Those of you whose math does not use the spiral technique...

[MitchellMom]

Edited to add: Can someone please help me figure out which Singapore to use?

I am clueless. I have looked on Rainbow Resource and my head is spinning with the choices for kindergarten: Earlybird 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, or Earlybird Standards.... Which do I choose? I would really appreciate the help! If you need me to tell you what my daughter can do, I will! LOL.

 

I hope I'm wording this correctly.... The spiral technique is when the match curriculum continuously reviews all that has come before, correct? Like Saxon, which I am using? For those of you whose math does not do this (such as Singapore, right?), do your children forget what they have learned because they do not review it over and over again? Just curious. You may remember how I expressed boredom with Saxon earlier and I've been thinking of switching maths to something like Saxon, but not if dd will forget what she learns....

 

I'd appreciate your input! :)

Edited December 21, 2008 by MitchellMom

[Tabrett]

Spiraling is when you teach a concept then drop it with no continuous review. Saxon 1-3 does not spiral. Actually, I think Saxon has different writers for 1-3 than 4/5 and up. From what I understand they are very different. Saxon starts spiraling in 4/5. Singapore and Horizons spiral from the beginning.

Spiraling technique believes that if you don't understand the concept the first time, that you will have a base knowledge the second time you teach and understanding will come.

Continuous review is considered the Mastery technique (I think). You learn the concept and keep reviewing so you don't forget.

 

Pros and cons

 

Spiraling-

Cons-Some kids never reach mastery.

It doesn't dwell on the subject long enough for the child to properly understand the concept.

 

Pros-Kid that understand the concept and don't need constant review never get bored.

Kids that don't get it the first time have another chance with a "mental" break on that skill.

Sometimes is "clicks" the second time around.

 

Mastery-

Cons-Some kids that understand the concept get "burned out" at having to do it over and over and never having a break.

They don't need the constant review.

Some kids aren't ready to learn the concept, therefore causing frustration when the concept could be dropped and taught later.

 

Pros-Kids that tend to "forget" a concept, always have constant review.

Once a concept is learned, you don't have to reteach it.

 

It really depends on your child. Does your child need constant review or do they thrive always having a new skill to learn and revisiting that skill later so boredom doesn't set in. Both ways teach. Finding what best suite you dc is the hard part.

[arcara]

We use Saxon now, but for K-3 with my oldest DD, we used MCP, which is a mastery (non-spiral) workbook program. At the end of each chapter, there was a test with that chapter's work on one side and a review on the backside. She DID have trouble with that review page. We would have to spend time going over some of the previous concepts so she could do that page. That's why I changed to Saxon. I realized that my dd needed a spiral program, and Saxon was the only one I knew of. We're pleased with it.

[chaik76]

My son remembers the concepts he's learned in the past with no review, so for us, it's not a problem. However, as a child I really needed a spiraling technique!

[MitchellMom]

Spiraling is when you teach a concept then drop it with no continuous review. Saxon 1-3 does not spiral. Actually, I think Saxon has different writers for 1-3 than 4/5 and up. From what I understand they are very different. Saxon starts spiraling in 4/5. Singapore and Horizons spiral from the beginning.

Spiraling technique believes that if you don't understand the concept the first time, that you will have a base knowledge the second time you teach and understanding will come.

Continuous review is considered the Mastery technique (I think). You learn the concept and keep reviewing so you don't forget.

 

Pros and cons

 

Spiraling-

Cons-Some kids never reach mastery.

It doesn't dwell on the subject long enough for the child to properly understand the concept.

 

Pros-Kid that understand the concept and don't need constant review never get bored.

Kids that don't get it the first time have another chance with a "mental" break on that skill.

Sometimes is "clicks" the second time around.

 

Mastery-

Cons-Some kids that understand the concept get "burned out" at having to do it over and over and never having a break.

They don't need the constant review.

Some kids aren't ready to learn the concept, therefore causing frustration when the concept could be dropped and taught later.

 

Pros-Kids that tend to "forget" a concept, always have constant review.

Once a concept is learned, you don't have to reteach it.

 

It really depends on your child. Does your child need constant review or do they thrive always having a new skill to learn and revisiting that skill later so boredom doesn't set in. Both ways teach. Finding what best suite you dc is the hard part.

 

So does Singapore return to a concept again and again in one school year, or does it rely on the next school year to cover a concept? (Sorry if that's a dumb question....)

 

We use Saxon now, but for K-3 with my oldest DD, we used MCP, which is a mastery (non-spiral) workbook program. At the end of each chapter, there was a test with that chapter's work on one side and a review on the backside. She DID have trouble with that review page. We would have to spend time going over some of the previous concepts so she could do that page. That's why I changed to Saxon. I realized that my dd needed a spiral program, and Saxon was the only one I knew of. We're pleased with it.

