Appropriate at age 8?

[kiwik]

Just looking for feedback.

 

ds8 has just started year 5 (4th grade) at our local school in NZ.  The government has a thing at the moment about what they call 'the modern leaning environment'.  It consists of blended classrooms, team teaching and learning through collaborative, self-directed learning.  I went to the open house and ds8's teacher said he doesn't tell them whether they have done well just directs them to the list of skills they need to develop on the wall.  He doesn't teach maths except in the context of projects and they are expected to design and manage their own homework.

 

To me this seems developmentally inappropriate for a child who has had 4 years at school learning to learn what the teacher wants with constant feedback.  My child is one of the youngest but none of them are older than 10.  Barring kids who have been unschooled very well is this really appropriate for 8/9/10 year olds in your eyes (they are all year 5/6 = grade 4/5).

 

Just wondering if it is just me and a few other parents who have doubts.

[HomeAgain]

I think it could work.  Too many kids today look for outside approval instead of learning to pay attention to detail and critique their own work. This is not an inappropriate goal for children.  If the school is trying to break the habit of 'show and tell' and create new habits, it totally could work.  But it would fail without feedback when a child is struggling, so the teacher has to be on point and know how each kid is doing and be a remarkable planner.

[Storygirl]

I think it depends on the child, but it sounds like it could be challenging for even advanced students. At that age, I loved school and could have been a self-directed learner, but I also really wanted and needed feedback about how I was doing (getting good grades was an incentive for me). My own children, however, are completely different learners, and they would not do well in that environment. They need direct instruction. Also, what child can design their own homework assignments? I have a hard time seeing that being successful unless they are given some very tight guidance.

 

So...no teacher instruction, no feedback about how they are doing, and they have to figure out their own assignments. I wouldn't like it. Is the whole school conducting classes this way, or just this teacher? Can you ask that he be switched to a different class?

[HomeAgain]

 Also, what child can design their own homework assignments? I have a hard time seeing that being successful unless they are given some very tight guidance.

 

What 8yo needs homework?

 

[Guest]

Nope, not appropriate for that age group, unless this is a very special group of kids.

[73349]

Is it possible for children to be considered failing? I would be concerned that a child might not do what is expected and then not be considered eligible for promotion to the next grade--and if that's not possible, that means a child could get through the whole year without really learning anything but move on anyway.

 

I'd want to know more about how they keep the kids moving in the right direction, especially those used to more directed learning. Are the classes very small? I could see it working in groups of six, not so much in groups of twenty-eight.

[bolt.]

That sounds very Montessori. In that setting, children who have always been educated that way (freedom, guidance, self-teaching materials, projects, skills) tend to thrive, whether they are 8, or younger or older.

 

However, a child accustomed to external motivation, direct instruction and various requirements will certainly flounder a lot -- until they get past those expectations and find their own curiosity and ambition. This is something akin to what some homeschoolers call "de-schooling". I hope your school system is expecting it!

 

My kids' experience at a public Montessori school that has a lot in common with your description yields these observations:

 

Children are full of curiosity and ambition. With good guidence it is usually possible to cover all the "subjects" within that ethos -- without resorting to requirements. Math(s) can be difficult to motivate and might be where requirements become appropriate. Homework is rare. Children are only allowed to join the school at K or grade 1: after that it is considered too hard to change their mindset away from the expectations of direct instruction.

[kiwik]

It is a public school. There are six year 5/6 classes of 30 kids and they are all run together this way. The meet with the teacher to talk about the project then find somewhere in one of the six classes to work. When called back to base they are expected to show evidence of work and rate themselves on use of time. If the teacher sees someone doesn't understand something they will run a 'workshop' with that kid and whoever else wants to attend.

 

I am not that worried. Ds8 is several years ahead in everything except writing. I do writing with him at home so that is covered. I am quite capable of filling in the gaps I see. The other parents who have more money will send their kids to tutors. Most kids with do well but it will impossible to say whether it was because of or despite the class system.

 

Eight year olds don't need homework but if they are expected to do some they need a little guidance. We do science, history, writing, maths and Latin at home (only about 15 mins a day except when kids come to do science experiments) so we will just use that.

 

I like the idea I would just like an hour or two more direct instruction at the beginning of the day to make sure the bases are covered. It is fine to say learn it from the internet but when they get to high school they will be exoected to do things a certain way.

[kiwik]

That sounds very Montessori. In that setting, children who have always been educated that way (freedom, guidance, self-teaching materials, projects, skills) tend to thrive, whether they are 8, or younger or older.

 

However, a child accustomed to external motivation, direct instruction and various requirements will certainly flounder a lot -- until they get past those expectations and find their own curiosity and ambition. This is something akin to what some homeschoolers call "de-schooling". I hope your school system is expecting it!

