Robinson, TJE, DEAR–What Happens When Students "Just" Read?

[Hunter]

Without getting into the specific political aspects of each method/curriculum, what happens when students spend a huge portion of their day "just" reading?

 

In low income schools, adding a DEAR(drop everything and read) period boosts test scores.

 

I know as a child, that all that reading I did is what set me apart from the other low-income and neglected children.

 

Is "just" reading only a second-best activity for deprived students, or are more privileged students being denied a chance to engage in this important activity to their detriment?

 

Who, here, was basically left alone as a child to just read, while receiving almost no formal education at their local PS? What do you think about that now? I know I USED to think more formal nonfiction studies would have been better, but now I'm not so sure. Yes, I'm rough around the edges, but…I learned a LOT–things that often many so-called educated people didn't learn. I'm not so sure I would trade what I did learn and who I am, for a few more facts and better spelling and mechanics skills.

[Haiku]

I think that just reading is fine for a grammar-stage student. She'd build a vast store of knowledge that way, as long as the reading was varied and not just a steady diet of a single genre. But once you move beyond grammar stage, there are skills you need to develop (organizing, synthesizing, analyzing, and communicating information) that I don't think can be efficiently developed by just reading.

[maize]

I spent most of my time between ages 9 and 16 reading, I do think that did more for me than most of my formal education. I don't think just any reading would necessarily be beneficial, though. I read a lot of well -written and thought provoking books, including Tolstoy, Hugo, Dickens, Shakespeare, and lots of science fiction 👍

[kubiac]

Does it have to be a "type" of school?

 

Anyway, after reading The Book Whisperer, I am pretty well convinced that a "language arts" curriculum of two-plus hours of free reading per day could suffice for or even surpass a standard curriculum.

 

Bear in mind, I have no actual proof of this other than a similar feeling about my own education. Wide, interest-led reading filled in a LOT of holes and supplied or enriched interests that were not a part of the standard school program.

[Hunter]

Does it have to be a "type" of school?

 

Anyway, after reading The Book Whisperer, I am pretty well convinced that a "language arts" curriculum of two-plus hours of free reading per day could suffice for or even surpass a standard curriculum.

 

Bear in mind, I have no actual proof of this other than a similar feeling about my own education. Wide, interest-led reading filled in a LOT of holes and supplied or enriched interests that were not a part of the standard school program.

 

I just put a hold on the book at the library. Thanks!

[scrapbabe]

Listening in.

[stm4him]

This has been on my mind a bit.  The Robinson method fascinates me in some ways because it is so simple, though the actual curriculum itself doesn't fit for me.  TJEis also alluring for some of the same reasons.  I LOVE what we do with Classical Conversations and based on my experience I find building a mental storehouse of information to be very important in the grammar years for sparking curiosity and beginning to understand how things work by meditating on the things memorized.  So memorization will always be a part of any education in this house.  But apart from that, because my health is struggling and I have so many to teach I fantasize sometimes about a very, very simple plan.  It would maybe look something like this:

 

How to Tutor- learn to read, write, and do math facts

Saxon Math grades 4-12

Saxon/Hake Grammar and Writing 4-8

Bible in 90 Days (about 1 hour of reading)

Map drawing and other drawing as desired

Possibly ancient and modern languages independently

 

Everything else would be done through reading, of course adding labs for science (probably using Apologia starting in 4th independently). I am sure as they were older I would want them to do some sort of formal logic course and have some speaking opportunities.  One problem is that there is no spelling instruction in here.  I might consider doing that with SWR cds and the Wise Guide as an answer key simply because it could be done independently that way and they would have a way to figure out why they misspelled a word, but I wouldn't start it until 4th grade so they could mostly do it by themselves.  In high school they would do math, science, Bible, and then read the classics and write essays.  I'm sure some fun classes would come up here and there as I was able to afford them but I would have a certain amount of trust that their interests would lead us to the right opportunities at the right times for anything above what I mentioned.  I'm not sure if their reading time would be using a list (like TJE for teens) or not.  

 

Anyway, I was just curious to see your reaction to a plan like this, Hunter.  My daughter will enter Challenge A next year and she is determined to go, but I am thinking long term as to what is feasible financially and with my health and sometimes I think I will be stretched too thin and the friendly pressure of accountability that I usually thrive on will become something I resent when my kids are in all diifferent Challenge levels from 7th-12th grades doing different things (although I think the program is beautifully and masterfully put together when you understand how it all plays out).  If I were in good health I wouldn't think twice about changing what we're doing but I guess I want to have a plan B in mind if we decide it is more than we can manage physically or financially.  

 

Anything significant missing in this plan?  And what is your opinion of How to Tutor now?  Is it mostly sufficient for up through 3rd grade?

