(Controversial content) a letter to girls in the pew in front of us...

[*Lulu*]

Oh, does that blogger have a large male following? Men are going to be convinced that they have a right to cheat on their wives or molest girls or something because they read that blog post? I doubt both.

Those things were happening loooooooong before the advent of the World Wide Web.

 

The reason?

 

The sort of ideas perpetuated in the blog of this woman.

 

(And found in surprising quantities in your local Lifeway, at institutions of higher learning like Liberty, and in every thread on modesty I've ever read here.)

[BrookValley.]

Also, I don't want to get all mushy on y'all or anything, but I am totally digging that there is such a diverse group of people posting here--from all sorts of religious (or not) backgrounds and with very different personal definitions of modesty--who totally understand and agree with each other.

 

I like it.

[LucyStoner]

Oh my goodness! THOSE SHOES! They would have been considered very sinful in my IFB church growing up. In fact, I do believe that it's in the Gothard manuals that open toed shoes, especially heels, are supposed to be seductive. Open toed means you are trying to be sexy and loose. Heels like that, rather than conservative pumps, are supposed to push your tush up...again, sex appeal. And then red on top of it. (btw, those shoes are gorgeous! I just don't wear heels like that)

I have a pair of shoes like that. The same brand I am guessing judging from the way the heel looks. I have exactly *one place* I wear those shoes anymore. And let's just say it's not a place where one is vertical all that much. :P

 

Once, back when I could wear heels without killing my shins, I wore them to see an opera in SF with my husband. One couple was so overcome with my surpassing gorgeousness that they came over, told me I was beautiful and said that people must propose marriage to me on the spot when I wore the dress and shoes I was wearing. My husband and I had a good laugh over that.

 

Wait, no, we didn't laugh. We uh, still pray for forgiveness for me driving those poor unsuspecting souls to lust. A-yup. Everyday.

[SKL]

:confused1:   This woman and her ilk are promoting this idea.  Obviously, she is part of a larger problem. 

 

The blog post I read talked about dress *in church.*  With the idea being we don't want to distract worshipers from what they are in church for.  (A goal I remind my kids of often, so they will sit still and be quiet.)

 

I don't know what she's seen before that convinced her that some women's dress is distracting in church.  I can imagine it, but since I am not that blogger that's all I can do.  There are things people do that distract other worshipers and dress could be one of them.  Either way, she's entitled to her opinion on this.

 

If by "larger problem" you are talking about a so-called "rape culture" / "slut shaming" that says you probably shouldn't dress in a very sexy manner to walk alone in a dangerous neighborhood, I disagree that the linked blog post is about that.

[Mrs Mungo]

The blog post I read talked about dress *in church.*  With the idea being we don't want to distract worshipers from what they are in church for.  (A goal I remind my kids of often, so they will sit still and be quiet.)

 

I don't know what she's seen before that convinced her that some women's dress is distracting in church.  I can imagine it, but since I am not that blogger that's all I can do.  There are things people do that distract other worshipers and dress could be one of them.  Either way, she's entitled to her opinion on this.

 

If by "larger problem" you are talking about a so-called "rape culture" / "slut shaming" that says you probably shouldn't dress in a very sexy manner to walk alone in a dangerous neighborhood, I disagree that the linked blog post is about that.

Then you clearly haven't read the entire thread, since much of it was about the woman's OTHER blog posts.

[SKL]

I guess if you want to be angry, that is your prerogative.

[unsinkable]

Clueless. I'm taking about the idea it gives MEN.

I really hope you're not calling another poster clueless.

[Firefly]

Then you clearly haven't read the entire thread, since much of it was about the woman's OTHER blog posts.

 

:iagree:   That, or she's being deliberately obtuse.  I suspect the latter.

[SKL]

:iagree:   That, or she's being deliberately obtuse.  I suspect the latter.

 

Thanks for the kind and civil words.

 

[Firefly]

I really hope you're not calling another poster clueless.

 

 

My apologies- that was rather harsh.  I will edit.

[SKL]

We disagree on how much of a problem it is if an individual has a different opinion and expresses it.

