Should I just let him use a multiplication table for now?

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Hi:

 

My ds (10) just cannot seem to get his multiplication facts (or any math facts - add/subtract/mult/div) completely memorized. I have tried everything with him and we drill every day either with worksheets, writing out the tables or flash cards. We are also utilizing Timez Attack. This stuggle is taking the joy out of math for him. Conceptually, he is doing fine. He can work 3 and 4 digit multiplication problems and divide in the same way. Should I just let him use a table for now to assist him or at least make sure that he is answering correctly? He was crying this morning and is starting to feel defeated. Any thoughts?

 

Blessings,

 

Lisa

[MamaT]

My dd (9) had this trouble as well. I let her use a multiplication chart for a while and stopped the drilling. After a couple of months, she was ready to try again and FINALLY has them down.

 

IMO sometimes taking a break can help, and when they come back to it they are more ready to learn.

[Dee in MI]

I taped a multiplication table to the inside of the pantry door. My son could get up and check it any time. This encouraged him to think a bit before checking and to hold the fact in his mind while he made it back to his seat.

[74Heaven]

Hi:

 

My ds (10) just cannot seem to get his multiplication facts (or any math facts - add/subtract/mult/div) completely memorized. I have tried everything with him and we drill every day either with worksheets, writing out the tables or flash cards. We are also utilizing Timez Attack. This stuggle is taking the joy out of math for him. Conceptually, he is doing fine. He can work 3 and 4 digit multiplication problems and divide in the same way. Should I just let him use a table for now to assist him or at least make sure that he is answering correctly? He was crying this morning and is starting to feel defeated. Any thoughts?

 

Blessings,

 

Lisa

 

I would make him use manipulatives, such as cusinaire rods. Yes, it will take just as long as thinking it up on his own but the visual/tactile reinforcement should help cement the drill sheets, flashcards, writing the tables, etc.

 

Personally I would learn those times tables and stop with any concepts that require he know the times tables *until* he has mastered the facts. I have done this with a public schooled 9-10yo boy and it took 2 weeks (about 20min a day, 3-4 days a week) for him to learn the facts. First I went thru with some "number sense" as in explaining how odds and evens give certain answers, doubles facts, twins, switch-around-principle (commutative), etc. Then,the number one thing we did was timed drill sheets - same one (A Beka or Saxon) every day until he could do them quickly. There are other tools incl QuarterMile (which we use).

 

I would absolutely *not* let him use a crutch of multiplication tables *if* he is able to memorize the facts. Rewards? Extra time practicing with Dad? Library videos? IOW, get to the problem (apparently) this has been going on for years if he hasn't memorized his +/- facts either?

 

If he can memorize songs, poems, lines from movies, he can do this! THere are tools such as chants, rap and other songs for these facts. Also, skip counting is a required skill here before multiplication tables.

 

HTH!

Lisa

[iammommy]

I do with my son. He has most of the facts down, but not all. I don't want him to be so frustrated he ends up hating math.

 

HTH!

Nan

[SonshineLearner]

My mom did flashcards with me. I said, "I can't" she said "you will". 2 weeks.....and I had them down. Each day, she started with the stack...and then left the ones I knew..and drilled the ones I didn't. I felt so accomplished at the end.

I've heard the it's better to drill first with the answers and then without. SO, either use post it notes to have the answer on flashcards for the answers...or buy some...and then just have less and less. OR, you can start with all the "3's" 3*1, 3*2, 3*3 etc... or all of the facts that end up with the answer 12.... (1*12, 2*6, 3*4...)

I would concentrate only on math facts, at least every other day, until learned. ( I can't remember but there's are studies about how long it needs to be between studying. Maybe it's a "no longer than" ...so many hours)

Carrie:-)

[Jann in TX]

Let him use a table...

 

This does not mean that you stop giving him practice--but make it a reasonable amount (5 minutes or so each day)--don't try to force them into his head!

 

My oldest dd could 'figure' out her addition and subtraction facts so quickly that my DH thought she had them memorized... It was a different story with her multiplication and division facts--even though she could skip count she was painfully SLOWWWWW. Since I was positive she knew the WHYs of multiplication and division (just watching her 'figure' a fact made that clear) I let her move on.... eventually she got them!

 

I've had lots of students who had their basic facts down--drilled to perfection...except they were 'conceptually immature'--they did not know what to do the the facts when it came time to solve problems--especially fractions!

 

I prefer that my students understand the concepts--if they can work the problem correctly (even using a table) then all is well.