 

Hmm ... it sounds like you think spiraling is when a topic is continuously reviewed.... Which is it - spiraling or something else, as Tabrett stated? Now I am confused :001_huh:

[arcara]

I'm a little confused now, too :001_smile: I guess I don't know the right terms.

 

Anyway, I thought you were asking about math programs that focus on one topic for a chapter (like measurement) and then move on to another topic in the next chapter (like addition through 9) versus programs that mix it all up and have problems from any of the previous topics on that day's worksheet on any given day. MCP would've been the 1st one for us and Saxon would be the 2nd one. That's what I was talking about. Maybe someone else can clarify the terms.

[Ellie]

When I review a math text, "spiral" and "mastery" are not words that enter my mind. Both can be good or bad.

 

FTR, Saxon is not "spiral." It is incremental. It introduces a new concept bit by bit, a little more in each lesson until it's the focus, then a little less of that concept as a new one is introduced, bit by bit. There will be at least one problem of every kind taught in every lesson, so that the children work with every concept through the whole book. If it were spiral it would drop a concept and come back to it, yes?

[fractalgal]

I hope I'm wording this correctly.... The spiral technique is when the match curriculum continuously reviews all that has come before, correct? Like Saxon, which I am using? For those of you whose math does not do this (such as Singapore, right?), do your children forget what they have learned because they do not review it over and over again? Just curious. You may remember how I expressed boredom with Saxon earlier and I've been thinking of switching maths to something like Saxon, but not if dd will forget what she learns....

 

I'd appreciate your input! :)

 

Saxon is incremental. Singapore is mastery.

My children use a combination of the two. No forgetting here.:D

[EKS]

Here is my understanding of spiraling, Saxon, and Singapore.

 

Saxon is an incremental program, which is somewhat different than a true spiraling program. It will teach a bit of a concept and then have the student practice with a problem or two every day for a few weeks (and the problems will slowly get a bit harder) and then they will come back to the topic and teach just a bit more, and so on. All the while they are teaching other increments of other strands each day and the student is practicing everything with the review problems. This is why Saxon says it is very important to never skip lessons or problems in their program. Each problem is important to the progression of understanding of the topic.

 

Superimposed on this incremental teaching method is a larger spiral. Each year Saxon comes back and reviews material from previous years. This is why you'll see (fairly) basic addition being taught in the beginning of the 6th grade book, for example. Then it also will expand those concepts each year.

 

One of Saxon's strengths is its continual review. The review is actually a product of the incremental approach. Instead of doing a bunch of problems on a given topic and then moving on, Saxon has the student do a bunch of problems on the topic, but they are spread over several weeks.

 

Singapore actually does spiral, in that it does return to the same concepts year after year. For example, it teaches whole number concepts for several years, but each time the numbers get bigger. Same with addition; it is taught several times, but the numbers get bigger. If the student truly doesn't remember anything about addition, then you could quickly reteach the basics at this point and then move into the new material. Of course, this doesn't help for the rest of the year if the student has forgotten addition for, say, standardized testing in the spring because addition is done in the fall.

 

Singapore does have review pages scattered throughout the program. Another way to add more continual review is to add an Intensive Practice or Challenging Word Problems book (or both) after the topic has been explored in the main text. This can be helpful because it expands on a student's understanding of the topic while also providing review.

 

Math U See is an example of a true mastery program. The student does single digit addition and subtraction *for a year* and then moves on to multidigit addition and subtraction *for another year*. Then it's on to multiplication for a year. There are review worksheets throughout the program, as you might expect.

 

I just switched from Saxon Math 3 to Singapore 2B for my 6 yo. I had intended to do this after he finished Math 3 anyway. I had him in Saxon because he was forgetting previously learned concepts. I really do like Singapore better. It engages him and makes him think, which can be painful at times. But I also see that he feels really good about himself when he is able to do the "hard" problems. He never had "hard" problems with Saxon because it is so gentle. Once we get beyond this first set of lessons, I am going to add the IP and CWP books to serve as review. I really like Singapore; it is truly in a class by itself.

[Tabrett]

. If it were spiral it would drop a concept and come back to it, yes?

Yes.

 

That is my understanding of spiraling.

 

When I used Saxon 1 with my oldest dd, once you learned a concept there was alway a review. Review problems were at the bottom of the page for previous learned concepts. New concepts were the top half of the page (worksheet). You never stopped having review problem for previous learned concepts.

 

I'm doing Singapore with my k'er. There is a unit on counting. Then counting stops and we do shapes. Then shapes stops and we sort. Sorting stops then we go back to counting, adding addition concepts. When we do counting, we don't do any work with shapes or sorting. Your work on a concept and stop to do a new concept with out continuous review.

 

That is spiraling.

 

I'm looking ahead in my Singapore book. You do addition and stop. You do subtraction and no addition is reviewed. Then you do a very few pages of adding and subtracting and you stop and start time and money. Addition and subtraction is not reviewed while you are learning time and money. Once you start time and money, you are done with addition and subtraction for the year. You will pick up addition and subtraction next year.

