Drag Story time

[prairiewindmomma]

Tell me, where did I say that? (Go read page 14 again, I didn’t.)

[maize]

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

This 2021 study came out re: hormone therapy and mental health in teens. 

The link doesn't seem to work.

[prairiewindmomma]

Hmmm, I clicked it above just now, and it went through. Do you have a popup blocker that might be catching it? 

[MercyA]

16 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Hmmm, I clicked it above just now, and it went through. Do you have a popup blocker that might be catching it? 

Also not working for me, even though it was previously.

[prairiewindmomma]

Weird. I just clicked on my post link again, and it didn't pull up....but when I clicked on maize's quote it did pull up.  If you click on maize's quote does it pull up?

[prairiewindmomma]

Here it is again displayed as a link: https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/pdf

[SanDiegoMom]

If one looks at the single topic of minors transitioning and puberty blockers to cross sex hormones in particular, then all of the treatment currently rests on “the Dutch Protcol”.  However there are many flaws that have come to light with that singular linchpin of evidence. 
 

The Dutch protocol was a study of 70 patients who were studied with two follow up studies (2011 and 2014) and declared a success.  There are a great many differences to the way the are being prescribed in the US today , and there are flaws within their methodology which invalidate their findings. 
 

For one, the way they were chosen - only the ones that were doing well on puberty blockers and ready to move on to cross sex hormones went into the first study, and the second study labeled the ones who dropped out (and one died during sex reassignment surgery) as non participants.  Three had dropped out due to obesity and one had diabetes.  So the study dropped to 55 from 70 but managed to keep the negative outcomes from affecting their results. 
 

The second flaw was administering the scale of dysphoria questions.  The first study asks them how much dysphoria they are experiencing as their natal sex.  After the hormones and surgery (if done)  they are asked how high is their dysphoria as the opposite sex.  These results are then used to show dramatic improvement in dysphoria.  However over half still  experienced gentian shame, and a quarter still felt inadequate about their bodies.  

From the article that discuses past and current pediatric and youth gender medicine - https://segm.org/Dutch-studies-critically-flawed 

“The authors assert that had the Dutch studies been published today for the first time, the "innovative practice" of using hormones and surgery to gender-transition children and young adults would never have been permitted to enter general medical settings due to the very low quality of the research, and problematic outcomes experienced by several of the young people. Unfortunately, since the publication of the final Dutch study in 2014, the practice of youth gender transitions underwent what's known as “runaway diffusion”— a problematic but not uncommon phenomenon whereby the medical community mistakes a small innovative experiment as a proven practice, and a potentially nonbeneficial or harmful practice “escapes the lab,” rapidly spreading to general practice settings. 

The authors note that the only way to curb the damage of ongoing “runaway diffusion” is to conduct systematic reviews of evidence, update treatment guidelines to reflect the lack of evidence, and then “de-implement” unproven or harmful practices—a process known as “practice reversal.” They observe that such practice reversals of “gender-affirming” interventions for youth are already underway in Finland, Sweden, England, and most recently the state of Florida.”

 

[SanDiegoMom]

I also find it very disingenuous to compare regret from minor surgeries to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones which cause sterilization, could affect brain development and bone density, and negate the ability of the child to ever experience orgasm. 

[KSera]

I was able to access the article clicking on Maize’s post. This is the very famous and oft cited Trevor Project online survey. It has been heavily analyzed in many sources, including other research studies which include the methodological issues with the Trevor Project Survey as one of the bases for following up with more robust research. (I can take the time to list some of the reasons the above survey hasn’t been considered reliable, but I think just reading the methods will allow most here to see some of the problems, though not the ones that have to do with data validity.) A review of the research available shows it mixed and mostly low quality. This is a 2023 review published in Transgender Health The Effect of Gender-Affirming Hormones on Gender Dysphoria, Quality of Life, and Psychological Functioning in Transgender Individuals: A Systematic Review

