CW vs. CAP vs. WWE/WWS vs. WS--what's your favorite?

[Amy M]

Can someone list pros and cons of these programs, whichever they've tried? We're using WWE2 right now, and I envision eventually using WWS in the logic stage, maybe with some sentence composing. But CW looks incredible whenever I look at it, especially their scope and sequence. I've heard some say it's not very teacher-friendly, though. CAP seems to get glowing reviews, but they only have a few levels out right now. I have Writing Strands 3 & 4, but no one seems thrilled with it. I'm just curious for reviews. This would be for a year from now, but I'd have to order in the fall-ish.

[Snickerdoodle]

Lewelma did a huge thread about this where she evaluated lots of programs.   It's worth a read. 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/348864-my-evaluation-of-numerous-writing-curricula/

[ByGrace3]

We only have experience with WWE and CAP. I like WWE, really I do. But it was not a good fit for my dd. We did wwe1 and up to week 20 of 2 and finally waved the white flag. We finished last year and fall of this year using brave writer. We then began fable in January. It is going really really well.

 

My ds is using wwe1 and will continue with WWE2 next year. I think wwe is perfect beginning writing for a kid that responds to it. Now whether we will do wwe 3 and then move him to CAP or switch to CAP after WWE 2 will depend on him. There is a good bit involved in cap, and I like that my dd is writing her own stuff instead of me scribing for her...

 

I always thought we would move to WWS when it was time, but CAP is going so well if it continues, I doubt we will fix what isn't broken...

[Halcyon]

We used WWE 1-3 with older and then moved to WWS1. We are taking a little break to focus on sentence structure and style using Hake Writing. I thought we would resume with WWS2, but I haven't looked at (I do own it) so I am not sure.

 

With younger, we used WWE1-4 (most of 4) but he is 8 so too young to move to WWS. We tried Bravewriter but I wasn't good about implementing it. We did  some Unjournaling, Story Starters and other things for a bit. We just started CAP and so far, so good. We've only done it for a week so I can't tell you how it will go long-term, but so far, we are both really liking it. 

 

In the end, I don't think CAP will be released quickly enough for my older, so we'll likely stick with the plan of WWS2 in September. With younger, we are going to continue with CAP1 into CAP2--I think we'll be finished with both before summer as he is moving quickly through them. My strong guess is he won't love WWS. Not only won't he love it, I am not sure it's a fit for him. So we may just continue with CAP. Again, though, we JUST started CAP, so I need to give it a couple of months before I decide if it's a fun diversion for now, or a curriculum we are willing to commit to long-term. 

ETA: We tried WS, it was not a fit for us at all. 

[My3girls]

We have used WWE2 and WWS1. I was leaning toward adding in CW starting in 3rd for my youngers, but have been swayed by CAP WR because of ease and the creative aspect. We will continue with WWE3, just using the teacher text, as well, though. I think it will help with their science and history narrations. Dd12 will continue with WWS doing Kilgallon (sp?) orally over the summer and some journaling. She is, also, using Beyond the Book Report, but that is more of a literary analysis curriculum than strictly composition.

 

Good luck with your decision!

[Soror]

We've used WWE 1, 2, and about 2/3rds of 3 so far. We have done Bk. 1 and 2 of W&R. WWE is very incremental and parts to whole. In WWE anyway there is little explicit instructions on the sentences themselves but good writing is to be learned by reading good literature. In W&R it is more whole to parts, has a lot more creativity, discussion and works explicitly on sentence work. WWE is harder in a way because the passages are more difficult and there is less handholding for narrations but W&R is challenging because it expects a lot more writing, they build up to written narrations but also start working on writing their own (at least in the first 2 books- I'm sure this will increase as the program goes a long) pieces as well as writing beginnings, middles and ends of given pieces. There is a lot more variety in W&R which is more engaging but lessons times can vary greatly, WWE follows a really predictable pattern.

[Kathryn]

Listening. We will start WWE4 in a few months and then the plan was to move to CW for a year before WWS (if we went that way). But, now I'm looking at CAP W&R and drooling...

[sbgrace]

My boys liked WWE. We completed levels 1 and 2 and began 3 before I purchased CAP. I think I like the summary approach we used in WWE better than the CAP summary method. I suspect, though, this is just because we're used to what we did in WWE and so didn't need the more involved process taught in CAP. Generally, CAP writing has a much broader skill and instruction set than WWE, and I really appreciate that it allows for original composition. It's so interesting, and we've loved it.

