium between Evangelical and Catholic.

No, the nearest one would be an hr away. I will look into their beliefs though, just so I can see if it’s my happy medium! Thank you!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ali in OR]

If you're still interested in compromising, both the Episcopal/Anglican church and the Lutheran church fall somewhere between Catholicism and Baptist churches. From my experience, I would say Episcopal/Anglican is closer to Catholicism and Lutheran is closer to Baptist, but really Episcopal and Lutheran are probably closer to each other than to the other two. Lutheran is a little more bible-based (in my experience), at least in terms of really studying the word, believing it is inerrant, etc.

[SKL]

I go to doctors who are overweight because they don't follow all the advice they give.

 

I am 100% sure my pastors and their children fail to follow their own advice at times - possibly more often than their average student.  I hesitate to say it automatically makes them hypocrites, though they may be hypocrites.  I tell my kids to do things I don't always do.  It's my responsibility to people who look to me for guidance.  Occasionally I catch myself doing things I'd punish my kids for doing.  I'm not proud of it.  But I'm not going to stop telling my kids what I feel is good for them.

 

Where I attend, the pastors frequently admit that they fail as often as many humans.  If they were acting all high and mighty, that would feel different.  If the errors were such that people could no longer respect them, obviously that would be a deal killer.  But I think that in that case, they would be replaced by the congregation within a fairly short time period.

[LEOW3301]

If you're still interested in compromising, both the Episcopal/Anglican church and the Lutheran church fall somewhere between Catholicism and Baptist churches. From my experience, I would say Episcopal/Anglican is closer to Catholicism and Lutheran is closer to Baptist, but really Episcopal and Lutheran are probably closer to each other than to the other two. Lutheran is a little more bible-based (in my experience), at least in terms of really studying the word, believing it is inerrant, etc.

Great! Thank you for the information! I’ll have to see where the closest ones are.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

I go to doctors who are overweight because they don't follow all the advice they give.

 

I am 100% sure my pastors and their children fail to follow their own advice at times - possibly more often than their average student. I hesitate to say it automatically makes them hypocrites, though they may be hypocrites. I tell my kids to do things I don't always do. It's my responsibility to people who look to me for guidance. Occasionally I catch myself doing things I'd punish my kids for doing. I'm not proud of it. But I'm not going to stop telling my kids what I feel is good for them.

 

Where I attend, the pastors frequently admit that they fail as often as many humans. If they were acting all high and mighty, that would feel different. If the errors were such that people could no longer respect them, obviously that would be a deal killer. But I think that in that case, they would be replaced by the congregation within a fairly short time period.

Thank you for helping me understand it in a different way!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TABmom]

I agree with you. I’m referring to certain issues I’ve seen and experienced. I don’t hold them to a higher standard, it’s just that I believe that if they all say something and try to preach things in church, I’d expect them to hold to what they preach and teach. I’m referring to adult children of the pastor. Living two different lives is not what I really want to be surrounded by and learn from.

For example: drinking is preached against by the pastor’s children, yet they do it and sometimes even brag to certain people about it. Issues such as those bother me. Nobody is perfect and I know that. I just think if specific topics are taught, the people teaching them should follow, too. Again, small town, not many churches, so I’m not saying they are all like this. Just my experience.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm a preacher's kid. I don't know why you would judge a preacher based on the actions of his (or her) adult children?!? And what do you mean the preacher's kids preach against it? When are they preaching? The adult children have the right to their own life and the pastor deserves to not bear the consequences of their choices. I'm sorry, but as a PK, this is a sensitive subject. And my sibs and I don't even do things that would reflect poorly on my dad. But we didn't choose to live in there public eye this way and my dad isn't responsible for the choices I make now.

[milovany]

What a difficult place to be in!  I'm sorry you're facing so much turmoil in your spirituality.  As noted by someone else above, there's quite a big difference between Catholicism and the Baptist sect, so that would be very hard to navigate through. Please be gentle with yourself, your husband and your journey.  The church will always be there and isn't in a hurry.  