[Tabrett]

EKS,

 

Thanks! I was confusing Mastery with Incremental!!!

 

Saxon- Incremental

Singapore and Horizons- Spiraling

MUS- Mastery

[MitchellMom]

Yes.

 

That is my understanding of spiraling.

 

When I used Saxon 1 with my oldest dd, once you learned a concept there was alway a review. Review problems were at the bottom of the page for previous learned concepts. New concepts were the top half of the page (worksheet). You never stopped having review problem for previous learned concepts.

 

I'm doing Singapore with my k'er. There is a unit on counting. Then counting stops and we do shapes. Then shapes stops and we sort. Sorting stops then we go back to counting, adding addition concepts. When we do counting, we don't do any work with shapes or sorting. Your work on a concept and stop to do a new concept with out continuous review.

 

That is spiraling.

 

I'm looking ahead in my Singapore book. You do addition and stop. You do subtraction and no addition is reviewed. Then you do a very few pages of adding and subtracting and you stop and start time and money. Addition and subtraction is not reviewed while you are learning time and money. Once you start time and money, you are done with addition and subtraction for the year. You will pick up addition and subtraction next year.

 

How does a child not forget things in a program like this? (I really want to switch to Singapore but hesitate for this reason)

[fractalgal]

Saxon is incremental. Singapore is mastery.

My children use a combination of the two. No forgetting here.:D

 

Singapore is actually mastery, but I understand that some of these definitions are a bit vague.

 

"Singapore’s texts also present material in a logical sequence throughout the grades and expect mastery of the material before the move to the next level. In contrast, mainstream American math texts and curricula frequently rely on a “spiral†approach, in which topics are revisited and reviewed."

 

http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/3853357.html

[MitchellMom]

We cross hairs over these terms regularly because no one can come up with definitions that fully describe them.

 

Saxon spirals in on itself many times in a school year. I have seen this called a super spiral or incremental.

 

Singapore covers the topic once a year but spirals around to the concept again the next year. I have seen this called a slow spiral and mastery.

 

MathUSee doesn't spiral at all really. It covers about one concept a year and only specifically comes back to it in the once a week-ish review page.

 

 

To answer your question...... No, my kids don't forget. It has been extremely helpful for them to stay on a topic for a while and really understand it before being expected to move on. I can't stand Saxon for that reason. You never get to really understand something before you get thrown in a totally different direction. I find it very frustrating and will never use Saxon.

 

All of my kids use MUS and dd also does Singapore for fun (really, she finds math entertaining so I needed extra workbooks.) If I set out Singapore for her too many days in a row she demands "real math" which means MUS.

 

What I have found with MUS is that the math operations all intrinsically include the operations they learned before. When you multiply you are in effect, adding and when doing multiple digit multiplication you add right there in the problem. When you are doing long division you are subtracting and multiplying within the problem. The review of those basic concepts is built right in. Epsilon is all about fractions but you learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide those fractions. All the review is there even if it never says "review".

 

 

So you use MUS also ... does that mean that Singapore is not adequate as a complete math program? (By the way, you did a good job explaining why it helps students not forget! :))

[elegantlion]

We use Singapore and consider it a mastery program. Just how I have defined it. Previously we used Abeka which I would consider spiral.

 

Abeka has problems of different kinds within the same assignment, that was driving my ds crazy.

 

Singapore keeps all problems in an assignment on the same topic. That works much better for us. He was having trouble switching gears within an assignment.

 

He has had no issues with remembering concepts from one book to another.

[Tabrett]

How does a child not forget things in a program like this? (I really want to switch to Singapore but hesitate for this reason)

Maybe someone else can answer your question because I don't know. :rolleyes:

 

I never intended to do Singapore for that reason. I just bought SP to tide me over until my dd is ready for RS. I really want RS to work for us. The "visualizing" math RS emphasizes is something I think important for my dc.

 

I started using RightStart A with my dd, but she wasn't able to grasp the concepts (Seeing that five dots is 5 without counting. She needs to count right now.), so I switched to Singapore and she is FLYING through the K level. Which is kinda funny because people told me that if she was having problems with RS she would struggle with SP too. Go figure? I bought all 4 k books and skipped 1A & 1B. They were too easy. She just finished 1B and we are starting 2B after Christmas. I hope to try RightStart again after she finishes 2B. I don't think 2B will take more than 9 weeks to finish, if that long.

 

Hopefully after having practiced counting she will be able to "see" quantities of numbers and will fly though RS A and be able to start RS B in the fall.

 

Saxon is an excellent curriculum. The built in review really bothers some people, but I think it is what makes the program really great. If you decide to do Saxon I will make one suggestion: only do one worksheet per lesson instead of the 2 given. The second worksheet is really designed for "homework" in a classroom setting. If you child needs the extra work then do it, other wise it is just busy work.