 

We completed Most Wonderful Writing Lessons (fantastic, explicit instruction for great narrative writing), then went back to CAP. What we've learned through that book is making the CAP written production much better quality.  It's a great combination.

 

I originally planned to do WWS. At this point though, based only on the reading I've done, I think WWS would likely be an intolerably bad fit for one of mine. If CAP continues production and we keep loving it, I think we'll stick with it instead. I may change my mind on that!

[serendipitous journey]

We are using WWE and CW/Aesop this year.  I've been tempted to switch to CAP's program, but decided to stay with CW because I really appreciate the complexity and richness of the models (there are often a few words A. doesn't know, for example); because the program exists through high school so we can move as fast (or slow, of course) as needed; because folks who stay the course through Diogenes seem to fervently believe it was worth the effort; and finally because I'm very committed to a strong element of classical culture in our homeschool (that is, ancient Greek and Roman "classical" and not just 4-year-cycle "classical") and this is an excellent way to extend our Classics studies beyond our ancient history studies. 

 

WWE I'm keeping because I see carryover in handwriting and general writing, it provides some reading comprehension exercises which we otherwise do little of, and it introduces us to books A. might like to read in their entirety. 

 

A. likes neither program, but the child doesn't "like" much about school so that's not a deal-breaker here.  He tolerates them well and seems to be benefiting.  A. is accelerated generally and I am happy to be interleaving the programs so we can move at his pace without zooming through one of the programs.  We plan to start Homer & WWE4 in fourth grade -- Homer may be at a gentle pace or otherwise adapted, though I hope we can pretty much do it as written.  It's entirely possible we'll jettison WWE4 if the dictations are truly onerous ... only time will tell. 

[SorrelZG]

I have only worked with WWE1&2 and CW Aesop (text). WWE has been short and effective at building up the skills it is working on. Aesop we've used sporadically and I love the flexibility of it. One thing I knew would be an issue for me as I previewed CAP is the prepared lesson format (although I DO love the workbooks for WWE - go figure). Aesop only works here because I can tailor it according to skill level each time we use it. I have had Aesop in my possession for quite some time and become very familiar with it but at first it WAS intimidating .. Not at all since I got well acquainted with it, though. I'll take next year to get familiar with Homer and decide if I want to continue with it.

[aelllc]

I have used CW Aesop and WWE. I also own CW Homer and both levels of Diogenes.  Having drooled over many other Classical programs,  I keep coming back to CW  as I appreciate how it incorporates grammar and literature into the instruction.  As you go further along Modern writing is also incorporated.  CW moves very incrementally, yet is extremely thorough.  The student books make CW usable.

 

I looked at CC by Memoria Press and I just did not like all of the terminology and it seemed a bit too thorough.  I think my students would rebel at rewriting their work that many times in a week.   The DVD's are tempting though.

 

CAP writing seems like a fun and gentle introduction, yet in my opinion it moves too quickly at a book per semester for students to fully delve into each level of progymnasmata.  CAP definitely looks to be the most student oriented of all the classical writing programs I have seen though.  It might be best to get a very reluctant and unenthused writer motivated.

 

WWS is very tempting, but I personally would rather my students developed their sentence structure before jumping into the more research based college writing that WWS has.  We will be saving WWS for late junior high or early high school and continuing with CW at this time (Unless I cannot resist the temptation of jumping ship and delving into yet another writing program!)

 

 

[Amy M]

There is so much helpful feedback here.

 

I am beginning to understand that, though compliant, ds1 is what people call a "reluctant" writer. At least at this point, about to turn 7. Maybe all boys that age are? Yesterday we were talking about what subjects he liked in school. He said he didn't like history which totally surprised me, but then he said it was because he had to write in it. (I just started making him write a bit more this year for his SOTW narrations. We don't use the WWE2 workbook, just the instructor's text right now, writing across the curriculum.) I realized that he enjoys history, but not all the handwriting.

 

I would like to continue using WTM style writing across the curriculum with another curriculum, maybe at a gentler pace.

 

I also don't see a big creative side to ds1 or 2. Is CAP so creative that it would frustrate a just-tell-me-how-to-do-it person?

 

What exactly don't people like about Writing Strands?