 

You probably know this, but I didn't after being a Christian for 20+ years, but way back in the day, like waaaay back in the day (in the first 800-1000 years of Christianity), the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were one church. "I believe in one, holy, catholic (small c meaning universal) and apostolic church" included the two of them united as one.  Then there some things happened and there was a schism -- the Roman Catholic Church became the church in the west and the Orthodox church remained the church in the east.  We live in a very western culture with very western-based history, but believe it or not, the church of the east is still an option.  It's liturgical with the order you described, it's ancient like Catholicism, it's just coming at the faith from a bit of a different perspective.  This was our decision about eight years ago when we were struggling yet again with where we were attending church.  Do you have any Orthodox churches near you?  That might also be worth a consideration.  

 

No hurries, no worry.  God is there and will be there and the church is there and will be there.  

Edited November 16, 2017 by milovany

[LEOW3301]

I'm a preacher's kid. I don't know why you would judge a preacher based on the actions of his (or her) adult children?!? And what do you mean the preacher's kids preach against it? When are they preaching? The adult children have the right to their own life and the pastor deserves to not bear the consequences of their choices. I'm sorry, but as a PK, this is a sensitive subject. And my sibs and I don't even do things that would reflect poorly on my dad. But we didn't choose to live in there public eye this way and my dad isn't responsible for the choices I make now.

I understand what you’re saying and I agree with you. I’m talking about when the adult children teach bible studies etc. they are technically preaching to the people attending that group. I am not judging the pastor by what his children do. I stated that I am judging based on what his children teach during bible studies, as they are the leader, and then contradicting it. I am not putting anyone else in this category. This is a situation that I was I , twice, actually. This isn’t about other pastors’ kids. It’s about this certain situation and church that I was in and yes, the children were preaching during group bible studies. Not the same thing you’re referring to. I am not judging the pastor based on his kids. I am sorry that you took it that way, but you misunderstood me.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

What a difficult place to be in! I'm sorry you're facing so much turmoil in your spirituality. As noted by someone else above, there's quite a big difference between Catholicism and the Baptist sect, so that would be very hard to navigate through. Please be gentle with yourself, your husband and your journey. The church will always be there and isn't in a hurry.

 

You probably know this, but I didn't after being a Christian for 20+ years, but way back in the day, like waaaay back in the day (in the first 800-1000 years of Christianity), the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church were one church. "I believe in one, holy, catholic (small c meaning universal) and apostolic church" included the two of them united as one. Then there some things happened and there was a schism -- the Roman Catholic Church became the church in the west and the Orthodox church remained the church in the east. We live in a very western culture with very western-based history, but believe it or not, the church of the east is still an option. It's liturgical with the order you described, it's ancient like Catholicism, it's just coming at the faith from a bit of a different perspective. This was our decision about eight years ago when we were struggling yet again with where we were attending church. Do you have any Orthodox churches near you? That might also be worth a consideration.

 

No hurries, no worry. God is there and will be there and the church is there and will be there.

Thank you for your comment! It was very helpful and inspirational to me!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MercyA]

OP, there are things I greatly admire about the Catholic church. There are also things on which I disagree with them, but would be willing to overlook. What I cannot square with my conscience and with Scripture is praying prayers like this:

 

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus, O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

 

The Catholic Church has a very different view of Mary than almost any other church. I believe, as 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

 

There is no perfect church. Others have given you good advice here. When you visit a church, I would ask yourself: 1. Do they faithfully teach the Word of God? and 2. Do they love each other and others?

 

Praying that you'll find a good church home. 

[LEOW3301]

OP, there are things I greatly admire about the Catholic church. There are also things on which I disagree with them, but would be willing to overlook. What I cannot square with my conscience and with Scripture is praying prayers like this:

 

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus, O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

 

The Catholic Church has a very different view of Mary than almost any other church. I believe, as 1 Timothy 2:5 says, "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

 

There is no perfect church. Others have given you good advice here. When you visit a church, I would ask yourself: 1. Do they faithfully teach the Word of God? and 2. Do they love each other and others?

 

Praying that you'll find a good church home.

Thank you! I agree with you and that’s where I’m struggling! We have an issue with the Mary thing and praising her it seems. Thanks!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Southern Ivy]

I agree with you. I’m referring to certain issues I’ve seen and experienced. I don’t hold them to a higher standard, it’s just that I believe that if they all say something and try to preach things in church, I’d expect them to hold to what they preach and teach. I’m referring to adult children of the pastor. Living two different lives is not what I really want to be surrounded by and learn from.