Quote

Abstract

Gender-affirming hormone therapy (GAHT) is an essential part of gender affirmation for many transgender (including people with binary and nonbinary identities) individuals and although controlled studies are unethical, there remains limited evidence on the impact of GAHT on gender dysphoria, quality of life (QoL), and psychological functioning. Some clinicians and policy makers use the lack of evidence to argue against providing gender-affirming care. The aim of this review is to systematically and critically assess the available literature on the influence of GAHT on improving gender- and body-related dysphoria, psychological well-being, and QoL. Using Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Review and Meta-analysis guidelines, we searched Ovid MEDLINE^®, Embase^®, and Ovid PsycINFO^® from inception to March 6, 2019 to assess the influence of GAHT on (1) gender dysphoria, (2) body uneasiness, (3) body satisfaction, (4) psychological well-being, (5) QoL, (6) interpersonal and global functioning, and (7) self-esteem. Our search strategy found no randomized controlled trials. Ten longitudinal cohort studies, 25 cross-sectional studies, and 3 articles reporting both cross-sectional and longitudinal data were identified. While results are mixed, the majority of studies demonstrate that GAHT reduces gender dysphoria, body dissatisfaction, and uneasiness, subsequently improving psychological well-being and QoL in transgender individuals. However, all current researches are of low to moderate quality comprising longitudinal cohort studies and cross-sectional studies, making it difficult to draw clear conclusions and do not reflect external social factors unaffected by GAHT, which significantly impact on dysphoria, well-being, and QoL.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by KSera
quoting abstract

[Dmmetler]

Just a side bar on the medical care side. I'd mentioned that one of my BK's has had trouble getting treated for major period issues (likely adenomyosis/endometriosis, given symptoms and family history) due to being trans. 

 

Well, said kid is with dad this week, a state over. Apparently said kid passed out, and dad took them to the ER

The ER doc had no trouble giving IV estrogen to shut down the period, and, after hearing about the reason WHY the kid wasn't taking anything, gave a referral to a GYN on that side of the river. See, THAT state's trans health care ban was suspended in court, so doctors can treat without fear of reprisal. The kid commented a day later that they'd forgotten what "normal" felt like. So, out of network, pay out of pocket it is. 

 

All of the "are blockers in the best interest of kids" thing, for me, is immaterial right now. Because what's happening in my state and region is so far beyond a nuanced discussion of best practices it's not even funny. I also don't think you're going to get any sort of good data from the US because access, even before the most recent legislative season, was so spotty and now is even more so. I think the UK plan of enrolling all who are on blockers in a study is a good one. 

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

I also don't think you're going to get any sort of good data from the US because access, even before the most recent legislative season, was so spotty and now is even more so. I think the UK plan of enrolling all who are on blockers in a study is a good one. 

Yes, in general it seems a lot of the better done studies are coming out of other countries anyway right now.

I didn’t know IV estrogen could be given to shut down periods. I’m only familiar with the use of testosterone for that in trans men. Does estrogen work quickly for that? Testosterone takes awhile and has a tendency to cause cramping issues of its own between doses. I think IV estrogen could be a hard sell for trans guys though. (That actually makes that scenario seem particularly confusing, because giving estrogen to a female isn’t even trans care 🤔)

 

[KSera]

On the topic of kids and gender affirming medicine, I’ll once again drop this Reuters link. I like this one because it’s balanced; the case study they use as a jumping off point and weave throughout is a trans girl who has done very well so far with going the medical route.

Youth in Transition

This is one of, I think four in a series. 

[Dmmetler]

23 minutes ago, KSera said:

Yes, in general it seems a lot of the better done studies are coming out of other countries anyway right now.

I didn’t know IV estrogen could be given to shut down periods. I’m only familiar with the use of testosterone for that in trans men. Does estrogen work quickly for that? Testosterone takes awhile and has a tendency to cause cramping issues of its own between doses. I think IV estrogen could be a hard sell for trans guys though. (That actually makes that scenario seem particularly confusing, because giving estrogen to a female isn’t even trans care 🤔)

 

Apparently it can in the short term, and then hopefully you can get the patient established on progesterone or estrogen/progesterone (or, I guess, testosterone if you don't mind the secondary effects) to keep amenorrhea in place. It has some pretty major side effects at that level, which makes sense since birth control and the morning after pill do as well and this is a higher dose. 

 

It sounds like progesterone (either oral or by injection) is more commonly used long-term, but like testosterone, takes longer to take effect.  

