S/O Weaponized Incompetence

[frogger]

16 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Some of that may be regional or socioeconomic,  I don’t actually know a single woman who has ever even been to a “real” spa.   I live in the south and it’s still very “traditional” as far as gender roles go.  Somehow some of these men can field dress a deer but not open a pack of chicken or change a diaper.  Some can cook, but only are willing to when it suites 

I do think there are various cultures even within one region and I am sure Alaska Natives probably have a different perspectives too. I know my wealthier family is the spa and jewelry people but most of us middle class the women run a chain saw or commerical fish or hunt with the guys. 

Yes, my husband will give me a day off cooking but I also spent many hours chipping tree branches last weekend. I know many women pilots, bow hunters, whatever. I was a construction worker before becoming a SAHM. 

 

But my guess is they were also not taught to respect women. I do know some old timers like that but I don't want my husband and sons grouped in with them. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by frogger

[Corraleno]

I thought it might be useful to add some examples of healthy responses to the scenarios I listed in a previous post.

Wife is swamped, asks husband for help with laundry.
Healthy responses: "Oh man, that is my least favorite task, is there something else I can take off your plate instead?" Or "I'm happy to take over laundry duties, but since it's something you've always done and I'm not really familiar with 'best practices' in the laundry domain, are there things we can do to make it 'idiot proof' — like could we get a bin that includes separate sections for white, dark, and colors, and stick some labels on the detergents so I know what to use with which load? Would it be OK to do items that don't go in the dryer as a separate load, even if it's small, to minimize the risk of something going in there that shouldn't?"
Weaponized incompetence with a side order of gaslighting: Screw up the laundry and then say "Well if you want it done a certain way [i.e. not ruined], why don't you just do it yourself? You said you wanted help, so I tried to help, but you always criticize my efforts, that's why I don't help more!"

Wife asks husband to be responsible for cooking two meals a week, because he gets home earlier on those days while she's shuttling kids to activities until 7 PM.
Healthy responses: "Well I'm not the best cook, but I'm sure can make some basics like mac & cheese or spaghetti that everyone can eat on soccer practice nights." Or "I really hate cooking and I'm terrible at it, would it be OK to just pick up takeout on those nights, or I could even just grab a rotisserie chicken and bagged salad from Costco if that's OK."
Weaponized incompetence with a side order of gaslighting: Mom and kids get home from soccer and there's no food, husband says "Well you never told me what to make, why didn't you plan a meal and buy the ingredients and leave me a recipe with all the instructions?" Or he cooks something the rest of the family doesn't like or makes it super spicy, and then says "But I like Prairie Oyster Vindaloo, why can't I cook things I like? Why are you so difficult and unappreciative of my efforts? This is why I don't help more!"

Wife asks husband to organize all his stuff that's stashed in the garage so she can park in there at night instead of having to scrape ice off her windows every morning while rushing to get the kids to school and get to work.
Healthy response: "Sure, I can make time for that this weekend. If I make a first pass through everything and get rid of the obvious stuff that needs to be donated or trashed, and put away the things that have designated places, would you have some time maybe on Sunday to help decide where the rest of the stuff should go?" Or "There's a lot of heavy stuff in there, let me call Tom and see if he can help me move stuff either this weekend or next." Or "I get why you want to park in the garage, but there's really no other place to put some of that stuff, how would you feel about putting a small shed in the backyard to take some of the overflow?"
Weaponized incompetence with a side order of gaslighting: Agrees to clear out the garage this weekend but does nothing. Promises to do it next week, but also does nothing. Agrees to call Tom to see if he's available to help, but doesn't get around to it. Dumps out a few boxes, makes a bigger mess, and then leaves it there. This goes on for several weeks, then he complains that the "constant nagging about the stupid garage makes me not even want to do it, why don't you just go through it yourself and throw all my stuff away, since apparently I'm not allowed to have space for my stuff in my own house!"