[SKL]

My apologies- that was rather harsh.  I will edit.

 

Oh, I thought you meant you were not sure (clueless) where I was coming from.  Hmm.

 

Guess PMS isn't doing its job on me today.

 

[BrookValley.]

Thanks for the kind and civil words.

 

 

Oh, come on! :lol: I think you're a reasonably intelligent person, which only leaves that you are choosing to ignore large pieces of the discussion to support your chosen path through this thread, i.e., disagreement.

 

Really, have you read some of the other blog posts and read everyone's discussion here?

 

Please take the ROFLMAO smiley for what it is--absolutely true. I am giggling here.

[mommaduck]

I have a pair of shoes like that. The same brand I am guessing judging from the way the heel looks. I have exactly *one place* I wear those shoes anymore. And let's just say it's not a place where one is vertical all that much. :p

 

Once, back when I could wear heels without killing my shins, I wore them to see an opera in SF with my husband. One couple was so overcome with my surpassing gorgeousness that they came over, told me I was beautiful and said that people must propose marriage to me on the spot when I wore the dress and shoes I was wearing. My husband and I had a good laugh over that.

 

Wait, no, we didn't laugh. We uh, still pray for forgiveness for me driving those poor unsuspecting souls to lust. A-yup. Everyday.

 

Depending upon what size shoe they were, they may have been lusting JUST over the shoes LOL! I have a friend with a very, very tall daughter (and large feet). Every new season, she would find out the stores had just run out of her size. Finally a salesclerk clued her in. She needs to get into the stores AS SOON AS the season turns over. She was apparently competing with the area's drag queens for her size shoe. She laughs about how she has to compete with men for Sunday heels.

 

[PrairieSong]

That's so sad. I'm sorry you went through that and I feel so sad for the old man at church, too. :(

 

The church that embarrassed me had the same way of thought... you had to be really dressed up, too. What about people who can't afford to buy the fancy clothing? Do they think God is concerned with how fancy our clothes are when we go to church? Come on people, have you actually READ your Bibles?!

Thanks, Jinnah, but you know what? As hurtful as it was at the time, I'm glad it happened. It made me realize what it was like to be judged like that. Oh I wasn't running up to people telling them what they should or shouldn't wear like one of my friends was, but the judgment was there all the same. Oh, those poor people, they just don't know about modesty like WE do. It's pride, really. White-washed tombs full of dead men's bones. As another friend put it once, "people who wear their Christianity on the outside, but not on the inside." I had to walk away from those friends. One of them changed her tune completely, and we are friends again. The other goes to church somewhere else and I never see her.

 

I didn't wear a skirt for a while after that episode, haha. Now I like skirts. I like jeans. I like the quote from MominAZ's (I think it was her) pastor, "Why do you care what other people are wearing?"

[SKL]

Tolerance for different opinions is a good thing IMO.

[BrookValley.]

We disagree on how much of a problem it is if an individual has a different opinion and expresses it.

 

Ok, I get this. But I don't think anyone is saying people shouldn't express that opinion, it's what happens when certain opinions are expressed and perpetuated in a way that can really be harmful. It's not just someone making an off-hand comment and you thinking, "eh, big deal" and shrugging it off. People are more concerned about deeply entrenched misogyny and other ideas that can be harmful to women. 

 

Does that make any sense? I feel like I'm rambling, sorry. I need a nap.

[Firefly]

Thanks for the kind and civil words.

 

 

 

The clueless comment was, and I do apologize for that.  I'm not angry, just very passionate about this subject (not an excuse).  I think it should be extremely important to anyone who has daughters and not dismissed as just some harmless kook on the interwebs.  Guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[*Lulu*]

Y'all, I don't normally get upset about threads here, even when I think people posting in them are totally wrong.

 

This thread has very much upset me.

 

It has been more than two decades since the first instance of abuse and I STILL am dealing with it.

 

I have PTSD and physical damage that STILL impact my daily life.