 

stm4him

[Hunter]

stm4him, I really like your idea of HTT followed by the audio files from SWR done independently. That would work really well. The same thing for Saxon after HTT. I have never seen Hake Grammar but have always wanted to. If you get too bogged down in any of the Saxon/Hake choices, the Amish workbooks would work, too.

You plan is very logical, realistic, well rounded, and systematic, and I think a solid complement to a reading based curriculum.

Sometimes when it's all said and done, the fall-back plan turns out to have been the best plan. I know that happened with us several times. Sickness and poverty rerouted us, and the results were actually better, than the original plan.

I tried to pull out my SWR audio files this week, but don't have anything that can read the files directly off the CD, and a plain copy and paste to a thumbdrive or device doesn't work either. Sigh! I'm going to need to invest in some more tech at some point, but...I'm not sure what.

[Hunter]

I've just been thinking about this a lot. What would have happened if I'd had a "better" education?

[Mommyfaithe]

I think it depends on the kid,  how well they comprehend what they read,  and whether or not they have an interested other person to listen to them and their ideas.  Some books left alone in the hands of a child can lead to some very weird ideas....but those same weird ideas can be the sparks of some great learning and conversation/ writing. 

 

A few times in our homeschooling years,  my kids were "just" reading and writing...and doing a math program.  We had some of our best homeschooling years that way,  but they always had me, their dad, other siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles , family friends etc. to discuss their reading and new ideas with.  They were NOT left alone with their reading and learning.  It was a process.  Some kids studied things I would never had thought of for them.  It was an interesting experiment. 

 

My kids have grown up well.  They are students or college graduates with good careers and clean lifestyles.  Yes,  it was an experiment because I did not know at the time how it would turn out....it was desparation, because we can not utilize the public schools in this area,  we did not have enough money for private schools and either I was ill, or taking care of ailing parents. 

 

Just my experience.  YMMV.

Faithe

[Hunter]

 

 

Just rambling.  There is no real point to my post!

 

 

 

Everyone is free to ramble. That's all I'm doing.

[stm4him]

Hunter, thank you so much for your encouraging words. I really need that right now.

Can you tell me more about How to Tutor? I can start a new topic so I don't hijack this one.

One thing I wanted to say is that my son is a walking history book and it is mostly because he reads about history like crazy on his own, but I haven't had the same level of success with science reading. He does enjoy reading Real Science 4 Kids and making key word outlines of the summary and then writing a paragraph. I am debating whether science reading should be assigned or Not in the grammar years. Any thoughts on science reading?

[Another Lynn]

I think it depends on the kid,  how well they comprehend what they read,  and whether or not they have an interested other person to listen to them and their ideas.  Some books left alone in the hands of a child can lead to some very weird ideas....but those same weird ideas can be the sparks of some great learning and conversation/ writing. 

 

A few times in our homeschooling years,  my kids were "just" reading and writing...and doing a math program.  We had some of our best homeschooling years that way,  but they always had me, their dad, other siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles , family friends etc. to discuss their reading and new ideas with.  They were NOT left alone with their reading and learning.  It was a process.  Some kids studied things I would never had thought of for them.  It was an interesting experiment. 

 

My kids have grown up well.  They are students or college graduates with good careers and clean lifestyles.  Yes,  it was an experiment because I did not know at the time how it would turn out....it was desparation, because we can not utilize the public schools in this area,  we did not have enough money for private schools and either I was ill, or taking care of ailing parents. 

 

Just my experience.  YMMV.

Faithe

 

A little OT, but I wanted to say that I like your signature update!

 

[Caroline]

I recently did some research on 90-90-90 schools. 90-90-90 schools are those with at least 90% free/reduced lunch, 90% minoroities, and 90% passing or exceeding on standardized tests. One thing 90-90-90 schools have in common is reading across the curriculum. Another thing is a huge focus on non-fiction, information dense texts. Rambling along here... I teach in a 90-90 school. We aren't even close to having a 90% graduation rate. However, our most successful kids are those who are continuously reading. So I have integrated that into my teaching. Instead of just learning about the math behind exponential functions, let's read some texts on population growth. Then let's fit some exponential curves to the population data. Students in my school tend to learn information better when I can give them a reason to learn it. Can I relate it to their dad's job? To their big brother's life and death? To the pregnancy rate in our school? To the NCAA tournament? To drifting? To immigration issues?

 

My own children have access to tons of books at home.My own children have access to my Amazon Prime account at any time. My students do not have access to tons of books at home. DEAR time works for my own kids because they always have a number of books in their backpacks. Why? Because I make sure every morning before they go to school. My students have books that I give them. My students are lucky to get food. My students are lucky to have heat. Their parents are working on their basic survival. I gladly hand them books to read.