 

My kids' experience at a public Montessori school that has a lot in common with your description yields these observations:

 

Children are full of curiosity and ambition. With good guidence it is usually possible to cover all the "subjects" within that ethos -- without resorting to requirements. Math(s) can be difficult to motivate and might be where requirements become appropriate. Homework is rare. Children are only allowed to join the school at K or grade 1: after that it is considered too hard to change their mindset away from the expectations of direct instruction.

These kids have had 4 years direct instruction and have a 1:30 teacher ratio (no aides or even parent volunteers).

 

Eta. They do expect them to take a term or two to adapt (1/4 to 1/2 a year). My child can afford that but a lot of kids can't. It will be good for the tutoring centres.

Edited February 11, 2016 by kiwik

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is very similar to how the private school for gifted, where I taught, was run.  I would see how it goes. 

[kiwik]

This is very similar to how the private school for gifted, where I taught, was run. I would see how it goes.

I will not worry too much. I can cover skills. I sat in class for a while this morning. Their topic is 'will there be school in the future? If so what will it look like? If not what will that mean for kids?" Could be great but needs some knowledge of history and some reading of science/social/dystpian fiction to really go in depth

 

 

Any suitable books for 8 year old gifted kids?

[...................]

Montessori works. It is a proven methodology that is even superior to classroom style learning.

 

However this is not Montessori. This sounds like chaos. The children have not been trained to learn this way and they aren't using the proper methods and tools.

 

I would be after-schooling in math for the next month or two

And planning to switch school or homeschool unless miraculously your child excels with this method.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The no math thing would freak me out.  The rest sounds mostly ok. 

 

Not something I'm familiar with though.

 

 

[kiwik]

Montessori works. It is a proven methodology that is even superior to classroom style learning.

 

However this is not Montessori. This sounds like chaos. The children have not been trained to learn this way and they aren't using the proper methods and tools.

 

I would be after-schooling in math for the next month or two

And planning to switch school or homeschool unless miraculously your child excels with this method.

I am in the process of switching my younger to a more structured environment at a smaller school. Since ds8 is a sporty kid and has a friend in class for the first time in ages (who i think he will banned from working with soon) I will just after school for now. It just seems to be a fairly advanced skill set. His friend doesn't have his grammar stage skills in place for instance (dyslexia has finally been acknowledged enough to get proper help). If you don't have very solid basics and decent executive function it would be easy to not make much progress.

 

I would still prefer 2 hours maths/writing etc first.

 

Whitehawk. As far as I know it is not possible to fail until year 11 (10th grade).

Edited February 12, 2016 by kiwik

[Jean in Newcastle]

I will not worry too much. I can cover skills. I sat in class for a while this morning. Their topic is 'will there be school in the future? If so what will it look like? If not what will that mean for kids?" Could be great but needs some knowledge of history and some reading of science/social/dystpian fiction to really go in depth

 

 

Any suitable books for 8 year old gifted kids?

Coming back to say that the gifted school that used this approach was full of kids who were more visual-spatial in approach.  In other words, they were able to take an open-ended question like that and extrapolate the details from that.  So when I said that "I would see how it goes", I was not necessarily approving of what this school is doing.  I was literally saying that you would want to see how more typical learners are able to handle such an approach.  They could surprise you.  Or they could crash and burn.  I wouldn't want to wait too long, but I think seeing how things went for a month or two isn't too bad for kids that  young. 

[Tsuga]

Just looking for feedback.

 

ds8 has just started year 5 (4th grade) at our local school in NZ.  The government has a thing at the moment about what they call 'the modern leaning environment'.  It consists of blended classrooms, team teaching and learning through collaborative, self-directed learning.  I went to the open house and ds8's teacher said he doesn't tell them whether they have done well just directs them to the list of skills they need to develop on the wall.  He doesn't teach maths except in the context of projects and they are expected to design and manage their own homework.

 

To me this seems developmentally inappropriate for a child who has had 4 years at school learning to learn what the teacher wants with constant feedback.  My child is one of the youngest but none of them are older than 10.  Barring kids who have been unschooled very well is this really appropriate for 8/9/10 year olds in your eyes (they are all year 5/6 = grade 4/5).

 

Just wondering if it is just me and a few other parents who have doubts.

 

I was in a program like that, gifted education, at that age, in fourth grade.

 

It was not helpful to me. I am not fond of all-or-nothing, philosophy-over-the-individual programs.

 

So, I'd have serious doubts myself.

 

My daughter is nine and in 3rd grade (October birthday in a strict September-start state) and her school is nothing like that. It's a combination of collaboration, self-direction, structured self-management tasks, drills, exercises, homework, and so on. 

 

I feel for your son. I also have to ask--was he skipped a year? That can make it really hard in the 4th grade, 7th grade, and 9th/10th when they introduce ways of thinking that are more related to developmental milestones than training.