 

The impression that both this kid's pediatrician and the GYN here seemed to have is that stopping periods in a trans kid counts as gender affirming care, and therefore hits the ban and they weren't going to risk it, so go take some Advil, kiddo.  But my state's law both makes them criminally liable AND civilly liable if a patient has regrets even 20 years down the road. It's exactly the same path our abortion ban has taken, where the risk of criminal liability for medical providers has led to a complete unwillingness to provide care even which is likely to be seen as completely reasonable and logical by all but the most extreme folks. I'm just glad Dad rented a vacation cabin a state over. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Dmmetler

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The impression that both this kid's pediatrician and the GYN here seemed to have is that stopping periods in a trans kid counts as gender affirming care, and therefore hits the ban and they weren't going to risk it, so go take some Advil, kiddo.  But my state's law both makes them criminally liable AND civilly liable if a patient has regrets even 20 years down the road. It's exactly the same path our abortion ban has taken, where the risk of criminal liability for medical providers has led to a complete unwillingness to provide care even which is likely to be seen as completely reasonable and logical by all but the most extreme folks. 

Yeah, that's just what I was thinking is that the parallels to the abortion situation are strong. Which, as someone said above is also the same thing happening in the other direction surrounding therapy. Someone didn't believe that it could really be true that any therapists would be afraid to provide real therapy to a gender dysphoric person in a state with a "conversion therapy" ban, but it's absolutely true in the same way as doctors in other states are afraid to help a woman experiencing a miscarriage or a trans teen with painful periods. It may not be what the laws intended, but all of those things are consequences.

[ktgrok]

11 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Who here is supporting a ban on adult transitioning? 

If adults want to transition, fine with me.

Just don't take my support for their freedom to do so as a sign I agree with any loss of female rights or freedom, don't gaslight me there is no loss and understand and accept  that not everyone agrees  gender should be a relevant organising principle in society and they might have reasons for that that are not motivated by hate.

 

Well, if there are no bathrooms they can safely and legally use in public, that sort of curtails them being in the public space. If the goal was just to protect women, they would include in laws about bathrooms a requirement that there be an alternative available for trans people - a single stall alternative or what not. That's not what is happening. What is happening is that a transman can't legally use the mens' room, and if they appear male they can't use the women's room  risking harrassment or even detention by the police. A trans woman can't legally use the women's room, and can't safely use the men's room. There are no options. Which again, is the goal - to make it so they just stop "being trans" or stay out of public spaces. Problem solved. 

 

[Sneezyone]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

Yeah, that's just what I was thinking is that the parallels to the abortion situation are strong. Which, as someone said above is also the same thing happening in the other direction surrounding therapy. Someone didn't believe that it could really be true that any therapists would be afraid to provide real therapy to a gender dysphoric person in a state with a "conversion therapy" ban, but it's absolutely true in the same way as doctors in other states are afraid to help a woman experiencing a miscarriage or a trans teen with painful periods. It may not be what the laws intended, but all of those things are consequences.

THIS PART (and louder for the people on a Venus/Mars bender). It is bad policy. On both sides. And I strenuously oppose legislators who propose/support both.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

11 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't know why you are quoting me repeatedly when I politely told you I was putting you on ignore for my own mental wellbeing. It's rude. 

The fine china comment is disgusting.

 

 

 

What you and I find disgusting are very different. Srsly, fragile dishes? I was quoting you as a jumping off point not because I expected or required a response. You need a break…take it. I have. You say lots of very divisive things (so do I) that shouldn’t live in the ether unchallenged. I don’t participate here just for the active posters but for the silent readers/followers who deserve more info/context. I post accordingly. I trust time to reveal the truth/value of everyone’s stances.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I’ve been on an estrogen/progesterone routine for years and years to shut down my periods—essentially it’s just manipulating a birth control dosage.  My periods weren’t even terrible; I just hated them so much and had sympathetic doctors.

It never occurred to me that could be considered gender affirming care—I have known plenty of women who stopped their periods. Wisp offers it through mail. 

[Sneezyone]

6 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I also find it very disingenuous to compare regret from minor surgeries to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones which cause sterilization, could affect brain development and bone density, and negate the ability of the child to ever experience orgasm. 

You think breast augmentation is minor? Ask those poisoned by silicone.

