Honest question about divorce -- for women

[MrsMe]

It takes two to tango most of the time unless one or the other has a "problem" which could have and should have been talked about previous to marriage. There's usually some sign before you marry.

[sassenach]

I really don't assign blame, especially if I am not close to the situation. There have been a few times when I mentally took sides. One was when my uncle (my mom's brother) cheated on my aunt with her brother's widow, in the middle of his daughter's leukemia treatment. I was pretty pissed at him. The other time was when during my best friends divorce from a drug addicted, abusive man. Aside from those 2 situations, I've never had the desire to assign blame to anyone.

[Nestof3]

It takes two to tango most of the time unless one or the other has a "problem" which could have and should have been talked about previous to marriage. There's usually some sign before you marry.

 

I have to say that I find it interesting that most people who have been divorced rarely reveal any way in which they were a problem in the marriage but freely give out information as to how their spouse was a problem. I was very relieved when my husband admitted several things he could have / should have done differently.

 

I would say that I can be as big of a pain in our current marriage as my husband is. ;)

[LilyK]

I have to say that I find it interesting that most people who have been divorced rarely reveal any way in which they were a problem in the marriage but freely give out information as to how their spouse was a problem. I was very relieved when my husband admitted several things he could have / should have done differently.

 

 

 

I find this to be true about most conflicts, not just divorce. When someone tries to come across as having done no wrong while assigning all the blame to the other party, I always see red flags. I'm not saying that it is not possible, but life experience has taught me that this is rarely the case. When my kids come to me with problems, our discussions usually go something like this..

"Ok, since the only person that you have any control over in this situation is you, let's not talk about that other person. Let's ask, "What could I have done differently. What have I learned to do differently in the future to better deal with this sort conflict."

 

I totally understand your relief that you dh was willing to look inward. That is a great quality. Blessings!:)

[CactusPair]

I guess I'm about the only one. Yes, I'll fess up. I usually automatically assume it's the man's fault. The divorces and troubled marriages that I have personally been witness to are due to the man's volatile behavior--*terrifying* tempers, emotional, mental, verbal, financial abuse, alcoholism or drug abuse, manipulation, a controlling grip over the wife.

 

In the cases I have witnessed or know about, the wife was long-suffering, angry, crushed--not perfect, not blameless, but feeling like she *had* to choose divorce or separation to save her soul, if not her health after years (even a decade-plus) of trying "to work it out". In other cases, the husband who had been cruel throughout the marriage simply left.

 

There is one divorce I know of that was instigated by the wife during what turned out to be an extreme bipolar breakdown. Once she was diagnosed and medicated she went back to her husband.

 

I don't know that many people, so my sample pool is small and I'm biased. I know it doesn't always work out in the ways I've described above. But this has been my experience.

[Peela]

I try not to take sides at all....and I try to remain friends to both. But often it is the woman who is my closer friend and I can get biased if I listen to her blaming too much. I have a friend who is still having issues with her ex because of custody issues, and I have had enough of hearing her stories about it- I just want her to find her anger and act, rather than complain to her friends all the time. I want her to find her power. He is really behaving selfishly (about their child), but she seems to not want to act decisively. its like, she tells her friends, we get angry for her, encourage her to act, but she doesn't.

However, he is part of my social circle too, and even though I have sympathised a lot with her and even got quite annoyed with him- face to face, I tend to just start fresh and remain open. I see no good can come from hating him just because she does. And I try to remember I haven't heard his side of the story, since we are not that close.

[OnTheBrink]

It takes two to tango most of the time unless one or the other has a "problem" which could have and should have been talked about previous to marriage. There's usually some sign before you marry.

 

Not always.

[Nestof3]

--*terrifying* tempers, emotional, mental, verbal, financial abuse, alcoholism or drug abuse, manipulation, a controlling grip over the wife.

 

 

I hear people speak of these traits often with men, but what do they look like in women? I hear women "verbally abuse their husbands as if it's a natural, expected thing. Constant nagging -- wouldn't that be controlling? Wanting a husband to do things the way the wife does them -- is that not controlling? Women are very good at manipulating by crying or getting hysterical. Women criticize when their husbands burp out loud. They criticize the movies they watch. They criticize the unhealthy foods they eat. They often speak of these things to their friends or in public.

 

Why is it when women do it, they get rallied support from other women, but when men do it, it's verbal abuse? I am sure the "verbal abuse" can get worse than my examples, but I would bet many women would consider their husband's criticisms and need for things to be done a certain way "verbal abuse and controlling behavior."

 

Women withhold sex to get even or get what they want as well.

 

I remember reading a book by Laura Schlesinger "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands," and she touches on this.

[Heather in Savannah]

It takes two to tango most of the time unless one or the other has a "problem" which could have and should have been talked about previous to marriage. There's usually some sign before you marry.

 

Hurt people are often masters at hiding their true self, because a huge fear is being rejected by others for being "damaged goods". Once the wedding takes place there is a sense of security and the true problems begin to manifest themselves.

[Joanne]

Dawn,

 

It's clear by the content of your post the you do not know much about verbal, emotional and abuse. Most of the content in your post describes poor communication and relational skiils. Certainly those behaviors erode and deteriorate the quality of a marriage. I'm sure Dr. Laura's book is helpful in that regard as are other materials.