[angela in ohio]

We've had this conversation many times over the years on these boards, LOL.

 

FWIW, Singapore is not a spiral program. To be considered spiral, you have to return to previous concepts as a large part of each successive lessons' practice problems. Returning in another year does not constitute spiraling. If it did, then only MUS would be mastery.

 

You can tell a spiral program quite easily by looking at one lesson halfway through the book - does it have all practice problems from the concept just taught, or does it have practice problems from other concepts previously taught. Mastery may have a review section per chapter or the like, but a large part of the practice problems are not previously taught concepts. The difference is in the entire theory behind the program.

 

Mastery: Singapore, BJUP, Scott-Foresman Exploring Mathematics, MCP math, MUS

Spiral: Horizons, A Beka, R&S

Incremental (a subset of spiral, most would argue): Saxon

[Lady Q]

This has been a really interesting and helpful discussion! A little off-topic, but has anyone here used Miquon? Is that spiral, mastery or incremental?

 

TIA!

[angela in ohio]

I hope I'm wording this correctly.... The spiral technique is when the match curriculum continuously reviews all that has come before, correct? Like Saxon, which I am using? For those of you whose math does not do this (such as Singapore, right?), do your children forget what they have learned because they do not review it over and over again? Just curious. You may remember how I expressed boredom with Saxon earlier and I've been thinking of switching maths to something like Saxon, but not if dd will forget what she learns....

 

I'd appreciate your input! :)

 

Okay, now to answer the original question... It depends on the child. :)

 

I have one dd who needs review. She is unfortunately also a "whole to parts" learner. No math program works right for her, so I improvise. (I suspect she isn't the only child like this.) I use a mastery program, but I add weekly review myself. If she didn't need to go in-depth to get a concept, spiral would be fine for her.

 

I have one dd who is intuitive about math. She can learn from anything, and once she knows it, it will never leave her. Luckily, she thrives on a mastery program (I have them in the same book, which makes it easy on me,) because she doesn't need the review of a spiral program. She could also use a spiral and learn well.

 

You probably won't know until you try it if she will retain well or not. If not, it is easy enough to add review. You can also think about her performance in other subjects: does she remember information without review? (Though some children have different learning styles just for math.)

[angela in ohio]

This has been a really interesting and helpful discussion! A little off-topic, but has anyone here used Miquon? Is that spiral, mastery or incremental?

 

TIA!

 

It depends on how you use it. If you went straight through the book, I guess it would be mastery (sort of.) I followed advice to "mix it up" and do lessons from different concepts instead of covering one at a time.

 

I used it with Singapore for two years with middle dd. It was fun. :)

[Matryoshka]

I'm looking ahead in my Singapore book. You do addition and stop. You do subtraction and no addition is reviewed. Then you do a very few pages of adding and subtracting and you stop and start time and money. Addition and subtraction is not reviewed while you are learning time and money. Once you start time and money, you are done with addition and subtraction for the year. You will pick up addition and subtraction next year.

 

Singapore is actually a lot more subtle and sophisticated than a glance ahead shows. I have often wondered why we're covering something at a certain time or in a certian way, and then we begin the next unit, what was learned has to be sythesized and applied (where just looking at the TOC it seems like the next concept is totally unrelated), and I end up really, really impressed.

 

For example, in 1st grade, they start briefly with counting through 10, which includes set comparision, then number bonds. Number bonds are actually laying a foundation for understanding the relationship between addition and subtraction. Then addition (which includes the use of number bonds), and then subtraction (which is not a separate concept, since it's already been shown to be the inverse of addition through the number bonds). Then, numbers through 20, and addition and subtraction of those, and number bonds are used as well. A unit on shapes is next, which admittedly does not use addition and subtraction, so for a week or two you'd be not reviewing them, but you are using set comparision, which was introduced before.

 

Then comes measuring length and weight, which in 1st grade is just more comparision - in later years these units would include addtion, subtraction, and unit conversion.

 

In 1B comes comparing numbers, and then showing how that can be expressed as subtraction. Graphs, counting and comparison. Numbers to 40 is next, more addtion and subtraction, and adding three numbers (number bonds continue to be used). Then, multiplication, which starts as adding equal groups (see why adding three numbers came just before that?). Then division, which can be seen to be the inverse of multiplication. Then halves and quarters. Why that? Well, the next unit is time, where you have to apply that to half past the hour. Then numbers to 100, and more adding and subtraction. Number bonds are used to introduce methods of adding and subtracting the larger numbers.

 

Each concept should be mastered before moving on, but that's not because you won't use it for the rest of the year, it's because you have to know how to use it to master the material in future units. It will be used, but not as a simple review. You have to understand and apply it.

 

In 5th grade this year, we spent a lot of time estimating at the beginning of the year. I kind of wondered why such a big emphasis - well, the next chapter was division by a 2-digit number, and you sure had to understand and be able to apply estimation in order to do that effectively. There were no more simple questions of "round 36 to the nearest 10", but you had to divide a number by 36, which involves rounding it, estimating the product, and then determining what to multiply the actual number by. What's learned is not dropped it's used.