[Sneezyone]

The bottom line for me is that I don’t want ideological asses of any stripe legislating healthcare decisions for me/my family. Folks are entitled to their own flavor of cray, but not to impose that on everyone else. If/when, like cigarettes, a compelling case is made for one or the other course of treatment/recommendations, I’ll be here for it all day, everyday. In the mean time, bigots and clowns are running the show.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Well, if there are no bathrooms they can safely and legally use in public, that sort of curtails them being in the public space. If the goal was just to protect women, they would include in laws about bathrooms a requirement that there be an alternative available for trans people - a single stall alternative or what not. That's not what is happening. What is happening is that a transman can't legally use the mens' room, and if they appear male they can't use the women's room  risking harrassment or even detention by the police. A trans woman can't legally use the women's room, and can't safely use the men's room. There are no options. Which again, is the goal - to make it so they just stop "being trans" or stay out of public spaces. Problem solved. 

 

Again, I'm not in favour of bans. 

I'm in favour of ppl not describing female survivors of male sexual violence as 'acting like fine china' around an inability to access mixed sex provision, and of ppl making good faith efforts to find a solution to a clash of needs. 

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Again, I'm not in favour of bans. 

I'm in favour of ppl not describing female survivors of male sexual violence as 'acting like fine china' around an inability to access mixed sex provision, and of ppl making good faith efforts to find a solution to a clash of needs. 

 

 

 

For the love of God, no one was referring exclusively to ‘female survivors of male sexual violence’ but women/females overall. You do know there are female survivors of female sexual violence, yea, and those who never experienced sexual violence at all…like me? And women in all camps who don’t feel the need to dictate treatment or feelings for other women.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Sneezyone

[prairiewindmomma]

50 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I’ve been on an estrogen/progesterone routine for years and years to shut down my periods—essentially it’s just manipulating a birth control dosage.  My periods weren’t even terrible; I just hated them so much and had sympathetic doctors.

It never occurred to me that could be considered gender affirming care—I have known plenty of women who stopped their periods. Wisp offers it through mail. 

I think there are a number of drugs that could fall into this category that are widely used among all women. Lupron is used in treating fibroids and cancer and also in transgender care because it blocks estrogen so completely. A badly written law could sweep in hormone replacement therapy for post-menopausal women or hormonal correction for women with PCOS.

I don’t trust legislators to write good health care laws.

[Kassia]

6 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think there are a number of drugs that could fall into this category that are widely used among all women. Lupron is used in treating fibroids and cancer and also in transgender care because it blocks estrogen so completely. A badly written law could sweep in hormone replacement therapy for post-menopausal women or hormonal correction for women with PCOS.

I don’t trust legislators to write good health care laws.

I was thinking about Lupron.  I took it for infertility treatments.  

[SKL]

I love fully private, sex-irrelevant bathrooms.

Would love it if that was the way future construction was done.

Still don't want females to have to share intimate spaces with males, especially in places where there's vulnerability + no security, and especially in places that cater to populations that are statistically impulsive or violent.  Like high school locker rooms, prisons, etc.

Trans girls aren't so safe in girls' bathrooms either.  I remember there was a male dressed as a female who entered the ladies' at McDonalds and was beaten up pretty brutally by a couple girls.  I'd guess this is not rare, though most incidents go unreported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_of_Chrissy_Lee_Polis

And it goes without saying that trans boys are not safe in boys' bathrooms either.

Seems best all around to provide a third / fourth option for those in need of one.

Call it what you want.  Segregation for the purpose of a group's safety has always been accepted in the US.

[Melissa Louise]

20 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

I don’t trust legislators to write good health care laws.

No.

But when legislators can't be trusted, and the medical establishment can't be trusted, seems there are no actual solutions. Seems like the solutions are that trans people who can move state, those who can't suffer,  detransitioners shut up, a subset of the 'weak fragile' women just get used to not having a public life, girls and women give up their ability to organize as a female class, their sports and rights to safety, privacy and dignity, and we all just live in a world that's shittier for lots of people, trans nor not.

I place most of the blame on medical providers and their significant over-reach and lack of caution in this area. 

Ordinary people suffer when people in power (all kinds of institutional power) don't act with wisdom.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Nowhere have I stated that I was referring to minors.

(deleted story)

What I am saying is that disruption and uncertainty can affect a wide spectrum of people well outside of transgender or abortion care. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Nowhere have I stated that I was referring to minors.