 

However, they are not abuse and IMO few claim them as such. I'd caution anyone from labelling them as such *or* assuming claims of abuse are what is in your post.

 

Abuse is an insidious, progressive and very rarely rectified behavior. Far more women don't know they are being abused than those who claim abuse but aren't.

 

For self protection, self care and self preservation, I have studied this topic for over 3 years.

 

Know also that there is an inherent difference in power when a man raises his voice (not ok, but not necessarily abuse) and a woman raising hers. Know also that men, by far, abuse more than women. It's not politically correct to sat so but it's the reality. That is not meant to imply women don't abuse their spouses, just thatb it happens in far less numbers.

 

At first, I was hurt and offended by your trivialization of the actual bexperience of abuse. I am not now because your post is coming from a lack of information and knowledge.

[dragons in the flower bed]

Hurt people are often masters at hiding their true self, because a huge fear is being rejected by others for being "damaged goods". Once the wedding takes place there is a sense of security and the true problems begin to manifest themselves.

 

:iagree: Marriage and the birth of a first child are major events in a person's life. If mental illness has been hiding in the wings, these things can draw it out. How many people do you know who find religion when they have their first child, or settle down after a life of traveling after they have their first child? People change, and dramatic life changes can cause dramatic personality changes.

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: Marriage and the birth of a first child are major events in a person's life. If mental illness has been hiding in the wings, these things can draw it out. How many people do you know who find religion when they have their first child, or settle down after a life of traveling after they have their first child? People change, and dramatic life changes can cause dramatic personality changes.

But aren't those changes covered under, through sickness and health, for better and for worse?

 

Not trying to argue, but curious.

 

I've always heard, and at one point said, we've changed, I've changed, were different people now. My dh's response was that he married me, period. If he wouldn't have kept pushing, kept standing by his vows, we would've been divorced. Now, I see how right he was. Of course, I'm different and he's different, but that doesn't change the promise we made to each other, iykwIm.

 

In those instances, where mental illness rears its ugly head, hormones shift, chemicals balance and go out of whack, I've always wondered whether or not divorce was merited.

[Nestof3]

Dawn,

 

It's clear by the content of your post the you do not know much about verbal, emotional and abuse. Most of the content in your post describes poor communication and relational skiils. Certainly those behaviors erode and deteriorate the quality of a marriage. I'm sure Dr. Laura's book is helpful in that regard as are other materials.

 

However, they are not abuse and IMO few claim them as such. I'd caution anyone from labelling them as such *or* assuming claims of abuse are what is in your post.

 

Abuse is an insidious, progressive and very rarely rectified behavior. Far more women don't know they are being abused than those who claim abuse but aren't.

 

For self protection, self care and self preservation, I have studied this topic for over 3 years.

 

Know also that there is an inherent difference in power when a man raises his voice (not ok, but not necessarily abuse) and a woman raising hers. Know also that men, by far, abuse more than women. It's not politically correct to sat so but it's the reality. That is not meant to imply women don't abuse their spouses, just thatb it happens in far less numbers.

 

At first, I was hurt and offended by your trivialization of the actual bexperience of abuse. I am not now because your post is coming from a lack of information and knowledge.

 

Joanne,

 

I am not surprised that you were hurt and offended at first, and I am glad that you took time to consider what I said. You seem to very quickly get hurt during discussions on marriage. I HAVE heard women refer to the things I mentioned as "verbal abuse." I did mention that I am sure the sort of verbal abuse can get far worse and that I was not trying to trivialize those by the ones I mentioned.

[OnTheBrink]

I hear people speak of these traits often with men, but what do they look like in women? I hear women "verbally abuse their husbands as if it's a natural, expected thing. Constant nagging -- wouldn't that be controlling? Wanting a husband to do things the way the wife does them -- is that not controlling? Women are very good at manipulating by crying or getting hysterical. Women criticize when their husbands burp out loud. They criticize the movies they watch. They criticize the unhealthy foods they eat. They often speak of these things to their friends or in public.

 

Why is it when women do it, they get rallied support from other women, but when men do it, it's verbal abuse? I am sure the "verbal abuse" can get worse than my examples, but I would bet many women would consider their husband's criticisms and need for things to be done a certain way "verbal abuse and controlling behavior."

 

Women withhold sex to get even or get what they want as well.

 

I remember reading a book by Laura Schlesinger "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands," and she touches on this.

 

:iagree:

 

I think the whole feminist movement has trivialized the damage women can do to men, verbally and emotionally. Withholding affection, sex, IS emotional abuse. The ripping apart, disguised as nagging, whining, passive-aggressive "gotchas!" are emotionally abusive. Putting the husband down to friends, in front of him or not, is abusive. Abuse can go both ways and neither party is excused or justified of it.

[dragons in the flower bed]

But aren't those changes covered under, through sickness and health, for better and for worse?

 

Yes, they are, if those are the vows you took. I learned from my experience and will never again take such vows.

 

I could not get him help. If I could, even now, if I figured out a way to do it, I still would. It would be nice to have the man I married back. I rather liked him. If I could somehow make him be that public persona all the time... that would be so much better than this.

 

I had a crawling baby and a toddler, and we had just moved in to a house with one big open upstairs, a finished attic loft. We were installing a baby gate at the top of the very steep (old house) stairway. There was no rail and it was a straight drop down.