 

And there are also built-in traditional cumulative reviews throughout the books.

[cillakat]

For those of you whose math does not do this (such as Singapore, right?)

 

 

IMO Singapore spirals more than I'd been led to believe (in the reviews) and less than many programs that are meant to spiral (like Saxon, RS etc)

 

I love Singapore. Nope my kids don't forget the other concepts at all. But they are revisited in the reviews that come every few exercises....so they really can't be.

 

K

[Murphy101]

If you're interested in a mastery program, I have found that modern curriculum press mathematics is great.

 

no it's not glitzy or exciting, but I have some children who actually don't liek that or at least don't learn well with that - it's just distracting from the actual math concept at hand.

[SonshineLearner]

Also, though, since the op has such young children...do you really have to decide on your whole math career, even through grammar school? I have a 5 year old who I have decided to do math with only manipulatives, so far. Even if I had a math book like Saxon, I'd be the one looking at the book...and he'd be doing problems with manipulatives. I just received my abacus and 4 books from Nurtureminds.com I purchased an extra abacus so that I could teach my 5th grader, too. This included years 1 and 2 along with 2 workbooks for those years. These work from the beginning all the way up to division.

I also have cuisinaire rods and the Unifix cubes. So, I have spent my money on these activities for my son and in 4th or 5th grade he'll hopefully have his math foundation and we'll move on to whatever else we choose to do. (This is kinda my version of the Bludorn's take on math)

Carrie:-)

[dirty ethel rackham]

Each concept should be mastered before moving on, but that's not because you won't use it for the rest of the year, it's because you have to know how to use it to master the material in future units. It will be used, but not as a simple review. You have to understand and apply it.

 

And there are also built-in traditional cumulative reviews throughout the books.

 

I was just going to post something similar, but she said it so well! We had used Saxon 1 - 3 with my oldest. It just about killed his love of math and his natural aptitude. He found the increments of instruction just too small. Some called it incremental, some call it spiral, but I think it is both. The same types of problems are repeated in the drill over and over as review, but the increments of instruction on a topic are spiraled through the book (at least that is what we experienced in books 1 - 3.) My son wanted/needed a bigger bite at the apple and it was a huge source of frustration for us. I would have to scan the lessons to find when the topic would be presented again.

 

I looked at the upper level Saxon books and I felt that there was a ton of repetition of the exact same types of problems. I know it works well for many people, but I knew it would not work for us. We switched to Singapore (and had to go back to 3B after finishing Saxon 3) and have been very pleased with the results. My two boys are in NEM 1 and 2. DD is almost done with 2B.

[AngieW in Texas]

Singapore does have review, just not on a regular basis.

 

For instance, the 4B level that my 10yo just finished:

Unit 1 is on decimals with 15 exercises and 2 practice pages followed by 1 review in the text and 3 in the workbook.

Unit 2 is on doing all 4 operations with decimals and has 25 exercises and 6 practice pages followed by 1 review in the text.

Unit 3 is on measurement and has 1 exercise and 1 practice page followed by 2 reviews in the workbook.

Unit 4 is on symmetry and has 2 exercises followed by 2 reviews in the textbook.

Unit 5 is on solid figures and has 3 exercises.

Unit 6 is on volume and has 4 exercises and 2 practice pages followed by 2 reviews in the workbook and

1 review in the textbook.

 

For my oldest, the review in Singapore was just right.

 

For my middle, there was too much review. I had her do the reviews in the workbook only. Even that was overkill at times.

 

There wasn't frequent enough review for my youngest. She fell apart every time we got to a review, because she had already forgotten everything except what we had just been working on. She needed consistent, systematic review every day to keep from forgetting what she had already learned. The thing that has worked for her has been Daily Math Practice from Evan-Moor. It has just 5 math problems for each day, but it has provided just enough review for her to remember what she's supposed to do.

[The Governess]

We're using Singapore EB right now for K. I haven't noticed much review at all during this year's program. I imagine that when we get to first grade level, many of the concepts introduced in K will be reviewed in more detail and at a higher level of expertise. For example, in the K curriculum, time is introduced, but only hours are covered. I assume that in grade 1 time will be covered again, adding the minute hand.

 

I like the idea of the curriculum having less review problems. If dd is having a problem with a concept, it is easy to add in some extra practice. I bought Singapore's Power Math K workbook and if I feel she hasn't fully mastered a concept, I copy pages from the PM workbook for her to do for extra practice. We've only had to do this a couple of times. I would rather supplement where she needs it than use a curriculum with a bunch of built-in review, most of which will probably be too repetitive for her.

 

I've heard that a lot of people supplement Singpore with Miquon. I'm planning on buying the Miquon workbooks (they are inexpensive) and using them to supplement where dd needs extra practice. Here's a link that combines Singapore and Miquon if you're interested.