 

The dismissive tone and the attitude that those sitting in judgement of this blogger's IDEAS are being hypocrites is just too similar to the attitudes I faced from Christians when I first shared about the abuse I had suffered in the church at the hands of professing Christians and *gasp* even a minister.

 

I'm not coming to this as some saber rattling god hater who wants to trash Christianity.

 

I am a Christian who knows first hand the harm these ideas can contribute to.

 

I believe that these ideas are not just unscriptural, but harmful to Christians.

 

I have every bit as much the right to share my thoughts and experiences as a Christian wife as she does.

 

Only, in this case, I have a hell of a lot more experience to speak from.

[SKL]

I think it's more important to teach our kids that they will hear different views and must use their own brains to evaluate them.  If we really believe it is dangerous for our kids (or husbands or whoever) to hear different views, to me that is scarier.

[LucyStoner]

Depending upon what size shoe they were, they may have been lusting JUST over the shoes LOL! I have a friend with a very, very tall daughter (and large feet). Every new season, she would find out the stores had just run out of her size. Finally a salesclerk clued her in. She needs to get into the stores AS SOON AS the season turns over. She was apparently competing with the area's drag queens for her size shoe. She laughs about how she has to compete with men for Sunday heels.

 

Her daughter should go to San Francisco. I am tall with size 11 feet and that's the only city I didn't have trouble finding super heels stocked in my size. I figured it was because of the large drag scene there.

 

That said, it was clear they were interested in more than just my shoes. You know, because I am just that gorgeous. (J/K ;) )

[Lang Syne Boardie]

We disagree on how much of a problem it is if an individual has a different opinion and expresses it.

 

This is not the issue, which is obvious to anyone who reads the whole thread. Very cogent arguments have been made and points have been supported and seconded, all by a cohort of women who obviously have absolutely zero problem with people having different opinions and expressing them as evidenced on this very thread.

 

It's OK to admit you have no experience with the culture and attitudes being discussed and don't understand, therefore, exactly what is so offensive. That would be better than acting like you know more about it than the people who actually know about it and scolding everybody over stuff you don't know anything about.

[BrookValley.]

I think it's more important to teach our kids that they will hear different views and must use their own brains to evaluate them.  If we really believe it is dangerous for our kids (or husbands or whoever) to hear different views, to me that is scarier.

 

I really doubt anyone disagrees with that. But that's not the point. The point is we've heard it, and we think it's harmful, and we're going to speak up about it.

[SKL]

Y'all, I don't normally get upset about threads here, even when I think people posting in them are totally wrong.

 

This thread has very much upset me.

 

It has been more than two decades since the first instance of abuse and I STILL am dealing with it.

 

I have PTSD and physical damage that STILL impact my daily life.

 

The dismissive tone and the attitude that those sitting in judgement of this blogger's IDEAS are being hypocrites is just too similar to the attitudes I faced from Christians when I first shared about the abuse I had suffered in the church at the hands of professing Christians and *gasp* even a minister.

 

I'm not coming to this as some saber rattling god hater who wants to trash Christianity.

 

I am a Christian who knows first hand the harm these ideas can contribute to.

 

I believe that these ideas are not just unscriptural, but harmful to Christians.

 

I have every bit as much the right to share my thoughts and experiences as a Christian wife as she does.

 

Only, in this case, I have a hell of a lot more experience to speak from.

 

Absolutely share your opinions and experience.  It would probably be even better if you shared them in the context where they are most relevant - venues where Christian ideals are discussed.

 

However, sharing from your own heart is different from protesting another person's sharing from hers.

 

 

[BrookValley.]

Y'all, I don't normally get upset about threads here, even when I think people posting in them are totally wrong.

 

This thread has very much upset me.

 

It has been more than two decades since the first instance of abuse and I STILL am dealing with it.

 

I have PTSD and physical damage that STILL impact my daily life.

 

The dismissive tone and the attitude that those sitting in judgement of this blogger's IDEAS are being hypocrites is just too similar to the attitudes I faced from Christians when I first shared about the abuse I had suffered in the church at the hands of professing Christians and *gasp* even a minister.