For example: drinking is preached against by the pastor’s children, yet they do it and sometimes even brag to certain people about it. Issues such as those bother me. Nobody is perfect and I know that. I just think if specific topics are taught, the people teaching them should follow, too. Again, small town, not many churches, so I’m not saying they are all like this. Just my experience.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Having been in the "child of leadership" position, I would just like to urge you to not hold the pastor responsible for the actions of his adult children. Everyone make their own choices. Granted, you would hope they would be more in line with what they were taught growing up, but it doesn't mean that the pastor is a hypocrite if his own children stray from the teaching. It just means he has children who made a different decision, whether he agrees with it or not. 

I mean, I was the drinking, non-virgin, left-the-church daughter of a well respected deacon in a Baptist church. My father is one of the most solid-in-his-faith leaders of the church and then there's me with my actions. ;)

It would gut me if someone looked at him and said he was a hypocrite due to my actions that I made as an adult with free will.  

 

Now, if the adult children are in leadership and doing those things, but teaching against them, then that's a totally different story...

 

 

 

Onto the small town situation - DH and I are currently looking for a church that fits what we need for my daughter. We live in a small town and have visited the majority of the churches we would be willing to attend. (There are some major theological differences with the other churches.) We currently go to a church that we absolutely love, but it's an hour away. Totally worth it for us. However, the kids program is very stressful for my 5 year old. So, we're trying some accommodations, but we may end up having to leave because my daughter's love of church is more important than what I want right now. 

Anyway...we're looking into all sorts of different churches. We may end up at a church closer to us, but we may end up staying an hour away. It's not the easiest but worth it for us to be at a church we love. So, it might be worth extending your search radius a bit. 

[MercyA]

Thank you! I agree with you and that’s where I’m struggling! We have an issue with the Mary thing and praising her it seems. Thanks!

 

Some things are deal breakers for me, and that is one of them.  :(

[Kim in Appalachia]

Since you grew up Catholic, but have been in Baptist and are unsure you want to go back to RC, I'm going to recommend the Episcopal church.  My family and I attended on for 2 years before we moved and we liked it.  

[bolt.]

I agree with you. I’m referring to certain issues I’ve seen and experienced. I don’t hold them to a higher standard, it’s just that I believe that if they all say something and try to preach things in church, I’d expect them to hold to what they preach and teach. I’m referring to adult children of the pastor. Living two different lives is not what I really want to be surrounded by and learn from.

For example: drinking is preached against by the pastor’s children, yet they do it and sometimes even brag to certain people about it. Issues such as those bother me. Nobody is perfect and I know that. I just think if specific topics are taught, the people teaching them should follow, too. Again, small town, not many churches, so I’m not saying they are all like this. Just my experience.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, if some bible studies are being led by 'adult children of the pastor' -- the family connection seems really relevant to you. As adults, if they are leaders and teachers in a congregation they should be doing that because they are qualified and effective. They don't become teachers because of who raised them.

 

So, I'm wondering: would it be such a serious issue if 'some people who lead bible study sometimes' have the habit of affirming a 'party line' position on alcohol, -- even if they are experimenting with what they really believe about alcohol when they think they might be unobserved? I think that's a pretty normal part of the process of changing your mind or questioning things.

 

As a leader, you don't always put your uncertainty or controversial opinions on display in formal settings. Sometimes you just say, "I've been thinking about that, but right now I think the standard answer is wisest." On the other hand, you also don't go ahead and live a completely double life. That's not a solid basis for being a leader.

 

People might be able to say these things about me. When I teach in my role as an adjunct prof at my local bible college, I affirm the statement of faith, and I don't speak of my own opinions if they differ and/or question elements of that statement -- especially if I'm not yet sure. In other, less formal settings, you might hear me muse positively on the other side of various hot topics.

 

I suppose there may be hypocrisy there, and maybe I should examine myself better... but I don't think it makes me a failure as a Christian.

[bolt.]

