having Grandpa declared incompetent, are there ramifications?

[Hen]

I posted elsewhere about grandpa having alzheimer's and questions we had about getting him on medicaid, we (my sister and I) were planning on talking to a lawyer this week to help us apply for medicaid, but we were waiting till we could talk to grandma on Wed and make sure we had accurate info on their finances and assets.  Things seem to be spiraling out of our control, the police had to be a called out two days ago because grandpa was getting threatening with grandma.  Spoke to his Dr. today and they have a spot to see him tomorrow (Grandpa should be willing to see him because he has a hearing with the DMV next month to try to get his driver's license back and needs a letter from his Dr. saying he is competent)...nurse said that the Dr. might declare him incompetent tomorrow at the appointment. 

 

-I am wondering if there are things that need to be done first like do we need to get a power of attorney first? He would likely be willing to sign one giving power to his wife.

 

-will their finances seamlessly go into his wife's control?

 

-will this cause problems applying for medicaid, or will it maybe help?

 

the appointment is at 2, I can call it off if need be so we can go see a lawyer first, but our gut-feeling is that having the Dr. do this tomorrow might be the easiest and best way to do this, it does have to be done, just not sure if we should delay.  I thought we'd have to have a court hearing, but the nurse said not if the Dr. does this.

 

thanks, any advice, been-there-done-this?

 

[Χά�ων]

You shouldn't need a lawyer to get him on Medicaid. You need a social worker. Talk to his doctor about getting the resources to help you help him.

 

Medicaid is income based, talk to the local social service office or a social worker. Ask the doctor's office for a referral to a nursing home or assisted living place to see if you can use their social worker. Many places have someone to help you. If he is married you cannot just transfer assets to the spouse and not have them count. The system doesn't work that way, I'm sorry. Income information for his state should be available online. What about Medicare? His age should qualify him if nothing else. Look and see if his state has a senior services branch under social services. Those are the people you will need to talk to. He will qualify but they will have to pay a spend down. For example if he can only have $1,000 a month in income and assets to qualify but brings home $1,200 a month in SSDI then he will have to pay $200 a month to "spend down" to qualify for Medicaid.

 

I would encourage you to help him set up POA and an advance directive or living will ASAP. And look at long term options. Alzheimer's runs in my family and both of the men affected ended up getting violent and where more than the family could handle and had to go into a nursing home. I am not saying this is what will happen, but many facilities will not take males with Alzheimer's because they tend to be more violent so it would be important that you all have a long term plan if he gets to be too much for family to care for. 

 

A few other things to look into:

In home therapy services

In home nursing

Assistive technology IE GPS enabled tracking device link into a 24/7 call center to handle EMS in case he wanders even if he has never wandered.

Support and counseling for family care givers.

 

In many states there are programs where you can be paid to provide in home care for a family member. My great aunt did this for my great-grandmother in Texas.

 

 

I wish you the best of luck. HUGS

 

[zoobie]

If he's declared incompetent the day he signs a POA, it's not going to stand up should anyone challenge it. An elder care attorney can advise you better regarding the legality of this.

[MyThreeSons]

In many states there are programs where you can be paid to provide in home care for a family member. My great aunt did this for my great-grandmother in Texas.

Do you know what this type of program is called? I thought that I had heard about someone doing this around here, but when I tried to research it, I couldn't find anything. Perhaps the name of the program will help.

[Orthodox6]

In the middle of all this, although much further along the road than OP is.  I shall disagree, with respect, with an earlier poster.  An eldercare attorney is essential because of the myriad legal matters.  Social workers lack the fine-detail knowledge for this; they can be immensely helpful for other areas. 

 

I can't tell whether "Grandpa" refers to your grandfather, or to your father (whom your family would call "Grandpa").  If you are talking about your own father, then your mother would be the "first-in-line" with authority for exercising:  "Medical Power of Attorney", and  "Durable Power of Attorney" (this is for business matters other than medical).  Your parents will decide whom else they wish to be listed with authority on these documents, and in what order.  (My brother precedes me, for example -- unless he is unable to act, in which case I may act -- and under my brother's circumstances, this means that I act at all times.)  Medicare typically precedes application for Medicaid, unless their financial resources already are virtually non-existent.  Again, an eldercare attorney is needed to navigate all of this.  Get solid referrals so that you can avoid the many unscrupulous sharks out there, who are trying to peddle financial products for their own advantage, which are not always for your relatives' advantage.

 

Definitely set up an Advanced Directive.  If he (or his wife) wish for a DNR ("Do Not Resuscitate") order to be in place, this must be done in addition to the Advanced Directive.  The one does not presume the other.  (We learned that the hard way.)

 

Should his health condition warrant placing him in a residential facility, exercise the maximum degree possible of caution, and trust nobody.  Do what you must, but never forget that you must be involved heavily and stay on top of his care in all areas.  Try to win the trust of the residence staff, and you will accomplish more than if you are brusque and dictatorial.  Nonetheless, when you need to stand firm and not back down, do so because it is the right thing to do.  I am being honest because I am appalled by the eldercare industry in this country, and by what my mother has experienced.  My life is 100% devoted to caring for my 90-year-old mother (with Alzheimer's that is very far along) in a nursing home, for my 91-year-old, frail father (who lives with us), as well as 100% devoted to the rest of my family tasks (homeschooling, parenting, etc.  I also am about to become a grandmother and must be available to help as they -- son and d-i-l -- still are in college).

 

Very, very best wishes to OP.  I'm sorry this is falling upon your family with such severity.   

 

 

[Orthodox6]

Do you know what this type of program is called? I thought that I had heard about someone doing this around here, but when I tried to research it, I couldn't find anything. Perhaps the name of the program will help.

 

I live in Texas.  It was not legally possible for us to obtain any funding for us to care for my father in our home because I -- the person home most of the time -- am not a doctor or a nurse. 

 

The exception could have been if my father were on Medicaid.  (He does not yet qualify for that; only for Medicare.)  See this article:

http://www.caring.com/articles/payment-for-family-caregiver

Maybe the "Cash and Counseling" program discussed in the article exists in your state.

[Χά�ων]

Do you know what this type of program is called? I thought that I had heard about someone doing this around here, but when I tried to research it, I couldn't find anything. Perhaps the name of the program will help.

No. I do not know the name of the program. I will say that the name of the program may very by state.

[texasmama]

Google medical power of attorney and general durable power of attorney. You need both. A doctor cannot declare anyone incompetent. This is a legal determination backed by medical professionals. If Grandpa is too incompetent to sign the two above documents, you can look onto getting guardianship through the court. This takes some time and can cost several thousand dollars. Medicaid is just an application to fill out. If he us on Medicare, this will be primary and Medicaid will be secondary, picking up what Medicare does not cover.

 

(Caveat: not an attorney here, just a family member of someone with Alzheimer's and another elderly relative. Dh and I have General durable power of attorney for both relatives, as well as medical POA. We are also on both relatives' accounts - bank, brokerage, etc. in TX, a medical POA needs two unrelated witnesses. The General Durable POA needs a notary signature. It is for all purposes except for medical and ceases to have authority once a person is deceased. )

[Orthodox6]

Google medical power of attorney and general durable power of attorney. You need both. A doctor cannot declare anyone incompetent. This is a legal determination backed by medical professionals. If Grandpa is too incompetent to sign the two above documents, you can look onto getting guardianship through the court. This takes some time and can cost several thousand dollars. Medicaid is just an application to fill out. If he us on Medicare, this will be primary and Medicaid will be secondary, picking up what Medicare does not cover.

 

(Caveat: not an attorney here, just a family member of someone with Alzheimer's and another elderly relative. Dh and I have General durable power of attorney for both relatives, as well as medical POA. We are also on both relatives' accounts - bank, brokerage, etc. in TX, a medical POA needs two unrelated witnesses. The General Durable POA needs a notary signature. It is for all purposes except for medical and ceases to have authority once a person is deceased. )

 

Texasmama, I am puzzled.  "A doctor cannot declare anyone incompetent." 

 

Just this past month, Medicare demanded that we provide a letter from my mother's primary care physician documenting and declaring that she is incompetent.  We had no problem with Medicare until they figured out -- (and don't start me on how incompetent Medicare staff are!) -- that my mother moved cross-state (here in Texas) to be where I live.  

 

Also, please excuse a modification of your information.  Medicaid is not part of Medicare.  What picks up some (not all, but often a lot of it) of the expenses not covered by Medicare (Basic) is called "Medicare Supplemental Insurance."  There are assorted packages of this.  I believe October is the month when Medicare enrollees select coverage, or make changes to their existing Medicare coverage. 

 

[texasmama]

Texasmama, I am puzzled. "A doctor cannot declare anyone incompetent."

 

Just this past month, Medicare demanded that we provide a letter from my mother's primary care physician documenting and declaring that she is incompetent. We had no problem with Medicare until they figured out -- (and don't start me on how incompetent Medicare staff are!) -- that my mother moved cross-state (here in Texas) to be where I live.

 

Also, please excuse a modification of your information. Medicaid is not part of Medicare. What picks up some (not all, but often a lot of it) of the expenses not covered by Medicare (Basic) is called "Medicare Supplemental Insurance." There are assorted packages of this. I believe October is the month when Medicare enrollees select coverage, or make changes to their existing Medicare coverage.

 

No, I did not say that Medicaid is part of Medicare. If an elderly person is also indigent, they may qualify for both.

 

And for the purposes of obtaining control of someone's finances, no, a doctor's declaration without the legal piece completed is not sufficient, according to my information.

 

Typing on my phone so I should probably keep this short. Didn't mean to be unclear.

[zoobie]

If you're looking to have someone legally declared incompetent, a judge makes that legal determination. Part of the evidence would be a doctor's or doctors' testimony as to their expert medical opinion of the person's competence. A doctor can sign a form declaring someone is medically incompetent, but this is not the same thing as having a judge declare someone legally incompetent. Different situations require one or the other--another reason an elder care attorney is essential.

[Hen]

thanks everyone, Orthodox- he is my grandfather, not my father.  My mother died last year suddenly and my uncle is a dead-beat, so all of this is falling to my sister and I. 

 

He does have medicare, but we went through an ordeal this Summer with Grandma falling and ran into limits of how long she could stay in a residential home- I am reading that medicare won't pay for grandpa's long-term alzheimer's care when he needs to be institutionalized, it it looks like when, not if unless something drastically changes in his brain and he becomes docile and nice.  I don't know if they qualify, I can't figure out the income levels.  They live on social security and a small pension he has.    Through everything with my grandma's ordeal, we found the social workers (3) to be of no help.  My uncle called out Adult protective services this week and they were also of no help.

 

I am not necessarily looking for an attorney, but for at least a medicaid specialist to help us apply because frankly, trying to understand all this is confusing me and I am worried we might make a mistake applying.  I've found two so far, one happens to be an elder care attorney, they both give free consultations, I'm thinking I will ask about competency at the consultation.

 

It is very clear to everyone within 1 minute of conversation that my grandfather is not "all there" he doesn't remember two of his children and doesn't really know who my sister and I are even though we were with him daily while grandma was in hospital/nursing home and we are there a few times a week now.  He is lucid in some things though, one of those is his control on money, he doles out all money and grandmother has never had much say, and yet, he pays things twice sometimes, he keeps almost falling prey to scammers, he buys expensive vitamins off the t.v. etc.  He can't remember how to use the coffee maker, he won't bathe, he gets lost walking places, he gets food out and loses it in the house.  And yet, he remembered today that the hearing-aid place owed him a refund and saw it wasn't on his bank statement and he remembers that the DMV took his license and he has a hearing next month.  He says he has never been sick but doesn't remember that he had prostate cancer ten years ago.  He was scary livid about the DMV thing and went to yell at the Dr. about it, whom he vowed he had not seen in 5 years, so how could the Dr. tell the DMV he is not safe to drive?  Sister reminds him we were at the Dr. office 3 weeks ago because grandpa wanted to see about "memory pills" that would be cheaper then the ones on t.v.  He insists no, he wasn't here...sister tells him to take the pill bottle out of his pocket and see the dr.'s name and the date of 3 weeks ago on it...he does not remember and insists we are wrong.

 

we have medical power of attorney already for both grandparents, but not the regular financial one.  Looks like we are going to call off the Dr. for tomorrow and get the power of attorney done and notorized.  He was willing to do the medical and I think he will do the regular one as long as it is contingent on not taking effect unless he is "incapacitated".  I am just worried that the day could come soon, when we have to put the control of their finances on grandma, and yeah, I was guessing that the Dr.'s finding wouldn't be enough for the bank. 

 

I knew that eventually we might deal with these things with our parents, but my grandparents have thrust all this on us early.  I live over an hour away and live in a small house with 3 bedrooms and 6 people, my sister has 3 bedrooms and 5 people.  I just don't know what we are going to do. He has also been mildly sexually innapropriate with both my sister and I while we were caring for him, so we can't have him around our kids.   Grandma wanted to keep grandpa home with her as long as possible, but with him getting out of control with the yelling and starting to get physical, it looks like it might all be taken out of our hands.  Dead-beat uncle has been at their mobile home a week and half now (because he was living in his trailer at a camping place and the heat was getting to him so the air conditioned parents place suddenly seemed good) and he is intervening when grandpa gets out of control, but he also called the police once already.  He seems to think that if they take grandpa away that "somebody" or the State will pay for grandpa to be "put away" we are trying to show him that this is not true, at least right now with only medicare.

 

thanks for the suggestions and links, the hive's wisdom is helpful in pointing me to where to look,

 

thank you :)

[Orthodox6]

My muddle, Texasmama. I was sensing the thought that a physician may not declare incompetence with validity. I did not see your tie-in to the seeking of financial control. It did, however, sound in the post as if you might not have been aware of Medicare Supplemental Insurance. Yes, of course, both Medicare and Medicaid can aid the same individual. This is so complicated, this caring for parents!

[Amy in NH]

Respite care.

[Melissa in Australia]

Do you know what this type of program is called? I thought that I had heard about someone doing this around here, but when I tried to research it, I couldn't find anything. Perhaps the name of the program will help.

Here in Australia it is called Home and Community Care. It includes various services including personal care - hygiene, showering, cooking and taking shopping - housecleaning- monitoring that they are eating-  as well as respite care to give full time careers a break.

 

I use to do this for work.

[Melissa in Australia]

The doctor might be able to advise you on exactly where to go for assistance. Here the local hospital administers the service, but I know other areas it is administered by private agencies, or even Shire Counsels. Whatever agencies was providing the care, just about all the patients' families were made aware of the service by medical practitioners, as you  needed medical certificates etc to be eligible.

[Pawz4me]

I am SO sorry you're going through this.  Caregiving for someone with Alzheimers is incredibly difficult.

 

Regarding the durable POA -- A lot depends on how your grandparents' finances are set up, and on state law.  If all of their bank and investments accounts are held jointly (joint tenants) and it's a community property state (which affects their home and any other real property), then your grandmother already has full control of everything.  While a durable POA is still helpful in that situation, and it would be good to get one in you and/or your sister's name(s) anyway, it's not such an emergency.  We went through a similar situation with my mom recently, who was critically injured and eventually died from an automobile accident.  My brother and I didn't have POA, but because our names were on all her bank accounts as joint tenants we had full access to her funds to pay bills and make the financial decisions that needed to be made.

 

Ditto whoever recommended getting the advice of an elder care attorney.

[Lanny]

This is a horrible, but very common situation. BTDT.  It depends upon what state you are in, how this is going to work.  My mother was in California, so I have direct experience there. Since I live in South America, there were many reasons I could not be in charge of her. The wife of one of my cousins took over. I went to California and we went to a Family Practice (?) Attorney. We applied for a Trust (?) giving my cousins wife authority to make medical decisions for my mother, handle her finances, etc. Several months later, before the case was going to come  up in court, my mother passed away. At that time, it evolved into an Estate situation, and as I recall, the same papers we had begun with the Attorney took care of that and I appointed my cousins wife to be the executor and paid her for her time and work.

 

Probably your grandfather needs to be placed, now, in some kind of assisted living or convelescent care situation. He is a danger to your grandmother, and if you or your sister take him into your home, he will be a danger to your family. To say nothing of the danger to himself. He needs to be somewhere where the staff has training and experience in caring for Alzheimers patients, now...

 

In her last months, my mother was diagnosed with Alzheimers. Sometimes she was lucid and intelligent, and other times, out of it.

 

I wish you much good luck.

 

ETA: He is not competent to sign any papers now. Anything he signs now, will be questioned, because of his mental state. Probably anything he would sign now would not be legal.   Others must take over and take care of him, with the legal authority to do so...

[mumto2]

Two of my friends have gotten some extremely helpful advice from the local senior center when they were facing similar situations. Obviously not legal advice but they did tell them of elder services in their area and the legal requirements typical to their state. Might be a good place to gather some info if there is one to call in your grandparent's area.

[G5052]

I've been there too with a parent.  And unfortunately the person who ultimately handled all of it did *not* consult an attorney, and the estate is a mess two years later because of that with no resolution in sight.  Even if you get advice from the doctor, banks, etc., I'd consult an attorney at some point just to cross-check what is done.  There can even be very difficult tax implications for both your grandparents and you if it isn't done properly.  Anyone who is placed on accounts needs to know what the legal and tax implications are for them personally too.

 

And as hard as it is, placement may be the best choice too.  My parent assaulted multiple people and tried many times on others (including myself) before being placed, and still was very hard on the facility personnel.  They needed people who dealt with that kind of thing on an ongoing basis 24/7.

[Lanny]

OP: Follow on: The FIRST thing you need to get is an Attorney, who has experience with this type of family situation. You or your sister need to have legal authority over your grandfather. Possibly, your grandmother can be the one with the authority to make decisions for your grandfather. That will depend upon whether or not she is willing and able to be the person making very difficult decisions for your grandfather.

[Luckymama]

Consult an elder care attorney, but please make sure you choose one who has been specializing in this area for a while! Dh (a CFP) has a client who chose an elder care attorney from the say-so of one friend. This attorney has only been doing elder care for less than a year, though she's been practicing for a very long time. Dh's client is now in the middle of a huge mess, while worrying about his wife's care.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

You mention that your grandfather is violent and exhibiting other inappropriate behaviors.  My FIL has dementia (Korsakoff's syndrome from alcohol abuse) and went through a period of escalating violence and inappropriate behaviors shortly after he moved into an assisted living facility.  He had to be hospitalized at John Hopkins in Baltimore for a couple of weeks, taken off all his meds and then given new medications that helped him greatly.  He no longer displays the behaviors and is more normal than ever and has returned to the assisted-living facility.

 

John Hopkins has a Memory Disorders Centerr that specializes in this area.  Maybe someone in the medical community can point you to a similar resource nearby.  

 

Hugs,

K

[G5052]

Consult an elder care attorney, but please make sure you choose one who has been specializing in this area for a while! Dh (a CFP) has a client who chose an elder care attorney from the say-so of one friend. This attorney has only been doing elder care for less than a year, though she's been practicing for a very long time. Dh's client is now in the middle of a huge mess, while worrying about his wife's care.

 

Yes, there are elder care attorneys and then there are elder care attorneys.  The one I hired was superb.  Elder care was 2/3 of her business with the other 1/3 adoption issues, which is of course similar in some ways.  She is the former chair of the state lawyer's association on elder care, and had been practicing with that focus for 15 years.  And her husband is an assistant district attorney, and between the two of them they know all of the judges and law clerks in the area.  She went to school with my parent's attorney, and there were several times that we resolved issues with phone calls between them.

 

When we hit walls because my parent chose someone incompetent to run their affairs, the attorney exhausted every possible avenue.  When she said, "I can't do anything else.  I'd just be taking your money without anything in return," I believed her.  And her advice was always confirmed by my local attorney and ultimately the CPA I consulted.

 

At least making contact with an attorney (most will do a 30-minute free phone consult) might be in order.  There are some things that are difficult or impossible to undo later.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

oh yea it is a tough situation....dh and I look after his dad and are in similar situation.....definately not easy....get all the help you can,believe me,it does take it's toll on you and relationships....good luck....hope you get some answers and some directions in which steps you should take next...

[Twinmom]

If your Grandpa needs long term care in a nursing home, has little resources and has Medicare, he may qualify for "nursing home Medicaid." I have a BIL in this situation. He has a mental illness and is on disability. A nursing home took him as "Medicaid pending" and helped us through the process of applying for and receiving nursing home Medicaid, which then picked up backdated medical bills not covered by Medicare. He is also required to pay in most of his disability check, which we obtained control over by having a doctor at the home declare him incompetent to manage his finances. Social Security then designated my husband as his Representative Payee, required us to set up a trust account called a Qualified Income Trust (as his SSDI check was slightly over the limit to obtain nursing home Medicaid) into which his check was directed deposited and through which we pay the nursing home. All expenses so far has been covered through this process.

 

Prior to his entry into the nursing home, we set up a Durable POA, a Medical POA and an Advanced Directive. I got the forms from a legal site and had him sign them in front of a notary and witnesses. This definitely helped the process...especially having them done before he was declared unable to manage his money. Copies of the POA are now on file with Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, giving me the right to manage his accounts without any hassle. He is advanced enough in his mental illness to now have a major issue with anyone helping him manage money, which is always a problem because he is not yet able to fully be declared incompetent. However, no govt. agency has yet to question the documents and he does not have the wherewithal to go through the process of revoking them, so I think we are good for now.

 

HTH in some way. I'd definitely get those POAs ASAP before you get him declared incompetent. It will help a lot.

[Orthodox6]

I would like to extend some of Twinmom's helpful post, with regard to Medicaid in a nursing home.  We have recent knowledge for our state.  As with many areas, state-by-state variations may apply.

 

Here (Texas), nursing homes do not always have "Medicaid beds".  Those which do, have only a limited number.  Find out in advance.  Nursing homes are "for profit" companies -- never forget this.  Medicaid does not net the nursing homes desirable profits, so the beds will be limited in number. 

 

The waiting list can be up to three years to secure a Medicaid bed.  The waiting list is "sorted" to work against newcomers.  If a person already lives in the nursing home as a "private pay" resident, that person rises to the high end of the waiting list.  If someone calls in from outside, seeking a Medicaid bed, that person sinks immediately to the bottom of the waiting list.  

 

If Medicaid is in the forecast for your relative, start immediately to make arrangements, keeping in mind the waiting list time (forecast with no genuine accuracy) for each target nursing home.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

If your Grandpa needs long term care in a nursing home, has little resources and has Medicare, he may qualify for "nursing home Medicaid." I have a BIL in this situation. He has a mental illness and is on disability. A nursing home took him as "Medicaid pending" and helped us through the process of applying for and receiving nursing home Medicaid, which then picked up backdated medical bills not covered by Medicare. He is also required to pay in most of his disability check, which we obtained control over by having a doctor at the home declare him incompetent to manage his finances. Social Security then designated my husband as his Representative Payee, required us to set up a trust account called a Qualified Income Trust (as his SSDI check was slightly over the limit to obtain nursing home Medicaid) into which his check was directed deposited and through which we pay the nursing home. All expenses so far has been covered through this process.

Prior to his entry into the nursing home, we set up a Durable POA, a Medical POA and an Advanced Directive. I got the forms from a legal site and had him sign them in front of a notary and witnesses. This definitely helped the process...especially having them done before he was declared unable to manage his money. Copies of the POA are now on file with Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, giving me the right to manage his accounts without any hassle. He is advanced enough in his mental illness to now have a major issue with anyone helping him manage money, which is always a problem because he is not yet able to fully be declared incompetent. However, no govt. agency has yet to question the documents and he does not have the wherewithal to go through the process of revoking them, so I think we are good for now.

HTH in some way. I'd definitely get those POAs ASAP before you get him declared incompetent. It will help a lot.

 

[texasmama]

My muddle, Texasmama. I was sensing the thought that a physician may not declare incompetence with validity. I did not see your tie-in to the seeking of financial control. It did, however, sound in the post as if you might not have been aware of Medicare Supplemental Insurance. Yes, of course, both Medicare and Medicaid can aid the same individual. This is so complicated, this caring for parents!

I understand.  I was typing on my phone, which causes me to be unnecessarily brief and unclear at times.  I should save the complex topics for the keyboard.  :)

[Hen]

thanks everyone, you are giving me a lot to think about and some things to ask the lawyer.  We and they are in California, and I believe my grandmother is on everything jointly, but I will be checking on this on Wed. to be sure.  He has always treated her so badly that I wouldn't be surprised if he put some things in his name only, I think the credit card is only in his name.  There is no estate to worry about, all they have, I am pretty sure is their SS payments, a small pension and they own their mobile home, which they bought 10 years ago for $20,000 and it's pretty old.  We anticipate that the State will take everything after they both pass, to pay for Grandpa's care, and we have no quibble with this, so we are not worried about protecting an estate or anything, we just want to make sure he can go to a home when he needs to and that grandma will still have some income if he is in a home.

 

good point about waiting lists, I will start calling around, never thought about that. 

 

I anticipate him getting violent but so far it has been more tantrums and hitting walls...which sadly, is nothing new his whole life. He has always been an angry, yelling man who controlled his family by outbursts of anger/violence but didn't usually actually touch them because the threats and displays were enough to get what he wanted and to cow everyone.  It is only different now in that he cannot be reasoned with or placated and he hit grandma once on the arm that we know for sure, the other two instances my uncle reported and my uncle is a liar and manipulative so I am not sure how much is truth, he has an alterior motive of wanted grandpa gone, he stated the day grandma fell and was in hospital that he wanted grandpa out and committed somewhere.

 

a mess, I know.  I think so far the plan is to get our ducks in a row with a durable POA, applying for medicaid, talking to a lawyer all for the moments the stuff hits the fan and it all spins out of control...which could look like GP getting clearly violent and arrested, or wandering off somewhere and being picked up in the middle of the street by police.  So far, Uncle is staying to make sure GM is safe, we really have no way at the moment to house them separate.  If Uncle decides to leave, then we will have to change plans and find a place for GM.

 

so that's the game plan so far, anything more just makes my head spin, gives me too much worry and takes away from my family.

 

thank you for all the help and suggestions :)