 

I'm not coming to this as some saber rattling god hater who wants to trash Christianity.

 

I am a Christian who knows first hand the harm these ideas can contribute to.

 

I believe that these ideas are not just unscriptural, but harmful to Christians.

 

I have every bit as much the right to share my thoughts and experiences as a Christian wife as she does.

 

Only, in this case, I have a hell of a lot more experience to speak from.

 

:grouphug:   I'm sorry this discussion upset you. Just remember there's a lot of people here who support you.

 

 

[flyingiguana]

This reminds me of the time I decided to try out a new church (on my own).  I went in, modestly dressed.  Slacks and a nice shirt.  I realized right after I got there that all the women were wearing either skirts or dresses.  The pastor spent almost the entire sermon preaching against the immodesty of women wearing pants like men.  I wanted to sink through the floor, I was so embarrassed.  There was also a young teenager in pants and I felt so badly for her, as I knew she must have felt like I did.  At least I was old enough to know this was wrong.  I hope she did, too.  I'm still angry about that day. This rule is man-made... classic example of someone twisting the Bible to get what they want out of it.  

 

This is what her blog post reminded me of.

So how many guys in the Bible actually wore pants?

[myfunnybunch]

I guess if you want to be angry, that is your prerogative.

 

Disagreement does not equal anger or vitriol. Nor is anger an inappropriate emotion during a disagreement.

 

Accusing people of anger (or vitriol) for expressing disagreement, as though anger or any other emotional reaction is somehow out of place, is a conversation stopper.

 

One can disagree with an idea passionately, even angrily, without invalidating the argument they're presenting.

 

 

[LucyStoner]

I certainly do not find reading her ideas to be dangerous. And when I am filled with vitriol and anger, I tend to not be cracking jokes about avocado shirts that double as inter tubes and chastity belts. Just saying.

[BrookValley.]

Absolutely share your opinions and experience.  It would probably be even better if you shared them in the context where they are most relevant - venues where Christian ideals are discussed.

 

However, sharing from your own heart is different from protesting another person's sharing from hers.

 

 

 

Where is anyone protesting Phylicia sharing her opinion? No one is protesting her right or ability to share her experience. We're just saying it's crap. Big difference. Very big difference.

 

And why the heck would it be better if BLA5 shared her story/opinion/feelings on a venue where Christian ideals are discussed?? As a non-Christian, I'm glad she's sharing here. Very glad. I've learned a lot from her posts on this forum, both in this thread and others. I don't see how it is any less relevant here? :confused1:

[SKL]

This is not the issue, which is obvious to anyone who reads the whole thread. Very cogent arguments have been made and points have been supported and seconded, all by a cohort of women who obviously have absolutely zero problem with people having different opinions and expressing them as evidenced on this very thread.

 

It's OK to admit you have no experience with the culture and attitudes being discussed and don't understand, therefore, exactly what is so offensive. That would be better than acting like you know more about it than the people who actually know about it and scolding everybody over stuff you don't know anything about.

 

I have as much experience as lots of the people expressing anger and fear here.

 

So much for civility.  Bye everyone.

 

[LucyStoner]

So how many guys in the Bible actually wore pants?

That is what has always baffled me about the religiously motivated skirts only thing for women.

 

Why aren't these biblical dress types wearing robes? Pants are an invention linked to the rise of horses. Pants certainly aren't biblical, for men or women.

[SKL]

Where is anyone protesting Phylicia sharing her opinion? No one is protesting her right or ability to share her experience. We're just saying it's crap. Big difference. Very big difference.

 

And why the heck would it be better if BLA5 shared her story/opinion/feelings on a venue where Christian ideals are discussed?? As a non-Christian, I'm glad she's sharing here. Very glad. I've learned a lot from her posts on this forum, both in this thread and others. I don't see how it is any less relevant here? :confused1:

 

I did not say she should not share it here.

 

I said it would be even better if she shared it where it might actually make a difference.  Because I don't think too many people here are in a position to decide how these issues are dealt with in church and other Christian venues.  If it's a real problem it would be great to work on solving it.