 

Access to vocabulary is the major gap between affluent and poverty kids. Reading can help close the gap. Having teachers who use academic vocabulary can help close the gap. Watching the national news can help close the gap, although not as much as it used to. Even the NBC, CBS, ABC national news does not have the same rich vocabulary it used to, let alone the 24 hours news-entertainment channels.

 

DEAR works in high poverty schools because it helps close the vocabulary gap.

[smfmommy]

My eldest daughter did this very thing. She read extensively, all genres and most subjects. She started requesting to read the classics after seeing them mentioned so often in her fiction books. I had to insist on science but she read enough to get what I titled a survey curse on her transcripts (she is not going to college at this time and it would not be for a stem career if she did).  Her spelling/grammar/writing developed a little later but mostly because she was trying to copy the quality literature she was reading.

 

Second eldest has been similar but not as voracious. I have a book list that she is required to get through. Third child is not much of a reader and I am doing more direct instruction with her. Fourth child will probably follow in elders foot steps. The boys will probably be more direct instruction with projects.  So in my experience it can be done but certain learning types will need more direction in the choice of books. But you also have to be patient.  The knowledge base develops later because books tend to focus on a single life or event so it takes more books to cover the same ground as a textbook. But the information tends to be more in-depth and remembered.

 

 

 

[Hunter]

DEAR works in high poverty schools because it helps close the vocabulary gap.

This gives me a lot to think about.

[Kareni]

What an interesting discussion.  I've been enjoying reading your thoughts.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Hunter]

A 'better' education might enable you to become more proficient in adding add'l skills quickly, or reason differently than you do now. You might also have a more enriched life that enables you to appreciate and enjoy more. Or you might have learned something that would allow you to have a healthier life. You might participate more fully in the "Great Conversation". You may see grays instead of black/white. You may see more possibilities.

Does using textbooks and studying complicated methods of analyzing books accomplish the above goals better than actually just reading lots of books? I know it accomplishes OTHER goals, but what about these ones?

And is joining in the "Great Conversation" more important than being able to join in everyday conversations with people of all ages and places? I recently shocked a group of older men when I joined a conversation on WW2 era submarine warfare. :lol:

I'm just thinking aloud here. It's just something I've been thinking a lot about. I still want to clean up some weak areas in my education, but I'm starting to view it differently. I've been able to converse meaningfully with such a wide variety of people, and I'm only starting to fully understand how that is thought of as a sign of an excellent education, especially with all the current global focus.

I've been only focusing on the gaps, and not really looking at the strengths of my education. I've been assuming that more in other areas would leave me with ALL I have plus more, but now I'm thinking maybe that isn't possible. There were only so many hours in the day.

[Hunter]

Hunter, thank you so much for your encouraging words. I really need that right now.

Can you tell me more about How to Tutor? I can start a new topic so I don't hijack this one.

One thing I wanted to say is that my son is a walking history book and it is mostly because he reads about history like crazy on his own, but I haven't had the same level of success with science reading. He does enjoy reading Real Science 4 Kids and making key word outlines of the summary and then writing a paragraph. I am debating whether science reading should be assigned or Not in the grammar years. Any thoughts on science reading?

I'm falling behind in responding to so many great threads, but the more I look at Hake Grammar and Writing and look at your list, the more impressed I am with it. I want to talk about it when I get a chance.

And you are making me want to get some tech that will read those SWR CDs! :lol:

[stm4him]

I am kind of Ocd when it comes to programs. I want to commit to the whole thing or not at all sonly for the longest time I have been committed to Saxon Math all the way from K-12. And I do like all of it but multiple levels of the Larson books will drive you batty. My oldest is in 5/4 this year and though it is not easy for her she has told me she never wants to switch because she is truly learning math now. But what I am realizing is that I can commit to the books written by Hake and drop the Larson books if they are too much for me in favor of simply learning their facts like the Robinson curriculum suggests. Because we love the Hake math books so much, I am thinking that the Grammar and Writing books would work for us too and pretty much covers what we are learning in Essentials but in a different style (more self-teaching vs conversational).

I am also thinking that we may just commit to the Apologia books written by Wile and drop the ones by Fulbright only because I am wondering if it is too much in the grammar years, but if they were interested I might buy the lab kits for them in younger grades. My third and fourth kiddos seem much more sciency by nature than my oldest two.

For Latin and Greek I like Latin's Not So Tough and Hey Andrew because they can be done independently and have lots of review. I would start those in 4th unless there was strong interest before then. Other languages could wait until 7th grade and up.