 

Well, he got frustrated with his inability to get the screw through the plastic, and he began to scream. The baby started to cry and crawl to me and that made him really lose it. He threw the screwdriver at me as I was running for the far corner of the loft to shield the baby. He then ran down the stairs. I was gently, as quietly as possible so as not to enrage the ex, calling the toddler to me (who was also upstairs). Then the lights went out. It was night, pitch black, and my baby and toddler were loose on that loft with that steep drop, toolbox stuff scattered. He had turned off the electricity at the breaker in the basement. Then he left, just got in his car and left, screaming that he was so incompetent that we were all going to die.

 

A neighbor had seen him screaming and heard the baby wailing and called the police. When they arrived, I was the one shook up and crying, still sitting in the dark holding the baby and the toddler. We were moving in. I couldn't find the flashlight in the boxes in the dark. I didn't know where the circuit breaker was. My ex was coming back at some point, and if things hadn't been returned to normal, he might freak again. So I was visibly shaking when the police arrived. I had to convince them not to take me away. They were deeply concerned for my sanity. Ex came back while they were there, all calm, and told them, "Don't worry. She's just a little loopy this time of the month. I'll get her her meds." (I wasn't on any meds, and I hadn't had a period in three years because I'd been pregnant and breastfeeding.)

 

So who would have believed me? I was lucky I got custody of my kids. If the judge had checked police records, they would have seen that I was the loopy one and he was the sane one.

 

I had to leave to save our lives. I'm pretty sure that trumps other arguments. I don't believe in breaking legal & sacred vows for pettier reasons. (Even more so, I don't believe in making sacred vows about such changeable beings, thus my current unmarried state. But that's another story.)

 

And there was no sign. There was no hint. He was the calmest, gentlest person before our first child was born. He had tons of friends and they loved him. Something about being responsible for another little life just made him snap, but even after he snapped, he hid it from the rest of the world really well.

 

I did learn later that he had abused people before during times of great stress. His first year in college he was accused of rape, and also during puberty once. I didn't know that until I did a background check during the divorce process.

 

Not trying to argue, but curious.

 

Same here. This is cheerful discussion, not grumpy defending.

Edited March 3, 2009 by dragons in the flower bed

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I mostly just feel sad about it. It takes 2 people to make a marriage, and there are times when one checks out, but, in my experience, there isn't one person totally at fault. I don't blame one more than the other, usually.

[lionfamily1999]

Yes, they are, if those are the vows you took. I learned from my experience and will never again take such vows.

 

Same here. This is cheerful discussion, not grumpy defending.

I have a migraine coming on, so I'm typing with my eyes closed, for the most part...

 

I respect your decision not to do so, not to say I disagree, but rather, have respect for you for having decided such and standing by it.

 

Until I can keep my eyes open (without pain), I'm going off line. Here's to tomorrow, and no screaming head aches....

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree:

 

I think the whole feminist movement has trivialized the damage women can do to men, verbally and emotionally. Withholding affection, sex, IS emotional abuse. The ripping apart, disguised as nagging, whining, passive-aggressive "gotchas!" are emotionally abusive. Putting the husband down to friends, in front of him or not, is abusive. Abuse can go both ways and neither party is excused or justified of it.

:iagree:

[Nestof3]

Rose,

 

I am so sorry for you. How terrible!

 

I also hope he got the help he needed because I cannot imagine anyone would want to live with themselves being like that.

Edited March 3, 2009 by nestof3

[Scarlett]

I don't assume anything unless I am very very close to a couple.

 

Those who think it takes two to ruin a marriage are very very mistaken. Both people in a marriage are imperfect sure, but ONE can easily destroy a marriage. It doesn't matter how hard ONE person works, if the other person in the marriage won't stop say... sleeping with every girl in town, there is no hope for the marriage.

 

 

That is not my experience, but my best friends....I was very close to her husband too and he just would. not. stop.

[TravelingChris]

I was thinking about this and figured out that I only knew four couples in the 23 years of our marriage who we knew while they were married and then they divorced. This is with us living in many different places and attending many different churches in that time. Out of those four, two I didn't assign any blame. One I had suspected something was off with the husband and it turned out that he disliked their third child (the only girl and one that was born less than a year after her older brother) and that he had been hiding assets for years and left suddenly when he accumulated enough and filed for divorce and custody of the boys. He didn't get it and later stopped working just so he wouldn't have to pay child support. He alienated his sons since they didn't like the way he treated their mom and sister. Shad had tried marriage counseling before he abandoned them with several churches and the pastors tried to talk reason into him. He refused to change his ways.

The other I assigned blame was a mother who suddenly left the close in age husband and moved in with a much younger man who worked in the same place as they all did. She also left the children who were devasted. The little girl started always looking sad and her younger brother regressed. Mom and new boyfriend were expecting a new baby about about a year after she left.

I am a Christian but in both of the two cases where I assign blame, I wouldn't have a problem with the divorce.

[*********]

Far more women don't know they are being abused than those who claim abuse but aren't.

 

<snip>

 

Know also that men, by far, abuse more than women. It's not politically correct to sat so but it's the reality. That is not meant to imply women don't abuse their spouses, just thatb it happens in far less numbers.

 

Joanne, I'd be curious to know what information you base these two claims on.

 

To be quite honest, I know not a single woman that is being abused but doesn't know it. To the contrary, I know of several women who have claimed some sort of abuse when ending a relationship that quite frankly, I didn't believe. I think sometimes, a woman wants out for other reasons, but claiming abuse of some sort makes it more 'acceptable' for her to leave, both to herself and to others.

 

I do readily acknowledge that there are people, both women and men, who abuse or are abused in relationships. I don't deny that it happens, or even that it is sometimes severe. I also readily admit that it is very possible that the women that I know who have divorced, claiming abuse (in my case, they all claimed verbal abuse/controlling behavior), could very well have been experiencing such horrific abuse by the man that they felt no safe alternative than to leave, and I just never saw it/heard about it/experienced it at any time during their relationship.

 

Also, in the only relationship that I've ever had intimate exposure to/knowledge of that I would consider 'verbally abusive', it was the wife verbally abusing the husband. Even so, the couple is still not divorced.

 

These are just my experiences.

 

Obviously you and I come at this subject from different viewpoints. I'm sincerely trying to understand yours. Not necessarily so as to agree with you, but I'd at least like to understand your viewpoint.

[*********]

:iagree:

 

I think the whole feminist movement has trivialized the damage women can do to men, verbally and emotionally. Withholding affection, sex, IS emotional abuse. The ripping apart, disguised as nagging, whining, passive-aggressive "gotchas!" are emotionally abusive. Putting the husband down to friends, in front of him or not, is abusive. Abuse can go both ways and neither party is excused or justified of it.

 

:iagree: Well said, Michelle.

[Scarlett]

Joanne, I'd be curious to know what information you base these two claims on.

 

To be quite honest, I know not a single woman that is being abused but doesn't know it. .

 

If the wife doesn't realize it, it is very doubtful you would know about it.

 

 

I also readily admit that it is very possible that the women that I know who have divorced, claiming abuse (in my case, they all claimed verbal abuse/controlling behavior), could very well have been experiencing such horrific abuse by the man that they felt no safe alternative than to leave, and I just never saw it/heard about it/experienced it at any time during their relationship. .

 

Well, no. That is not how abusers work. They don't let outsiders see it.

 

And I know I'm not Joanne...:)...but there ya go...JMO

[dragons in the flower bed]

I have a migraine coming on, so I'm typing with my eyes closed, for the most part...

 

I respect your decision not to do so, not to say I disagree, but rather, have respect for you for having decided such and standing by it.

 

Until I can keep my eyes open (without pain), I'm going off line. Here's to tomorrow, and no screaming head aches....

 

Oh yikes. I trust your head feels better if you're reading this. I never remember to come back to these threads that move so fast. I get one or two emails and then no more unless I visit it again right away.

[runninmommy]

Dawn' date='[/color']

It's clear by the content of your post the you do not know much about verbal, emotional and abuse.

 

How incredibly condescending.

 

 

Abuse comes in many different forms. 3 years of study and (presumably) some experience with abuse does not an expert make.

Edited March 3, 2009 by runninmommy
fixing quote

[Mamagistra]

Yes, they are, if those are the vows you took. I learned from my experience...

 

:001_huh: Wow, Rose. :grouphug::grouphug:

[HeartIntact]

I find nothing politically incorrect about stating the painfully obvious truth that males are more likely to abuse females than the other way around. Men's physical strength is generally superior to that of women, so the abusers abuse in part because they can. Males' financial strength typically overwhelms that of women in many parts of the world. They can nonphysically abuse by wielding the threat of withdrawal of support.

 

Political correctness for the sake of sensitivity is understandable and maybe desirable but we cannot afford to allow it to obliviate reason.

[Joanne]

Dawn' date='[/color']

It's clear by the content of your post the you do not know much about verbal, emotional and abuse.

 

How incredibly condescending.

 

 

Abuse comes in many different forms. 3 years of study and (presumably) some experience with abuse does not an expert make.

 

The post I responded to trivialized rthe experience of abuse and showed lack of information about *abuse*.

 

It's an important topic; one many people miss the mark on in discussion and in relationship with victims.

 

I'd say intense work to recognize and escape my abuser followed by research, therapy and helping others gives me a legitimate plarform on which to speak on the topic.

 

If you'd like to remove the "presumably" from your post, I'd be happy to post a detailed listing of the incidents I endured in order to claim a bit of knowledge on the subject.

 

And, no, it wasn't about nagging, witholding sex, talking bad about my (x)dh.

[lionfamily1999]

I find nothing politically incorrect about stating the painfully obvious truth that males are more likely to abuse females than the other way around. Men's physical strength is generally superior to that of women, so the abusers abuse in part because they can. Males' financial strength typically overwhelms that of women in many parts of the world. They can nonphysically abuse by wielding the threat of withdrawal of support.

 

Political correctness for the sake of sensitivity is understandable and maybe desirable but we cannot afford to allow it to obliviate reason.

I've known more men than women that were/are being abused in their relationships. The diff? They can't speak up, who wants to be the man cowering infront of his wife? Who supports the guy that cries out, 'she's mean to me, she does horrible things, she's cruel, she's crazy!' Some guys do, with a wink a smile and an eye roll. It's assumed to be a joke and the guys that push it become suspect.

 

My uncle could not get custody of his sons until his x abandoned them one by one. No one believed she was off her rocker, and he refused to testify to the things she had said and done to him. He said it was for his sons, but I'm sure there was pride in that.

 

A friend of ours is finally getting a divorce from a woman that used to belittle him infront of everyone. He didn't initiate the divorce, she did. She said he wasn't even a man anymore. I knew more about their sex life than I did my own. I knew his every short coming, I knew his every 'wrong.' She broadcast it at every single get together.

 

My brother married a nut job that had him changing jobs and moving... to make her happy. It took him years to figure out she was unhappy because she was nuts. She could never be happy. Once they were divorced she would call and say the most atrocious things. My brother was incredibly hurt, but he refused to do anything about it, because he was a man... he had to stand up and take it like a man, by God.

 

Men abuse women and women abuse men. It's not because I want to be PC that I say this. It's because it's taken me years to really see the damage that some of the women in my life have caused the men that love them. We don't call it abuse, we say they're pu*** whipped, we say they're weak, we say they can't hack it, we say the women are PMSing, we say it's her perogative, we say she's 'training' him.

 

Why would they come forward? Why would they fight back? So they can be a laughing stock?

Oh yikes. I trust your head feels better if you're reading this. I never remember to come back to these threads that move so fast. I get one or two emails and then no more unless I visit it again right away.

As long as I keep my left eye closed I'm okay... does that make any sense at all? Anyway, I'm just checking in, lol, as if you were worried sick or something.

 

I was going to ask if you ever second guessed yourself, coming out of that situation. Now I realize what a dumb question that is, of course you did, doesn't everyone? But what if's are pointless. IOW, subject dropped, or rather, gently set down and stepped away from. :)

[Guest janainaz]

I have to say that I find it interesting that most people who have been divorced rarely reveal any way in which they were a problem in the marriage but freely give out information as to how their spouse was a problem. I was very relieved when my husband admitted several things he could have / should have done differently.

 

I would say that I can be as big of a pain in our current marriage as my husband is. ;)

 

ditto that.

[Joanne]

To be quite honest, I know not a single woman that is being abused but doesn't know it. To the contrary, I know of several women who have claimed some sort of abuse when ending a relationship that quite frankly, I didn't believe. I think sometimes, a woman wants out for other reasons, but claiming abuse of some sort makes it more 'acceptable' for her to leave, both to herself and to others.

 

I can't comment to the situations you know personally. I can say, in general, that abusers are typically clever (and often charming, "kind" and publically presentable) people. And abused women, by the time they are able to do something about it, are less than likely to take the time to explain it "all" to everyone.

 

I can explain what happens with regard to the insidious nature of abuse in intimate relationships. Obviously, the male does not start out with insults, you know? I remember the first incident with my xh. He, seemingly out of nowhere "lost it". I learned later that abusers set up incidents in their head, justifying a planned outrage over something unrelated to the incident they seem to blow up on. At that time, he did not call name, just exploded in rage because I told him I didn't have the energy to listen to him talk about work that moment. (I had just spent the day trying to put someone in treatment for alcoholism.) He drove me home (we only had one vehicle at the time), completely "venting" loudly. He mentioned me not having a job (I had just moved here) and how there "were crumbs on the kitchen counter). I was stunned by the explosion. It was so.....odd. But as he left and the intensity abated, I reasoned 1) If it were *that* odd, I would have left and gone back to FL and 2) We had just moved here, he was worried about money, he was worried about doing well in his new assignment at work.......

 

That, combined with an apology that seemed to match the intensity of the outburst served to *normalize* the explosion. It became our normal and incorporated into what was becoming my life. It seemed so normal that I assumed everyone had such moments.

 

And the next time? It was the same, but a little bit *more*.

 

Over the course of 15 years, a lot of behavior was normalized. By then, I was overweight, depressed, shut down and without ability to recognize or fight it. Over those years, we went from "crumbs on the kitchen counter" to calling me words I can't type here in front of my children.

 

The above it not unique. It's the same story of most abused women (emotional, financial and verbal) and of many physically abused women.

 

When I left my DH and remarried later, I went back to a therapist when I had insurance coverage. I asked her "Why didn't you tell me I was being abused?"

 

Her answer: "Joanne? I did".

 

I now know that my abuse began when he chose me, and I accepted. He was (mostly) able to keep it hidden. It was NEVER related to stress or situations. He was able to not abuse our Pastors, my sister, my parents, his kids (although I believe exposure to this = abuse of kids), his bosses, employees and work peers.

 

Church members didn't know (for the most part, a few here did spot a few things).

 

To answer one of your questions, it's unlikely you'd know if they were abused. And that if anyone around you is being abused, it's very, very common for them to not recognize it (the abuse) as abuse and not normal.

[runninmommy]

The post I responded to trivialized rthe experience of abuse and showed lack of information about *abuse*.

I do not think it trivialized or lacked information. Like I said, There are more than one kind of abuse or one definition of abuse. Just because you have suffered a worse form of abuse does not mean other forms are not just as abusive. FWIW, I do speak from experience. 17 years worth. I would be the last person to trivialize abuse of *any* kind. However, my experience does not negate other forms of abuse or others experiences.

 

 

I'd say intense work to recognize and escape my abuser followed by research, therapy and helping others gives me a legitimate plarform on which to speak on the topic.

 

I too, have a legitimate platform, but it does not give me the *right* to speak as an expert and be condescending to people who happen to have a different view/definition. Give helpful and informative advice and experience? Yes, but not with the tone that was expressed in your post.

 

If you'd like to remove the "presumably" from your post, I'd be happy to post a detailed listing of the incidents I endured in order to claim a bit of knowledge on the subject.

 

I like my post just the way it was. If you would like to share your experience, that is your prerogative. Editing my post is not necessary in order for you to do so.

 

And, no, it wasn't about nagging, witholding sex, talking bad about my (x)dh.

 

My remarks had to do with your tone, not your contribution.

Edited March 3, 2009 by runninmommy
Quoting wrong today

[OnTheBrink]

 

And, no, it wasn't about nagging, witholding sex, talking bad about my (x)dh.

 

You don't believe the above behaviors are abusive? Or was that just a dig at me personally, since I'm the one that said it? OH, and btw, my post about the above wasn't about YOU. It was a general statement directed to Dawn in regard to the Dr. Laura book she referred to.

[Joanne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanne

 

And, no, it wasn't about nagging, witholding sex, talking bad about my (x)dh.

You don't believe the above behaviors are abusive? Or was that just a dig at me personally, since I'm the one that said it? OH, and btw, my post about the above wasn't about YOU. It was a general statement directed to Dawn in regard to the Dr. Laura book she referred to.

 

*sigh* Michelle, I always feel so at odds with you. That's probably my fault as we come at situations from different perspectives and my posting style is adversarial. It's sad, though, since we actually have more in common than not.

 

My post was not a dig at you at all; not directly or passive aggressively.

 

I don't think nagging, witholding sex or talking about about your spouse is abuse. I don't think they are healthy, functional or good; but I don't think they are abuse.

 

I think they are worthy of confrontation, needing change but not abuse. I think that left unchanged or untreated, they are worthy of third party/professional/Spiritual Leader intervention but they are not abuse.

 

I think they are relationship killers, but not abuse.

 

I'm sorry that my words flagged yours, I did not mean my post to be personal.

[Joanne]

Camille,

 

You are right about my tone in the post you mentioned. I am sorry.

[OnTheBrink]

*sigh* Michelle, I always feel so at odds with you. That's probably my fault as we come at situations from different perspectives and my posting style is adversarial. It's sad, though, since we actually have more in common than not.

 

My post was not a dig at you at all; not directly or passive aggressively.

 

I don't think nagging, witholding sex or talking about about your spouse is abuse. I don't think they are healthy, functional or good; but I don't think they are abuse.

 

I think they are worthy of confrontation, needing change but not abuse. I think that left unchanged or untreated, they are worthy of third party/professional/Spiritual Leader intervention but they are not abuse.

 

I think they are relationship killers, but not abuse.

 

I'm sorry that my words flagged yours, I did not mean my post to be personal.

 

Yes, we are often at odds. I'd be happy to discuss it privately, if you wish.

[Joanne]

Joanne,

 

I am not surprised that you were hurt and offended at first, and I am glad that you took time to consider what I said. You seem to very quickly get hurt during discussions on marriage. I HAVE heard women refer to the things I mentioned as "verbal abuse." I did mention that I am sure the sort of verbal abuse can get far worse and that I was not trying to trivialize those by the ones I mentioned.

 

 

Dawn,

 

This is very true and accurate. I am super sensitive on the topic. You don't have to agree with my super sensitivity. On this forum (and similarly populated places), I have been told:

 

I didn't work hard enough

I should read CTBHH

I should read POAPW

I'm not submissive "enough"

I thought of myself too much

I thought of the kids too much

The only acceptable reason for divorce is adultery

People use the word abuse very loosely

My children are from a broken home

My remarriage is adultery

My divorce is sin but it's ok, I'm forgiven

 

This is not about curriculum choice, mowhawked hair, spanking or not....this is about the very foundation of my children's lives and my spiritual walk.

[runninmommy]

Camille,

 

You are right about my tone in the post you mentioned. I am sorry.

 

 

That means so much. How kind of you to say so.

[Guest sarathan]

I think I automatically remain neutral and say that it takes two to ruin a marriage. I always feel very sorry for the family as a whole, especially if there are children involved. Divorce is a very sad thing. :(

[swellmomma]

I don't necessarily blame the man right away but I am much quicker to offer support for the woman involved until I know more. My own 1st marriage was very volitile, I was before the wedding but it got worse in a hurry. In my case it was too many stressors at one time, We barely knew each other, had 2 babies, he got out of the army which meant dealing with the transition back to civi life, was unemployeed, he was drinking A LOT (and not just drinking but passing out and vomitting all over the floor etc) and I was dealing with undiagnosed PPD (My PPD makes me angry not sad, so I was a real *&^%(# to put up with), we both cheated(me to get back at him after finidng out he cheated while I was delivering my 1st born) plus it was my first relationship to last more than a few months. For a few months near the end of our marriage I was trying to change my own behaviours, but like others said it takes 2 to make the marriage work, and only 1 to ruin in. Our marriage was on a precipice, and one night after drinking he hit me and raped me. FOr me that was a deal breaker. We had been through a lot and given time I think we could have overcome all of those things, but that night ended it completely for me. I had been abused as a 16 year old by a boyfriend and swore never again, all it took was that one night for me to completely shut my heart off for my husband. This past Sunday night made 9 years since I left my husband, we are still however married, not divorced yet. The mess in the whole marriage was certainly not 1-sided but that incident that was the final straw certainly was. Given his actions since the separation (cutting off all contact with the kids, no child support for the first 8 years of the split) tells me I made the right choice, that things were only going to get worse for us.

 

When I hear of someone else divorcing I tend to wonder if they had similar stuff going on in their marriage that was in mine that I can offer and understanding shoulder to, but I try very very hard not to blame one party over another.

[lionfamily1999]

*sigh* Michelle, I always feel so at odds with you. That's probably my fault as we come at situations from different perspectives and my posting style is adversarial. It's sad, though, since we actually have more in common than not.

 

My post was not a dig at you at all; not directly or passive aggressively.

 

I don't think nagging, witholding sex or talking about about your spouse is abuse. I don't think they are healthy, functional or good; but I don't think they are abuse.

 

I think they are worthy of confrontation, needing change but not abuse. I think that left unchanged or untreated, they are worthy of third party/professional/Spiritual Leader intervention but they are not abuse.

 

I think they are relationship killers, but not abuse.

 

I'm sorry that my words flagged yours, I did not mean my post to be personal.

I have to disagree about nagging, no sex, etc. not being abusive. Nagging is normally intended to show the person that they are not ----- enough. It is emotional abuse, one that tends to be accepted in society, even laughed at, but that does not make it right. A person can only hear how worthless they are so many times before they start to believe it. They can only hear their downfalls so many times before it starts to eat away at them.

 

Withholding sex, for many men, is the equivalent of withholding love. Because physical intamacy (sp sorry, I took something for my headache and now I can only half-think) is equated with love (for many men) refusing it is aking to saying, 'I don't have to love you. When you make me angry I do not love you. I can stop loving you at any time, whenever it suits me.'

 

As for disparaging remarks, tearing the other person down, creating an ideal 'self' for public and a weaker, lesser self for the spouse is exactly what so many men do to protect themselves and make their victims appear the aggressor. Regardless of which person is doing it, it is abusive or at the very least a harbinger of abuse.

 

I think your perspective actually hinders you, as far as seeing that men can be equally as abused as women. As my father told me, 'we [men] have all the same emotions and feelings you women do, we just don't feel the need to show it. We bleed the same, we hurt the same and if you could see us on the inside, you'd know we cry the same.'

 

Not all men are monsters, but all people can experience abuse and it hurts just the same.

[Jill- OK]

I don't look for someone to blame or take sides with.

 

As others have said, I think "How sad", and worry about the kids.

 

My belief system won't allow me to divorce my husband. Even for adultery. (I believe you can legally and physically protect yourself without divorce, for those wondering about abuse). He won't divorce me, either...it just won't happen. Now, that doesn't mean that I harshly judge others who choose differently, even if I don't agree.

 

I'd never say "It takes two to ruin a marriage", because I know better. One person can do it just fine, on their own.

 

I'd never say "You knew what you were getting into", because I know that people can change, even after years of marriage.

 

I'd never call someone "selfish" for leaving without hearing a ridiculous reason from their own lips. You can be so miserable, tied to a particular person, that you can sink into a suicidal depression. Help is out there, and it's possible to get out of a depression like that without divorcing...but for the person who can't see any other way, and has that soul-knawing ache going on...I can't be harsh. I can disagree, and feel bad about their choice, for them or their kids, but I'm not going to harshly judge. You can't know a pain unless you've experienced it, and judgement towards a sufferer from a place of comfort doesn't really help anyone.

 

You can believe what you believe and still not know everything, KWIM?

Edited March 3, 2009 by Jill, OK

[Jill- OK]

I have to disagree about nagging, no sex, etc. not being abusive. Nagging is normally intended to show the person that they are not ----- enough. It is emotional abuse...

 

Withholding sex, for many men, is the equivalent of withholding love.'

 

I don't disagree that witholding sex is the equivalent of witholding love, for men, anymore that I would disagree that witholding communication or "pillow talk" would be like witholding love for women.

 

But I don't think that witholding kind words or any kind of communication frorm a woman would be seriously considered 'abuse'.

 

Abuse generally involves power, and some level of intimidation. Most women I know nag because they feel powerless, and the nagging generally doesn't force the men into action (intimidation). So...I agree with Joanne about this not equaling abuse. Relationship killers? Yes. Disrespectful/unkind behavior? Sure.

 

But not abuse.

 

(I hate to quibble, but anything and everything being labelled "abuse" is sort of a sore spot for me, lol. I share your belief that men can be abused, and I know it happens...I just think it's rare because we still have a societal setup that has men in the position of power more often, as the default. No argument intended...just expressing another opinion.)

[Trivium Academy]

deleted

Edited March 4, 2009 by Trivium Academy

[lionfamily1999]

I don't disagree that witholding sex is the equivalent of witholding love, for men, anymore that I would disagree that witholding communication or "pillow talk" would be like witholding love for women.

 

But I don't think that witholding kind words or any kind of communication frorm a woman would be seriously considered 'abuse'.

 

Abuse generally involves power, and some level of intimidation. Most women I know nag because they feel powerless, and the nagging generally doesn't force the men into action (intimidation). So...I agree with Joanne about this not equaling abuse. Relationship killers? Yes. Disrespectful/unkind behavior? Sure.

 

But not abuse.