[Joanne]

Yeah, I don't understand the vitriol against the blog post. I do understand almost everyone disagreeing with it. I understand most people viewing the author as a naive or immature person. But I don't understand why any of that should make anyone angry.

 

I mean, it's an obscure blog post that most people will never see except in the present type of context ("look how crazy this woman is"). It has no power to hurt us or our daughters, unless we know that lady personally and attend her church.

 

People have ideas we disagree with. Some blog about them. So what?

Actually, I talk about ideas. The ideas behind her post and what this ideas represent and how they play out in lived experience is a big deal to me. Her provincial experience on "modesty" is not of consequence in my life, but the culture and sub cultures from which those opinions emerged are of great interest and importance to me.

 

Perhaps, since none of this topic matters to you, you can start or participate in one of hundreds of others. I don't participate in many of those because they are not of interest or importance to me.

[bolt.]

That is what has always baffled me about the religiously motivated skirts only thing for women.

 

Why aren't these biblical dress types wearing robes? Pants are a later invention linked to the rise of horses. Pants certainly aren't biblical, for men or women.

That's a good one, but it's even more comical when the "skirts only" group occasionally send their girls to prestigious private schools that require them to wear kilts. Kilts definitely "pertaineth to a man" -- don't they even notice?

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess if you want to be angry, that is your prerogative.

 

Is this to me? I don't know what gives you the idea that I'm angry? Disagreement is not anger or "vitriol." It just isn't.

[*Lulu*]

I certainly do not find reading her ideas to be dangerous. And when I am filled with vitriol and anger, I tend to not be cracking jokes about avocado shirts that double as inter tubes and chastity belts. Just saying.

  

That is what has always baffled me about the religiously motivated skirts only thing for women.

Why aren't these biblical dress types wearing robes? Pants are a later invention linked to the rise of horses. Pants certainly aren't biblical, for men or women.

Very true.

 

And that sparks some ideas for the second Yoga Pant Sluts album:

 

Naked Under My Chastity Belt

No Pants Dance

I Wanna Make Guacamole With You

[bolt.]

I did not say she should not share it here.

 

I said it would be even better if she shared it where it might actually make a difference. Because I don't think too many people here are in a position to decide how these issues are dealt with in church and other Christian venues. If it's a real problem it would be great to work on solving it.

I am in a position to make a difference! I garuntee that the Internet-chat driven evolution of my ideas (such as this one) are of great consequence in my Church and even the sphere of related Churches.

 

Many of us have voices that matter. Including you -- probably!

[LucyStoner]

I Wanna Make Guacamole With You

:P

 

Come a little closer baby. Let's make guacamole.

[Mrs Mungo]

I did not say she should not share it here.

 

I said it would be even better if she shared it where it might actually make a difference.  Because I don't think too many people here are in a position to decide how these issues are dealt with in church and other Christian venues.  If it's a real problem it would be great to work on solving it.

 

She was talking *to* Christians who share the same ideas as the blogger and explaining to them why these ideas are harmful. That *IS* working to solve the problem.

[*Lulu*]

:P

 

Come a little closer baby. Let's make guacamole.

We could do it as a remix of the original hit, Yoga Pant Sluts, with the "tsk, tsk, tsk" hook!

[*Lulu*]

Where is anyone protesting Phylicia sharing her opinion? No one is protesting her right or ability to share her experience. We're just saying it's crap. Big difference. Very big difference.

 

And why the heck would it be better if BLA5 shared her story/opinion/feelings on a venue where Christian ideals are discussed?? As a non-Christian, I'm glad she's sharing here. Very glad. I've learned a lot from her posts on this forum, both in this thread and others. I don't see how it is any less relevant here? :confused1:

  

I am in a position to make a difference! I garuntee that the Internet-chat driven evolution of my ideas (such as this one) are of great consequence in my Church and even the sphere of related Churches.

Many of us have voices that matter. Including you -- probably!

  

She was talking *to* Christians who share the same ideas as the blogger and explaining to them why these ideas are harmful. That *IS* working to solve the problem.