Keeping the formal curriculum list super simple in the early grades frees time up for character and life skills and as much delight directed read aloud as I can handle. Being able to grab one book to teach reading and maybe a handful of flashcards just sounds so nice. But would you teach them handwriting before reading or after? Maybe one would teach them to read and then write and then redo A-P for copying or Dictation. After their reading and writing were on their way, math facts could be introduced. This way I would have on

[stm4him]

Only one area of teaching focus per kid in the younger year.

The cool thing about the Bible in 90 days is that when you read it that fast the stories really come alive and you make all kinds of connections that you don't make when you read it slowly. And if everyone is in the same place it makes for great discussions.

SWR as laid out above has obvious benefits.

More later...

[Hunter]

What are the Larson books? The rest I'm going to wait to comment on till the forum comes back up.

[stm4him]

Larson books are the Saxon books for grades k through third written by Nancy Larson.

I didn't know the forum was going down.

[stm4him]

Oh, and when I say multiple levels I mean teaching more than one level of the scripted books at a time. One year I taught 4 levels of the scripted Saxon books at a time. Somehow I survived but my house was crazy messy.

[Hunter]

Have you seen the Christian Liberty arithmetic workbooks? They look like they would be a perfect prep for Saxon, that would be less teacher intensive.

At the top of my iPad screen is a warning the forum will go down at 11:00 EST

[ElizabethB]

Webster's Speller could be used for all age groups for both phonics and spelling, with syllables as the common basis. I like Blend Phonics better for monosyllable words, but used straight Webster for them with my daughter and it worked fine. Basically, the program here, adds in spelling rules to Webster:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html

But use the complete Webster instead, here is the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Websters-Spelling-Method-Teaching-Reading/dp/1496153278/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395106994&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=webster+spelling+book+donald+lpotter

And here is the PDF:

http://www.donpotter.net/pdf/websterspellingbookmethod.pdf

I also really like these charts as well, I like to start with the talking frog for the basics and then point to the charts for other sounds. Don Potter has used them for a while, he also has the poster size for his class. The small ones are fine for tutoring. It cuts down on the number of times you have to say, what does ai say? Wait, dazed look, say "a." After I got tired of doing that (it only took me 17 years) I broke down and bought the charts, now I point at the chart and the student figures out the sound on their own.

https://www.phonovisual.com/products.php?id=207

I also have the small consonant charts, few of my students need those, but it is shipping that is the expensive thing compared to the charts so I bought both in one order in case I ever needed the consonant charts.

That was how Spellers were used in One Room Schools in the past, every year a teaching of basic syllables for all that needed it and then students working on reading and spelling words at their level, all the words based on the syllables.

[Hunter]

Okay, I think the boards are back up.

I can be OCD about wanting to do an entire series. I get that. I don't consider the primary math Saxon at all. I don't think it existed when we started Saxon.

As for Hake Grammar and Writing–I would not do both Hake and Latin. I would choose one or the other.

One thing I have learned is that when one thing is changed in a curriculum, other changes often need to follow to create balance. The whole is more important than the pieces. Hake Grammar and writing is a LOT of work!!!! The whole would need to accommodate it.

If cursive-first is being used, I strongly recommend ElizabethB's recommendation of a syllabary. I think it's essential for student to copy syllables in cursive, as writing in cursive requires writing syllable by syllable, not letter by letter.

[Soror]

Interesting thread. I'm still considering how to do content here as I've yet to find something that just fits us and seems to flow well in our schedule. Ds does read voraciously but when I tried to make his science and history just assigned reading it seemed I sucked the joy out of it a bit. Perhaps I picked the wrong books? I can strew some books and he just reads them on his own. He reads science magazines well, any magazine really. I really need to be studying booklists I guess and find what fits better because obviously I missed the mark on a lot last year. 

[Hunter]

Interesting thread. I'm still considering how to do content here as I've yet to find something that just fits us and seems to flow well in our schedule. Ds does read voraciously but when I tried to make his science and history just assigned reading it seemed I sucked the joy out of it a bit. Perhaps I picked the wrong books? I can strew some books and he just reads them on his own. He reads science magazines well, any magazine really. I really need to be studying booklists I guess and find what fits better because obviously I missed the mark on a lot last year.

I think some children take longer to be ready to transition from stories to non-fiction. And some people never totally enjoy non-fiction. Have your tried the books like Burgess Bird books and other narratives?

Which science topics were you covering. Some young students are fine with living science, but not ready for the physical sciences.

Sometimes a reluctant student will sit through 5-10 minutes of content, if you promise that content will be in the upcoming story. For example a little bit about beans or plants, before reading Jack and the Beanstock. Or a bit about Hares vs Rabbits before reading the Hare and Tortoise.