[mamaof2andtwins]

Spiraling is when you teach a concept then drop it with no continuous review. Saxon 1-3 does not spiral. Actually, I think Saxon has different writers for 1-3 than 4/5 and up. From what I understand they are very different. Saxon starts spiraling in 4/5. Singapore and Horizons spiral from the beginning.

Spiraling technique believes that if you don't understand the concept the first time, that you will have a base knowledge the second time you teach and understanding will come.

Continuous review is considered the Mastery technique (I think). You learn the concept and keep reviewing so you don't forget.

 

 

 

No, it is the other way around. :001_smile: Spiraling is continuous review. Mastery is not.

 

Jennie

[nmoira]

 

For those of you whose math does not do this (such as Singapore, right?), do your children forget what they have learned because they do not review it over and over again?

We're using Singapore Primary Math. The most important skill -- progression of operations with whole numbers -- is expanded in the first unit of each year and applied throughout the rest of the year. There are cumulative review exercises in the workbooks, and extra exercise books available (Extra Practice problems are about the same difficulty as the workbook, many Intensive Practice problems are more challenging than those in the notebook). What many do is use the workbooks and then use the Challenging Word Problems books a couple topics behind. So, if a child needs extra reinforcement and review beyond what is in the textbook, opportunities exist for this within the Singapore system.

[hischool]

How does a child not forget things in a program like this? (I really want to switch to Singapore but hesitate for this reason)

 

Well in Singapore, students have frequent quizes, tests and exams. Mastery/spiral does not make much of a difference because they have to constantly review previously taught material to prepare for tests and exams.

[Ellie]

This has been a really interesting and helpful discussion! A little off-topic, but has anyone here used Miquon? Is that spiral, mastery or incremental?

 

TIA!

 

I think it's irrelevant.:D

 

Miquon is manipulative-based, specifically, Cuisenaire rods. You help your dc discover concepts during sort of a class time, then give him the seatwork to use what he's learned. Many of the seatwork pages are open ended, i.e., more than one way to do it, so that the discovery process continues. With the use of the teacher's lab notations, you can either start with the orange book and go through all 6 books in order, or you can follow a specific concept through as many books as that concept is taught.

 

Miquon assumes that children already have a knowledge of Cuisnenaire rods, so it's recommended that you use something else first, before Miquon.

 

Some people think that Miquon is weak on math fact-memory, so they add in something like Calculadders or Quarter Mile Math for that.

 

Most children can go from Miquon (approximately 3rd grade, two books per year) to Saxon's Math 54 or the equivalent.

 

Anyway, because it is a process math and not a traditional math, I don't think you can really fit it into a category like spiral or mastery.

[Mama2Three]

Singapore is actually a lot more subtle and sophisticated than a glance ahead shows. I have often wondered why we're covering something at a certain time or in a certian way, and then we begin the next unit, what was learned has to be sythesized and applied (where just looking at the TOC it seems like the next concept is totally unrelated), and I end up really, really impressed.

 

For example, in 1st grade, they start briefly with counting through 10, which includes set comparision, then number bonds. Number bonds are actually laying a foundation for understanding the relationship between addition and subtraction. Then addition (which includes the use of number bonds), and then subtraction (which is not a separate concept, since it's already been shown to be the inverse of addition through the number bonds). Then, numbers through 20, and addition and subtraction of those, and number bonds are used as well. A unit on shapes is next, which admittedly does not use addition and subtraction, so for a week or two you'd be not reviewing them, but you are using set comparision, which was introduced before.

 

Then comes measuring length and weight, which in 1st grade is just more comparision - in later years these units would include addtion, subtraction, and unit conversion.

 

In 1B comes comparing numbers, and then showing how that can be expressed as subtraction. Graphs, counting and comparison. Numbers to 40 is next, more addtion and subtraction, and adding three numbers (number bonds continue to be used). Then, multiplication, which starts as adding equal groups (see why adding three numbers came just before that?). Then division, which can be seen to be the inverse of multiplication. Then halves and quarters. Why that? Well, the next unit is time, where you have to apply that to half past the hour. Then numbers to 100, and more adding and subtraction. Number bonds are used to introduce methods of adding and subtracting the larger numbers.

 

Each concept should be mastered before moving on, but that's not because you won't use it for the rest of the year, it's because you have to know how to use it to master the material in future units. It will be used, but not as a simple review. You have to understand and apply it.

 

In 5th grade this year, we spent a lot of time estimating at the beginning of the year. I kind of wondered why such a big emphasis - well, the next chapter was division by a 2-digit number, and you sure had to understand and be able to apply estimation in order to do that effectively. There were no more simple questions of "round 36 to the nearest 10", but you had to divide a number by 36, which involves rounding it, estimating the product, and then determining what to multiply the actual number by. What's learned is not dropped it's used.