 

* Just wanted to add that having facts memorized is NOT the same as understanding a concept--completely different issue/part of the brain. Having facts memorized is a matter of convenience. It is VERY possible to work out complex math problems without knowing the basic facts by memory--but you do need an understanding of what they are so you can 'figure' them out!

Edited March 13, 2009 by Jann in TX
just wanted to add...

[Penny]

Have you tried Times Tales?? These are just silly stories made up to get the child to memorize the upper times tales. They have worked on 3 out of 3 of my children, resulting in memorizing the upper times tables in about 1.5 days.

 

Penny

[elegantlion]

My son has trouble remembering them. He is allowed to use a table, it's a placemat. I find him using it less and less.

 

He has a memory like a hawk and I used to get so frustrated with him for not being able to memorize them. Then I read it is one of the symptoms of dyslexia, which he has mildly. Then I drilled myself to see if I could remember all the tables without looking. Um, No. So I lightened up.

 

It is one of our goals this summer to completely memorize them but until then I'm not forcing it.

[5Youngs]

My mom did flashcards with me. I said, "I can't" she said "you will". 2 weeks.....and I had them down. Each day, she started with the stack...and then left the ones I knew..and drilled the ones I didn't. I felt so accomplished at the end.

I've heard the it's better to drill first with the answers and then without. SO, either use post it notes to have the answer on flashcards for the answers...or buy some...and then just have less and less. OR, you can start with all the "3's" 3*1, 3*2, 3*3 etc... or all of the facts that end up with the answer 12.... (1*12, 2*6, 3*4...)

I would concentrate only on math facts, at least every other day, until learned. ( I can't remember but there's are studies about how long it needs to be between studying. Maybe it's a "no longer than" ...so many hours)

Carrie:-)

 

100% agree~

I had to teach the multiplication tables 3 times!!! in a year to my middle son.

We would drill, drill, drill, he would have them forward and backward.

Come next Monday, he would look at me like I had lost my mind when I would ask him what 6x7 was......:001_huh:

(I seriously considered medicating myself throughout this):confused:

BUT, patience and diligence prevailed, and he finally retained them.

WHOO HOO!!!

Try the flashcards with the answers first, then without.

I remember my 5th grade math teacher giving us timed tests on multiplication several times, every day until every kid in the class knew them.

And I know too many adults who still can't multiply their 6, 7s, 8s and 9s in their head...............

Hang in there~

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Thanks for all of the replies. This is our first year homeschooling and it has been quite a journey. I am seeing issues all the way around with my son and I think that we may be dealing with more than normal memorization (or lack of) issues. He is having problems all the way around with memory (in every subject). He also is having problems deciphering even the most basic of word problems - the verbiage. Once I explain things to him, he can do the concepts fine. We are currently working through a Spectrum 5 Test Prep book and he is not doing well. This is from a child that has always scored at least two levels ahead on his SAT's (formerly private schooled) and has for the most part always been able to make the honor roll.

 

I really am confused as to what to think. He has been diagnosed with ADHD but I am beginning to suspect something else is going on.

 

I think, for now, I will let him us the table along with the additional reinforcement because we did back off all other academics back in December to focus on nothing but math facts and phonics and we are right back where we started. I would appreciate any additional input.

 

Blessings,

 

Lisa

Edited March 13, 2009 by blessed2fosteradopt
typos

[Dee in MI]

Another thing I did - I made a blank times table in my spreadsheet, and I filled out what I knew he knew, like times 1 and times 2. Then I printed it out and gave him a blank form each morning. He filled out the table at the beginning of the day, and he could use it that day during math. As he learned more facts well, I put them in my spreadsheet so that after a while he only had a few stubborn facts that he filled out each day. When he had those, then I put the printed table in the pantry.

[Krista in LA]

Lisa, my 10ds is in the same place as yours. Every year we drill. I have tried so many different things - cuisinaire rods, flash cards, drill sheets, etc and he still doesn't have them down. What he can do very quickly is skip count which works fine for some things, but not so helpful for others. I gave him a times table sheet and as we have worked through the facts, I erase the ones he seems to have down. He still struggles though. I like the suggestion to post the table on a door where he has to get up to look at it, but it would probably just be an excuse for my ds to get up constantly instead of focusing on his work. LOL My 13dd, who is a math whiz with concepts, didn't have her facts down at that age either, but did better than he is. She knows them all quite well now and did very well with algebra in 7th grade, so I'm not going to worry too much about it yet. If my ds finishes Singapore 6 and still doesn't know them, we will spend a lot more time on them. In the meantime, I agee with Jann's advice.

 

Let him use a table...

