"Quiverfull" questions...

[Peek a Boo]

not the Justice Dispensing Machine.

 

LOL!

[Janna]

Here's the one small thing I take comfort in: there are biblical instances of people "talking back" to God and living. Abraham argues with God about the fate of Sodom. Moses refuses God's offer to destroy Israel and make a new Moses-nation. Ezekiel tells God that the little living sermon God has planned for him is too much for him to bear (God asks him to roast his food on a fire made of humanure). And God relents in all these cases.

 

I think there is room for people to tell God, "Yes, you're right. But I'm too weak for that yet." That's what the Ezekiel case was about, anyway. God is Father and Mother, not the Justice Dispensing Machine.

 

Absolutely I agree that there are people who have "talked back" to God and lived. I'm one of them, too. Seriously.

 

But.

 

In the examples you listed, I would just gently argue that they weren't saying "it's too hard. I can't handle it yet." Even in the Ezekiel example. They were, in my mind, arguing with God over issues that were against the heart of God. It's hard to put that into words correctly, because if it's against the heart of God, than how could God suggest the things he did, right? But life is precious. We were made to be God's companions. So it's understandable (and right) that Abraham would argue for the lives of those in Sodom. But even still, he was "negotiating" the righteous. God knew there were none except Lot. Moses was able to argue with God because he was holding God to his promise. He was in essence saying, "You can't destroy the Israelites! Remember that little covenant you made with Abraham way back when?" And Ezekiel argued about defiling himself - something that was very much against God's laws at the time.

 

My point is that God throws those things out there to see where our hearts lie in relation to him. For that is all he really wants. It is what we were created for and His desire for our hearts to be molded to be like him has never and will never, change.

 

The issue with that you said, Aubrey, and what PariSarah honed in on, is exactly the issue. God wants to know He has your heart. Apparently this is the way He knows will determine whether or not He has it. I can tell you that I could not more fully relate to your feelings, because I am in the exact same position.

 

Dh and I never used bc in the traditional sense, BUT we became convicted almost simultaneously that the mere fact that we were abstaining during the middle of the month, was indeed bc. Were we going to trust God? At the same time this happened, we had been convicted to begin praying together daily. Up to that point, we had had a strained relationship...fighting a lot...because we never ceased control about anything to the Lord. So after beginning to pray nightly together, out loud, things have changed. Oh my goodness, things have changed. My dh's heart has changed towards me, my heart has changed towards him, and he has finally taken the role of provider, protector and spiritual head of our home. This began in July of '07 (both the praying and the releasing of "bc" to God). In Sept. we found out I was pg (we have a will-be-10yo by the time the baby is born, girl, and a 6 yr. old boy). It has been very hard for me. For one because I struggle with PPD and I keep saying to God, "You know I struggle with this! Why are you giving it to me again?" But also, it's been hard because it comes down to the fact that I'm selfish. All of my time will be devoted to an infant again, just when I was feeling like I had some time in the day to breath for myself, you know? But my dh...he's been fantastic about it since the day we found out (which was on our 11th anniversary). His trust is solely in the Lord about this.

 

The other thing, that is much fresher, is that recently (last month), we were both convicted to start giving a true tithe. Up to last month we made our payments (mortgage, insurance gas/electric etc) and what was leftover after all else was taken care of, we gave to the Lord. It was maybe 3% - a joke. So here, we're expecting a baby, where I was already worrying about how our finances would be, and He's telling us to tithe!? We're talking hundreds of dollars a month! We were short $400 in January and $700 this month. But somehow - I honestly have no idea how because there wasn't the classic letter in the mail with money in it - we've been able to tithe, pay our bills and still have money for wants. We weren't even giving into wants before January! But I can't tell you how giving from the top - immediately writing out a tithe before anything else - how hard that was (still is). Ultimately we had to admit to ourselves, "If we can trust God with our salvation - our very lives - can we not trust him with 10% of our money?" In that perspective we feel foolish and we wholeheartedly give.

 

But. God knew that he didn't have our hearts in these two areas. So he's growing us here. No where in scripture does it talk about prosperity (financial or not) being what God wants for us. Except prosperity in knowing him. In fact, the New Testament speaks over and over about how we must run the race and not give up. Perseverance. If God made everything easy for us, why would we ever need to come to Him?

 

I can't answer your question about bc, Aubrey. And people are right - there's going to be answers, even Biblical answers, that will prove both sides. But I do know that no matter what, God wants your heart. So if that means giving up bc for now to do that, then that's what I would do.

 

With much, much understanding,

Janna

[CLHCO]

The part where you speculate if we are preventing people that should be born.

 

I am thinking that birth control does not prevent anyone and here is why. Let's assume that you believe bc to be sin. (I'm not saying I do.) It is not unprecedented for God's will to be brought about through the sin of another. That doesn't mean it's good that we're sinning. God's will can simply use our sin for His will, does that make sense? For example, Joseph's brothers sinned against him when he was sold as a slave. He mentioned that what they meant for evil, God meant for good. Also, Jacob lied and stole his brother's birthright. However, it was God's will for him to have it in the first place. In each case the people sinned but in each case God's will was done. God was thinking generationally. He wanted Jacob to be the patriarch. He needed Joseph in Egypt, which eventually brought the Hebrews there, etc. Even the sin of those who crucified Christ saw His will done despite sin.

 

His will for the future of the human race is not going to be stopped because one person in the line of humans that was supposed to be born did not get born. He knows through time who is to be born and under what circumstances. Otherwise there would be large numbers of people throughout the ages not born who otherwise may have had a million decendents. It expands from there in a way that just hurts my head to think about. If that person isn't born then the child they were to have doesn't get to be born, etc.

 

Sometimes the circumstance is sin but sometimes no one was to be born and sin brought that about.

 

Okay, enough on the idea that it's a sin, since that's not what I believe. Let's assume then that it isn't sin, but instead simply not necessarily His best blessing, which is where I sometimes see myself. Same principle applies. Then we can assume you have prayed and are certain He has led you to your decision to have no others. Well, no conflict there. For what it's worth, that's where I am most of the time.

 

Perhaps the connection breaks down terribly somewhere in my own fuzzy thinking. It's no a clear conviction, it's just an idea that came to me at the moment and perhaps worth a bit more brain work on.

[Aubrey]

For me, the first question to ask is: What does your denomination/tradition/church teach about birth control and family planning?

 

No, our church has no specific teaching on bc. Our background would teach, if anything, that we are to be *responsible stewards* of what God's given us, i.e., use bc.

 

The reason I say this is that the underlying theology is not always as cut-and-dried as "the Bible says so." Although the Bible does not present an unequivocal teaching on birth control, virtually all Christians rejected it until only about a century ago - something that should give us pause.

 

I agree. I once had a friend who said drugs & tobacco were ok because the Bible didn't forbid them! And yes, I realize that it's been less than a century since the church changed it's stance on bc.

 

Much depends on your understanding of Genesis and what is referred to by some as the dominion mandate, as well as other passages of Scripture that speak about conception, childbirth, and infertility. All of this gets into denominational distinctives that I am not competent to sort out and that are probably too controversial to go into on this board in any case. My point is that you will find "biblical" arguments complete with proof texts on all sides of this issue, but rarely will you see all the underlying presuppositions spelled out carefully. If you want a consistent moral understanding, you need to seek out those presuppositions and make sure that the position you and your dh choose is of a piece with the rest of your beliefs.