 

And there are also built-in traditional cumulative reviews throughout the books.

 

Wow, this is a great explanation of how Singapore works! I'm even more impressed with SM than I had been. Thank you for laying it out in a clear way.

[Peela]

Spiraling is when you teach a concept then drop it with no continuous review.

 

This is incorrect- wondering if you just mistyped.

 

 

Singapore and Horizons spiral from the beginning.

 

This is also incorrect- Singapore is not what is meant by a spiral program- it is mastery.

In fact I don't think the whole explanation is correct.

 

Spiralling, as in Saxon (at least the higher books), involves regular, daily revision of previous topics, and incremental learning of new topics. It is designed so that the child never forgets what they have learned, but the downside is that some kids need the bigger picture and dont handle tiny increments of new topics.

 

Mastery is when one topic is gone into in depth- for example multiplying fractions- so that the child really "gets it" before moving onto another topic. It may or may not involve revision of past topics.

In the program I use (an Australian one) each topic is covered each year but in greater depth, and there are regular tests which cover the last few topics. Basically, there is a spiral but it is a yearly one, not a daily covering of many topics.

 

hth

[MitchellMom]

OK ... I really want to try Singapore! But how do I know which books to buy?! I've seen lots of "1A" and "1B" mentioned, but when I go to their site and look for kindergarten math, I don't even see the books labeled this way....

[Tree House Academy]

Very interesting thread. I have learned a lot. We use Singapore and love it. I am not sure what it "is"...I guess whatever these folks say it is because I don't go by the spiral/mastery thing.

 

My son is learning better with Singapore than he ever has. If he needs further review, we utilize IP, EP, or CWP. We love love love SIngapore.

[Tree House Academy]

OK ... I really want to try Singapore! But how do I know which books to buy?! I've seen lots of "1A" and "1B" mentioned, but when I go to their site and look for kindergarten math, I don't even see the books labeled this way....

 

1A and 1B are really not Kindergarten books, at least not IMO for a typically developing K'er. My K'er finished Calvert K math and I tried going directly to Singapore 1A. Nope. Wasn't happening. So, I dropped back and got the Singapore Earlybird B (standards edition) text and activity book and that was EXACTLY where we needed to be. We are working our way through EB now and will start 1A around Feb 15th or so. If your child is just starting K, I would get the new Standards Edition Earlybird A and start there. I use the EB without a teacher's guide. It is pretty self explanatory.

 

Here is a link: http://www.singaporemath.com/Earlybird_Math_US_Ed_s/135.htm

[Matryoshka]

1A and 1B are really not Kindergarten books, at least not IMO for a typically developing K'er. My K'er finished Calvert K math and I tried going directly to Singapore 1A. Nope. Wasn't happening. So, I dropped back and got the Singapore Earlybird B (standards edition) text and activity book and that was EXACTLY where we needed to be. We are working our way through EB now and will start 1A around Feb 15th or so. If your child is just starting K, I would get the new Standards Edition Earlybird A and start there. I use the EB without a teacher's guide. It is pretty self explanatory.

 

Here is a link: http://www.singaporemath.com/Earlybird_Math_US_Ed_s/135.htm

 

Earlybird (preK/K) used to have a 1A/B and 2A/B, then Primary Math (1st grade) started again with 1A. Now with the Standards Edition, they've repackaged them as described above - I'd agree with the recommendation of where to start.

[The Governess]

OK ... I really want to try Singapore! But how do I know which books to buy?! I've seen lots of "1A" and "1B" mentioned, but when I go to their site and look for kindergarten math, I don't even see the books labeled this way....

 

I'm using Earlybird Standards Edition and have the first four items listed on this page: Textbooks A and B and Workbooks A and B. You definitely don't need the teacher's guides, most of what's in there is just activities for a classroom setting, with a group of kids. There are other instructions at the bottom of the textbook pages for how to explain each exercise; these have worked fine for us so far. The textbooks are write-in, consumable books in full color. The activity books have some cutting and pasting and reinforce the textbook lessons.

 

ETA: Sorry, I just realized that Tree House had already replied with most of the same information... ooops!!

Edited December 21, 2008 by lovelearnandlive

[MitchellMom]

I'm using Earlybird Standards Edition and have the first four items listed on this page: Textbooks A and B and Workbooks A and B. You definitely don't need the teacher's guides, most of what's in there is just activities for a classroom setting, with a group of kids. There are other instructions at the bottom of the textbook pages for how to explain each exercise; these have worked fine for us so far. The textbooks are write-in, consumable books in full color. The activity books have some cutting and pasting and reinforce the textbook lessons.

 

ETA: Sorry, I just realized that Tree House had already replied with most of the same information... ooops!!

 

 

Thanks for the link ladies!

What about on Rainbow Resource? I do not see these books there ("standard"). I see only Earlybird 1A, 2A, 1B, and 2B. Which should I order if I order from them?