[kiwik]

I was in a program like that, gifted education, at that age, in fourth grade.

 

It was not helpful to me. I am not fond of all-or-nothing, philosophy-over-the-individual programs.

 

So, I'd have serious doubts myself.

 

My daughter is nine and in 3rd grade (October birthday in a strict September-start state) and her school is nothing like that. It's a combination of collaboration, self-direction, structured self-management tasks, drills, exercises, homework, and so on. 

 

I feel for your son. I also have to ask--was he skipped a year? That can make it really hard in the 4th grade, 7th grade, and 9th/10th when they introduce ways of thinking that are more related to developmental milestones than training.

 

No he wasn't skipped.  We have a Feb to Dec year.  Our school uses a March 31 cut off and ds8 has a March 30 birthday.  In New Zealand you start when you turn 5 even if you are after the cut off but you do the extra time in the first year (sort of like doing 1.75 years in K)  my son started on his birthday and so did 0.75 years in his year 1 (K) year then went into year 2.  He is not the youngest as there are a few kids who started at schools with later cut offs but he is in the youngest 3 or so in his year out of about 80 kids.

[eternalsummer]

I feel like this would be a great approach for some kids with say a 3:1 student to teacher ratio.  A 30:1 student to teacher ratio?  How will the teacher ever know who is stuggling with what, or have time to meet the kids individually where they are?  Is this something all NZ schools are transitioning to or just your local one, as an experiment?  It seems very...experimental.

 

I have one kid who would be fine in that environment and one who would crash and burn.  Both are bright, but i think even if you gave DS7 3 *years* to figure it out, he'd still be wandering around aimlessly looking for the least difficult thing to do and antagonizing other kids.

 

To just be thrown into it wholesale is strange too.  Why don't they do a transitional year where first they have this for an hour a day with some more guided options, then a couple hours a day with broader categories/stations, then a half day or every other day or something with a lot of structure from above an accountability, *then*, after like a year of that, move into whole-day project based learning (which I am assuming this basically is?)

[SKL]

I don't think that sounds ideal for either of my young 9yos (one an advanced kid and one who works hard to keep up).  Though it's hard to judge without more information.

 

It sounds like the kids will think hard work is optional.  One of my kids would read independently the whole time, and the other would spend the time chatting people up.  I don't know how they would be kept on task.  But maybe there is some structure built in that is not obvious to the untrained eye.

[kiwik]

I feel like this would be a great approach for some kids with say a 3:1 student to teacher ratio. A 30:1 student to teacher ratio? How will the teacher -ever know who is stuggling with what, or have time to meet the kids individually where they are? Is this something all NZ schools are transitioning to or just your local one, as an experiment? It seems very...experimental.

 

I have one kid who would be fine in that environment and one who would crash and burn. Both are bright, but i think even if you gave DS7 3 *years* to figure it out, he'd still be wandering around aimlessly looking for the least difficult thing to do and antagonizing other kids.

 

To just be thrown into it wholesale is strange too. Why don't they do a transitional year where first they have this for an hour a day with some more guided options, then a couple hours a day with broader categories/stations, then a half day or every other day or something with a lot of structure from above an accountability, *then*, after like a year of that, move into whole-day project based learning (which I am assuming this basically is?)

It seems to whole day sort of. He gave the day's work as - meeting, project work, morning tea, free reading (grab a novel), exercise, lunch, assembly. Apparently told the kids there is no such thing as "maths" seperate from other things. We discussed this and that matgematical theory is beautiful by itself. I know what he means but they still have quite a lot of maths to get through.

 

It is a New Zealand wide thing in public schools although I think our school is more enthusiastic. The intermediate is just changing and dumping their extension programme in the process. What minimal gifted prigramming their is is being dropped because this system meets the needs of everyone.

 

There are 280 minutes of class time in a NZ school day. At least 60 of them are housekeeping, sports etc (more like 90 most days). So 190 to 220 minutes between 30 students is about 7 minutes each a day to check if they need more help.

 

It will work well for the chunk of parent pleasing, bright well off kids. The parents will provide the feedback, pushing bit that tge teacher has given up and a tutor will provide the academics.

 

I have found one school that doesn't have it that my childen are eligibke to attend. I am moving my younger son for other reasons. Ds8 doesn't want to but the school is actually plan B for his dyslexic friend's parents so the may both end up there. It is a combined primary/intermediate so changing late in primary would be OK.

[KrissiK]

Nope, not appropriate for that age group, unless this is a very special group of kids.

I would agree with this. Somehow this sounds familiar. Didn't the US try something like this back in the 70's? Sounds like a version of something I learned about in my teacher-education classes back in the day when I was getting my credential.

[kiwik]

I would agree with this. Somehow this sounds familiar. Didn't the US try something like this back in the 70's? Sounds like a version of something I learned about in my teacher-education classes back in the day when I was getting my credential.