I find most children are fascinated with insects. And magnets. And monkeys. And Parrots. I don't think we need to worry about content checklists until late middle school.

[OneStepAtATime]

I read voraciously as a child, and I am glad of it now.  We moved a LOT.  Dad was military.  My education was a bit erratic.  Different school systems were at different points along the spectrum of math and language arts.  But all the free reading I did kept vocabulary and concepts coming.  And even though I can't diagram a sentence to save my life, I got a near perfect score on the language arts portion of the SAT and did very well on my written papers in high school and college.   I attribute the bulk of that to the copious amounts of free reading I did.  I even created my own card catalog.  Each card had a summary on the back, too.  I would loan out books just like a library.  It gave me lots of things to talk about with friends.  I do wish I had had more hands on learning, too.  We just didn't do much hands on learning in school and Mom and Dad were big book fans, not hands on people so I didn't get that at home either terribly often.

 

But neither of my kids was able to read well (undiagnosed dyslexics) and I did not know how to handle that.  I was so used to reading independently from a very early age that I got caught flatfooted when they couldn't.  I was reading to them, but not as often as I should have and because my eldest seemed to hate listening to books on tape (undiagnosed low processing speed and difficulty with word retrieval) I didn't have her do much of that.  They were both very bright, articulate children with an advanced vocabulary all the way through kindergarten.  But over time they did not advance nearly as quickly as their peers who were reading lots of books on their own.  Having that control to just grab books that interest you really inspired me to read a LOT.  And rereading books really helped reinforce the depth of the stories, the vocabulary, etc.  My kids didn't have that.  

 

And because the school was pushing Accelerated Reader and DD especially was struggling to pass the tests, we read very simple books together and rarely read a book twice.  There wasn't time.  Besides trying to read enough books to pass Accelerated Reader tests, I was having to reteach every subject once she came home from school.  There was no free reading time, even if she could have read books at her age level.  And she has suffered for it.  In 7th grade now she is missing vocabulary and concepts that her peers are not.  We are working to fix that now, but we lost years before we finally understood what the issues were, pulled them out of school and started not only remediation for their reading issues but also more exposure to books.  And the kids pick books that I read with them all the time now, not just books I have assigned them.   Hopefully, as their reading abilities improve, they will choose to read more and more on their own and gain enjoyment from that.   I think it is very important to inspire a love of just the pure pleasure of reading and the desire for exposure to literature, not just reading for any specific educational agenda.  (but I do hope to provide as much in the way of hands on learning as I can, too...).

 

Very interesting thread, Hunter...

[stm4him]

For Latin I chose a program which asks so little (one page per day) and since we homeschool year round there should be time to finish without pressure. Sometimes my kids would do one page and sometimes they would enjoy themselves and keep going. My grade level lists are a basic guide so I would not mind if something took longer than planned. Hake would definitely take priority.

One idea for inspiring reading is to hand them those catalogs we drool over and let them pick what interests them, one book at a time. If the library doesn't carry it then it can be shipped to them. Whatever books that are not keepers can be sold at a used book store. Maybe getting them involved in the buying and selling part of it will help them own it. Letting them choose from quality selections when they are young is important. I have often been disappointed in the library selection. The bookstore is very inspiring though.

[Lolly]

I mostly read while in school. I turned out all right.  Well, my first grade year I read library books, went through the SRA box, and dusted the classroom. My second grade year I spent helping out in the first grade room I had been in the year before and reading. After that, I pretty much just read in class. But, I was doing all that reading because I already knew everything that was being taught or caught onto it really fast by just looking at the directions/text. Oh yeah, I only read fiction books. You get an amazing amount of subject knowledge from fiction books. They are usually researched quite well. 
 
I am actually trying this almost all reading this semester with my ds16. Not so sure how it is going. He has never liked to read. I am wondering if watching documentaries would work best with him. It seems to be his best learning mode.

[Soror]

I think some children take longer to be ready to transition from stories to non-fiction. And some people never totally enjoy non-fiction. Have your tried the books like Burgess Bird books and other narratives?

Which science topics were you covering. Some young students are fine with living science, but not ready for the physical sciences.

Sometimes a reluctant student will sit through 5-10 minutes of content, if you promise that content will be in the upcoming story. For example a little bit about beans or plants, before reading Jack and the Beanstock. Or a bit about Hares vs Rabbits before reading the Hare and Tortoise.

I find most children are fascinated with insects. And magnets. And monkeys. And Parrots. I don't think we need to worry about content checklists until late middle school.