Thank you! I agree with you and that’s where I’m struggling! We have an issue with the Mary thing and praising her it seems. Thanks!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It might help you to muse on the difference between when one "praises" a living person, vs "worshipping" them. Of course one can give a glowing speech in praise of a friend, family member or mentor -- without being accused of acts of worship.

 

Similarly, we are able to freely ask living people to join their prayers with our own in intercessory prayer.

 

The catholic view of Mary is pretty special -- but it is not praise in the sense of 'praise and worship', and it is not intercession in the sense that she is a nessisary mediator. You don't have to be uncomfortable with it if you don't want to be.

Edited November 16, 2017 by bolt.

[ktgrok]

Just wanted to say that I am stuck at Walmart, but will reply later to your specific questions. I promise!

[milovany]

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus, O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

 

 

Well, that's interesting.  I don't see anything in that particular prayer of concern. What part do you disagree with?  You quoted the Bible about not having a mediator but she's interceding, not mediating.  Don't you pray for other people, MercyA? Or ask them to pray for you?  To me, read carefully, this prayer is asking Mary (who is not dead, but "alive with Christ") to intercede for us, much like we'd ask a pastor or friend or grandmother to pray for us. We're hurting, please pray for us.  And then the prayer ends with a plea that in all the suffering, we ultimately see Jesus (the fruit of her womb).  

 

Now that's not to say I agree with all Catholic theology and practices regarding Mary, but now being in a liturgical church that reverences (not worships) Mary for a good several years now, I get it.  We are told in Scripture that "all generations will call [her] blessed."  Does our generation, does our church today, do we in our home -- regularly -- call her blessed?  It should, we should.  I think a lot was thrown out with the bathwater at the reformation, to the detriment of Christians.  But then again, all that was a non-issue in the Christian east.  

Edited November 16, 2017 by milovany

[Zinnia]

I am comfortable in a Baptist church, though specifically not Independent Fundamental Baptists.  But Southern Baptist, cooperative Baptist, American Baptists, etc. then yes, I am comfortable

 

I am not comfortable enough with their theology to join the church in a covenant style membership, so we don't.  But we do attend a couple regularly.  

 

We are in a flux as well.  I grew up non-denominational, leaning charismatic.  My dh grew up First baptist, high church style.  We settled on a Vineyard church, then it transitioned to Anglicanism.  There were many things we loved (the worship, the weekly communion, the liturgy), but as the theology shifted, we realized that we were solidly evangelical.  That was 2 years ago.  We've bounced between a mega-church that is sort of Church of God lite, charismatic but not too much, and a mega-church that is sort of Southern Baptist but they refuse to say that they are.  Neither are perfect.  But they are both good enough, and we enjoy them.  So we keep bouncing.  

[MercyA]

Well, that's interesting.  I don't see anything in that particular prayer of concern. What part do you disagree with?  You quoted the Bible about not having a mediator but she's interceding, not mediating.  Don't you pray for other people, MercyA? Or ask them to pray for you?  To me, read carefully, this prayer is asking Mary (who is not dead, but "alive with Christ") to intercede for us, much like we'd ask a pastor or friend or grandmother to pray for us. We're hurting, please pray for us.  And then the prayer ends with a plea that in all the suffering, we ultimately see Jesus (the fruit of her womb).  

 

Now that's not to say I agree with all Catholic theology and practices regarding Mary, but now being in a liturgical church that reverences (not worships) Mary for a good several years now, I get it.  We are told in Scripture that "all generations will call [her] blessed."  Does our generation, does our church today, do we in our home -- regularly -- call her blessed?  It should, we should.  I think a lot was thrown out with the bathwater at the reformation, to the detriment of Christians.  But then again, all that was a non-issue in the Christian east.  

 

It's calling Mary "our life." Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). 

 

It's calling Mary "our hope." Jesus is "our hope" (1 Timothy 1:1).

 

It's calling Mary "our advocate." We have "an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1).

 

This is an incredibly serious thing, in my view.