 

I see the dominion argument. For some reason, I have a hard time w/ that one. Maybe it's just too...confrontational. I don't know. I guess I'm looking at it from a faith & affirmation of life standpoint. I know there are scriptures that can be read both ways, but I find it a little harder to argue the ones that *could* be read in favor of bc.

 

Fwiw, this was one of the major issues for us w/ the Catholic church when our friends converted. At the time, we equated NFP w/ the barrier method because neither *destroyed* life. I could see these being both right or both wrong, but not splitting the issue.

 

Now, though, I feel that NFP is wrong, since Paul says the only legitimate reason for abstinence w/in marriage is for prayer & fasting. That's an oversimplification, but it's essentially how I feel. And, of course, if saying no to life is in itself wrong, then NFP is really no different from other methods in that regard. It seems like the difference between telling two children to sweep the floor. One sits down & refuses while the other makes a bigger mess. Both are wrong. But all of that is IF it's wrong to say no to life, which is my real question at this point.

 

I really appreciate your input, & I hope I haven't offended you, either!

[Aubrey]

I'll just address one part of what you said.

 

 

 

I think you've nailed it here. That's exactly what it comes down to.

 

Like you, I suspect that BC is a way of controlling our lives out of fear that God will not do it right. (Combined with the arrogance that assumes that if a scientist can describe it, we know what's "really" going on.)

 

Yet.

 

I've never been able to embrace in practice what I've already come to believe. And it's utterly and completely a matter of not trusting God. That's absolutely what it is.

 

Here's the one small thing I take comfort in: there are biblical instances of people "talking back" to God and living. Abraham argues with God about the fate of Sodom. Moses refuses God's offer to destroy Israel and make a new Moses-nation. Ezekiel tells God that the little living sermon God has planned for him is too much for him to bear (God asks him to roast his food on a fire made of humanure). And God relents in all these cases.

 

I think there is room for people to tell God, "Yes, you're right. But I'm too weak for that yet." That's what the Ezekiel case was about, anyway. God is Father and Mother, not the Justice Dispensing Machine.

 

There will be people who will use that as an excuse to do whatever they want. But that's not what I'm talking about--I'm talking about faithful, even holy people, who find that one thing God asks of them is just too hard.

 

Oh, thank you! You don't know how encouraging it is to know someone else feels this way!

 

And I'm not worried about God smiting me--He's had much better reasons than this before now, LOL!

 

Recognizing His leading is the first step. IF this is Him, then I have to get to the point of recognizing that so I'll quit arguing THAT point.

 

Then there's the follow-through. When it comes to that, though I feel a little trepidatious (if that's a word), I know that every. other. time. I've followed him, the outcome has been WAY. BETTER. than if I'd done what I wanted. Hands down.

 

And when I think about it like that, I KNOW that IF this is God's call, it's a good one. I just want to be sure it's Him! Haha! But I can already pretty much tell by the way I'm talking and what dh has said that...well...we'll see. LOL

 

Thank you SO much for your honesty! Not that everyone else hasn't been honest; I believe they have. I just think...saying you think this way is a little harder to admit. (Like stinky belly buttons. shhh.):)

[Aubrey]

The part where you speculate if we are preventing people that should be born.

 

I am thinking that birth control does not prevent anyone and here is why. Let's assume that you believe bc to be sin. (I'm not saying I do.) It is not unprecedented for God's will to be brought about through the sin of another. That doesn't mean it's good that we're sinning. God's will can simply use our sin for His will, does that make sense? For example, Joseph's brothers sinned against him when he was sold as a slave. He mentioned that what they meant for evil, God meant for good. Also, Jacob lied and stole his brother's birthright. However, it was God's will for him to have it in the first place. In each case the people sinned but in each case God's will was done. God was thinking generationally. He wanted Jacob to be the patriarch. He needed Joseph in Egypt, which eventually brought the Hebrews there, etc. Even the sin of those who crucified Christ saw His will done despite sin.

 

His will for the future of the human race is not going to be stopped because one person in the line of humans that was supposed to be born did not get born. He knows through time who is to be born and under what circumstances. Otherwise there would be large numbers of people throughout the ages not born who otherwise may have had a million decendents. It expands from there in a way that just hurts my head to think about. If that person isn't born then the child they were to have doesn't get to be born, etc.

 

Sometimes the circumstance is sin but sometimes no one was to be born and sin brought that about.

 

Okay, enough on the idea that it's a sin, since that's not what I believe. Let's assume then that it isn't sin, but instead simply not necessarily His best blessing, which is where I sometimes see myself. Same principle applies. Then we can assume you have prayed and are certain He has led you to your decision to have no others. Well, no conflict there. For what it's worth, that's where I am most of the time.

 

Perhaps the connection breaks down terribly somewhere in my own fuzzy thinking. It's no a clear conviction, it's just an idea that came to me at the moment and perhaps worth a bit more brain work on.

 

The way I've looked at it in the past is this: If God CALLED me to have 12 children (for example), could I obey.

 

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!

 

But at the time, I had 2, & He was calling me to have one more. At the time. THAT I could obey. One at a time, you know?

 

But there's still the piece of me I'm holding back. There's still an area where, if I did hear the Lord's call distinctly, I might go jump in the belly of a whale! LOL

 

I think Parisarah nailed it. It's a heart issue, & that means it's w/ me, not a universal law kind of thing.

[Aubrey]

Being quiverfull doesn't always = 20 kids either. You could leave it up to God and have no more children. You could leave it up to God and have 10 more children. Truely being quiverfull is leaving the #, the timing, thehealth, the financial and all of it up to God. Trust Him to provide all your needs as He sees fit.

 

I know, but that's just the thing. I'm fine with trusting him if his plan is 4-5 dc. Beyond that, I'm not fine w/ trusting.

 

So I guess that's really not trusting at all, is it?

[Aubrey]

Absolutely I agree that there are people who have "talked back" to God and lived. I'm one of them, too. Seriously.

 

But.

 

In the examples you listed, I would just gently argue that they weren't saying "it's too hard. I can't handle it yet." Even in the Ezekiel example. They were, in my mind, arguing with God over issues that were against the heart of God. It's hard to put that into words correctly, because if it's against the heart of God, than how could God suggest the things he did, right? But life is precious. We were made to be God's companions. So it's understandable (and right) that Abraham would argue for the lives of those in Sodom. But even still, he was "negotiating" the righteous. God knew there were none except Lot. Moses was able to argue with God because he was holding God to his promise. He was in essence saying, "You can't destroy the Israelites! Remember that little covenant you made with Abraham way back when?" And Ezekiel argued about defiling himself - something that was very much against God's laws at the time.

 

My point is that God throws those things out there to see where our hearts lie in relation to him. For that is all he really wants. It is what we were created for and His desire for our hearts to be molded to be like him has never and will never, change.

 

The issue with that you said, Aubrey, and what PariSarah honed in on, is exactly the issue. God wants to know He has your heart. Apparently this is the way He knows will determine whether or not He has it. I can tell you that I could not more fully relate to your feelings, because I am in the exact same position.

 

Dh and I never used bc in the traditional sense, BUT we became convicted almost simultaneously that the mere fact that we were abstaining during the middle of the month, was indeed bc. Were we going to trust God? At the same time this happened, we had been convicted to begin praying together daily. Up to that point, we had had a strained relationship...fighting a lot...because we never ceased control about anything to the Lord. So after beginning to pray nightly together, out loud, things have changed. Oh my goodness, things have changed. My dh's heart has changed towards me, my heart has changed towards him, and he has finally taken the role of provider, protector and spiritual head of our home. This began in July of '07 (both the praying and the releasing of "bc" to God). In Sept. we found out I was pg (we have a will-be-10yo by the time the baby is born, girl, and a 6 yr. old boy). It has been very hard for me. For one because I struggle with PPD and I keep saying to God, "You know I struggle with this! Why are you giving it to me again?" But also, it's been hard because it comes down to the fact that I'm selfish. All of my time will be devoted to an infant again, just when I was feeling like I had some time in the day to breath for myself, you know? But my dh...he's been fantastic about it since the day we found out (which was on our 11th anniversary). His trust is solely in the Lord about this.

 

The other thing, that is much fresher, is that recently (last month), we were both convicted to start giving a true tithe. Up to last month we made our payments (mortgage, insurance gas/electric etc) and what was leftover after all else was taken care of, we gave to the Lord. It was maybe 3% - a joke. So here, we're expecting a baby, where I was already worrying about how our finances would be, and He's telling us to tithe!? We're talking hundreds of dollars a month! We were short $400 in January and $700 this month. But somehow - I honestly have no idea how because there wasn't the classic letter in the mail with money in it - we've been able to tithe, pay our bills and still have money for wants. We weren't even giving into wants before January! But I can't tell you how giving from the top - immediately writing out a tithe before anything else - how hard that was (still is). Ultimately we had to admit to ourselves, "If we can trust God with our salvation - our very lives - can we not trust him with 10% of our money?" In that perspective we feel foolish and we wholeheartedly give.

 

But. God knew that he didn't have our hearts in these two areas. So he's growing us here. No where in scripture does it talk about prosperity (financial or not) being what God wants for us. Except prosperity in knowing him. In fact, the New Testament speaks over and over about how we must run the race and not give up. Perseverance. If God made everything easy for us, why would we ever need to come to Him?

 

I can't answer your question about bc, Aubrey. And people are right - there's going to be answers, even Biblical answers, that will prove both sides. But I do know that no matter what, God wants your heart. So if that means giving up bc for now to do that, then that's what I would do.

 

With much, much understanding,

Janna

 

I just wanted to say thanks. Your post was encouraging. I know what you mean--if we can trust him w/ our salvation, what is our $ or our bc?

 

And that's when I realize, I don't *really* trust him w/ even my salvation as much as I think I do. I realize that I see much of that stuff as very abstract most of the time, until it comes & hits me in my personal life.

 

And he does seem to point at things in our lives that he wants, & he's usually gracious enough to do it one thing at a time.

 

It's just...there are other things I'm sure I'd rather give him right now. I've got a lovely pasta set in the trunk of my car, for ex.

[Kendra]

I know, but that's just the thing. I'm fine with trusting him if his plan is 4-5 dc. Beyond that, I'm not fine w/ trusting.

 

So I guess that's really not trusting at all, is it?

 

Funny, in an "I'm human" kinda way ;) And we are. We joke that had we known at the altar that God would give us eight, we would have run from that chapel :D Like you, I couldn't imagine having more than 4. But I didn't have all seven at once, and like you said, they aren't seven under seven. When the seventh was born, the oldest was just turning 14. He does a bunch of computer stuff for me. He mows the lawn (2 acres). He runs laundry. He organizes and teaches the Hands and Hearts projects on Fridays. And that's just him!

 

Both the almost-15yo and almost 13yo are CPR certified. The 13yo is a junior lifeguard. The 10yo absolutely loves sharing a room with the 1yo, and consequently takes care of him a lot. Without me mandating it. The 8yo changes diapers (except the poopy ones ;)) and begs to take the baby from the 10yo. She makes cookies for church. The 6yo empties the dishwasher.

 

So... do you see how different my life is than yours right now? And do you see how raising seven or more can be doable? God will equip you if He blesses you with more, but you are in a very difficult, labor-intensive-for-mom time right now. We know six couples who had vasectomies when the going was tough, and all six have had reversals after four or more years went by because they realized their decisions were made in the toughest time. Sadly, only two have had babies post-reversal and the others are deeply sorry they made a permanent decision.

[wide eyes & laughter]

...some people have, well, made it into a doctrine. (Btw, I did not read any posts except Aubrey's initial post.... I simply can't. The subject matter is hurtful to me, and something I can't understand anyway. So I stay away for the most part.)

 

Human nature is such that we all seem to want a place to "hang our hats". We want it all laid out in front of us, a nicely wrapped pkg; we want the answers. We look for others who have "the answers" and we "congregate" w/them. Kinda like Hans Andersen's fairy tale: The Emperor's New Clothes. We all say that we "see" the same thing, I guess, b/c it's easier that way rather than "going it alone". But faith dictates: walk with Jesus, then you'll know what to do. Turn right? Left? Looking to Him alone, we'll know.

 

Dear Aubrey, if God is calling you away from bc and wanting to open you & your dh to more giftings and, after seeking Him and sort of "wrestling together with the Lord" this is the course you settle on, then blessings. God will also give you all you need care for your young.

 

I once heard someone of this doctrine say, "...a big family is a picture of faith to the world..." No, it's not. It is often a picture of self-righteousness and hurtful ways. And I think this is true of any human made doctrine.

 

We can't understand it all, so we grab hold of certain scriptures and feign understanding, call it a doctrine, voila. The Bible says, "now we know in part, then we shall know in full, as we are fully known" (paraphrase!). We are not meant to know it all.... "All" is to be revealed, one day. Not now.

 

I guess all I'm asking you to consider is: steer clear of the doctrine, draw near to Christ. So He can give you the desires of your heart.

 

Lastly, I do not mean to offend anyone. Somehow I couldn't let this post pass without throwing in my 2 cents. Hits too close to home, since I was leaning toward that camp myself only a few years ago. I still feel the bruise in my heart....

 

Blessings.

[Tap]

We have a son who was conceived on BCP. He is a darling person and I can't imagine that God doesn't have a plan for him.

 

The timing seemed inconvenient and absolutely changed everything I planned for my life. But looking back, we know there was a plan set forth.

 

We had our dd 4 years later and she is blessing too.

 

We had a V and ablation preformed in the next two years and since neither of us could have children again, we figured we were very done.

 

 

 

We are now raising a 15mth old, great niece. If we had a houseful of children we would not have taken her in. She and her mom need a little extra time and I have it to give because of our decisions.

 

We joke that we thought WE were in control of our family number but we were set straight quickly!

 

 

I think that families who limit the number of children they have, are just and biblical in doing so, but (!) those who open themselves up to a "quiverfull" get all those extra blessings as rewards. God will not let a simple thing like birth control stop a pregnacy that he destines! :0)

 

 

If you need a break for a year or two, take one, and know that you will not prevent any little soul that God wants brought to Earth. Just ask my son :)

[Nestof3]

Everyone we meet with in home church is quiverfull. I have read lots of magazine articles and books on the subject, but am just not fully persuaded that God controls the womb (neither is my husband). To me, it is still a natural process just like it is for chickens and cats.

 

What I really don't understand is that they are all comfortable saying it's God's will whether the baby miscarry or be born, but all but one family depend on doctors to deliver "just in case." It seems if it were God's will, th eend result would be his will as well.

 

The other problem I have is that half of these families continue to have more children eventhough they cannot afford the ones they have. Between Medicaid, Famis, and WIC -- it just makes no sense to me to continue to increase the tax burden on others all the while saying "God is providing."

 

I am, despite what I've mentioned, fully supportive of families having many children. I don't think you're crazy for having these questions, but it's really something that will have to come through your husband. Keep praying about it. We are at a point with only three children of feeling that's all we can adequately care for. My husband is also turning 49 this year. We do talk of having another at times as well.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I don't have any answers for you, I just know that I, myself, spend way too much time "in my head" when I'm pregnant. Little things go round and round in my head, and get all blown up into huge issues that wouldn't bother me hardly at all in my non-pregnant state. I'm not saying this isn't a huge issue for you, only that I wouldn't make any permanent decisions about it while you are still pregnant. Enjoy your little ones, and your pregnancy.

[Scarlett]

Wow. I can't believe the traffic on this thread while I've been away all day.

 

I would say to you that if your issues and concerns are what is scriptural and Biblical than you need to research that yourself and see what God Requires of You.

 

No where in scripture do I find a command against preventing conception. So if there is no command against it, and your bc method is not post conception, then it basically boils down to the personal preference of you and your dh. IOW, YOU two have to take responsibility for this decision either way. Sort of like buying a house. No prohibition against buying a house, but you might be sorry if you spend too much and buy too big of a house.

[CLHCO]

The other problem I have is that half of these families continue to have more children eventhough they cannot afford the ones they have. Between Medicaid, Famis, and WIC -- it just makes no sense to me to continue to increase the tax burden on others all the while saying "God is providing."

 

 

It's interesting because my experience is almost the opposite to this. You run with a very different crowd than I do. I was in a home church for a couple years. Not everyone there was a quiverful, including us, though it was encouraged by a few. I've never met even one large family on Medicaid, WIC or otherwise. I know a great deal of very large families too, with anywhere from 10 to 12 children, a few with "only" 6 or 7. My mother comes from a family of 14. Her father was a very strict Hispanic Catholic. He'd die working before letting the government support his family in any way.

 

Often the conviction that leads to the quiverful mindset also carries with it a spiritual commitment that includes other things, such as good stewardship of finances as well as a responsibility and work ethic. I don't doubt this is abused by some but it is certainly not my personal experience.

[mamakven]

Beautifully said! That puts it all into perspective! What a great thread, BTW, and some very thought-provoking replies from believers and non-believers alike! I just love this board for it's wisdom and different points of view...I learn so much:D

 

i'm just popping in here quick, and am only on page 2 of 7!! but i saw this and havince once felt this way myself had to argue against it...

 

SURE we can't prevent God from creating life within us, this is exactly what happened with my #4, there was NO time when we could have concieved her, yet we did. This was the turning point for us when we became QF convicted. because it seems to me that the issue is NOT just in whether a life that was meant to be can be born, but what is our heart in it, kwim? like are we cheerfully obeying or are we rebellious against God. Also it almost seems like testing God to say that if he really wanted us to have a child, he'd work against the birth control. That may be, but that doesn't show a submissive and obedient spirit, and it also doesn't prevent us from the natural consequences that come from being disobedient (like not having that particular child who may have been a huge blessing to us)

 

Now, i'm just offering another perspective, i'm NOT claiming to have all the answers, not by a longshot. We are still searching too. but this is the opinion i'm leaning toward personally. Dh is way more laid back about the whole thing, he can't see why i'm stressing out about it, LOL!! i look forward to reading everyone's discussion PAST page 2 as i get some free time!!

[mom25cuties]

You have a great question and I had once shared the same concern before turning our family size over to Him. I have used bc in the past also. Now in hind sight, I believe that I was not allowing God to control our family size because of man and the world's opinion of how many children were right for us. God only knows that. He knows more about me than I knew of myself which is why he has blessed me to have more dc. I also believe he has a wonderful sense of humor in doing this. LOL I believe that if God wanted us to use bc then He would have said be fruitful and multiply according to your needs but I don't recall that part in the Bible. LOL! We are to be fruitful and multiply and He also said that children are a blessing from the Lord and blessed are they who have a quiverful. How can we withhold God's blessings for us? Why do we want to control His hand or place restrictions on our wombs because of our wills? We are to do according to His will so is controlling your family size in His will? It's a matter of faith. Believe and trust that God knows exactly how many children HE wants to bless you with and He knows what you are capable of handling. Being a mother is a ministry. He will equip and enable you to do that which He has called for you to do.

[Quiver0f10]

I know, but that's just the thing. I'm fine with trusting him if his plan is 4-5 dc. Beyond that, I'm not fine w/ trusting.

 

So I guess that's really not trusting at all, is it?

 

The thing is you don't need to worry about 10-12 kids NOW. Enjoy your pregnancy and worry about the next baby then.

[Aubrey]

Do you believe that leaving it all to G-d is a responsible choice, that you are putting in the effort G-d wants you to to take responsibility for your life, to the best of your understanding and abilities? Do you take that approach with your finances? With your health? (Would it be right to get a flu shot? Would that be interfering with G-d's plan if you are supposed to get the flu, for whatever reason?) With your children's safety? (Leave little ones alone a public park for hours and leave it to G-d to take care of them?)

 

 

I think this is a very good comparison for your situation, since there's so much at risk w/ your pg's.

 

Beyond situations like that, though, I'm not sure it's fair to compare preventing birth to preventing the flu/ abandoning your dc at the park. I see your point, about responsibility, & that is one of the points I'm struggling w/--I guess I'm just disputing the particular comparisons you chose.

 

Which is rather nit-picky of me, except that I can't come up w/ a comparison that works & still supports bc, kwim? Maybe like preventing a marriage between 2 people who are right for ea other, but the timing's wrong? Still, it comes out weird.

 

Do you believe that bc can stop a pregnancy G-d intended? If it can't then how could bc be thwarting G-d's will, or is it matter of the intentions one brings to it?

 

I guess I think it's an obedience thing. I mean, if bc can't stop God, people say, then why not use it? Otoh, if it can't stop God, why use it?

 

It reminds me of people in the Bible who refused to bow to false gods. When I was a kid, I used to think they would have been smarter to just make a show of doing it--I mean, if they're not bowing in their hearts, what difference does it make? That way, they don't get fed to the lions, stuck in the furnace, etc.

 

But it does make a difference, for reasons I still can't completely understand. When I use bc, am I bowing to my own preferences w/ regard to children? And if so, is that a problem? There are some areas that I believe we should pray first & others where we kind-of do what we want unless God intervenes. Getting dressed is the latter; unplugging someone from life support might be an extreme ex. of the former. Which of these is bc?

 

This is a bittersweet discussion for me, I have been being challenged these last several years to trust from the opposite end of the spectrum - another pregnancy could kill me at this point and yet we so desperately long for more children. Kol b'yidei Shamayim (it is all in the hands of Heaven).

 

Thank you so much for sharing. I sincerely hope your longing is fulfilled w/out complication. I'm sorry to be so concerned about my own preferences instead of grateful to have a body & children who allow these questions to be asked.

[Quiver0f10]

Funny, in an "I'm human" kinda way ;) And we are. We joke that had we known at the altar that God would give us eight, we would have run from that chapel :D Like you, I couldn't imagine having more than 4. But I didn't have all seven at once, and like you said, they aren't seven under seven. When the seventh was born, the oldest was just turning 14. He does a bunch of computer stuff for me. He mows the lawn (2 acres). He runs laundry. He organizes and teaches the Hands and Hearts projects on Fridays. And that's just him!

 

Both the almost-15yo and almost 13yo are CPR certified. The 13yo is a junior lifeguard. The 10yo absolutely loves sharing a room with the 1yo, and consequently takes care of him a lot. Without me mandating it. The 8yo changes diapers (except the poopy ones ;)) and begs to take the baby from the 10yo. She makes cookies for church. The 6yo empties the dishwasher.

 

So... do you see how different my life is than yours right now? And do you see how raising seven or more can be doable? God will equip you if He blesses you with more, but you are in a very difficult, labor-intensive-for-mom time right now. We know six couples who had vasectomies when the going was tough, and all six have had reversals after four or more years went by because they realized their decisions were made in the toughest time. Sadly, only two have had babies post-reversal and the others are deeply sorry they made a permanent decision.

 

I remember when I had my 4th and my oldest was 4-1/2 and life was very hectic. You are in a season that is very hard, but it passes so quickly! Like Kenda, my older children are a huge help to me. No, they aren't servants, but we work as a family. I have wondered at times if it was too much for my oldest or too hard on her, but just recently she asked me when we were going to have another baby. She is looking forward to another sibling, so it couldn't have been that bad *grin*

[SnowWhite]

Do we not walk close enough to God for Him to reveal His will to us?

 

I agree with the poster who said that to have unprotected intercourse without protection is expecting God to perform a miracle if it's not His will for us to conceive at that time. I believe conception is a natural law put in place by God. Since I too believe preventing is not prohibited by scripture, I believe God is asking us to walk close enough to Him to hear His voice in determining when and whether to use it.

 

Audrey, if God is speaking to you and your husband and asking you to bear more children, I believe He will give you both the desire and the strength to bear them. If He does not give you that desire, I believe feeling called to bear more children without the desire and strength to bear them must be coming from another source... perhaps your own questioning of your closeness to Him or your own trust in Him.

 

This is not meant to be a slam against those who practice quiverfull lifestyles, but a call to all of us to walk so close to Him that we can feel His hand and hear His voice.

[Staci in MO]

It's apparent that you and your dh are earnestly seeking God's will for your life, and I think it's wonderful how you are so open to His will and trusting Him.

 

As for the pre-existence of souls, there is no Biblical support for this view. In Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology it says:

 

There is one other popular view called Pre-existentianism, namely, that the souls of people exist in heaven long before their bodies are conceived in the wombs of their mothers, and that God then brings the soul to earth to be joined with the baby's body as he or she grows in the womb. But this veiw is not held by either Roman Catholic or Protestant theologians, and is dangerously akin to ideas of reincarnation found in Eastern religions. Moreover, there is no support for this view in Scripture. Before we were conceived in the wombs of our mothers, we simply did not exist. We were not. Of course, God looked forward into the future and knew that we would exist, but that is far removed from saying that we actually did exist at some previous time.

 

I also seem to sense from your posts that you are worried that you will somehow accidentally miss God's will for you life. I don't believe that any Christian who is so sincerely submitting her life to God as you seem to be is ever going to miss God's will. Psalm 37:4, Romans 8:28, Jeremiah 29:13, Proverbs 16:9 are just a few verses that I can find that address that.

 

As to whether God's will can ever be thwarted, I personally believe that all things fall under God's sovereignty. Ephesians 1:11 states that He "works all things according to the counsel of his will." But, since theologians have been debating this idea for centuries, I don't presume to clear up the argument in this post. :) The Old Testament is full of instances where God used all circumstances to accomplish His purposes. Some New Testament verses that allude to this are Acts 4:26-28, Acts 17:26, and Romans 9:19-24. Now, this is just my opinion, but I don't think, based on these Scriptures, that you will be able to prevent the birth of children that God wanted.

 

God bless you and your family.

[Jami]

I also seem to sense from your posts that you are worried that you will somehow accidentally miss God's will for you life. I don't believe that any Christian who is so sincerely submitting her life to God as you seem to be is ever going to miss God's will. Psalm 37:4, Romans 8:28, Jeremiah 29:13, Proverbs 16:9 are just a few verses that I can find that address that.

 

As to whether God's will can ever be thwarted, I personally believe that all things fall under God's sovereignty. Ephesians 1:11 states that He "works all things according to the counsel of his will." But, since theologians have been debating this idea for centuries, I don't presume to clear up the argument in this post. :) The Old Testament is full of instances where God used all circumstances to accomplish His purposes. Some New Testament verses that allude to this are Acts 4:26-28, Acts 17:26, and Romans 9:19-24. Now, this is just my opinion, but I don't think, based on these Scriptures, that you will be able to prevent the birth of children that God wanted.

 

 

 

Excellent post, Staci. As long as a person is not disobeying God's revealed moral will (what the Bible clearly forbids or commands), then all other areas of our life fall under areas of freedom trusting that under his Sovereign will he will accomplish his purposes and His plan will be what *is*. Nothing happens outside of God's plans and purposes, or he would not be God. Decision making areas like where to live, where to attend school, spacing and limiting of children (as long as moral laws against taking a life are not crossed and general "welcoming" of children commands are obeyed) fall under areas where we have freedom. Though there are certainly Biblical principles that we need to bring to bear on making any decision: prayer, seeking wise council from spiritual mentors and those who know us well, considering our gifts and talents and how to best invest those, financial resources (does a man build a house without first considering the cost to make sure he can *finish* the work he begins?).

 

I mentioned it earlier, but Gary Friesen's book, "Decision Making and the Will of God" is the absolute best treatment of this sort of "individual will" that some believe falls between God's moral and sovereign will and I just do not see evidence for it in the Bible.

 

Jami

[6packofun]

so forgive me if I've repeated thoughts or ideas here. :)

 

I think that an important question to ask before subscribing to the Quiverfull lifestyle is, "What about prayer?" and "Do I serve a God who answers my prayers about what concerns me and my family?" "Can God reveal to me the size of our family, either now or down the road, rather than keeping us guessing in order to teach us trust?"

 

Truly, if we believe that God knows how many children we will have, do we believe that He will then keep us waiting without a clear answer about how many that is? Even one at a time as we go?