Well, he loves some non-fiction.  He really doesn't care for Burgess and the like. He does like narratives though, he devoured Hawking's Secret Key books. He reads any science magazine I bring around, even when it has been a bit over him. He likes books like Basher's (although I find those annoying). He really enjoyed the Kid's Book of Weatherforecasting and I've thought I should buy more in the Kid's Can Series.  Mostly he enjoys studying about science that moves and makes things go, engineering type things. We did tons of nature study when he was younger but he is ready for something else. We did McHenry's Elements and it was a huge hit but otherwise it has been pretty hands-on- programming, robotics, electricity etc and laid back- stacks of library books and science docos and shows. I've considered buying the Sassafras Kids  books just for him to read. 

 

I've had a really hard time with history. He loves mythology and hero stories, he's read the Greek and Norse mythology books multiple times.  He loved Sheinkin's Bomb- I'm totally buying his other history books next year. He likes that style, entertaining and fun. He reads some on History magazines as well, like the Kid's Discover. This is where I really stink in finding the right books. 

[Hunter]

Well, he loves some non-fiction. He really doesn't care for Burgess and the like. He does like narratives though, he devoured Hawking's Secret Key books. He reads any science magazine I bring around, even when it has been a bit over him. He likes books like Basher's (although I find those annoying). He really enjoyed the Kid's Book of Weatherforecasting and I've thought I should buy more in the Kid's Can Series. Mostly he enjoys studying about science that moves and makes things go, engineering type things. We did tons of nature study when he was younger but he is ready for something else. We did McHenry's Elements and it was a huge hit but otherwise it has been pretty hands-on- programming, robotics, electricity etc and laid back- stacks of library books and science docos and shows. I've considered buying the Sassafras Kids books just for him to read.

I've had a really hard time with history. He loves mythology and hero stories, he's read the Greek and Norse mythology books multiple times. He loved Sheinkin's Bomb- I'm totally buying his other history books next year. He likes that style, entertaining and fun. He reads some on History magazines as well, like the Kid's Discover. This is where I really stink in finding the right books.

You ladies are funny sometimes. I'd call that a child who likes to read and a mom who was successful at supplying books he liked. :lol:

[Hunter]

It sounds like there were quite a few of us that "just read". It's great to hear other people's stories.

[Arcadia]

Ds does read voraciously but when I tried to make his science and history just assigned reading it seemed I sucked the joy out of it a bit.

My 9 year old does not like assigned reading. He wants to be the one choosing. I just tell him which topic and he picks the books off the library shelves.
For example we are doing geologic time now for science. He can just pick any books on that for enrichment. Same when we covered World War II for history, he picks his readings.

[Soror]

You ladies are funny sometimes. I'd call that a child who likes to read and a mom who was successful at supplying books he liked. :lol:

LOL, well we read and did a lot of science this year, although it was a hodge podge. History was a lot more spotty. He loved all the "You Wouldn't Be" books, he read nearly the whole collection in the library. At times I feel like we are really nailing it and then I feel we are lacking. I don't know it ebbs and flows. He's been immersed in various fantasy books right now, mostly good books and a fair amount of classics but fiction for the most part. I have a harder time with history personally, science is just easier for me to do so I keep thinking I need some kind of plan but I never follow the plan! It needs to be basic but interesting and varied!

 

He hasn't liked a lot of the non-fiction listed on classical sites, not enough action or interest for him. 

 

My 9 year old does not like assigned reading. He wants to be the one choosing. I just tell him which topic and he picks the books off the library shelves.
For example we are doing geologic time now for science. He can just pick any books on that for enrichment. Same when we covered World War II for history, he picks his readings.

This works well when we make it to the library but that doesn't always happen. How do you work that without going to the library often? Also, our library has a spotty selection of history especially so often I have to request books, so yet again his reading goes from this to that when we go to the library then we study a little bit of a very wide variety.  Last year I tried just buying a bunch of books so we would have them on hand to make up for this but then he didn't like a fair amount of them and then we really liked some we found at the library but they weren't necessarily on the same topic.

 

Maybe I'll have better luck this year seeing more of what he was drawn to this year.  Maybe I could have him help me pick on Amazon, he loves shopping Amazon. I've also thought about just keeping various subscriptions around, since that works well. It gives him non-fiction info in shorter blurbs and would probably help build him up towards books maybe. 

 

Just thinking out loud, when I have the right books and audios I cannot stop him from reading and he is nearly always reading something. 

[Arcadia]

This works well when we make it to the library but that doesn't always happen. How do you work that without going to the library often?

We go to the library at least once a week. Does your library have an OverDrive subscription? We use OverDrive on our tablets or laptops to read our libraries ebooks when the weather is bad or we run out of books before the next trip to the library. We just login to the service using our library card number.