 

This does not mean that you stop giving him practice--but make it a reasonable amount (5 minutes or so each day)--don't try to force them into his head!

 

My oldest dd could 'figure' out her addition and subtraction facts so quickly that my DH thought she had them memorized... It was a different story with her multiplication and division facts--even though she could skip count she was painfully SLOWWWWW. Since I was positive she knew the WHYs of multiplication and division (just watching her 'figure' a fact made that clear) I let her move on.... eventually she got them!

 

I've had lots of students who had their basic facts down--drilled to perfection...except they were 'conceptually immature'--they did not know what to do the the facts when it came time to solve problems--especially fractions!

 

I prefer that my students understand the concepts--if they can work the problem correctly (even using a table) then all is well.

 

* Just wanted to add that having facts memorized is NOT the same as understanding a concept--completely different issue/part of the brain. Having facts memorized is a matter of convenience. It is VERY possible to work out complex math problems without knowing the basic facts by memory--but you do need an understanding of what they are so you can 'figure' them out!

[Colleen in SEVA]

My vote is to let him use a chart. I completely agree with the cover of Challenge Math that "Math is often taught as all scales and no music." Math is (or should be!) exciting and fun, but learning the times tables is not either of these. He absolutely needs to get the facts down pat.... eventually... but in the mean time its ok to move on to bigger and better things IMO.

 

With my oldest, I used a blank grid to list the products in order, so if he wanted to know what 6x7 was, he would go to the 6 row and count across 7 blocks. As he was doing this, he was saying 2 when he saw 12, saying 3 when he saw 18, etc. So all of the 6s up to that were reviewed in the process.

 

We use this as the bookmark in his math book, so he has it available any time he needs it, which isn't very often now. He also has a pencil with the times facts listed on it, but the print is so small it bugs him.

 

On a side note... I also drew a square around the square numbers, but never mentioned it. Then when he learned what square numbers were, he said "hey, look, this number is a square and it has a SQUARE around it!" *grin*

[Spy Car]

Lisa, over the past months there have been quite a few threads from despondent parents whose children were struggling with "math facts". Most of the children had been subject to intensive drills and "timed tests", and most were using Saxon Math (which evidently promotes this methodology).

 

I don't want to disparage a program I haven't used, and I'm aware that may parents and children have had good success with Saxon, but it also seems from the high volume of posts on the subject that many children just seem to shut down under what some have labeled "drill and kill".

 

Provoking anxiety in a child doesn't seem like a great method for teaching any subject, and after reading parent after parent saying there children are hating math, and seeing a common denominator, I really wonder if what seems like a highly pressurized approach is a good pedological model to teaching math for most children.

 

Bill

[Nestof3]

Have you tried Times Tales?? These are just silly stories made up to get the child to memorize the upper times tales. They have worked on 3 out of 3 of my children, resulting in memorizing the upper times tables in about 1.5 days.

 

Penny

 

I was going to say the same thing! I ordered it for me. Daisychics 4 year old daugther has the higher ones memorized just by listening to her brother learn them.

[Nestof3]

Lisa, over the past months there have been quite a few threads from despondent parents whose children were struggling with "math facts". Most of the children had been subject to intensive drills and "timed tests", and most were using Saxon Math (which evidently promotes this methodology).

 

I don't want to disparage a program I haven't used, and I'm aware that may parents and children have had good success with Saxon, but it also seems from the high volume of posts on the subject that many children just seem to shut down under what some have labeled "drill and kill".

 

Provoking anxiety in a child doesn't seem like a great method for teaching any subject, and after reading parent after parent saying there children are hating math, and seeing a common denominator, I really wonder if what seems like a highly pressurized approach is a good pedological model to teaching math for most children.

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

Since you haven't used it, I will explain how Saxon deals with math facts.

 

First, they are introduced very slowly over an extended period of time. Some of the facts are memorized in such a subtle way that by the time "multiplication" is introduced, the child already has many memorized many of them.

 

The 7's, for example, are taught while the calendar is being studied. They use the calendar to count up the days in one week, two weeks, etc.

 

The "timed" math facts tests (which neither have to be timed nor completed in full) are very short.

 

Saxon users are never told to sit down and memorize their facts. It takes almost all of Saxon 3 just to get through all of the multiplication facts.

 

My youngest, Ben, actually says he loves the timed math sheets. I stopped timing my boys because the timing itself created anxiety. Ben reacts the same way to a video game with a time limit.

 

I will use Times Tales for memorizing the higher, more difficult facts because it's fun.

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

Since you haven't used it, I will explain how Saxon deals with math facts.