 

Thank you! :)

 

:):):)

[nmoira]

Thanks for the link ladies!

What about on Rainbow Resource? I do not see these books there ("standard"). I see only Earlybird 1A, 2A, 1B, and 2B. Which should I order if I order from them?

IIRC, Rainbow has Standards Editiion materials. I'd give them a call.

[Lady Q]

Thanks for the link ladies!

What about on Rainbow Resource? I do not see these books there ("standard"). I see only Earlybird 1A, 2A, 1B, and 2B. Which should I order if I order from them?

 

 

Jessie,

Here is the link to the Standards Edition of Singapore Earlybird Math on Rainbow Resource.

 

~Rabia

[Matryoshka]

I think Rainbow has both the old "US" version as well as the newer "Standards" edition.

 

The latter is longer, and has two different kinds of books per level, activity and textbook (I'm not sure if you need both or if not which is the more necessary one - I'm sure someone who has them can answer this)

 

The older version is just the workbooks - there are two per level, but the same kind of book, you use 1A then 1B, for example (teacher instructions are at the bottom of each page). I think you'd be fine using either - heck, for my older two I used the even older edition with Singaporean money.

[Mallory]

Here is my take on spiral vs. mastery.

 

Think of a pie, on each of the cuts think of a different math concept- addition, division, fractions, geometry, ect.

 

A mastery program travels down each cut staying on the topic, getting more difficult, then after several to many lessons it jumps to another "cut" and does a different topic. A spiral program spirals around our pie, crossing over all the very simplest ideas in each cut and getting more difficult as it "spirals" around, doing only one or two lessons on each topic before moving to something else.

 

Of course very few of them are really that clear cut. I also feel that sometimes the "teaching" part of the program can be different from the "problem set" of the program.

 

So if a text had 20 lessons on percents- to me that would be mastery- it stays on one "cut" of my pie for quite some time, to be straight mastery, it would only have percent problems in all of thoes lessons. But if it had all different kinds for review in each lesson, then it is mixed.

 

On the other hand, if the text had a lesson on percents, then a lesson on money, then two lessons on division, ect- that is pretty clearly spiral, especially if problems in each lesson had many various kinds. But if the money lesson only had money problems, and the percent lesson only had percents, then it is kind of mixed.

 

Then to make things really confusing, most mastery progams, spiral over several years. Singapore doesn't teach everything about addition the first time you learn it, it comes back with more difficult addition topics in later years. And most spiral programs may be almost mastery for a few of the more important topics, like addition.

 

Now you are probably really confused :confused:

[Nan in Mass]

When he tried Saxon 65 (5th grade after ps), he got the problems right, but we discovered after a year that he was unable to apply what he had learned because Saxon teaches a tiny step per day and he was not able to put the steps together to see the whole picture. Saxon was good at making him memorize the algorithms, which was useful, since he knew almost none of them after doing Chicago math in public school. We switched to Singapore when I realized that we had a huge problem. He was also a mass of misconceptions about math. He is creative and intelligent and worked out lots of patterns for himself, but the patterns didn't work under all circumstances. We switched to Singapore, backing up to 3A, to "fix" him. This straightened out his mathematical thinking. It also solved the putting-together-the-pieces problem, because Singapore tends to present a concept all at once, fast, and then spend a long time working on it. For example, in NEM1, the first few chapters are a continuation of PM with very challenging problems, then the next few chapters present most of the algebra concepts, and then the rest of the book is sections on rate/ratio/percent problems, word problems, and geometry where you practise the things you learned in the first few algebra chapters. There is review in Singapore, but a lot of it is embedded in the problems for a chapter about something else. This can be frustrating, but for the child who needs to see the whole picture before he can work with it, it is very good. My son routinely got at least a third of the problems wrong, and I worried about switching him from a program where he got almost all the problems right to one where he was getting so many wrong, but it was obvious that his thinking was straightening out and he was able to apply his math so we persisted. Many of his mistakes weren't mistakes in thinking but misreading mistakes, like thinking a 5 is a 2. Now he has just gotten a B in pre-calculus (after doing PM3-NEM3) at the community college, so I consider Singapore a success. There are a few drawbacks to Singapore, like some of the terminology being different, formal proofs not being taught, a few gaps compared to standard US textbooks, and the one that will bother elementary and middle schoolers the most - all that mental math means that there comes a point where you really have to sit on them to get them to show their work because they are used to being able to do everything in their heads. It is important to make sure that your children are thinking about the math the same way as the bubble children in PM, too, or you may run into trouble in the future.

Hope this helps someone.

-Nan

[MitchellMom]

Jessie,

Here is the link to the Standards Edition of Singapore Earlybird Math on Rainbow Resource.

 

~Rabia

 

Thank you!

So should I buy this or the other?:confused::confused::confused:

[MitchellMom]

Was just wondering ... for those using Singapore kindergarten math, do you also use the set of 10 readers?