You can check which libraries near you have OverDrive subscription by zip code here https://search.overdrive.com/

ETA:
There are lots of non-fiction scientific magazines in the adult section of the libraries. He read Sky & Telescope, Scientific American, Astronomy magazine and some of the articles in Popular Mechanics.

[Hunter]

It's definitely easier to stay well stocked with fiction.

 

I have some Yesterday's Classics and YR Heritage History, and all sorts of other eBooks. Paperback fiction just falls into my path if I'm willing to bother to cart it home and store it.

 

I wonder if sometimes we are making this harder than it is. And worse yet, accomplishing less, with all the extra time and money spent.

[stm4him]

Regarding curriculum or book buying?

[Hunter]

Regarding curriculum or book buying?

 

All of it.

 

When Robinson's wife died, he set the kids up with desks in his office. He kept his babies WITH him, right there. He placed them in math books they could READ and taught them to READ the books. When they got stuck on math he taught them how to READ the book BETTER instead of giving them the answer. Math wasn't just math. It was also reading comprehension.

 

Then he had them write. His wife taught the olders some LA before she died and he admits the youngers struggle more with spelling and punctuation. I think Hake or the Amish CGE workbooks would be better than just writing. He also gave a lot of feedback to his children, that some of us are not able to give our students, because of our own weaknesses.

 

Then they read. We've all seen the booklist. It is NOT anything special. It's just what his wife had collected little by little. Many of us here are reporting a similar spotty, fiction-heavy reading list. I don't think it matters what books are read, really, within reason. I'm not talking about a steady diet of vampire romances, though.

 

I just think we are overcomplicating this. Homeschoolers now are spending so much more time and money, and in general are wealthier and better educated than the Y2K oldschoolers, but results are NOT improving.

 

I didn't even know who Robinson was the year I basically did Robinson with my younger, and it was the year of his highest test results. We has so little I didn't care if he spent most of the day on a LONG Saxon lesson. He spent LONG hours listening to the KJV Bible on audio tape and either reading along or coloring while he listened. Then he wrote 2 paragraphs about the Bible reading. And then he read some books.

 

Then I started trying to do better. I got online at the library, and finally I got online at home. "Better" means less time just reading, and I'm not so sure that IS better.

[Hunter]

Just a couple weeks ago, I found out I can ask my library to buy eBooks and audiobooks though Overdrive. I asked for 2 books and received download links in 2 days. 

 

The ladies at AO talk about some great "living" and popular culture science and history books that are on the overdrive lists that can be requested. Most people can get a free card from their capital city, even if their local small library doesn't have overdrive, or only a few books.

[smfmommy]

I never worried about covering specific topics or times of history. I just insist they read a certain amount of time on non fiction. Eldest spent a lot of time in ancient Egypt and colonial America before finally branching out to other time periods. She now knows way more about British queens and ancient mythologies than I was ever taught (let alone remember).  Some non fiction topics were inspired by things mentioned in her fiction books. Yes, she has holes. Her science knowledge is basic, but she has enough to function in life and has no plans for a stem career.  My second child has read tons in science and her history will be basic, but that's ok, she is a different person.

 

I read extensively as a child but predominantly science fiction. My vocabulary was good and my reading speed and comprehension made test taking easier although I wish I had been inspired to read more broadly.

[Soror]

All of it.

 

When Robinson's wife died, he set the kids up with desks in his office. He kept his babies WITH him, right there. He placed them in math books they could READ and taught them to READ the books. When they got stuck on math he taught them how to READ the book BETTER instead of giving them the answer. Math wasn't just math. It was also reading comprehension.

 

Then he had them write. His wife taught the olders some LA before she died and he admits the youngers struggle more with spelling and punctuation. I think Hake or the Amish CGE workbooks would be better than just writing. He also gave a lot of feedback to his children, that some of us are not able to give our students, because of our own weaknesses.

 

Then they read. We've all seen the booklist. It is NOT anything special. It's just what his wife had collected little by little. Many of us here are reporting a similar spotty, fiction-heavy reading list. I don't think it matters what books are read, really, within reason. I'm not talking about a steady diet of vampire romances, though.

 

I just think we are overcomplicating this. Homeschoolers now are spending so much more time and money, and in general are wealthier and better educated than the Y2K oldschoolers, but results are NOT improving.

 

I didn't even know who Robinson was the year I basically did Robinson with my younger, and it was the year of his highest test results. We has so little I didn't care if he spent most of the day on a LONG Saxon lesson. He spent LONG hours listening to the KJV Bible on audio tape and either reading along or coloring while he listened. Then he wrote 2 paragraphs about the Bible reading. And then he read some books.

 

Then I started trying to do better. I got online at the library, and finally I got online at home. "Better" means less time just reading, and I'm not so sure that IS better.