Thank you.

[Mrs Mungo]

Actually, I talk about ideas. The ideas behind her post and what this ideas represent and how they play out in lived experience is a big deal to me. Her provincial experience on "modesty" is not of consequence in my life, but the culture and sub cultures from which those opinions emerged are of great interest and importance to me.

 

Perhaps, since none of this topic matters to you, you can start or participate in one of hundreds of others. I don't participate in many of those because they are not of interest or importance to me.

 

Out of likes, so I have to use one of these guys:

:iagree:

[myfunnybunch]

No, it informs us that there are people who think that way.  It does not "perpetuate the idea" except within the very small group who already think that way.  And even in such groups, young girls have brains and they can see reality for what it is sooner or later.

 

Covering up one's skin to please one's parents and their church is not going to hurt anyone.  It's not that much different from wearing a uniform to school.  It does not prevent girls from thinking for themselves and making their own rational decisions when they are older.

 

My parents told me all kinds of things I never believed.  The brain is a wonderful thing.

 

Your girls are so fortunate that you teach them to think things through for themselves. You're fortunate that you were able to critically evaluate the ideals and values presented by your parents. :) (I mean that. I'm not being snotty.)

 

That's not the case for all young women. Teens in this culture, teen girls particularly, are bombarded with messages about their bodies, are implicitly taught to please, and are particularly vulnerable to the opinions and judgments of those around them. Having one of the cool young-marrieds at church comment on their bodies and appearance, and perpetuate the message that they are responsible for the thoughts of the young men around them, can leave a mark. It's not that this one blogger's opinion in and of itself is damaging, it's that it's one more drop in the drip-drip-drip of messages that wear away at young women and their sense of their own power and self-determination. And at young men, for that matter. The message sent about and to young men in that blog post is just as damaging.

 

And again, presumably people from this blogger's church read her blog and could potentially identify these particular girls. They may even read her blog themselves.

 

Cat

[Joanne]

 

 

Covering up one's skin to please one's parents and their church is not going to hurt anyone. It's not that much different from wearing a uniform to school. It does not prevent girls from thinking for themselves and making their own rational decisions when .

Actually, living in a patriarchal society on the extreme end of that continuum is, indeed, harmful. We have moms in this thread witnessing to that fact.

 

Living in a culture that hyper focuses on sexual thought in men, elevates virginity as a virtue and strips women of authentic and holistic power while holding them responsible for the thoughts of men is absurd and, yes, evil. Conservative religious folk of this ilk are no less sexually dysfunctioned than porn addicts and the porn industry. Same hyper focus, same objectification of women, same skewed perception of the importance of sex in life.

[LucyStoner]

I am kinda wondering what people who think this thread is filled with anger and vitriol would think when presented with a slew of women who are actually angry and filled with vitriol. I sorta have the general sense that if this is anger, people don't know from anger.

[PrairieSong]

We disagree on how much of a problem it is if an individual has a different opinion and expresses it.

I don't think anyone here has said that the blogger shouldn't have an opinion or express it, but if some of us disagree should we not express that and discuss it? If we think her ideas are part of a bigger picture, ideas and attitudes that HURT people (did you read what BLA5 shared about abuse?) then we are supposed to keep silent??

[Mrs Mungo]

I am kinda wondering what people who think this thread is filled with anger and vitriol would think when presented with a slew of women who are actually angry and filled with vitriol. I sorta have the general sense that if this is anger, people don't know from anger.

 

Amen. 

[myfunnybunch]

  

I Wanna Make Guacamole With You

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I can't believe people of this blogger's spleen are mad at us and not thrilled for her. This is a LOT of publicity and a LOT of blog hits for her. We may be creating the next Matt Walsh right this minute.

[*Lulu*]

I am kinda wondering what people who think this thread is filled with anger and vitriol would think when presented with a slew of women who are actually angry and filled with vitriol. I sorta have the general sense that if this is anger, people don't know from anger.

  

Amen.

 

I guess it's a good thing y'all haven't finished production of those novelty pitchforks and torches!