 

First, they are introduced very slowly over an extended period of time. Some of the facts are memorized in such a subtle way that by the time "multiplication" is introduced, the child already has many memorized many of them.

 

The 7's, for example, are taught while the calendar is being studied. They use the calendar to count up the days in one week, two weeks, etc.

 

The "timed" math facts tests (which neither have to be timed nor completed in full) are very short.

 

Saxon users are never told to sit down and memorize their facts. It takes almost all of Saxon 3 just to get through all of the multiplication facts.

 

My youngest, Ben, actually says he loves the timed math sheets. I stopped timing my boys because the timing itself created anxiety. Ben reacts the same way to a video game with a time limit.

 

I will use Times Tales for memorizing the higher, more difficult facts because it's fun.

 

Dawn, what do you think is the reason so many mothers have posted in recent months about their children either struggling with "math facts" or their children growing resentful of math among Saxon users?

 

Is it just that there are so many Saxon users? Or do you feel I'm misperceiving the tone of the threads here?

 

I said up front I haven't used Saxon, I don't have an axe to grind against this program, but I've read all the math threads on this forum for many months and to me it seems like there is a pattern of "problems". And that a lot of children are ending up with "math anxiety."

 

Bill

[Nestof3]

Dawn, what do you think is the reason so many mothers have posted in recent months about their children either struggling with "math facts" or their children growing resentful of math among Saxon users?

 

Is it just that there are so many Saxon users? Or do you feel I'm misperceiving the tone of the threads here?

 

I said up front I haven't used Saxon, I don't have an axe to grind against this program, but I've read all the math threads on this forum for many months and to me it seems like there is a pattern of "problems". And that a lot of children are ending up with "math anxiety."

 

Bill

 

I guess I just cannot understand the connection b/c it doesn't sound like you are describing Saxon at all. I admit I haven't seen those threads, so I really don't know the sort of mathematical atmosphere set up in their home. I don't know how much the parent is involved, etc.

 

Math facts have to be memorized in any program, and many people supplement programs with games, like Right Start Math.

 

I can understand certain children not meshing with certain programs -- I think the same is true in all subjects, and I think that is fine.

 

I personally have half a bookcase of various math manipulatives and games. I believe it's best to make it as fun as possible, but I also sit with my boys when they're young while they do their math, I check every problem, we discuss anything missed, I put huge, happy stickers all over their papers, etc.

 

My boys were playing with fraction circle pieces and pattern blocks before we even started a math program.

 

I've personally never used any program and NOT supplemented it.

 

We play Math War to help with math facts. We play many math games just for fun in the evening or whatever.

 

I try to do the same thing with grammar. For learning the prepositions, I made a bingo game, for example.

 

What I have noticed is that my boys actually gain confidence with Saxon because when they learn a new concept, there may be only one or two problems that day on their worksheet pertaining to that concept. The rest are a way for them to show me their "stuff" -- to show me that they still know how to measure, still understand fractions, etc. This makes them feel very good at math.

 

Textbooks for Saxon 5/4 and beyond (after facts should be memorized) are more time-consuming, but we used them successfully by halving the problems and even skipping ahead about 25 lessons each year (because of the review).

 

I honestly have no need to convert anyone to a specific program -- I'm very eclectic in what I use in my homeschool. I personally think most of the effectiveness of any program lies in the parent's enthusiasm and interaction. I just wanted to give my take on this program.

[unsinkable]

I'd let him use a table (that he created!) along with daily practice. Someone upthread said put she put the table in the pantry. I agree with putting in a place where your ds has to get up to walk to see it.

[Nestof3]

I'd let him use a table (that he created!) along with daily practice. Someone upthread said put she put the table in the pantry. I agree with putting in a place where your ds has to get up to walk to see it.

 

I did this when Nathan was learning his 7 facts. He was allowed to use a calendar and a hundred chart. I also had him write his 7 facts on a sheet of paper and refer to it every once in a while. I was surprised at how fast he was able to master them.

 

For Ben, I allowed him to use counters (orange cubes, colored circles, whatever he wanted) for his addition sheets while he was learning his facts. I saw no problem with this, nor did I feel an urgency to get him to learn them super quickly. I wanted him to enjoy math, not despise it. Pretty soon, he wasn't using them anymore.