 

I believe that the true "Quiverfull" mindset is one that does not exclude prayer with the utmost belief that God can and does answer specifically about our family size. What is the difference between 2 couples, both for whom God has planned, say, 8 children and the 2 choices they could make:

 

Couple A decides that rather than (or maybe in addition to?) pray about both their family size AND the timing of children, that they will leave it up to God and be surprised. They won't put their desires into it even though God has made it clear that He cares a great deal about them as long as they are aligned with His will. Do they pray after baby #1 to see if and when God will allow or bless them with another or do they forgeo the expectation that He could and would answer them specifically because the greater lesson for them is trust, one which another couple may not need to learn in this way? And, they end up with 8 babies as God planned beforehand. :)

 

Couple B decides that they also want as many children as God has planned for them, but also know that there is a good chance that in the way God has created a woman's body--and all women differently--that those babies could be spaced very close together. Because they feel God cares for the mom's well-being and ALL of their life circumstances in creating this family, AND they believe that the wife being in optimal health before subsequent pregnancies is a way to honor that desire for more children, care for God's temple (her body) and those future children... AND they believe that God will give them an answer about the perfect, planned size for that family, they choose to use a method of prevention in between pregnancies. And they choose that method prayerfully, open to when it should or should not be used, knowing that God could work around any stubborness or lack of prayer/seeking His will and bless them at any time, too. They pray after each baby and finally feel peace after baby number 8 that their family is complete. 8 babies, just as God planned. :)

 

For me, quiverfull as it is commonly explained, is an all or nothing mindset that cannegate the power of prayer and the many, many examples of God's specific answers AND his care for wives and mothers. It seems to imply that God actually does not have a finite number of children for us, or that timing is the more important issue than number, and that His sovereignty does not work through the natural laws that He lovingly put into place to create life and keep our world together. LOL ;) It also seems to imply that this is the Biblically correct way to grow a family when it really is a personal conviction based on that couple's relationship with God and what He wants to teach them. I'm not saying that anyone here is being judgmental about this, but we all know that certain statements about how WE have chosen to follow the Lord can, by default, sound like a condemnation of any other path.

 

I'm particularly worried about how moms who suffer post-partum depression or other physical ailments or stresses deal with what seems like a choice between the guilt of feeling that they are less than righteous enough or not trusting God enough in the growing of their family if they care about their own health or the timing of children...or the severe health issues they will most likely face if they get pregnant right away after an extremely difficult previous time. If the Bible really supports this quiverfull idea, then it would logically mention any circumstances where it would be OK to give the mother's body a rest (to take care of her body, His temple? to best prepare for another child?). But it doesn't, and so it's all or nothing.

 

The quibble is in the details, don't you think? Is it the TIMING or spacing that you really need to give up to Him? Or is it the daily seeking of His will in expectation that He is sovereign and yet directs us? We cannot thwart His will and yet I believe He can bend it at His delight for OUR cares and desires because He loves us, so long as those desires are not an obstacle to His ultimate will for us.

[Joanne]

Thoughts, opinions and experience relating to the topic in general ratther than the specific post:

 

The community, dogma and rhetoric that I've observed often grows around "quiverful" minded people concerns me. I find a lot of it to be *extra*Biblical, judgemental, lacking reason and common sense. I've also observed in staunchly quiverful families a greater percentage of legalism.

 

I do believe that God can and does individually direct couples to allow conception. I don't believe, however, that God designs each conception (my understanding of God doesn't allow for Him to design crack babies) but I believe God's biology works.

 

I have issues with the quiverful thinking that asserts it's God's Design for everyone. Here's why:

 

1) God has given us natural fertility signals. If He did not intend for us to use them (for conception or avoiding it), it seems to me he could have left cervical mucous and other signs out of His design.

 

2) Quiverful families often adopt "natural" ideas inconsistently. Conception is natural. But close spacing of children due to formula feeding is not. Often the parenting involved in quiverful family hastens conception; that is not accepting God's will; it's the consequence of human design (I'm thinking here of lack of skin to skin contact with breastfeeding and co-sleeping, allowing cue feeding at night, etc).

 

3) We live in a fallen world with monumental consequences. God's biology is compromised by the progressive changes of falling short of the mark.

 

4) We fail, as a culture and even within Christian circles, to teach families how to happily live with children.

 

To the OP:

 

You have several small children and another on the way. Enjoy your family.

[Quiver0f10]

2) Quiverful families often adopt "natural" ideas inconsistently. Conception is natural. But close spacing of children due to formula feeding is not. Often the parenting involved in quiverful family hastens conception; that is not accepting God's will; it's the consequence of human design (I'm thinking here of lack of skin to skin contact with breastfeeding and co-sleeping, allowing cue feeding at night, etc).

 

I am not feeling well and my mind is fuzzy so I apologise if I read this wrong, but are you saying quiverfull families tend to formular feed and thus have babies closer together? Because, I for one, have breastfed all 10 of our babies and most "qf" people I know breastfeed too. We also co-sleep and feed on demand. I personally don't know too many people who choose formular unless it's a medical reason they can't breast feed. I also know many, many qf familes so this statement puzzles me. Again, I apologise if I misread this one.

[Joanne]

I am not feeling well and my mind is fuzzy so I apologise if I read this wrong, but are you saying quiverfull families tend to formular feed and thus have babies closer together? Because, I for one, have breastfed all 10 of our babies and most "qf" people I know breastfeed too. We also co-sleep and feed on demand. I don't know too many people who choose formular unless it's a medical reason they can't breast feed. I also know many, many qf familes so this statement puzzles me. Again, I apologize if I misread this one.

 

I can't say how many formula feed vs. breastfeed. I can say that I have observed a lot of qf families who embrace a qf idealogy but make parenting choices that accelerate fertility. (Both as breastfeeding and formula feeding).

[mamakven]

The thing is you don't need to worry about 10-12 kids NOW. Enjoy your pregnancy and worry about the next baby then.

 

YES!! absolutely!! you have NO idea how much your feelings and circumstances will change as time goes on. I've found this to be true anyway!

[Quiver0f10]

I can't say how many formula feed vs. breastfeed. I can say that I have observed a lot of qf families who embrace a qf idealogy but make parenting choices that accelerate fertility. (Both as breastfeeding and formula feeding).

 

We must run in different circles becuse I don't see this. However, I personally believe, that each baby is a direct gift from God. He opens and closes the womb. So, formular or breast, if I got pregnant, then it's God will for me at that time. I know not everyone believes this way and I don't expect them to.

[HomeOnTheRanch]

I never really considered myself in the "quiverfull" camp, but I've come around to the feeling that is more of a state of mind than a number.

 

Six months after our 4th child was born (5th preg., 1 mc), several medical issues reared up for me. My doc recommended that I seriously consider not having any more children. At that point, DH and I agreed. I was overwhelmed dealing with myself and my 4 kids. Neither one of us was inclined to do anything permanent so the past six years have been a combination of NFP & barrier. Sort of. There have been plenty of opportunities for "error." If God had wanted us to have another sooner, He certainly could have worked it out without taking the blame ;). I don't believe it would have been healthy for our family, though.

 

In the past few years my medical issues have stabilized, we've worked out issues with our children, and we decided that another child, or two, or three, might not be such a bad idea. I got medical clearance and here we are a few months later expecting another (very much prayed for) baby. My prayers weren't "please, please, please let me have another baby." We weren't even sure if another was possible/advisable with my medical challenges. It was more of a "we're ready if You are" type of prayer.

 

I don't think this was us telling God, but more of God telling us to tell Him. KWIM?

 

I think God gave us the signs/ability for NFP (and to some extent other BC) for a reason. Be open to His leading, Aubrey, whatever that may be.

[nancypants]

I just want to be sure it's Him! Haha! (Like stinky belly buttons. shhh.):)

 

Aubrey, read the full story of Gideon in Judges 6-7, and you will find that you are not alone. Indeed, asking questions and making sure what you are feeling is something that God is laying on your heart as opposed to just emotions.

 

God allowed Gideon to ask questions. He gave him proof. And if you ask me, when God is speaking directly to you in the fashion that he did with Gideon it would seem you have a lot less reason to doubt, especially after he proved himself more than once. And yet Gideon kept asking for confirmation and God continued giving it. He did not expect Gideon to go blindly.