[rebcoola]

I think its ones of those things thats hard to understand until you see it. A friends now ex husbamd texted 52 times during a 2 hour drinks and apps moms night event with questions like where are the forks.

My mom has a friend that does the Im a princess take care of me thing not sure its exactly the same.  The end result is the same her current partner does everything. She just goes out shopping, to the salon, movies or lunch and drinks a lot. 

[BeachGal]

26 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Why are people so nice?! How do these people have friends? Whether I would have told your mother or not she wouldn't be my friend anymore and quite frankly I would have told her not very nicely to leave. 

Many of my MIL’s friends and acquaintances eventually figured her out and did shun her. My husband and I eventually moved about 20 miles away to a different town to have some space. MIL was cared for until she died but it wasn’t easy.

My mother, on the other hand, was a very different person and did not behave like my MIL at all. I can sum their differences up with the mottos each would often say:

MIL: Yes them to death, then do what you want.

My mom: Say what you mean and mean what you say.

My MIL had good points, too, but she could be difficult.

[Shoeless]

10 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

I think its ones of those things thats hard to understand until you see it. A friends now ex husbamd texted 52 times during a 2 hour drinks and apps moms night event with questions like where are the forks.

My ex once called me at work to ask where his pants were.  He couldn't find them and now he was going to be late for work so he might as well just call in, and it was all my fault because he can't find his pants, and he's trying to be a good partner here and hold down a job like I want him to but I make it so hard for him because I won't help him find his pants, so what's the point of even trying?!

Dude, bye. 

[Lecka]

I have heard of a man who is asked to pick something up from the store on the way home, he is thinking “why do I have to go to the store at such a busy time, when I want to get home.”  And just doesn’t bother to get the right ingredient.  
 

I have heard of people say they bought something even though they knew it would mess up the other spouse’s budget plan.  (But in a fake “how could I know?” way.). 
 

These are exact examples I’ve heard.  

[Lecka]

I also know someone where one person basically got agreement from the spouse about a family vacation and then hid that it was going on a credit card.  “How was I supposed to know you didn’t want me to use a credit card?”  I think it just got more expensive and the person still wanted to take the trip.  The spouse did not find out until the next month after the trip and then it was “but everyone loved the trip, you loved the trip” type of stuff.  
 

But the person should have known to bring up the credit card stuff!  I think it was for extra things or some of the reservations but not all the reservations, or something.

 

But it was treated like “how was I to know I should have told you about the credit card?” 
 

We also know someone who married someone with a lot of debt who kept it secret for the first year they were married and it was a major shock, and the person acted like “how was I supposed to know this would be an issue, we’re in love.”  

[SKL]

57 minutes ago, Shoeless said:

My ex once called me at work to ask where his pants were.  He couldn't find them and now he was going to be late for work so he might as well just call in, and it was all my fault because he can't find his pants, and he's trying to be a good partner here and hold down a job like I want him to but I make it so hard for him because I won't help him find his pants, so what's the point of even trying?!

Dude, bye. 

The song "fast car" comes to mind....

But also, sadly, it sounds like some of the things my kid says when she's in a mood.  Like if I want her to have a job, the least I can do is keep track of her work clothes (and make sure they are always clean when she needs them) ... but never do annoying things like remind her when it's time to get ready for work ....  (ETA these are not the words said, but the tone....)

I promised myself this will be the summer we fix all that ....

Edited July 1, 2023 by SKL

[Carol in Cal.]

12 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The version of this that I deal with the most is less innocent than genuine incompetence but also less conscious or purposeful than weaponized incompetence. I don't know a good word for it, but it's when someone with ADHD genuinely struggles with something, but also makes no effort to mitigate or compensate for it. For example, they may be bad about keeping track of dates, and say they want to learn to use a calendar and keep it up to date, but then they don't do it because it's hard. Or they struggle to remember and complete all the tasks they need to do, but also make no effort to set up and use a To Do list, because it's hard to remember to make the list. So all the executive function tasks just get dumped on the non-ADHD spouse/parent/coworker/etc., instead of making a real effort to set up habits that would allow them to manage those tasks themselves.