I think that approach could be great for some, depending on your goals but wretched for others. Some parts appeal to me but others, not so much. This approach would not work well with my ADHD son and would erase the benefits of schooling such a child. 

 

I think it is damaging to assume however that all the best things have already been discovered and any change is detrimental. There are positives and negatives to most things, the internet has effected the hs'ing movement for good and bad. Personally, I'm really thankful for the internet for the knowledge that kids like my son exist and I can help him thrive. I only really knew about "in the box" learning and my son just doesn't fit. There have been so many resources I've found that we've enjoyed because of the internet. Sometimes it leads me towards too much comparison and worry. Sometimes it leads me to spend too much time planning and not enough schooling but overall I believe it has been positive.

 

Thanks for the thread though, it has been a positive. I'm planning next year and trying to evaluate what has worked and what hasn't and see how we can make next year better. It really makes me think about teaching the child I have and instead of what looking at what we should do look at what works. We don't have to read just CM sorts of booklists that he finds torturous!

 

Arcadia thanks for the link, my library does participate. I need to remember to check there for books.

[smfmommy]

I think what Hunter is trying to get at is that sometimes we try and make our schooling "better" by adding all sorts of extras instead of focusing on doing a few things really well.  Obviously, one size doesn't fit everyone, but giving a child time and space to really enjoy reading (not analyzing every book or dictating every title) is an important part of a well educated person.  To me it is similar to not overscheduling a child so much that they never have time to explore their world on their terms.  We all need space and time to contemplate on the things we have been learning/experiencing.

 

Not every subject has to be covered every day or even every year.  A year (or more) of deep reading and contemplating may accomplish more than all the fancy curricula on the market.  The difference is between what the child is doing for himself versus what is being done to the child with the curricula. (Not to say that any individual piece of curricula can't be exactly what a child needs, but that we tend to put more trust in the curricula than the child.)

 

Not sure if I am clarifying or muddling...

[Hunter]

Soror, I'm not saying the old ways were always superior. I'm just saying they weren't always inferior. And they were usually cheaper and easier. And therefore that cheaper and easier is not always inferior.

And I'm just kinda thinking aloud.

I agree that just reading for some children isn't a good fit. But...are we as a whole using it enough?

[Soror]

I actually think the just reading part is good for my son, my trouble is finding the titles that work for him. The classics good and great lists are wonderful for the fiction recs but the non-fiction choices often don't work at all. So, that is not actually the part I disagree with, it is more how the math is taught and the push for independence. In my my own hs we we spend a large amount of time just reading. Mostly we hit the basics with good solid curricula that work for my kids and then read, past that we have forays into various projects at times, time spent enjoying the great outdoors, educational shows and lots of discussions and play. We certainly don't disect every book and are really not overscheduled at all. 

 

I completely agree that in some areas there is just more money spent for nothing, in regards to content specifically - history, science and lit. We've never used a curriculum for lit and rarely used one for history and science. I think in the elementary grades especially that just reading is grand but sometimes the guidance is nice and some like following a plan. I actually have wished I could find something for history or science that worked but I've yet to find any one things that works long term so we hit it in a mishmash of various ways as our interests and time allows. As I said though that leads to ups and down periods (tidal wave schooling as I think someone coined the term!) so when we're in a lower period I feel we're not doing enough.

 

Fwiw on the topic of reading I've always thought our first year was our best. We sat down every day with a tall stack of wonderful books and read and read. Then we would sing and play/walk/explore outside. We played some games for math and then we would practice writing, first outside with chalk or sticks in the dirt and then when he was ready with HWoT. However, more children were added and then even the basics become more complex as they age.  So, I do understand the allure of just reading but to what extent and as to how to make it work isn't always as easy as I'd like. I find myself adding and subtracting over the year.

 

 

 

[Hunter]

I've been thinking that whispersync sets of books like Napoleon's Buttons and other books like this, will increase spoken science vocabulary, as well as reading and writing.

http://www.amazon.com/Napoleons-Buttons-Penny-Couteur-ebook/dp/B001NQGN24/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=&qid=

 

I'm going to start asking my library to buy these sets.

 

I asked them to buy the audio to Science Matters. I have that as a paperback.

[Luanne]

I wish I would have had more access to books when I was a child. I could only take two a week during the school year out from our school library and there weren't that many books in the library. During the summer I didn't get to read at all. My mother didn't see the value in taking four children to the library all the time. I did try to catch the bookmobile from time to time though. I have made sure my daughter has had access to as many books as she has wanted from a very young age.

[Hunter]

I never had enough books to satisfy me as a child, but I think that helped me as much as it hindered me. It forced me to read much wider than I would of. I read just about EVERY book I had access to.