 

Same was true for Moses. He asked God for proof. God gave him several "proofs" and Moses still quaked and stumbled (I would too in his sandals! LOL)

[Susan in TX]

As an interested bystander (and maybe it can help Aubrey too), can anyone address this particular issue? How is using BC to prevent pregnancy different from using medical treatment to prevent death?

 

Death is a negative thing to be avoided. Christians believe that death came into the world as a result of sin. It is a bad thing and not God's best, but a consequence of the fall.

 

Life, however, is a positive thing. It is GOOD. Having children is a good thing, not something that is bad that should be avoided. ( Now, I realise that that is not how our society sees children today.) In the Bible God says children are a blessing NOT a curse. (And it doesn't say that only the first two are a blessing...and only if they were planned etc.) Life is a positive, good thing. Why would you want to prevent it.

 

Susan in TX

[Joanne]

Life, however, is a positive thing. It is GOOD. Having children is a good thing, not something that is bad that should be avoided. ( Now, I realise that that is not how our society sees children today.) In the Bible God says children are a blessing NOT a curse. (And it doesn't say that only the first two are a blessing...and only if they were planned etc.) Life is a positive, good thing. Why would you want to prevent it.

 

True. But it also doesn't say "more is better".

 

The "quiverful" verse, IMO, is meant to be applied to however many you HAVE - not to suggest that more is better.

[Susan in TX]

No denying that here! This isn't an easy path. Early on when I mentioned to my mom that we were leaning this way she said, "I'm just afraid you're jumping on a bandwagon."

 

Let me tell you-- if I were to jump on a bandwagon, this would not be it. The lay-by-the-pool-drinking-pina-coladas bandwagon? THAT'S the bandwagon I want to be on :D

 

But... would I put any of them back? Would I trade any one of our seven? Not a chance. I am so, so thankful God called us to this. And we have no regrets. We feel we've been faithful, and that's what we want most.

 

As a Mom of 8 with another on the way I'd just like to second this. It's not easy but anything worth having comes at a price. No pain, no gain. That's how I see it. And my kids are worth more to me than any material things that we might have sacrificed in order to be able to have 8 kids.

 

Susan in TX

[Joanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanne

I can't say how many formula feed vs. breastfeed. I can say that I have observed a lot of qf families who embrace a qf idealogy but make parenting choices that accelerate fertility. (Both as breastfeeding and formula feeding).

 

We must run in different circles becuse I don't see this. However, I personally believe, that each baby is a direct gift from God. He opens and closes the womb. So, formular or breast, if I got pregnant, then it's God will for me at that time. I know not everyone believes this way and I don't expect them to.

 

Jean,

 

It's refreshing to read that you don't expect everyone to agree.

 

I *don't* believe God designs each conception (as I stated earlier, my God won't create crack babies) but I do believe His biology works.

 

What I was talking about in my post about the community I've observed around QF minded people is this......

 

Many claim "God's will" is to be open to creating life. But the style of family life and parenting they embrace is counter to what *I* see as God's design for natural spacing of children. (And I also believe our fallen world accelerates fertility in some ways and prevents/stalls it in others). For example, many qf families embrace an early infant style that includes parent imposed schedules, even for breastfed babies. This limits the naturally occuring hormones that delay menstruation/fertility. The same is true for a lack of co-sleeping. The less skin to skin contact and night access to Mom, the quicker fertility returns.

 

IMO, it's a bit hypocritical to claim "God's timing" while making choices that accelerate conception.

[OnTheBrink]

I've not read the preceeding 9ish pages, but I wanted to comment on the souls in heaven concept.

 

We (humans) see time in one way: linearly. God, being omniscient and omnipresent, can see time in all directions, so to speak. He doesn't move back and forth in time, the way they did on Quantum Leap. All "time" is in His hands and he can see all time at once. SO, while I do believe He knew us before birth, I also believe that we're created at conception and by Him and that He knew us before, during and after our earthly lives, due to His ability to see time non-linearly.

 

I've not seen anywhere in scripture that there is a holding area for unborn souls. So, if that's been worrying you--that by not having more children you're somehow losing out on or messing up God's plan for your children, I think you can rest assured. :) HE knows how many you'll have, He knows your burdens and He know right now you're concerned with it.

 

Anyway, if this is a repeat of something previously said, sorry. I just need to put the baby down for a nap and get dd back to work on her studies, so I didn't read the whole thread. :)

[dangermom]

May I ask a question, since this seems to have turned into more of a general discussion? I don't think I understand the quiverfull idea very well. Can someone direct me to an explanation of the ins and outs? Also, what does one do if, say, the wife is still fertile but more pregnancies would be very bad for her health?

[Guest Wendy]

Hi Aubrey: I only have a minute, but I wanted to let you know that there is a wonderful website called momys.com that has lots of info on being quiverful. I didn't read enough to "get" whether you have a religious affiliation, so just FYI, momys is a Christian website. If you are Christian, it is a gold mine of information and support, both for educational purposes as well as just general encouragement, home management tips, pregnancy/childbirth, and much more. I'm whitehurst5 on there if you decide to join. Hope to see you there.

[Quiver0f10]

May I ask a question, since this seems to have turned into more of a general discussion? I don't think I understand the quiverfull idea very well. Can someone direct me to an explanation of the ins and outs? Also, what does one do if, say, the wife is still fertile but more pregnancies would be very bad for her health?

 

Here is a good site and I recommend the book listed on this site " A Full Quiver" for information on the concept. http://www.quiverfull.com/

[Aubrey]

May I ask a question, since this seems to have turned into more of a general discussion? I don't think I understand the quiverfull idea very well. Can someone direct me to an explanation of the ins and outs? Also, what does one do if, say, the wife is still fertile but more pregnancies would be very bad for her health?

 

I'm far from an expert, but I'll give you my understanding, since I started the thread.

 

Quiverfull seems to mean no intervention w/ bc. Iow, intimacy takes a natural cycle in marriage, doing nothing to either prevent or "help" fertility along. So you end up w/ whatever # of kids God gives you, according to this way of thinking. The exclusion of bc is extended to NFP & rhythm methods, since, in a way, they could be described as a "manipulation" of the natural process.

 

For your 2nd Q, regarding difficult pregnancies, wife's health risk, etc., I don't know what qf people would say. For the sake of this thread, we've been treating those questions separately. As in, *ideally* what's right? And then, secondarily, what if your situation is an exception to that?

 

Hopefully somebody better informed will chime in, though! :o

[Aubrey]

Just as long as you don't think that everyone who has an early return of fertility must not be nursing, sleeping with baby exc. I basically wear my babies all the time , nurse them when hungry, all that and my fertility returns fully in less than 6 weeks. Believe me I tried very hard to put off fertility! I have another friend with the same issue. Each of us is an individual. It is what it is.

 

I'm the same way. I think it must somehow be related to short cycles, but my fertility has returned sooner w/ ea baby. After #3 it was so soon, I wasn't even sure that's what it was. Talk about bummed.

[Aubrey]

Here is a good site and I recommend the book listed on this site " A Full Quiver" for information on the concept. http://www.quiverfull.com/

 

Jean,

 

Reading this website was what caused me to start this thread. I mean, I'd been thinking about it anyway w/out knowing there was a term for it, then found this site.

 

But I couldn't find much information there. There were links to news articles on people w/ big families & links to good books to read (which I wish my library had!), etc.