[DeeDeeMarie0]

I have had the same situation. I talked with a seasoned teacher whom I respect and she told me to let my ds use the charts. She said not to hold him back working on the times tables when he can be moving ahead and feeling good about his accomplishments. She said it will come. I have seen this happen with my oldest. He is very good at math, but was very slow with times tables. We are using Times Tables the Fun Way. It is a mnemonic program with fun stories and pictures. I have used it with the first three and am now using it with 8 yr old ds. We just do one story a week and drill what we know. I told this ds that he could use the chart to do this work and he started crying and said "No. That is cheating." Sometimes you can't win!:willy_nilly:

[Spy Car]

I guess I just cannot understand the connection b/c it doesn't sound like you are describing Saxon at all. I admit I haven't seen those threads, so I really don't know the sort of mathematical atmosphere set up in their home. I don't know how much the parent is involved, etc.

 

Math facts have to be memorized in any program, and many people supplement programs with games, like Right Start Math.

 

I can understand certain children not meshing with certain programs -- I think the same is true in all subjects, and I think that is fine.

 

I personally have half a bookcase of various math manipulatives and games. I believe it's best to make it as fun as possible, but I also sit with my boys when they're young while they do their math, I check every problem, we discuss anything missed, I put huge, happy stickers all over their papers, etc.

 

My boys were playing with fraction circle pieces and pattern blocks before we even started a math program.

 

I've personally never used any program and NOT supplemented it.

 

We play Math War to help with math facts. We play many math games just for fun in the evening or whatever.

 

I try to do the same thing with grammar. For learning the prepositions, I made a bingo game, for example.

 

What I have noticed is that my boys actually gain confidence with Saxon because when they learn a new concept, there may be only one or two problems that day on their worksheet pertaining to that concept. The rest are a way for them to show me their "stuff" -- to show me that they still know how to measure, still understand fractions, etc. This makes them feel very good at math.

 

Textbooks for Saxon 5/4 and beyond (after facts should be memorized) are more time-consuming, but we used them successfully by halving the problems and even skipping ahead about 25 lessons each year (because of the review).

 

I honestly have no need to convert anyone to a specific program -- I'm very eclectic in what I use in my homeschool. I personally think most of the effectiveness of any program lies in the parent's enthusiasm and interaction. I just wanted to give my take on this program.

 

Dawn, I think despite any perceived differences between us that we are very like minded about how we approach math.

 

Use games, manipulatives, keep it fun, and approach it with enthusiasm and interaction. And I don't disagree that at the end of the day children ought to know their multiplication tables (and what-not). The only question is how you get there is all.

 

There have been a lot of threads in past months where mothers have expressed some variation of the idea that they have been drilling and drilling and drilling their kids but they just don't seem to get it, and they now hate math.

 

Perhaps it's a problem that people think if a little is good, more is better. I don't know. But there have been many threads on this front. So it does make we wonder what is going on. And most of the posters are not using manipulatives, and are not playing games or using other techniques you or I might favor. So I wonder are those things built into Saxon or not? I don't know.

 

And "timed tests" at too young an age? Could be a bad idea. Maybe not for a super-confident "hot-shot" of a child who thrives on being challenged, but for one struggling or bored, it sounds counter-productive.

 

Bill

[Ellie]

Yes, do it. Eventually he'll remember that 7x8=56 when he has to look it up a dozen times.

[blessed2fosteradopt]

And "timed tests" at too young an age? Could be a bad idea. Maybe not for a super-confident "hot-shot" of a child who thrives on being challenged, but for one struggling or bored, it sounds counter-productive.

 

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly and do not require my son to do the timed drills. He did these in his private school setting and it proved disastrous. One semester, it caused him to drop two letter grades until I intervened and was able to have the grades revised to reflect his scores minus the timed drills (physician's note - ADHD diagnosis). I only use the timed tests from Saxon as worksheets.

 

Other than the above, I feel he has done well with Saxon. He does well with most concepts (except for word problems lately - whole other issue :crying:) and he really needs the approach it provides to help him gain mastery.

I will utilize a chart with him and see how he does. I also plan on checking out Times Tales as well.

 

I also should work in the time to incorporate some games. I know that can only be a positive. I just have to find the time to be able to get to it. I am hoping that we are just working out the "first year kinks" and that next year will run a bit smoother.

 

Thanks again, everyone!

 

Blessings,

 

Lisa

[PollyOR]

:iagree: Let him use a chart. All of my children have struggled with math facts until they were 10-11.

 

This same method is recommended in the beginning of Key to Algebra.

[LizzyBee]

My very visual 12 yo learned her multiplication and division facts by looking at and using a multiplication chart while doing her math. For some kids, giving them a chart is actually more effective than drill.

[Nestof3]

Dawn, I think despite any perceived differences between us that we are very like minded about how we approach math.

 

Differences? What differences? ;)

 

Use games, manipulatives, keep it fun, and approach it with enthusiasm and interaction. And I don't disagree that at the end of the day children ought to know their multiplication tables (and what-not). The only question is how you get there is all.

 

 

I'd also add it's "when" you get there. I think there is a math readiness not unlike reading readiness. When I see parents stressing that their 6 year old doesn't know all of their addition facts or wondering why they're having difficulty in what would typically be a second or third grade text, the answer seems rather obvious.

 

I think on a classical forum, and among homeschoolers in general, there is a sense of failure when our children don't measure up to others'. I have a good friend (Hi -- daisychics!) whose son is the same age as my youngest (who is using Saxon 2) and he is already doing long division. Do I feel rather loser-ish? Yep. I admit it. I start wondering what I've done wrong. But honestly, I've done nothing wrong. I introduced math at various levels when I thought it was time, erring on the side of too late rather than too early. I did the same with reading. Nathan, my verbally-gifted son, could probably have started reading at four instead of -- well, I don't remember what age he was. But, now he is reading Lord of the Rings, so all is well.

 

There have been a lot of threads in past months where mothers have expressed some variation of the idea that they have been drilling and drilling and drilling their kids but they just don't seem to get it, and they now hate math.

 

 

I don't doubt you. I guess what I am saying is that I don't think the drilling, drilling, drilling thing is intrinsic to Saxon. I don't think drilling x 3 should every be done (or ever have to be). Perhaps there is some readiness issue, or perhaps it can be worked on a little at a time.

 

I do wonder how many of these moms are enthusiastic about math? I quite often read about homeschoolers who hate math or science or whatever. I think often our own insecurities about a subject or method affect how we deliver it.

 

I took a history course in college (I considered minoring in history b/c I thought it would complement my English degree in that I could better understand the literature of various time periods). The professor was so dull! He read in a very monotone voice from a textbook he wrote while I slept most of the time. I remember writing notes and the notes turning into some gibberish that I was dreaming about. So, I minored in religion instead, focusing on Eastern religions.

 

My Dad, a non-self-educator, took a few courses with some of his military education money when he was in his 50's. One of these courses was history. This high school teacher moonlighting as community college professor exuded passion about history, and my dad loved it!

 

Sure, it could have been the difference in textbooks, but I do think enthusiasm is catching.

 

Perhaps it's a problem that people think if a little is good, more is better. I don't know. But there have been many threads on this front. So it does make we wonder what is going on. And most of the posters are not using manipulatives, and are not playing games or using other techniques you or I might favor. So I wonder are those things built into Saxon or not? I don't know.

 

 

Manipulatives are very core to the K-3 Saxon program. I have a large container full of the ones Saxon specifies that comes to the table every time we do math. I also have others, such as place value cubes, place value mat, and such that I have the boys use. When working with money in the beginning, I allow my boys to use the money tray with all money problems until they no longer need the actual coins.

 

Beyond those levels, there is no manipulative kit, but when I used Saxon with Aaron (started in the fifth grade), I remember having some manipulatives on hand that he used. I also specifically recall making a rectangle out of four cardboard strips, securing them with brads, and slanting it to show how a non-rectangular parallelogram had the same area as a rectangle. I recall using fraction/decimal/percentage manipulatives as well. It's been a while, so my memory is a little foggy.

 

Again, I am not saying there is anything wrong with having preferences regarding educational programs and resources. I surely have my own. I am not a big fan of textbooks in general and can never stop from supplementing when I do use one. Last year for math, I armed myself with math goals, workbooks and tons of manipulatives and did math that way. For science, I can not imagine just reading a textbook and doing a few projects. I have to get myself intensely involved in the designing of my programs.

 

One thing I have loved about homeschooling is how it has taught me to be a better teacher. Unfortunately, I have not become a more patient one (well, maybe a little). :glare: But, when the light doesn't go on when I'm teaching a math concept, I have been pressed to think of another way to explain it. I have also learned the importance of scrap paper, pencil and drawings. I'm always telling my boys, "Draw a picture." So often, pictures really make the difference between understanding mathematical concepts.

 

And "timed tests" at too young an age? Could be a bad idea. Maybe not for a super-confident "hot-shot" of a child who thrives on being challenged, but for one struggling or bored, it sounds counter-productive.

 

 

Yes, timed can be stressful. Saxon actually explains that a child is not expected to complete all of the problems at first. You are supposed to give your child a set amount of time and count how many they finish, so in a sense, that's how you "time" it. My son didn't buy that, and he become very frustrated if he couldn't complete all of the problems from day one. So, I just stopped timing him.

 

I also don't have them do every problem or every sheet every time. I just make the program work for us.

[Nestof3]

Oh, Bill, one more thing.

 

I forgot to mention that I also see something else plague homeschoolers. It's the comparison of programs. I often see someone say that their child is having difficulty with something and start asking what program someone else is using as if it's automatically the program. Difficulty doesn't necessarily indicate a problem with the program -- not even for that child. All children hit walls of difficulty. Sometimes we need to learn to be patient and stop stressing about falling behind.

 

I also see way we ooh and ahh when someone presents a program that works beautifully for them. We start second-guessing ourselves.

 

Yes, sometimes it's time to move on, to try something different, but not always.

[Chez J]

It's a book that has cute stories and pictures for the math facts. My daughter was gleeful with this book because she finally found what she needed to help her learn them. She's apparently extremely visual. She told me she now likes math again.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Times-Tables-Fun-Way-Multiplication/dp/1883841437/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236991477&sr=8-1

 

HTH,

 

Lesley

 

PS I let her us a chart to keep going. But, this book helped her learn the facts in about one sitting. I still quiz her on the book stories to help her keep them fresh.

[Spy Car]

Differences? What differences? ;)

 

Ok Dawn, you've soften my heart to Saxon (at least the way you do it :D).

 

And I'm totally with you that enthusiasm and passion are the key. That and having ideas about how to present concepts so children can learn them easily. And things such as moving from the concrete to the abstract in a variety of ways. I guess it's on that last point I feel grateful to have stumbled on some of the books and math programs I have, because I feel I've been able to glean good ideas from multiple sources. And that these resources have inspired me to find a style that makes math exciting for my son.

 

I guess what was worrying me as much as anything else, was that Saxon might not be inspiring parents to be great teachers, they way you are. I could be dead wrong about this (the Saxon part, not you being a great teacher :D).

 

I just know how much I got from reading the teacher materials from Miquon, and the games and good times this inspired when my son was young (like he's old now at 4.7). How we broke out Cuisenaire Rods and did equations, and the satisfaction and confidence grew, and how that continues to pay off.

 

These sort of "critical thinking" approaches to math make me feel like the brain fires up with all sorts of neurological activity.. It's palpable to me. And I'd love to see ever child experience that wonder of discovery that comes with learning.

 

Anyway, I'm blathering.

 

And if you are telling me I've been wrong in beginning to suspect Saxon might be an uninspiring (and even spirit-killing) math curriculum, then I'm actually happy to hear it.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Oh, Bill, one more thing.

 

I forgot to mention that I also see something else plague homeschoolers. It's the comparison of programs. I often see someone say that their child is having difficulty with something and start asking what program someone else is using as if it's automatically the program. Difficulty doesn't necessarily indicate a problem with the program -- not even for that child. All children hit walls of difficulty. Sometimes we need to learn to be patient and stop stressing about falling behind.

 

I also see way we ooh and ahh when someone presents a program that works beautifully for them. We start second-guessing ourselves.

 

Yes, sometimes it's time to move on, to try something different, but not always.

 

Point well taken. In my own case I'm glad I started trying to figure out what sorts of materials I might want to use with him when he was still in utero because finding just the right things (from my perspective) hasn't been an easy task, and my head swims at some of the decisions that need yet be made.

 

Bill

[Mom2boys]

I really am confused as to what to think. He has been diagnosed with ADHD but I am beginning to suspect something else is going on.

 

I think, for now, I will let him us the table along with the additional reinforcement because we did back off all other academics back in December to focus on nothing but math facts and phonics and we are right back where we started. I would appreciate any additional input.

 

Blessings,

 

Lisa

 

My ds11 was recently diagnosed ADD. He also can't seem to memorize his math facts, or his spelling words, but from what I have read, that is typical for ADD kids. So, it may just be your son's ADHD that is making it hard for him to learn his math facts. I allow my son to use a table.

[Mary in WA]

Yes, absolutely let him use the charts. The only one they have trouble remembering is 8 X 7. Just drill him on that one frequently.

 

(From a mother of grown children who majored in math in college...)

[Evergreen State Sue]

My ds with has learning struggles too and math is a big issue. I did the flash cards and that would help, but then he would forget them again. Then I told him he could use the multiplication table if he filled a new one out each day. I think that took the pressure off. He would have to do some work upfront, but then be able to refer to the table as he needed to. I would rather have him working problems with the help of a multiplication table instead of him being so frustrated to the point of tears and feeling like a failure. Slowly I saw he was relying less and less on the table. This year I haven't seen him use a table once. He has come a long way. I'm glad I let him use the table and let him learn in his own time.

[Nestof3]

I guess what was worrying me as much as anything else, was that Saxon might not be inspiring parents to be great teachers, they way you are. I could be dead wrong about this (the Saxon part, not you being a great teacher :D).

 

 

This reminds me of how I react when a homeschooler tells me he or she is using Abeka for everything. I feel so "blah" about what a school day must look like in that home, but I've never used Abeka and I don't know HOW they use it.

 

I surely don't have all of the answers, I just know what works for our family. Other programs may work as well, but when I married his dad and started homeschooling him 11 months later, I didn't have much time to figure it all out (LOL) -- I did spend my entire summer before the school year learning about homeschooling and choosing what I would use (and being pregnant). I started with a school edition Scott Foresman textbook (which was fine because he was used to it and knew all of his facts by the fourth grade). I quit everything I started with and began afresh the next year. I chose Saxon, and now I have a cabinet full of Saxon 6/5 up to Saxon Advanced Mathematics, and since it worked the first time, I decided not to spend any extra money (I spend enough of that on the rest of homeschooling LOL).

 

I remember when I first started math with Nathan, it was in the form of word problems at the kitchen table with a pencil and scratch paper. I would pose simple problems that he could solve with his fingers. I wanted him to understand math before he understood facts and operations. In fact, I would go so far as to give him a math problem he couldn't get the answer easily to but that he could explain how to set up. I would always tell him that the answers would be easy to get but that I was concerned with how he would attempt to get the answer. This was all in fun -- usually during lunch. One or two problems was all it amounted to.

 

I remember one time Nathan was working on a "some, take away some" problem when Aaron walked in. He said, "That's easy, just subtract ___ from ___." I explained to Aaron that telling him that wasn't teaching him math. I try to get most of math to come from within them by their current understanding, if that makes sense. I tried to avoid those words like "subtract" at first.

 

And using objects and pictures are critical to me. I very much believe in moving from the concrete to the abstract.

 

Enjoy math! But whatever you do, stay away from Saxon. :)

[Kelli in TN]

I did not read the other responses so if I repeat someone please forgive me.

 

I allowed my kids to have a multiplication table taped to the top of their school desks while they were learning. When one child made NO effort to actually learn the facts I took his away and gave him a wall chart which I hung downstairs. Our classroom was upstairs. He had to run downstairs to look up math facts and that is when he decided to just learn them!!!

 

I am not opposed to "cheat sheets" of any sort during the learning process.

[TXMomof4]

Another thing I did - I made a blank times table in my spreadsheet, and I filled out what I knew he knew, like times 1 and times 2. Then I printed it out and gave him a blank form each morning. He filled out the table at the beginning of the day, and he could use it that day during math. As he learned more facts well, I put them in my spreadsheet so that after a while he only had a few stubborn facts that he filled out each day. When he had those, then I put the printed table in the pantry.

 

I love this idea! Brilliant!

[SunshineMom]

Coming into this late, my kids are not there yet, but I do have a suggestion. Sometimes kids need to have a trick with math. For instance, multiples of nine up to 9 can be found with your hands. Place your two hands up facing yourself, counting from your left to right. Ok, 3x9...put your left hand's third finger(3) down and then count how many fingers you have left from the down turned finger which is 7. You are left with 2 and a 7 which can be read as 27. This might be helpful for a beginner and over time they will be less dependent. If a child can skip count by 2's, 5's and 10's then they only have a few more to learn. I remember thinking as a child that math was like a game made of various rules in order to play, very concrete thinking. Tricks may be helpful.

[Becki in IN]

My eldest struggled with her facts. I finally let her use a chart and she eventually got them. My youngest dd uses a calculator, but she has brain damage that prevents her from remembering her facts. Giving her a calculator was a big step, but she is much happier now. I wish we had done it sooner.

[Sheila in OK]

Echoing the others here--let him use a chart. I tried *everything* with dd--flash cards, Math It, Calculadder, online drills, even Times Tales. NOTHING worked. I thought Times Tales was going to be the key, but even though we worked on it for weeks and weeks she couldn't get to point where she remembered the stories without the picture cards. So a couple months ago I just printed out a chart and let her use it while doing math (she's doing TT5). WE stopped all drilling for that period of time. Just last week, I went to the MUS website and had her do the online drills. She got them all in under 60 seconds. She never did that well when we were drilling daily! I still let her use the table as needed but I find she is using it less and less.

 

HTH!