I haven’t been able to fill my methotrexate (for my rheumatoid arthritis) at all for eleven weeks, after it being in shortage with the occasional ability to fill from last fall. It initially went into shortage because hospitals stockpiled to treat ectopic pregnancies given the uncertainty around continued abortion medication access. I am now having disease progression and other complications, as is my neighbor with the same methotrexate disruption in treating his pediatric leukemia.

What I am saying is that disruption and uncertainty can affect a wide spectrum of people well outside of transgender or abortion care. 

That link wasn't in response to your post.

It was just because people were talking about Lupron. It's a terrible drug, and plenty of women put on it for precocious puberty are now suffering severe side effects. 

[prairiewindmomma]

😬 (edited)

Edited June 21, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Melissa Louise]

We need better drugs (speaking as someone with osteopenia, cataracts and other syndromes as a result of a different class of drugs used to save my capacity to breath and hence, live), not more access to the same terrible drugs. 

Just another way health systems fail people.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

We need better drugs (speaking as someone with osteopenia, cataracts and other syndromes as a result of a different class of drugs used to save my capacity to breath and hence, live), not more access to the same terrible drugs. 

 

Let’s get on that. Sincerely. 😁

Edited June 21, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[Melissa Louise]

Oh well, mine are grown so I guess I can shuffle off now, lol

[prairiewindmomma]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Oh well, mine are grown so I guess I can shuffle off now, lol

Chuckling in dark humor. Sorry, it’s all I have left. Wishing you sincere best wishes. 

[maize]

I'm terrified of not being around to raise my kids. I'd love to be around to support them as adults, but the thought of dying before they are grown and hopefully independent as adults is my worst nightmare. 

Hoping to stick around for at least a couple more decades!

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, maize said:

I'm terrified of not being around to raise my kids. I'd love to be around to support them as adults, but the thought of dying before they are grown and hopefully independent as adults is my worst nightmare. 

Hoping to stick around for at least a couple more decades!

People are more than mothers and the end of active motherhood isn't the end of our desire to live. 

Anyway, my point was, it's not as simple as 'trust the doctors'. A lot of the time, they're not trustworthy. 

 

[maize]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

People are more than mothers and the end of active motherhood isn't the end of our desire to live. 

Anyway, my point was, it's not as simple as 'trust the doctors'. A lot of the time, they're not trustworthy. 

 

Not the end of a desire to live, no, nor the end of meaningful life.

But I think I'll be less actively worried about my life ending once I don't have a bunch of young humans nearly completely dependent on me.

Just the mini sidetrail my brain went down. 

And yeah, doctors are just human. Fallible like all of us, predisposed to various biases like all of us.

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

The bottom line for me is that I don’t want ideological asses of any stripe legislating healthcare decisions for me/my family. Folks are entitled to their own flavor of cray, but not to impose that on everyone else. If/when, like cigarettes, a compelling case is made for one or the other course of treatment/recommendations, I’ll be here for it all day, everyday. In the mean time, bigots and clowns are running the show.

Speak for yourself. I want people who agree with my ideology to legislate healthcare decisions for everyone. who cares if they are an ass? We have senators that can barely walk or talk, others probably corrupt out the wazoo, but dang if they vote the right way for me and mine, who cares? I can hardly blame the otherside for feeling the exact same way.

[Melissa Louise]

13 minutes ago, maize said:

Not the end of a desire to live, no, nor the end of meaningful life.

But I think I'll be less actively worried about my life ending once I don't have a bunch of young humans nearly completely dependent on me.

Just the mini sidetrail my brain went down. 

And yeah, doctors are just human. Fallible like all of us, predisposed to various biases like all of us.

Well I find that not to be the case. 

 

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

would this be evidence that puberty blocker side effects aren't always reversible?

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

would this be evidence that puberty blocker side effects aren't always reversible?

Reversible drug anything is magical thinking. Drugs change us; we don't have an undo button. 

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Speak for yourself. I want people who agree with my ideology to legislate healthcare decisions for everyone. who cares if they are an ass? We have senators that can barely walk or talk, others probably corrupt out the wazoo, but dang if they vote the right way for me and mine, who cares? I can hardly blame the otherside for feeling the exact same way.