 

There didn't seem to be a lot actually *there.* Did I miss the good part somehow?

 

Thanks!

[Aubrey]

Hi Aubrey: I only have a minute, but I wanted to let you know that there is a wonderful website called momys.com that has lots of info on being quiverful.

 

Yep, my neighbor likes to visit there. I didn't realize it was specifically qf; I'll have to look again.

 

Thanks!

 

Oh, & yeah, I'm a Christian. Dh is in seminary right now. Which is part of what would make it a lot easier to think about this later, when our lives are a little more... stable.

[Scarlett]

One argument I have heard against Quiver-full mindset is that God has given us the tools and intelligence to make these choices for ourselves.

 

This is the thought I've intended to post several times as I've read this thread. It blows my mind that people actually believe it is wrong to slow down or stop on the baby making. God gave the command to 'multiply' to the first humans. The earth was empty of people! That is why it had to be populated. Later the Nation of Israel needed to increase in size as well. However, we are not in that time period. Yes, every child is indeed a blessing from God, but not all circumstances are a blessing for every child. Or mother. I think of poor Andrea Yates (and some days I dont' think she deserves sympathy, but some days I do). I think of the worthless families out there having child after child that they are not caring for. Is that God's will? Not the God I know.

 

He gave us a brain. He gave us abilities. As long as we are not breaking one of his laws, we are free to make personal decisions for ourselves and the good of our family. Yes, God's Will WILL be done. That however, does not negate the free will he gave us to decide some things for ourselves.

 

Now back to the size of families. I have nothing against large families. I'm not one of those 'oh those poor kids, they can't possibly get the attention they need.' I think love multiplies with each child. My mother came from a large family and she did not resent it even though she was the oldest. I think any couple should be able to determine how many children they bring into this world. Naturally, they should be able to care for them----and that is not to say they have to provide them with the best of all things material. I'm thinking food, shelter, clothing and love. But beyond that, more power to them.

 

However, I am really bothered to see people encouraging, strongly encouraging woman to keep on reproducing when she is neither willing or able, using scripture as their weapon.

[Quiver0f10]

Jean,

 

Reading this website was what caused me to start this thread. I mean, I'd been thinking about it anyway w/out knowing there was a term for it, then found this site.

 

But I couldn't find much information there. There were links to news articles on people w/ big families & links to good books to read (which I wish my library had!), etc.

 

There didn't seem to be a lot actually *there.* Did I miss the good part somehow?

 

Thanks!

 

I haven't read through the site in years and we were qf before I knew there was a name for what we were LOL. I just thought we were nuts :D

 

Try this link and see if it helps any, although I haven't read it yet http://www.quiverfull.com/birthcontrol.php

[Aubrey]

The other problem I have is that half of these families continue to have more children eventhough they cannot afford the ones they have. Between Medicaid, Famis, and WIC -- it just makes no sense to me to continue to increase the tax burden on others all the while saying "God is providing."

 

 

I've been thinking about this a lot since you posted it. Well, before, too, because it *is* an issue. Whether or not it's a common one like you've indicated, it underscores the importance of the question.

 

IF this is the right way to go, to what extent? If the mother's life is in danger w/ ea pg, to ME, that seems like an exception. If a family can't afford to feed the dc they've got...well...that SEEMS like a legitimate exception, too.

 

Except. A tiny, tiny part of me asks: If something is right, is it only right as long as we can afford it? Would we say abortion was acceptable if a very poor family found themselves unexpectedly pg?

 

Not that bc is NECESSARILY the same, but the principle applies, kwim? I guess I'm looking for a guideline, & then I have to work out the what-if's.

 

I'm pg w/ #4 right now. Dh & I have always wanted app. 4, MAYBE more. But we JUST had #3, & dh has just started seminary. He has had a harder time finding a good enough job to support us & work w/ his sch schedule. We're at the pt that we've spent our savings & can't afford to leave before Aug even if we wanted to: student housing is way cheaper than anything else.

 

So I'm IMMEDIATELY pg in the midst of this. Do you have any idea how embarrassed I feel? I tell strangers at the grocery store what a surprise this one is. I feel like the only way I can justify this baby is to assure anyone who looks at me that we DID use bc. So it's not really our fault.

 

I can't imagine walking around w/ the burden of "blame" in this situation. When I imagine that bc might not be acceptable (for me if no one else), the main thing that bothers me is what other people would think. ESPECIALLY given our current financial situation, which I hope is temporary. But...who can say for sure? You know?

 

I do care what other people think. The more $ I have, the less I care, because of the "responisibility" aspect. The truth is, I should be more concerned about God's opinion than that of others. But that really begs the question of gov't aid: is accepting it a means of God helping or is it an avenue of escape from trusting him?

 

Everyone around me (it seems) is making ends meet here at seminary by accepting whatever gov't aid they can get, & I'm the ONLY one who sees a problem w/ it. They all talk about learning humility thr the experience.

 

On the one hand, what do I know? On the other hand, that doesn't sound like humility. That sounds like letting someone else put you through school. But then, I had another friend whose dh went to law school via the same means. Why did that seem okay? Is that different?

 

I don't know, but I did want to say that I think the question you've raised is valid, & I would LOVE to have an answer. No, I'd love to have THE answer!

[Joanne]

Just as long as you don't think that everyone who has an early return of fertility must not be nursing, sleeping with baby exc. I basically wear my babies all the time , nurse them when hungry, all that and my fertility returns fully in less than 6 weeks. Believe me I tried very hard to put off fertility! I have another friend with the same issue. Each of us is an individual. It is what it is

 

I don't. I'm one of those people myself. I believe it's an a symptom of a fallen world. Hormones in food, artificial lighting, less skin to skin than in earlier times......

 

I believe that there IS supposed to be a certain spacing between kids so the infant/toddler gets the most optimal nutrition from Mom and Mom's body has time in between pregnancies (which, while natural, were not meant to be stacked on top of each other).

[Aubrey]

I haven't read through the site in years and we were qf before I knew there was a name for what we were LOL. I just thought we were nuts :D

 

Try this link and see if it helps any, although I haven't read it yet http://www.quiverfull.com/birthcontrol.php

 

This seems to primarily focus on bc pills, which dh & I have never used. I'd like to hear about more conservative bc, like barrier/NFP. I guess I'd like everything to be like these boards! ;)

[Susan in TX]

The other problem I have is that half of these families continue to have more children eventhough they cannot afford the ones they have. Between Medicaid, Famis, and WIC -- it just makes no sense to me to continue to increase the tax burden on others all the while saying "God is providing."

 

 

Yes but these same children will be shouldering the tax burden of supporting all those baby boomers and Gen Xers who couldn't be bothered with having children of their own. Children do not just benefit their parents. They are an asset to society as a whole, so I see nothing wrong with parents taking advantage of the government support that is available.

 

Susan in TX

[Quiver0f10]

Yes but these same children will be shouldering the tax burden of supporting all those baby boomers and Gen Xers who couldn't be bothered with having children of their own. Children do not just benefit their parents. They are an asset to society as a whole, so I see nothing wrong with parents taking advantage of the government support that is available.

 

Susan in TX

 

There are plenty of families with 1-2 kids use WIC, food stamps etc too and not large families are on welfare. I am not saying getting state aid is wrong and if you need to, then by all means use it. That's what it was created for!