 

Again, CW really looks amazing, but I have a lot of little ones. Is there a "fog" period for the teacher? does it take a lot of time?

 

Are any of these companies Christian?

 

Thanks!

[Amy M]

I have used CW Aesop and WWE. I also own CW Homer and both levels of Diogenes. Having drooled over many other Classical programs, I keep coming back to CW as I appreciate how it incorporates grammar and literature into the instruction. As you go further along Modern writing is also incorporated. CW moves very incrementally, yet is extremely thorough. The student books make CW usable.

Do I need another grammar program with it? Do I have to use the one they recommend with Homer? I like R&S... And how much lit is incorporated? I had wanted to link our literature and history studies; will this still work with that?

[Mom28kds]

What is CAP?

[5LittleMonkeys]

  It's entirely possible we'll jettison WWE4 if the dictations are truly onerous ... only time will tell. 

 

If you feel your dc are still benefiting from the summary work, don't toss the program due to the difficult dictations.  Use the dictations (at least some of them) as paraphrasing practice.  I did that with my older two and I believe that it really helped them in taking notes from lectures.  

[sbgrace]

There is so much helpful feedback here.

 

I am beginning to understand that, though compliant, ds1 is what people call a "reluctant" writer. At least at this point, about to turn 7. Maybe all boys that age are? Yesterday we were talking about what subjects he liked in school. He said he didn't like history which totally surprised me, but then he said it was because he had to write in it. (I just started making him write a bit more this year for his SOTW narrations. We don't use the WWE2 workbook, just the instructor's text right now, writing across the curriculum.) I realized that he enjoys history, but not all the handwriting.

 

I would like to continue using WTM style writing across the curriculum with another curriculum, maybe at a gentler pace.

 

I also don't see a big creative side to ds1 or 2. Is CAP so creative that it would frustrate a just-tell-me-how-to-do-it person?

 

What exactly don't people like about Writing Strands?

 

Again, CW really looks amazing, but I have a lot of little ones. Is there a "fog" period for the teacher? does it take a lot of time?

 

Are any of these companies Christian?

 

Thanks!

Amy, is it possibly the physical act of writing he's hating. Neither of mine had much tolerance for that at 7. I wrote down what they said aloud to me at that age. I still do that sometimes actually, because I will get "more" from one of mine when I take the handwritten part out.

 

I've got a creative, make up a story type and one who is more a math and tell me what to write about type. Both are enjoying CAP. It's a guided/imitation type creativity in writing. You might retell a summarized fable with more detail and embellishment. You might read an existing fable and then use it's ideas to make one of your own (replacing the mouse and cheese with another animal and food for example). It's not an assigned topic for creative writing type program.

 

The CAP do bible programs too, and the publisher has a seminary degree. I don't think of it as a Christian program in content, though I think it does include some bible content in the literature selections. Here is a thread. The OP is looking for secular actually, but people discuss Christian content anyway in context of both CAP and CW. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/485898-secular-progym-curriculum/ It might be a helpful thread for you otherwise, and I'm gathering from it that CW is a Christian company as well.

 

What is CAP?

https://store-op7rth6.mybigcommerce.com/writing-rhetoric-book-1-fable-program/ I purchased my book  from Amazon to get free shipping.

[serendipitous journey]

To the OP, CW and CAP are both from companies with a Christian worldview.  So is IEW, which might be worth looking into for your child -- a year of IEW in 2nd, 3rd or 4th I think could pay huge dividends.  The children basic outlining and get writing. 

 

I do not like the somewhat-stilted format of IEW myself, though if you stay the course the children will move out of that phase, but I found our time with it invaluable, mainly for the TWSS DVD instruction that helped me become a better teacher.  IEW is very aware of little-boy issues and talks about how to encourage them.  One marvelous tip was to allow them to do their draft work in pen, which is much easier to write with, and then do the final in pencil so that mistakes can be corrected easily.  This has been so beneficial for A.!

 

I also think you could easily apply your IEW experience to the other littles.  CW is quite parent-intensive, and so it may not be your best choice -- one of the authors has 4 children and she taught them, so that's doable, but more than that might be overwhelming.  There is a forum at CW on which you could post questions RE using CW while teaching many children. 

 

And IEW does have some worldview-specific programs, which can be an advantage if you have the same worldview. 