I DID! And thank you for coming right out and speaking your truth! Folks need to know this is not a drill.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Dmmetler]

19 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Speak for yourself. I want people who agree with my ideology to legislate healthcare decisions for everyone. who cares if they are an ass? We have senators that can barely walk or talk, others probably corrupt out the wazoo, but dang if they vote the right way for me and mine, who cares? I can hardly blame the otherside for feeling the exact same way.

I pray you never are in a position where you or your loved one need care that was given away as a political talking point. 

 

I want everyone to be able to get the care they need. My feelings about said care only matter when it's my body (or that of my minor child's). 

[BronzeTurtle]

12 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I pray you never are in a position where you or your loved one need care that was given away as a political talking point. 

 

I want everyone to be able to get the care they need. My feelings about said care only matter when it's my body (or that of my minor child's). 

Well that's condescending. How do you know I haven't been?

look, if we are lucky enough to get socialized medicine it's allll gonna be political talking points for everything, deciding what care exactly people need, even more than now. it just won't be with insurance companies and what they have to cover. so you can just "pray" that the people who agree with your ideology, asses or not as the pp called them, are the ones in charge of deciding on any given day.

Edited June 21, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Well that's condescending. How do you know I haven't been?

look, if we are lucky enough to get socialized medicine it's allll gonna be political talking points for everything, deciding what care exactly people *need*, even more than now. it just won't be with insurance companies and what they have to cover. so you can just "pray" that the people who agree with your ideology, asses or not as the pp called them, are the ones in charge of deciding on any given day.

What’s *actually* condescending is presuming for you as you wish to speak OVER me.

[Melissa Louise]

I have to wonder how many actual drag queens are out there tearing themselves apart trying to work out how to be fair to everyone, women included. It wouldn't be non-zero, but it would have to be close. 

This whole thread is so gendered. A bunch of women trying to explain, listen, communicate, because we care about varying populations of vulnerable people, trying to parse out medical studies and laws and rights, all the whole parenting children and teens intensively. 

A whole lot of female labour. 

I would LOVE to be linked to a drag queen forum where there's a thread anything approaching the effort of this one. 

[BronzeTurtle]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What’s *actually* condescending is presuming for you as you wish to speak OVER me.

I have no idea what you're talking about. your posts are confusing.

I hear everyone including you saying they don't want idealogues and politics deciding on medicine. I happen to disagree as I think in less than 10 years we'll have the government administering all medical regulation in this country to the point of socialized, nationalized care and administration. ALL treatments that anyone gets from toes to brains will be decided on by politics and big bills going through congress mapping out what public, universal healthcare will pay for for each individual. if and when that happens, it would be preferable if the idealogues weren't on the "right" as it exists today. alas, i have said to much but the hostility over quoting you and discussing stuff on a public forum with someone who quoted me quoting you is confusing and bizarre.

Edited June 21, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[Catwoman]

I just read this brief article about young women who detransitioned, and I thought I would post it here. It's not scientific; it's a few women's personal experiences.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/uk-girl-who-detransitioned-after-transgender-surgery-says-she-feels-like-a-mutilated-experiment-gone-wrong/ar-AA1cOlQu?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=850ce45a1f254ee0a6342240f9d4fdfe&ei=12

[BronzeTurtle]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have to wonder how many actual drag queens are out there tearing themselves apart trying to work out how to be fair to everyone, women included. It wouldn't be non-zero, but it would have to be close. 

This whole thread is so gendered. A bunch of women trying to explain, listen, communicate, because we care about varying populations of vulnerable people, trying to parse out medical studies and laws and rights, all the whole parenting children and teens intensively. 

A whole lot of female labour. 

I would LOVE to be linked to a drag queen forum where there's a thread anything approaching the effort of this one. 

we at least know they care about the little children since they want to read to them in libraries?

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, BronzeTurtle said:

we at least know they care about the little children since they want to read to them in libraries?

Lol

The drag queens I've met (in my chequered past my then partner had come out of the gay community, don't even ask - but for a straight couple we spent a lot of time with gay men) were kind of vapid and spent a lot of time talking about sex and clubs. 

I'm sure there are nice, thoughtful, feminist drag queens out there. I just don't know if there are enough to make a discussion on complex social and cultural challenges.