Very relaxed homeschooling-- what do you think?

[swellmomma]

I suppose Unschooling can also go here.

 

What are your thoughts when you read/hear about people with 10 yr olds etc who can't read, don't write, and their parents talk about how they don't want to coerce their kids at all; the reason they hs in the first place is so the children don't have to read textbooks or learn about something that doesn't interest them etc.

 

 

 

I have known a couple of people like this who say they are relaxed or unschoolers, but they really give people who are relaxed or unschooling a bad name. I judge them quite harshly as being lazy and neglegent of their child's education. I am not talking about people with kids who have special needs that delay the onset of those skills, but parents who are too lazy to take 10 minutes a day to work on basic skills like reading irk me. I typically don't care how people school their own kids, once the child learns to read, but it is pretty hard to become self educated in anything if you can't read and no one is taking the time to introduce you to new ideas. The people I knew who were relaxed homeschoolers or unschoolers worked very hard at presenting ideas to their kids in out of the box ways, and taught their kids to read etc even if they did not use a curric to do so. Non-schoolers on the other hand should be charged with child abuse imo for not providing their child with any chance at a normal future, which requires basic skills like reading and numeracy.

[hillfarm]

The term unschooling, like so many other words in our language, has been co-opted by so many different groups and people for so many different purposes that it is quite difficult to even begin to discuss it, since we are all on so many different pages.

 

IMO, it all comes down to the parent's goals for their children. If it is to open their lives to an amazing array of possibilities that are facilitated by the child's natural abilities and interests, then I know of a couple of unschooling families who are doing a great job of educating their children.

 

However, if the parent's choices are effectively limiting their children, whether intentionally or accidentally, then I feel we are right to question the quality of the education being provided.

 

Another family I know claims to be unschooling and focusing on a rural, farm-based lifestyle for their dd. I believe they describe their entire educational philosophy as "tomato staking", making their children follow them around all day and learn to do all the activities they are doing. Unfortunately, it will be very difficult for this child to ever do anything else. She is growing up with very few "tools" in her toolbox of learning and therefore will be limited as to how she will be able to interact in the world around her. Her mother proudly exclaims that her dd will be able to grow, process, and can food for her family. That's fine, but what if she also wants to and has need to become involved in herbal medicine, art, or a licensed profession? She can't read the texts well enough to comprehend them, she has no idea of how to conduct any research, she hasn't been taught much in the way of logic. This child will have a very difficult time breaking away from the mold her mother has cast for her by limiting the child's education. And I honestly believe that is the mother's intent.

 

I believe education is a tool we use to enhance our children's lives and future opportunities. Yes, my dd knows how to grow, process, and can food too. But she also does quite well in her academic work and at the ripe old age of 10 says she wants to be a pet/animal products designer when she grows up. I hope to educate her with the skills to be able to do that or anything else that strikes her fancy or becomes a necessity. I see education as a way to expand her horizons, not limit them.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think you would be shocked by what people feed their children! I know someone who's kid WILL ONLY EAT: macaroni and cheese, yogurt, chicken nuggets, sugary cereal, chips/crackers for snacks. :eek: She says it is all he will eat :confused:

 

My pediatrician told me that kids will eat what you eat. If you don't want them to eat cake for breakfast, then don't eat it yourself. This has proven to be true. My kids love fruit, all manner of green veggies, and cookie dough. I don't understand why a child would not want to eat off of their parent's plates, or at least copy what they see their parents eating from a very young age. Maybe they are in a daycare with kid-only snacks?

 

Well, we unschool and we don't coerce.

 

So I have to ask... why would you hang out on a classical education board??

[Jean in Newcastle]

I see education as a way to expand her horizons, not limit them.

 

Well said.

[Pretty in Pink]

I imagine true unschoolers strive to expose their children to a variety of experiences, resources, materials, people, places, etc. and that they work to nurture any interests these exposures spark. Unschooling is far beyond my comfort zone, somewhere in the realm of pickled eggs or unmedicated dental procedures! Still, I do not begrudge one the right to made that educational choice for their child and I think that approach certainly has some benefits.

 

There is a stark difference between unschooling and non-schooling or non-parenting, however; on that I think we can mostly agree.

[Greta]

I dabbled in child-led (though not necessarily "unschooling") education for awhile, and ultimately found it is not optimal for my daughter, and will not meet the responsibilities that my husband and I feel that we have for her. That says nothing about how well it works for anyone else, I am only talking about my little family here. But here are some of the reasons I have become more structured in my teaching:

 

* I began to realize that I was teaching my daughter that that which is worthwhile should be "fun" and immediately gratifying. That is most definitely NOT what I want to teach her. I believe some of the most worthwhile things in life come only with hard work and a willingness to experience delayed gratification. The benefits of learning Latin, for example, may not be apparent until after years of hard work. But those benefits are worth it.

 

* I was putting an undue and unfair burden on my daughter by expecting her, a small child, to be able to figure out what she needed to learn and when she needed to learn it. I felt I was denying her the benefit of my experience and wisdom (okay, not saying I have those qualities in spades, but I do have a little bit!).

 

* I also felt that I would be allowing her to miss windows of opportunity. Developmentally, children's brains are simply optimized for learning certain skills at certain times. If those times pass without the right stimuli, the skills can be learned later, yes, but never as well or as easily as if they had been learned at that optimum time. For example, I deeply and profoundly wish that someone had taught me a foreign language, ANY foreign language, when I was very young. I didn't ask for that, and I didn't pursue it on my own. I wish someone had just sat me down and made me do it! And the skills that I was taught during those optimum times, even if they are ones I don't use in my day to day life, such as the ability to read and play music, I am so very grateful that I have them. They have enriched my life, in ways both subtle and profound.

 

What I seek in our homeschool is balance. I'm sure we all do, in our own ways! I try to balance between a rigorous and structured education that will give my daughter the skills, both academic and emotional, that she needs to succeed, with enough free time for her to pursue the things that she is interested in and that bring her joy. I think that in order for a child to be their best, they need some of both.

Edited December 30, 2008 by GretaLynne

[Peela]

I was speaking to a friend about her two teenage sons this afternoon. The 18yo just got accepted into media studies at a good local university, after taking a non- academic stream at highschool and then still FAILING every subject! He got accepted because of a portfolio because apart from going to school he had been following his passion of film making and had made a few good films! No one was more shocked than the mother that he got accepted into uni.

 

I would feel uncomfortable and irresponsible taking my kids out of school and not making sure they got at least the equivalent of what they would get IN school in terms of basic academics and knowledge our society expects of people. And I didnt like school, and neither did my husband. But I feel I owe my kids that much. However, I feel unschooling is a valid alternative for many kids and families and there are too many good examples of brilliant kids who unschooled to say it can't work well.

In this day of electronic distractions and sugar and junk food hyped brains, one would just hope the parents have enough common sense to know what they are doing and be willing to set some clear boundaries.

[fivetails]

Originally Posted by jamnkats

Well, we unschool and we don't coerce.

 

So I have to ask... why would you hang out on a classical education board??

 

 

I'm not jamnkats, but I would venture to guess that perhaps she enjoys having other homeschooling parents - whether they are classical or not - to talk with? That's why I'm on here - we're not classical by any stretch of the imagination...we're ...eclectic? Somewhat relaxed, but not unschoolers....we do what works best for us - we do actually use a few things that the classical community often uses, including SOTW (though we don't use it in the same way that many do here), but we're not classical. There's a fair handful of members here who wouldn't classify themselves as classical, actually. :)

[jamnkats]

I have known a couple of people like this who say they are relaxed or unschoolers, but they really give people who are relaxed or unschooling a bad name. I judge them quite harshly as being lazy and neglegent of their child's education. I am not talking about people with kids who have special needs that delay the onset of those skills, but parents who are too lazy to take 10 minutes a day to work on basic skills like reading irk me. I typically don't care how people school their own kids, once the child learns to read, but it is pretty hard to become self educated in anything if you can't read and no one is taking the time to introduce you to new ideas. The people I knew who were relaxed homeschoolers or unschoolers worked very hard at presenting ideas to their kids in out of the box ways, and taught their kids to read etc even if they did not use a curric to do so. Non-schoolers on the other hand should be charged with child abuse imo for not providing their child with any chance at a normal future, which requires basic skills like reading and numeracy.

 

I have found that it is absolutely unnecessary to teach a child to read. They have learned to read (the 7yo is on the cusp now) without any instruction. I would rather that they take their time on their own, while listening to Sonlight and other Newberry winners read by myself or my husband. I want to foster a love of reading in my kids. Kids who do not differentiate between a "school" book and a "fun" book. Kids who will read nonfiction as readily as fiction. I see allowing them their time to ramp up to reading in a print-rich environment, the best way to achieve that goal. My 14yo learned to read at 7, my 12yo learned to read at 10, my 9yo is beginning reading and the 7yo is sounding out words. All the kids in my family began around 5 to write words, to write dialogue, to write stories. Around 7 or 8 they started inventive spelling. They all LOVE to be read to (even the 14yo) and have extensive vocabularies. I have found that with my kids, it isn't necessary to force learning - it happens naturally.

[jamnkats]

So I have to ask... why would you hang out on a classical education board??

 

Expanding my horizons. Looking for ideas, books, literature, (found out about the TTC courses here) and yes, curriculum that could enhance my kids lives. My 12yo likes structure and I am trying to provide that for him. I am VERY unstructured so gathering ideas here allows me to provide different strategies to meet his need for structure.

 

Just because I would never sit down with a schedule and impose learning on my kids doesn't mean that I can't find nuggets of wisdom and ideas here that I can apply to my life.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Debra,

 

Thank you for your post. I generally agree with you. The information that I have read has non-coercive parenting to be against most persuasion past what the kid agreed to (like discussions). And teaching, and esp correction, is definitely persuasive. Of course, religious instruction is WAY persuasive. And I guess when I've thought of coersion otherwise, I've thought of prodding, teaching, encouraging, not bullying, threatening, etc as Webster's defines it. And you are right, by the definition, not the watered-down version of it, Jesus was not coercive.

[Lovedtodeath]

Expanding my horizons. Looking for ideas, books, literature, (found out about the TTC courses here) and yes, curriculum that could enhance my kids lives. My 12yo likes structure and I am trying to provide that for him. I am VERY unstructured so gathering ideas here allows me to provide different strategies to meet his need for structure.

 

Just because I would never sit down with a schedule and impose learning on my kids doesn't mean that I can't find nuggets of wisdom and ideas here that I can apply to my life.

 

Okay, so I guess I was confused about unschooling. You do use curriculum? How is it different? Does the child choose when to work through it? Do they do it on their own or do you teach it when they ask?

 

As far as not teaching a child to read... How do they start sounding out words if no one taught them what sound the letters make, or any phonics rules? (really curious) In addition, I taught DD like 4 or 5 rules and her reading level kept going up without more phonics. I was under the impression this was "bad" because she would get into a sight reading/dyslexic habit. How do you feel about that?

 

Thanks!

[melissel]

Okay, so I guess I was confused about unschooling. You do use curriculum? How is it different? Does the child choose when to work through it? Do they do it on their own or do you teach it when they ask?

 

As far as not teaching a child to read... How do they start sounding out words if no one taught them what sound the letters make, or any phonics rules? (really curious) In addition, I taught DD like 4 or 5 rules and her reading level kept going up without more phonics. I was under the impression this was "bad" because she would get into a sight reading/dyslexic habit. How do you feel about that?

 

Thanks!

 

Unschoolers don't avoid teaching their children, they just don't insist that their children learn what they don't want to learn and trust that they will come to it if they need/want it. Take the reading, for example. When you read to small children, you might still show them how to sound out words and what sounds the letters make as long as they wanted to hear it. If, like my DD at 3, they had no desire to watch you sound out words, they might say, "No, just read!" and you would leave that alone for awhile, until they were amenable to learning or until they asked to learn. (Or, like my DD, until they started reading street signs to you two months after their 4th birthday and you realized that particular work was finished.)

 

Generally, unschoolers use whatever they or their kids want to use, curriculum or otherwise; they generally just don't insist their kids work on something beyond their desire to do so, and they tend to use more real-life experiences in their daily learning. Often, if a child shows in interest in something, they'll finds ways to delve deeply and satisfy the desire for knowledge in many hands-on ways. However, I've come across unschoolers of all types. Some unschool everything but insist on daily math instruction. Some eschew any kind of curriculum unless what their child is really looking for can only be found there. Some use all kinds of curriculum, as long as the child is into it. Some strew things they think might spark their kids' interest around the house and in the bookshelves, and some consider that totally against the spirit of unschooling, and consider those who "strew" to not be "real" unschoolers. There's a very broad range, and on my old board, unschoolers used to argue among themselves as to who were "real" unschoolers and who were not (not unlike some of the arguments we have here :D).

 

I'm not against unschooling myself; I just don't have it in me to do it the way I feel it should be done to satisfy my personal requirements for the girls' education. But as others have said, in my experience, many unschoolers don't have specific goals for their children's home education. They aren't really concerned about college or job options, and believe those things will work themselves out. If the child decides she really wants to go to college and aim for, say, law school, she'll express that and allow the parents/teachers to help provide the knowledge needed to reach that goal.

 

Kathy, I'm sorry if the concerns I expressed about noncoercion offended you in any way. Laurie asked for opinions, and that's what people are expressing, that's all. If your CL/unschooling lifestyle works for you, that's all that matters, right? I wish we could be more CL, and I tried it for awhile, but I only felt trampled and disrespected, and have never figured out how to avoid coercion (with small children, at least) to get my own needs met. On the other board that I was on, CL figured heavily, and the only advice ever offered to me was to give up all my own needs, quit my job, sell my house, and give in to my children on everything--that I just wasn't trying hard enough to live consensually. I was left with a feeling that no one else's needs mattered but the children's, and unfortunately, I can't live that way. I've also seen that played out in real life with some unschoolers I've met, and that all fuels the concerns I expressed about the parenting aspect of the whole thing as I personally have experienced it. I envy those who can make it work, though, and I think your lifestyle sounds just heavenly.

Edited December 30, 2008 by melissel
Still adding to my post

[Sheila in OK]

This is how I've always seen it too. I don't have what it takes to be an "unschooler". :001_smile:

 

:iagree:Unschooling, when done well, looks incredibly exhausting! It is my understanding that it puts MORE on the parents than regular hs. Rather than doing the easy thing (today we're learning blablabla), unschooling parents have the responsibility to MAKE their children interested and WANT to learn. IOW, the unschooling parents I know, and those being discussed on this board, are not unschooling in the traditional sense (oxymoron, right, but YKWIM). They are just using it as an excuse to let their children's mind and potential languish while they do whatever it is they do.

[lionfamily1999]

This is how I've always seen it too. I don't have what it takes to be an "unschooler". :001_smile:

Me neither. I love teaching my kids, and do throw in lessons outside of class, but I couldn't imagine having the responsibility of their entire education resting on those moments.

[Carol in Cal.]

My pediatrician told me that kids will eat what you eat. If you don't want them to eat cake for breakfast, then don't eat it yourself. This has proven to be true. My kids love fruit, all manner of green veggies, and cookie dough. I don't understand why a child would not want to eat off of their parent's plates, or at least copy what they see their parents eating from a very young age. Maybe they are in a daycare with kid-only snacks?

 

 

QUOTE]

 

Certainly you can limit what you serve, and insist that children pick from those foods that you make available. And there are books about ECD that say that the time to start solid foods is when your children reach eagerly for food that their parents are eating. Well, DD is 12, and I'm still waiting for that readiness signal. She has some sort of eating issue that no one has ever been able to figure out. I insist that she eat a balanced diet that is healthy, but it is by no means a normal diet. I reached this compromise unwillingly, but did so because she has always been on the edge of the low weight/failure to thrive cliff, and when I insist that she eat normal portions of adult food, she throws up. She doesn't want to, either. It's the taste and texture and smell that make it so challenging. I know that this is weird, but I have to raise the child that I actually have, not some theoretical average child that she is not.

[LibraryLover]

In full disclosure, I am also not a 'classical' schooler, but I love the info on these boards. I've used various resources suggested here. I can't call myself a pure unschooler because I have introduced things the children haven't asked for.

 

I worry sometimes that I am not doing enough, even though I am following my childrens needs'. We live full, rich lives with museums, and zoos and friends and music and trips etc (We are on one now, altogether for two weeks). I would prefer that my youngest love to write (it's a critical skill) and I am waiting her out. Half of me wants to be like radical unschoolers who don't worry about such thngs, and the other half wants to impose a little structure so that she writes a little each day. I am not a controlling person, but I think this is more about personality that hs style, because I have seen controlling relaxed/unschoolers, and I have seen non- controlling classical types.

 

We are very relaxed here and discipline isn't an issue. None of the children have ever done anything that required punishment, and we have never spanked etc. We are nearly over the hump with that- my oldest is going to be 20 in a couple of weeks. (I'm from the old school of 'gentle discipline' a la LLL).

 

There are two clubs- the radical unschooling club of people who don't teach, and their children unfold beautifully, and the other club of classicals who do teach and their children unfold beautifully.

 

There are the rest of us...in the middle...clubless. lol

 

I learn a lot on this board, ftr. I really love the blogs here and I really love how people of all styles adore their kids and are trying to do the very best for them, whatever their hsing style.

[LibraryLover]

My kids learned to read very naturally and pretty young (all by 7, some younger), and we all enjoyed sitting together reading and looking at letters & words. It felt natual to share this info with the children. It was so painless. I would say it was lovely time together; we did sit we down & did talk about letter sounds and odd spelling rules that don't make sense etc. It was lovely time together, it wasn't painful and all of my children are voracious readers. I am not sure I agree that information given to children when they are developmentally ready to read reading makes them nonreaders.

 

If you are talking about inappropriate expectations and tears for 4 yr olds who aren't ready, I can see the problem. But gentle, joyous time together learning? I don't see that as a negative at all. I see it as a parent and child spending time together and making emotional connections.

 

I think it's right to wait until kids are ready, but what I don't quite understand is why some of the unschoolers I know who have 9 and 10 yr olds don't offer the information. I really respect these folks and their kids are lovely. I have no issue with the philospophy of waiting until readiness at all. I am just not sure why you wouldn't offer some basic info about decoding to a child of this age etc.

 

 

One of my children was not quite 4 when he began reading, with little info from me. It just happened, so I think this might be what you're talking about? That even without the sitting together and talking about deocding or words, it will just happen. I have no concerns that it won't happen for the particular children I know, so I am simply curious. I am sure they will go from simple text to Harry Potter in a matter of months.

 

I have found that it is absolutely unnecessary to teach a child to read. They have learned to read (the 7yo is on the cusp now) without any instruction. I would rather that they take their time on their own, while listening to Sonlight and other Newberry winners read by myself or my husband. I want to foster a love of reading in my kids. Kids who do not differentiate between a "school" book and a "fun" book. Kids who will read nonfiction as readily as fiction. I see allowing them their time to ramp up to reading in a print-rich environment, the best way to achieve that goal. My 14yo learned to read at 7, my 12yo learned to read at 10, my 9yo is beginning reading and the 7yo is sounding out words. All the kids in my family began around 5 to write words, to write dialogue, to write stories. Around 7 or 8 they started inventive spelling. They all LOVE to be read to (even the 14yo) and have extensive vocabularies. I have found that with my kids, it isn't necessary to force learning - it happens naturally.

Edited December 30, 2008 by LibraryLover

[Tammyla]

I think different methods and philosophies work for different families and try hard to respect them. I will admit to having a difficult time adjusting to the term..unschooling.

 

However, as with any educational path (public school, private school, rigorous homeschooling or relaxed) some children will fall through the cracks and others will thrive. Parents who care about their children and their education will make most any choice work. I've learned the best program, curriculum, philosophy, method, schedule or non schedule that works and is getting done is the best one for that family.

[Ellie]

Okay, so I guess I was confused about unschooling. You do use curriculum? How is it different? Does the child choose when to work through it? Do they do it on their own or do you teach it when they ask?

First, let's define "curriculum." It does not mean "that textbook there." It means "the subjects offered by an institution of education." IOW, ancient history is the curriculum, not whatever text or trade book you use to teach. Math is the curriculum, not Math 65 or MUS.

 

So, second, yes, an unschooler might use a *textbook* if it contained information he wanted to learn, but mostly he would work through it as much as he wanted to, in whatever manner he wanted to (reading on his own, the parent teaching from it, etc.), rather than the parent assigning it (unless the learner *wanted* the parent to give more structure).

 

As far as not teaching a child to read... How do they start sounding out words if no one taught them what sound the letters make, or any phonics rules? (really curious) In addition, I taught DD like 4 or 5 rules and her reading level kept going up without more phonics. I was under the impression this was "bad" because she would get into a sight reading/dyslexic habit. How do you feel about that?

 

Thanks!

This is an area that *I* was not comfortable unschooling. I know that many dc do teach themselves to read, but I preferred to teach my dd using WRTR. However, we only did it for a couple of months each year for, oh, 2 or 3 years; I didn't require dd to read on her own (although she did), I didn't require her to check out books from the library (although she did), and I certainly never did such a thing as a book report (no, she didn't do those on her own, lol). Allowing a child to teach himself won't necessarily result in dyslexia; OTOH, if you're going to teach a child to read, IMHO phonics methods are better than sight reading methods. At any rate, an unschooler who teaches himself to read will often ask advice on how to pronounce things, and that's when you point out the appropriate phonics/spelling rule.

[chaik76]

My pediatrician told me that kids will eat what you eat. If you don't want them to eat cake for breakfast, then don't eat it yourself. This has proven to be true. My kids love fruit, all manner of green veggies, and cookie dough. I don't understand why a child would not want to eat off of their parent's plates, or at least copy what they see their parents eating from a very young age. Maybe they are in a daycare with kid-only snacks?

 

 

I have one child like you say...he models what we eat. My oldest...not so much!!! He's the kid who likes opposites. You like broccoli? He likes green beans. You like cake? No sweets for him. I really do think this depends, in part, on the child. Luckily, he really doesn't like sweet or sugary things at all.

 

I was much like him when I was small. I would do the opposite of what people expected, wanted, or modeled. It is still something I have to strive against as an adult.

[seanda]

Well, we used to be unschoolers, especially with my daughter... but I have never been a radical unschooler. That said I know families for whom it worked brilliantly. Many families.

 

One family comes to mind. They had 3 children. Until 8th grade they did no formal work although all 3 learned to read before then because of interest, 2 had almost no math. In 8th grade they sat their kids down and said it is time to start looking seriously at your future. You know that you have these interests and passions. In preparing for your future we will be going through Saxon 8/7 this year, and look to what you need to reach your life goals.

 

Her two older children had both been to college.. and in fact attended early. Once they decided the path they wanted to take they dug in and did so with great skill. They used American School for high school and graduated in 2 years. The third was not yet college age when I last talked to them but had developed a passion for music. In fact, at 15 she was playing as guest pianist to the near big city Symphony and as the pianist for a local theater.

 

These are NOT lazy people... but they worked developing passions and pursuing them. They go into such depth with their passions and work so hard at them. This is in many ways of more value than the repetitive shallow learning of grade school.

 

The two girls both wrote beautifully and did the newsletter.... they started it and ran it for most of the time I knew them. It was a way for them to showcase what homeschoolers were doing... including themselves. I do not know about the son but he went on to graduate college. The mom credited being avid readers and being motivated as the reason for their skills.

 

I did not go that route. I chose to slowly become more and more formal. Even so what I have seen with most unschoolers frankly surpasses most homeschoolers by the time they reach high school. On the other hand.. what I have seen in classical methodology surpasses most also. lol.

 

I do think that unschooling has more risks ... some parents use it as an excuse to do nothing and that is not unschooling works well.