 

 

If you feel your dc are still benefiting from the summary work, don't toss the program due to the difficult dictations.  Use the dictations (at least some of them) as paraphrasing practice.  I did that with my older two and I believe that it really helped them in taking notes from lectures.  

 

Thank you for this encouragement!  I really really plan and hope to stay the course, but know many folks don't and want to be humble about what we are planning.  However, if you found that it really paid off we can surely stick with it -- knowing that there is a point will keep us focused. 
 

[aelllc]

I use R&S Grammar along with CW.  The grammar in CW I use as reinforcement.  CW applies what you learn in  R&S to real literature.  Whenever I feel they have had enough of that grammatical concept, I simply skip the grammar assignment in CW.

[boscopup]

I use bits and pieces of everything, though I don't have CW or WS. CAP has been fine for my not-very-creative-boy. He's also a reluctant writer. IEW helped get past some of the reluctance, so he does write now.

[Amy M]

Just FYI, I'm not against using a secular program, but if all things were completely equal, a Christian program would be an extra plus.

[Syllieann]

To the OP, CW and CAP are both from companies with a Protestant worldview. So is IEW, which might be worth looking into for your child -- a year of IEW in 2nd, 3rd or 4th I think could pay huge dividends. The children basic outlining and get writing.

Snip

 

Pudewa is not Protestant. I only have 1 of the Christian theme books, but I am fairly certain they would most likely be classified as mere Christianity.

[serendipitous journey]

Pudewa is not Protestant. I only have 1 of the Christian theme books, but I am fairly certain they would most likely be classified as mere Christianity.

 

Thank you for that gentle correction!  I apologize for the error and will edit the post. 

[Amy M]

Does anyone NOT find CW hard to teach?

 

Does anyone LIKE Writing Strands?

[TeaCookiesBears]

Does anyone NOT find CW hard to teach?

 

Does anyone LIKE Writing Strands?

ETA: Sorry, I did not see the NOT. I found the first two levels hard to teach at first but as one poster suggested all you need to do is go over it thoroughly sometime before teaching it and one should be fine. It really was not hard to teach once I read it over for a few weeks.

 

Not sure about writing strands as I only had dd do two assignments before switching to apologia Jump-In. I never gave it a chance so I can not say if I like or dislike it.

 

 

Now I am doing a combination of WWS and CW with older dd and WWE with dd8.

[Narrow Gate Academy]

Again, CW really looks amazing, but I have a lot of little ones. Is there a "fog" period for the teacher? does it take a lot of time?

 

We've only used CW here.  This year I have one in Herodotus, one in Diogenes Maxim, and one in Aesop.  To teach CW, I recommend spending a few hours over the summer looking over the core books to become familiar with the layout and get a general idea of the goals for the year.  Aesop is not time intensive.  We spend 10 to 15 minutes 4 days a week.  Starting at the Homer level, the time required is closer to 45 minutes to an hour 4 days a week, but only 10 to 15 minutes of that generally requires one on one teaching.  This contines to be the case for the Diogenes level as well.  Once at Herodotus, the student schedule is set up to having one teacher meeting per week to preview the material, and then the student works mostly independently although there are occasional lessons that call for discussion with the instructor. 

 

I have used CW Aesop and WWE. I also own CW Homer and both levels of Diogenes. Having drooled over many other Classical programs, I keep coming back to CW as I appreciate how it incorporates grammar and literature into the instruction. As you go further along Modern writing is also incorporated. CW moves very incrementally, yet is extremely thorough. The student books make CW usable.

 

Do I need another grammar program with it? Do I have to use the one they recommend with Homer? I like R&S... And how much lit is incorporated? I had wanted to link our literature and history studies; will this still work with that?

I don't use their recommended grammar program.  We've been using R&S instead.  Once in a while, we encounter a new grammar concept in CW before R&S, but I've found that the examples in CW are done well enough that I can cover the material after looking through them. 

 

For literature, they have a list of suggested books that correspond to the models on their website.  I decided to keep our literature separate, and we haven't had a problem.

 

Does anyone NOT find CW hard to teach?

 

I don't find it difficult to teach.  The core books are well laid out, and the student books provide a schedule of assignments if you want that.

 

HTH  Feel free to pm me if you have any other questions.