 

YES!

Regarding the ADD aspect, I had a flash of inspiration at some point about this, and thought to say, “Look, I am absolutely terrible at directions.  You know it and I know it.  I can get lost faster and more completely than anyone else I know.  BUT I WORK AROUND IT.  I don’t call you from a pay phone and sk you how to get home or ask you to meet me and lead me home.  I look up the address and write down directions to it (this is from before GPS or even Yahoo maps), and I bring a map along in case I get off track, and if I lose my way I pull over and look at the map.  It’s not easy for me but I prepare for it and I deal with it so that it’s not made into your problem too.  And I frankly resent the fact that you don’t prepare for and deal with your ADD stuff by making lists or following lists or putting things on your calendar or even just closing the (expletive deleted) cabinet door when you take out a glass.  You could do the stuff they teach kids with ADD to do, like teaching yourself to look back behind you every time you cross a threshold, instead of leaving lights on and cabinets open and outside doors unlocked and shoe or underwear on the floor for me to follow behind you like a little slave and rectify.”

I think I delivered this message about three times, and then it kind of sunk in, and although DH is not doing all those things I can tell that he is trying, at least some of the time, which I find very consoling. (Side note:  GPS was so wonderful for me.)

There ARE times, however, when I say, “my planning brain is done for the day.  You can’t ask me any more questions until tomorrow, because I have run out of mental energy for them.” I don’t say that angrily but more so, descriptively.  

[TexasProud]

6 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

 You could do the stuff they teach kids with ADD to do, like teaching yourself to look back behind you every time you cross a threshold, instead of leaving lights on and cabinets open and outside doors unlocked and shoe or underwear on the floor for me to follow behind you like a little slave and rectify.”

I guess, why do you have to rectify this???  Saying as a person who leaves cabinets open all the time. Drove my mom nuts.  Hubby doesn't care.  I leave his underwear on the floor.  I don't think it is  a moral failing to leave a cabinet open or underwear on the floor.  Lying to someone is a big deal.  That, yeah, no.

[Laura Corin]

11 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Nope.  Not weaponized incompetence. Doing it in such a way as to damage it on purpose so he’d never ask you again would be though.   Hopping on the tractor and “accidentally” mowing over half his vegetable garden would be.  

I had a female academic colleague at work who put so little effort into learning how to do administrative chores, and did them so badly,  that she was never asked to do any.  The other academics finally revolted and insisted she be given a task.

The responsibility was very small  - helping 5 students to choose modules. During her very first appointment she called me - child-like in her fluster - and asked what she should be doing. The first student was in her room already heard her expressing her own ignorance and incompetence.  Astonishing. 

[SKL]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I guess, why do you have to rectify this???  Saying as a person who leaves cabinets open all the time. Drove my mom nuts.  Hubby doesn't care.  I leave his underwear on the floor.  I don't think it is  a moral failing to leave a cabinet open or underwear on the floor.  Lying to someone is a big deal.  That, yeah, no.

I think it's inconsiderate to leave a shared space untidy, unless all parties are totally fine living in untidiness.

Untidiness, including open doors / drawers, genuinely interferes with at least some people's peace of mind in their own home.  And, it's not difficult to just shut the dang door.

We have a joke here about my "zwee."  My housemates used to constantly leave cabinet doors open, and I am not happy in a messy environment.  At one point I explained that untidiness disturbs the chi (and had expert evidence behind that).  Next time I reminded someone to close a cupboard, a housemate said, "oh yes, SKL's ZWEE is getting disturbed."  So after that, I would just say "my zwee" and the others would close things.  😛  Door closing has become mostly a habit for all now ... one that benefits everyone who lives here IMO.

I've been less successful getting people to turn off lights ....

Edited July 1, 2023 by SKL

[knitgrl]

Perhaps this poem sums it up.

[Carol in Cal.]

6 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I guess, why do you have to rectify this???  Saying as a person who leaves cabinets open all the time. Drove my mom nuts.  Hubby doesn't care.  I leave his underwear on the floor.  I don't think it is  a moral failing to leave a cabinet open or underwear on the floor.  Lying to someone is a big deal.  That, yeah, no.

It is not a moral failing but it is selfish.  It makes an orderly, attractive space look ugly and tentative and disorderly.

And both imply that cleaning up after oneself is beneath one, so someone else should do it, who presumably it is not beneath.  Like, a wife.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

3 hours ago, knitgrl said:

Perhaps this poem sums it up.

So perfect.

[Ginevra]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:52 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

I think that we underestimate the little bits of accumulated knowledge that we need to do certain simple tasks. I am embarrassed at how stupid I can be about fix-it type jobs. I technically know that it should be easy to use a drill for something but I wasn’t given exposure to all those little things like what bit to choose for what job, and how much pressure to use and what angle to hold it etc. And when I try to do these things myself Dh gets frustrated with me (though he doesn’t accuse me of weaponized incompetence) and often has to redo the job himself. What I really want is to learn to do it competently but I need a patient teacher who will do more than tell me to “just use the drill “. 

I was recently telling my dh about a Dept of Natural Resources series of classes, with a focus on women learning the tasks. (Ex., fishing, using a chainsaw, set up a tent, etc.) He said, “You don’t need those classes! I can teach you any of those things…” But part of why I want it is because I want a neutral party to show me how; someone who’s not going to mansplain it because I’m silly Miss Don’t-Know-How. 

[Carol in Cal.]

A relevant article from 50 years ago:

https://msmagazine.com/2021/03/04/from-the-vault-click-the-housewifes-moment-of-truth-ms-magazine-spring-1972/

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I was recently telling my dh about a Dept of Natural Resources series of classes, with a focus on women learning the tasks. (Ex., fishing, using a chainsaw, set up a tent, etc.) He said, “You don’t need those classes! I can teach you any of those things…” But part of why I want it is because I want a neutral party to show me how; someone who’s not going to mansplain it because I’m silly Miss Don’t-Know-How. 

One of the best classes I ever took was a Auto Mechanics for Women class put out by the YWCA.  It was taught by a man but without any mansplaining vibes to it at all.  I no longer bother to change my own oil, but I could if I needed to.  And when my ds and his friend wanted to learn how to change the oil in their cars they came to me and not dh because I would explain it simply but without any judgement.  And I would let them practice on my car.  😉

[marbel]

10 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I was recently telling my dh about a Dept of Natural Resources series of classes, with a focus on women learning the tasks. (Ex., fishing, using a chainsaw, set up a tent, etc.) He said, “You don’t need those classes! I can teach you any of those things…” But part of why I want it is because I want a neutral party to show me how; someone who’s not going to mansplain it because I’m silly Miss Don’t-Know-How. 

A long, long time ago my husband suggested I take a basic shooting class for women. He knew how to shoot but wanted me to learn from a professional, not from him. The class was a lot of fun, and the male instructors were great. One of them made the comment that teaching women was very different from teaching men, because men often feel like they are expected to "just know how to do things" and thus close themselves off from learning, while women come into it knowing they don't know anything and learn more easily. (Obvs this does not apply to all men or all women, or all topics.)

So people might think "ugh, stupid/arrogant men" but what social conditioning has there been to make them think that way, I wonder? I know I just veered off topic. 

 

So after reading all the thread I think much of what I hear/see called "weaponized incompetence" really isn't. I appreciate the examples and I'm sorry for people who are dealing with it. I do still wonder about men and their children. I have known many women who just shut their husbands out of taking care of babies/small kids, and then got angry when they wanted to leave the kids with dad but dad didn't know how to manage. I'm sure there are also plenty of fathers who don't want to take care of their kids as well. But I know incompetence or helplessness can be a learned behavior as well. 

Thanks again for the discussion! 

[TexasProud]

3 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It is not a moral faili amng but it is selfish.  It makes an orderly, attractive space look ugly and tentative and disorderly.

And both imply that cleaning up after oneself is beneath one, so someone else should do it, who presumably it is not beneath.  Like, a wife.

Define disorderly.  It is not beneath me.  I just do not see the stuff.  I was so glad to get out of my house ( house I grew up in) Hardest part of taking care of mom was her starting to harp on all that stuff again.  I was back to being 5 again.  Just horrible.  I much prefer my MIL.  And define ugly and how orderly is orderly.   I AM SORRY I DONT LIVE UP TO YOUR STANDARDS.  I am not doing it deliberately.  My mind is somewhere else and to concentrate that hard on it is just exhausting.  I do when it is cleaning days, but otherwise no.  So sorry you feel like my husband is so disappointed in me. 

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Ginevra said:

I was recently telling my dh about a Dept of Natural Resources series of classes, with a focus on women learning the tasks. (Ex., fishing, using a chainsaw, set up a tent, etc.) He said, “You don’t need those classes! I can teach you any of those things…” But part of why I want it is because I want a neutral party to show me how; someone who’s not going to mansplain it because I’m silly Miss Don’t-Know-How. 

One of my reasons for putting my kids in American Heritage Girls was because it encourages girls to learn things that might not otherwise be socially encouraged.  They also got some good exposure from going to a 4H camp (despite not being in 4H).

I wish there were more programs that did this.  (Co-ed is fine too, though families don't tend to put their girls into co-ed mechanical type classes, so my kids were often the only girls there.)

 

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Define disorderly.  It is not beneath me.  I just do not see the stuff.  I was so glad to get out of my house ( house I grew up in) Hardest part of taking care of mom was her starting to harp on all that stuff again.  I was back to being 5 again.  Just horrible.  I much prefer my MIL.  And define ugly and how orderly is orderly.   I AM SORRY I DONT LIVE UP TO YOUR STANDARDS.  I am not doing it deliberately.  My mind is somewhere else and to concentrate that hard on it is just exhausting.  I do when it is cleaning days, but otherwise no.  So sorry you feel like my husband is so disappointed in me. 

I think the point was that the effect of an untidy house is not neutral if the space is shared.  Even if you don't see the mess, it is likely to affect the moods of those who do see it.  At least some of them are likely to feel like you are not considering how careless behavior affects them.

If you really can't see mess, maybe at least acknowledge that this affects others, and agree on how to deal with that.  For example, assign value to the task of cleaning up, and trade with someone who does see the mess.  Perhaps you like cooking more than they do.  Then you can cook for them and they can clean up after you.  That's more respectful than "oh you don't like my habits?  Sucks to be you!"

[Jean in Newcastle]

24 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Define disorderly.  It is not beneath me.  I just do not see the stuff.  I was so glad to get out of my house ( house I grew up in) Hardest part of taking care of mom was her starting to harp on all that stuff again.  I was back to being 5 again.  Just horrible.  I much prefer my MIL.  And define ugly and how orderly is orderly.   I AM SORRY I DONT LIVE UP TO YOUR STANDARDS.  I am not doing it deliberately.  My mind is somewhere else and to concentrate that hard on it is just exhausting.  I do when it is cleaning days, but otherwise no.  So sorry you feel like my husband is so disappointed in me. 

You’ve been married a long time. Your husband doesn’t appear to mind. Don’t take the criticism of a total stranger over the real life people in your life. 

[marbel]

20 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think the point was that the effect of an untidy house is not neutral if the space is shared.  Even if you don't see the mess, it is likely to affect the moods of those who do see it.  At least some of them are likely to feel like you are not considering how careless behavior affects them.

If you really can't see mess, maybe at least acknowledge that this affects others, and agree on how to deal with that.  For example, assign value to the task of cleaning up, and trade with someone who does see the mess.  Perhaps you like cooking more than they do.  Then you can cook for them and they can clean up after you.  That's more respectful than "oh you don't like my habits?  Sucks to be you!"

Yes. A lot of people can't see a mess. 

And I'm not saying this applies to anyone here, and I think goes beyond the quoted conversation above, but a person I know (not me, I'm not being coy) told me that she was sorry her kids had grown up in a cluttered, messy house. She (I'll call her Jane) herself had grown up in an orderly home, but her husband had not. He was used to stuff all over the place, and it was natural him to live in a cluttered environment. Jane didn't like it, and tried to keep things nice, but eventually gave up. As she put it "the messier person wins because the neater person can't keep up." As a result, Jane's kids were used to living in clutter, keeping stuff "just in case" and generally being sloppy pack rats. It grieved her at the end of her life. But her husband would never have known it because she had stopped trying years before. 

[Carol in Cal.]

43 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Define disorderly.  It is not beneath me.  I just do not see the stuff.  I was so glad to get out of my house ( house I grew up in) Hardest part of taking care of mom was her starting to harp on all that stuff again.  I was back to being 5 again.  Just horrible.  I much prefer my MIL.  And define ugly and how orderly is orderly.   I AM SORRY I DONT LIVE UP TO YOUR STANDARDS.  I am not doing it deliberately.  My mind is somewhere else and to concentrate that hard on it is just exhausting.  I do when it is cleaning days, but otherwise no.  So sorry you feel like my husband is so disappointed in me. 

Hey, you asked a question (WHY?) about my own specific experience and I answered it.  

You don’t like the answer FOR YOU, and you’re free to disregard it.  Also it might not apply entirely to you, but it does apply in a lot of such cases, including mine.  

Edited July 1, 2023 by Carol in Cal.

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, marbel said:

Yes. A lot of people can't see a mess. 

And I'm not saying this applies to anyone here, and I think goes beyond the quoted conversation above, but a person I know (not me, I'm not being coy) told me that she was sorry her kids had grown up in a cluttered, messy house. She (I'll call her Jane) herself had grown up in an orderly home, but her husband had not. He was used to stuff all over the place, and it was natural him to live in a cluttered environment. Jane didn't like it, and tried to keep things nice, but eventually gave up. As she put it "the messier person wins because the neater person can't keep up." As a result, Jane's kids were used to living in clutter, keeping stuff "just in case" and generally being sloppy pack rats. It grieved her at the end of her life. But her husband would never have known it because she had stopped trying years before. 

 

This was happening to me (with two housemates who didn't see / didn't "have time to deal with" mess), and that is why I finally caved and allowed a maid service to be hired.  I tried to "do it all" but could not ... especially since we were also business partners and I was supposed to be a workaholic (never not working at least 2 jobs outside the home).  It was viewed as my "idealism" causing problems.  I grew some balls eventually and forced people to at least hear my side.

[Ginevra]

21 hours ago, Corraleno said:

When I first learned to drive, I not only kept a road atlas in the car at all times, but before I even got into the car to go somewhere new, I would write out the directions in list form — and then I would write the return directions on a separate piece of paper, because I cannot reverse written directions in my head

Giiiirrrlll…do I ever hear you on that. In the years before GPS was on “everyone’s” phones, I took a trip to another state for a wedding. Before I got on the plane, I printed out Mapquest (remember that???) directions to and from every place I could think of that I may go while there. I stuck very closely to one main North-South running road where the hotel was and deviated from my printed directions not at all. 
 

I can relate to the spatial IQ test, too. I remember one of my kids had one of those brain game apps and one game my kid *loved* was spatial - I *hated* that game. I could not play it for more than thirty second because you had to make rapid decisions about orientation and click appropriately. My avatar would die almost instantly! My kid was here, clicking away, re-routing the avatar and I just 100% could not do it! My avi just bumped into shit for twenty seconds and then died, lol! 

[Carol in Cal.]