 

(I hate to quibble, but anything and everything being labelled "abuse" is sort of a sore spot for me, lol. I share your belief that men can be abused, and I know it happens...I just think it's rare because we still have a societal setup that has men in the position of power more often, as the default. No argument intended...just expressing another opinion.)

I've known men that were broken by nagging. Insidious, cruel words, constantly flung at them until they finally shut down. As soon as they reach home or wake up in the morning, there it comes and there they go. They might be there physically, but mentally they've completely shut down.

 

The power that naggers wield is the power to disembowel someone with words. To cut them down so rapidly and with such consistency that there is no fight left in them.

 

You never, you should, I should've, you are, you were, you aren't. It goes and goes and goes and for the men who face the worst of it, it kills off a part of them. They stop caring, they stop living outwardly once they have reached 'home.' Not all nagging is abusive, but I do think the intentions of most nagging is hurt the other person. To point out what they lack, what they don't do right, what they should do better. It's not constructive, it's cruel.

 

I didn't think I said it did... lol, I'm on pain killers at the second and a little slooow. ;) Looked back and understood where you were coming from. Removing love and even the cold shoulder have been equated with emotional abuse, for the reasons I listed. It implies that the person could drop their spouse as easy as a bad habit, or even easier. It implies that love will be removed as a punishment for transgressions. If you don't agree with me, then I will not love you. If you do not do as I say, then I will not love you. It is very, very controlling.

Edited March 3, 2009 by lionfamily1999
oops :)

[Joanne]

I have to disagree about nagging, no sex, etc. not being abusive. Nagging is normally intended to show the person that they are not ----- enough. It is emotional abuse, one that tends to be accepted in society, even laughed at, but that does not make it right. A person can only hear how worthless they are so many times before they start to believe it. They can only hear their downfalls so many times before it starts to eat away at them.

 

Withholding sex, for many men, is the equivalent of withholding love. Because physical intamacy (sp sorry, I took something for my headache and now I can only half-think) is equated with love (for many men) refusing it is aking to saying, 'I don't have to love you. When you make me angry I do not love you. I can stop loving you at any time, whenever it suits me.'

 

As for disparaging remarks, tearing the other person down, creating an ideal 'self' for public and a weaker, lesser self for the spouse is exactly what so many men do to protect themselves and make their victims appear the aggressor. Regardless of which person is doing it, it is abusive or at the very least a harbinger of abuse.

 

I think your perspective actually hinders you, as far as seeing that men can be equally as abused as women. As my father told me, 'we [men] have all the same emotions and feelings you women do, we just don't feel the need to show it. We bleed the same, we hurt the same and if you could see us on the inside, you'd know we cry the same.'

 

Not all men are monsters, but all people can experience abuse and it hurts just the same.

 

I don't know what to say except to refer you to the two posts in which I talk about the behaviors in question as being quality of life destroyers, marriage killers, worthy of confrontation and even third party intervention.

 

I do think, however, that we have different definitions of the word "nag" as it relates to behavior.

 

I bolded the sections that I'd like to point out. I think men can be equally abused, but I do not believe that it happens in the same numbers. Hurt = hurt and abuse = abuse. I'm not hindered; I'm not sexist; I'm not trying to posit women as the only spouses being abused.

 

Again, though, for an understanding of how I feel about witholding sex (and are we talking about *sex* or witholding all affections such as verbal affirmation, playfulness, physical exchanges?) and nagging, please read the words I've already posted on the topic.

[Joanne]

The power that naggers wield is the power to disembowel someone with words. To cut them down so rapidly and with such consistency that there is no fight left in them.

 

This is not what I think of when I read and discuss the word "nag". The behavior and dynamic you mention that I quoted above is not what *I* am posting about when I discuss nagging.

[OnTheBrink]

This is not what I think of when I read and discuss the word "nag". The behavior and dynamic you mention that I quoted above is not what *I* am posting about when I discuss nagging.

 

I don't know how to double quote. But, I think we're talking about different definitions of nagging.

 

There's: Will you take out the trash? Will you take out the trash? Will you take out the trash?

 

And: Will you take out the trash? How come you can't do one simple thing I ask? I work around here, too, you know! You think you can come home and just sit on your a$$ and I have to do it all? What are you, 5? Am I your mommy? TAKE OUT THE F-ING TRASH!

 

The abusive nagging is the latter. The former is just annoying.

 

OH, and, I think anything that tears the other down, no matter how innocuous it might sound, is abusive. Veiled threats, veiled or backhanded insults, controlling what and who you can see, allowing or not allowing certain friends, belittling disguised as teasing. Refusing intimate relations as a punishment or weapon. In my state, refusing relations is grounds for divorce, calling it mental abuse. Abuse takes many forms and many levels of intensity. The abuse I experienced (or you, or her, or him, or whomever) may not be the abuse someone else experiences, but it's still abuse.

Edited March 3, 2009 by OnTheBrink

[Joanne]

Michelle,

 

I completely agree with your post. And, at least for this thread, understand some of our disconnect. Your first example is what I am talking about when I say "nagging". The second is abuse, clearly.

 

As far as sex, I see differences there. A spouse can not have sex because the situation in the marriage temporily does not foster intimacy. That happens and is not emotionally abusive. Witholding it (or other intimacy and affection) as punishment or manipulatively is abuse.