[Amy M]

I am really struggling to decide between CAP and CW. Has anyone tried to use both? :) For example, use Aesop A for one semester and CAP Fable for the next, maybe in 3rd grade, or switch every other week? Then Aesop B and CAP Narrative 1 for 4th grade? Is that overkill on the fables? If you do use both, which would you start with? That'd probably get pretty expensive for just 3rd-4th grade, too...

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

We used WWE, and I think it's a perfect intro for 1st and second grade.  By the end of this year, my son was a little tired of the routine of WWE.  Surprisingly, he liked the formulaic paragraphs of Shurley better.  I came across CAP, and we read the sample, and he was giddy in excitement.  I feel it has the meatiness with the creative spark.  I wouldn't say it's do-as-you-please creative, but it's not so rote that you only do dictation or narration.  It has that in it, but you also get to rewrite a fable with your own characters, for example.  My son loves doing that.  It's done in an engaging way that's not so rote, if that makes sense.  CW looks dry to me.  If things go well with CAP, I think we will continue it, but I still plan to start WWE in 1st grade.  CAP is for 3rd and up.

[Clear Creek]

I am really struggling to decide between CAP and CW. Has anyone tried to use both? :) For example, use Aesop A for one semester and CAP Fable for the next, maybe in 3rd grade, or switch every other week? Then Aesop B and CAP Narrative 1 for 4th grade? Is that overkill on the fables? If you do use both, which would you start with? That'd probably get pretty expensive for just 3rd-4th grade, too...

 

I have used both, though not concurrently. I wrote about it in this post. FWIW, I do think it would be overkill at the Fable level to use both.

[Roadrunner]

WWE wasn't a good fit for my kids. I often wonder if it's aimed at a reluctant writer who is strong in language arts otherwise. Neither of my boys are reluctant writers. WWE didn't have much writing for them. We still worked through WWE 2 with my younger son, hoping to shore up his reading comprehension. He struggled. Some of the passages are very hard for 7 year olds. I have WWE 3 on my shelf, and I might use it sparingly with my younger DS for reading comp once more, but not for writing. 

My older boy did CAP and loved it. We write a ton in addition to CAP, but this program is the only structured writing, unless you consider MCT Paragraph Town structured. I am adding WWS 1 this year for his writing lineup. We will see how it goes. :) 

His younger brother is thriving in CAP Fable, and we plan to stay the course. 

[jenslp]

Does anyone NOT find CW hard to teach?

 

Does anyone LIKE Writing Strands?

 

I don't find CW hard to teach at all so far, but I'm just beginning.  I think people say it gets easier so if that's true then I'm thrilled because it's quite easy so far.  When I first received the materials and just flipped through them I thought it was going to be very confusing and difficult and way too time intensive.  But I finally sat down and actually read through it and it just all clicked.  

 

One thing I find so easy about it and that my son and I both love, is that they provide a schedule/plan that is basically the same each week.  It does take more time than if I could just hand him a workbook to complete totally on his own, but it definitely doesn't take as much time as I thought it was going to when I first bought it.  All I have to do is listen to my son read the passage and discuss it with him, then listen to his oral narration and check that his outline is good on one day; then on another day I highlight some words in the passage for him to use for word study and check over his written narration; then another day I check his final draft that he types on his own and there is of course grammar work which doesn't take long for me to check either.  On another day I choose part of the passage for dictation.  For us, the fact that there is a set routine we can follow makes it easy. 

[Kathie in VA]

Does anyone NOT find CW hard to teach?

 

Does anyone LIKE Writing Strands?

I don't find CW hard to teach. I've taught Aesop, Homer, & Diogenes levels n had on ds sort of go thru Herodotus in a coop. I've taught homer n maxim in a coop. The uppers levels are a lot of work but you are covering a lot of material. So I don't think of it as writing but as writing n grammar or logic n some intro to rhetoric.

[Amy M]

Which writing program is most teacher-intensive: CAP, CW, or WWS? Which will be most difficult for me to teach with 4 kids close together? I feel like I need to know where I'm headed so I can stick with a writing program instead of switching back and forth.

[Amy M]

I feel so lost with writing, and I think it's so important. I really want my kids to have much better instruction than I received, and I want to learn myself. Would it be beneficial to put myself through WWS1? Or should I rather invest in things like TWJ from BW or IEW's TWSS? I already bought D'Angelo's Composition book and Horner's Rhetoric text.