35 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

You’ve been married a long time. Your husband doesn’t appear to mind. Don’t take the criticism of a total stranger over the real life people in your life. 

Read carefully.  I did not criticize her.  And frankly, your post is awfully passive aggressive.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Read carefully.  I did not criticize her.  And frankly, your post is awfully passive aggressive.  

Nope. I was telling her the truth. 

[marbel]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

This was happening to me (with two housemates who didn't see / didn't "have time to deal with" mess), and that is why I finally caved and allowed a maid service to be hired.  I tried to "do it all" but could not ... especially since we were also business partners and I was supposed to be a workaholic (never not working at least 2 jobs outside the home).  It was viewed as my "idealism" causing problems.  I grew some balls eventually and forced people to at least hear my side.

I think a cleaning service is great. But, they can't clean under stacks of magazines, junk mail, clothing, etc., and they would probably not throw it away without explicit instructions to do so. The old joke about "My wife cleaning up for the cleaning service" isn't funny because the service has to have access to clean. 

[Corraleno]

7 hours ago, Ginevra said:

Giiiirrrlll…do I ever hear you on that. In the years before GPS was on “everyone’s” phones, I took a trip to another state for a wedding. Before I got on the plane, I printed out Mapquest (remember that???) directions to and from every place I could think of that I may go while there. I stuck very closely to one main North-South running road where the hotel was and deviated from my printed directions not at all. 

Oh, I've printed out so many MapQuest maps in my lifetime, lol. I actually still do that (except with Google Maps) for long road trips, like when DS and I drove 2400 miles so he could have a car at university, and then had to drive all the way back the following March after they closed everything down because of covid. It was a 4 day drive and I printed a separate page for each day, and used a highlighter to mark the exact route. That was in addition to the Garmin on the dashboard providing turn by turn directions.

And before MapQuest existed, you used to be able to order customized trip maps from AAA, which were long, skinny spiral-bound books with each page covering a certain number of miles. Those were much easier to use for long trips vs pulling out that gigantic Rand McNally Road Atlas (or worse — trying to unfold and refold those giant paper maps!). Having accurate GPS in the palm of my hand has been absolutely life changing for me — I'd give up a lot of other tech before I would give that up!

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Corraleno

[TexasProud]

13 hours ago, SKL said:

I think the point was that the effect of an untidy house is not neutral if the space is shared.  Even if you don't see the mess, it is likely to affect the moods of those who do see it.  At least some of them are likely to feel like you are not considering how careless behavior affects them.

If you really can't see mess, maybe at least acknowledge that this affects others, and agree on how to deal with that.  For example, assign value to the task of cleaning up, and trade with someone who does see the mess.  Perhaps you like cooking more than they do.  Then you can cook for them and they can clean up after you.  That's more respectful than "oh you don't like my habits?  Sucks to be you!"

And believe me, I get that I do.  As I mentioned in the other thread at 3:30 after we finished school the kids and I would go from room to room.  I would set a timer for 10 minutes: one or two would pick up items and put them back. Another would vacuum. Another dust.   I kept things reasonably straight and clean.

But man, I spent those years in fear. My husband is much neater than I am.  I cleaned the kitchen one day. Got it very clean by my standards and he would come in and say, "Oh, next time we clean we should get out the vacuum cleaner and clean around the finials. ( Our cabinets are built like furniture.) When he cleans the kitchen, I hate to eat in it. He uses toothpicks and such.  The kids would laugh because if we cleaned out the cars this is how it went:  Kids would do it.  Then I would go behind and clean what they missed, but then dh would go in and find more.  The only fights hubby and I ever got in was in the condition of the house sometimes. 

Hubby completely changed after his stroke. He has apologized for caring about something so stupid. I cannot tell you how much more I enjoy my house now.  In fact, these days, I am neater than my husband.  So funny.

So for me, ever item in its place, keep it very neat reminds me of my mom who cared much more about that than me.  Very triggering.