We tried it in the aeventies too. There seems to be abelief that it will work this time because of computers andsomehow thekids are different. The teachers keep saying that now days the teachers don't need to be the only source of info because of google. Maybe my school was the only one in the country that had books and instructon in how to use them?

[Janeway]

It seems to me that they are not teaching the kids. Sounds like a cop-out.

[Reefgazer]

I think for some kids, this model can work really well.  But for just as many or more, I think it would be  a disaster.  Do they have any peer-reviewed, hard data from this in other schools with a typical elementary-age population, and have you looked at the data?  I suspect the data is pretty thin on this type of education with a run-of-the-mill, heterogeneous classroom.

Edited February 13, 2016 by reefgazer

[MistyMountain]

Most of New Zealand is switching to that system? That does not sound like a good idea. None of my kids would do well with that. They need some direct instruction. One would love to have self directed time to purse passions and one feels put on the spot and does not do well with anything open ended but all of my kids need some instruction. So many kids would need more then that.

Edited February 13, 2016 by MistyMountain

[IsabelC]

My 7.5yo could probably learn well in that situation, but then she is the sort of "easy learner" who seems to learn in just about any kind of learning environment. My elder children (aged 12 and 10) would probably not learn much and might not cope in the relatively unstructured setting. I like the idea of self directed learning in theory, but in practice most kids would need lots of support and a transition period to ease into it. I don't agree with the lack of feedback. I don't think it's not appropriate at any school age to give the learner a list of objectives and expect them to rely totally on self-assessment of their progress. Even adult learners expect feedback from their professors or tutors regarding how well they have shown they know the course material.

Edited February 13, 2016 by IsabelC

[kiwik]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/north-canterbury/76804940/waimakariri-school-developments-signal-shift-to-modern-learning-environment

 

This isn't our school it is an intermediate.  The linked stories give a lot of other opinions.

 

The problem with having a small country with centralised planning and funding is that everybody jumps on every bandwagon supported at the top.  There are a few private schools that won't, the school I am looking at which is state integrated (a former private school that now operates as a state school but has 'special character' exemptions and practices).  There are also some schools that will comply as little as possible but still have classrooms that are set up for the new system.  There will also be schools that are trying to operate the new system in classes that are made for more traditional teaching and of course there are schools that would just like not to have leaky rooves and mould growing on the walls so the kids they teach aren't cold and sick.

 

Anyway your feedback has been very helpful and I will see how it goes.  I could always keep him home on my day off on the grounds he can do independent work just as well at home and if he is going to learn off youtube he may as well do it on our computer.

 

eta.  The topic is "will there be schools in the future and if so what will they look like?"  Ds8 says they will be the shape of clover leaves.  I think maybe he missed the point.

Edited February 13, 2016 by kiwik

[sewingmama]

It sounds like they are trying to introduce project/inquiry based learning.  It could work fantastically IF the teacher is properly trained in how to manage a classroom with this type of instruction but it will really fail if the teacher thinks all they have to do is tell the kids the topic and then let them "go at it on their own".  The few teachers I have read about who have succeeded in this environment where 100% invested in theory of how this works and they worked HARD to plan and set up the classroom for its success.  It might seem like the kids have all the control but in actual fact they are bounding off structures the teacher has put into place behind the scenes.

 

I'm trying to use this method at home and it is tough.  There is a lot of preplanning by the teacher that goes into "not teaching the kids" lol. 

 

If this is a government initiative that the teachers think is "just another thing to try" and they are not invested in it they won't succeed.  They need lots of training about how and why this method works. If a teacher is not supportive of teaching this way or doesn't understand the theory behind it then it very well may be a disaster with the kids doing nothing all day while the teacher refuses to interfere because that's what they think they are supposed to be doing.

 

My kids wouldn't succeed in that environment.  My DD9 would have a shot at it and then quickly become discouraged and overwhelmed.. She has dyslexia and although she can read well she has trouble staying focused on an assignment. Even at home she can look like she is paying attention to her math lesson and yet 3 hours later she is still working on it... and getting nowhere.

 

My DS8 who is gifted but a perfectionist would sit frozen in inaction in case he got something wrong. He likes guidelines and rules and concrete answers. He could definitely do the project well...IF you can get him to start because of fear of not doing the right thing.

 

My DS6 .. well that's a laugh.  He is totally self directed if it involves Lego LOL  He would walk around the class saying he wasn't going to work on it because it was boring and wastes time that could have been spent building Lego.

 

If the kids in the class have never done anything like that before they need instruction and guidelines on how it is to be done.  The teacher has to teach them what collaborative/inquiry based learning is and how you do it.  There needs to be rules for them to work within or the kids will get overwhelmed.

 

I hope the teacher has received proper training or they will be in for a stressful year.