 

I have many devout Catholic (and some Orthodox) friends. I've heard every rationalization possible for prayers like this and remain unconvinced that they are anything other than dangerous.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I realize that you probably only gave one example, but there is a big difference between a principle of Scripture against drunkenness (which is different than a total prohibition against all alcohol) and the application of that to how much alcohol someone might imbibe.  Some don't imbibe at all because they don't want to even have the opportunity to get drunk and some have family history that influences the decision.  And sometimes this gets stretched to legalism in my opinion.  I actually see it as a mark in favor of the Baptist pastor's adult children that they do imbibe (hopefully in moderation) because this means that they aren't the stereotypical legalistic Baptist believers.  I say this as someone who was raised in the Baptist church, though I have not gone to a Baptist church as an adult.

[LEOW3301]

Having been in the "child of leadership" position, I would just like to urge you to not hold the pastor responsible for the actions of his adult children. Everyone make their own choices. Granted, you would hope they would be more in line with what they were taught growing up, but it doesn't mean that the pastor is a hypocrite if his own children stray from the teaching. It just means he has children who made a different decision, whether he agrees with it or not.

I mean, I was the drinking, non-virgin, left-the-church daughter of a well respected deacon in a Baptist church. My father is one of the most solid-in-his-faith leaders of the church and then there's me with my actions. ;)

It would gut me if someone looked at him and said he was a hypocrite due to my actions that I made as an adult with free will.

 

Now, if the adult children are in leadership and doing those things, but teaching against them, then that's a totally different story...

 

 

 

Onto the small town situation - DH and I are currently looking for a church that fits what we need for my daughter. We live in a small town and have visited the majority of the churches we would be willing to attend. (There are some major theological differences with the other churches.) We currently go to a church that we absolutely love, but it's an hour away. Totally worth it for us. However, the kids program is very stressful for my 5 year old. So, we're trying some accommodations, but we may end up having to leave because my daughter's love of church is more important than what I want right now.

Anyway...we're looking into all sorts of different churches. We may end up at a church closer to us, but we may end up staying an hour away. It's not the easiest but worth it for us to be at a church we love. So, it might be worth extending your search radius a bit.

I just want to reiterate that I said I DID NOT hold the pastor accountable for what his children did. It was the adult children that were in a leadership position teaching biblical studies outside of the actual preaching. So it was contradictory, because they taught biblical issues that they would then go against. I have NOTHING wrong with pastors and how they raise their children. I know that everyone has their own life and beliefs and children don’t always follow their parents. What I stated was that they were in a leadership position and that’s what I had a problem with. However, their father also did many of the things that they themselves did, so it really wasn’t that good of a church for my family. I just want to reiterate that. I don’t judge pastors based on their children.

 

Thank you for your advice about driving a distance for a good church. We do want our children to learn and grow up in a church, so it may be worth the drive. Thank you for your response!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

Since you grew up Catholic, but have been in Baptist and are unsure you want to go back to RC, I'm going to recommend the Episcopal church. My family and I attended on for 2 years before we moved and we liked it.

Thank you! We are going to look into it!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LEOW3301]

So, if some bible studies are being led by 'adult children of the pastor' -- the family connection seems really relevant to you. As adults, if they are leaders and teachers in a congregation they should be doing that because they are qualified and effective. They don't become teachers because of who raised them.

 

So, I'm wondering: would it be such a serious issue if 'some people who lead bible study sometimes' have the habit of affirming a 'party line' position on alcohol, -- even if they are experimenting with what they really believe about alcohol when they think they might be unobserved? I think that's a pretty normal part of the process of changing your mind or questioning things.

 

As a leader, you don't always put your uncertainty or controversial opinions on display in formal settings. Sometimes you just say, "I've been thinking about that, but right now I think the standard answer is wisest." On the other hand, you also don't go ahead and live a completely double life. That's not a solid basis for being a leader.

 

People might be able to say these things about me. When I teach in my role as an adjunct prof at my local bible college, I affirm the statement of faith, and I don't speak of my own opinions if they differ and/or question elements of that statement -- especially if I'm not yet sure. In other, less formal settings, you might hear me muse positively on the other side of various hot topics.

 

I suppose there may be hypocrisy there, and maybe I should examine myself better... but I don't think it makes me a failure as a Christian.

I don’t believe it makes you a failure as a Christian. I just am stating it doesn’t help me further myself in my biblical walk with Christ. Just my personal belief. They aren’t failures either, I just need someone I can watch and learn from their walk in life.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk