AI-related anxiety. What are your expectations, reactions?

[FreyaO]

DD is almost 8, so still young. I'm getting uncomfortable with the idea that I have no idea what to prepare her for. I'm not sure that the AI developers themselves have a grasp on where we will stand 10 years from now. 

We are a low-screen family (not necessarily philosophically, but reading and time outside and other things come first and there doesn't seem to be enough time for computers - outside of adults' work). Is this all meaningless? The literature and history and such? Should I be looking into computer literacy more seriously? Should I let go of insisting on writing and other "hard" activities since there may be no need for them? I feel anxious about other AI-related issues too, but let's keep it on education here. Are you changing your educational philosophy or practice?

[UHP]

Wonderful question, unpleasant to contemplate.

I also have an 8-year-old. One thought I've had so far (not with high confidence), is that nine tenths of the opportunities that could open up for someone who learns to speak French or Chinese as a kid, might in 10 years be just as open to any one-tongued person.

I think (or only hope) that the three Rs (to a high human standard: reading a lot, writing well, lots of math) will pay off even as computers work more and more miracles in those areas. They will give our beautiful human kids a little bit of good judgement to face whatever bewildering things are coming.

[Malam]

Critical thinking is more important now than ever. You would be better off including things like the basics of how AIs train, alignment, biases, etc vs just plain old coding

Edited March 20, 2023 by Malam

[kirstenhill]

While we really don't know where AI is headed, I think education that teaches a wide breadth of knowledge, critical thinking, creativity, and interpersonal skills will always be a good background. 

I think if anything, computers will become easier to use and require less effort - think about how easy it is to ask Google/Siri/Alexa a question now, vs. even a few years ago when the only way to search was to type in a question to a search engine.  AI could make it less necessary for the average high school or college student to know how to use Powerpoint to put together a presentation, because the 10-years-from-now GPT100 could just put together the presentation for them based on a list of information that should be on the slides (probably far less than 10 years before that becomes the case).  But even 10 years from now, I still don't think AI is going to be excellent at truly novel idea generation, and it can't replace human touch and interaction (though it could make the jobs of doctors, teachers, therapists, etc easier). 

And even with AI becoming more powerful and making general computer use easier, I have a suspicion there will still be humans behind the scenes doing research to improve the AI, and solving programming problems created by years of legacy systems that will undoubtedly still be in use in a decade or more's time.  I think often of how my mom once told me when I was a middle schooler and interested in computer programming that, "By the time you are an adult, computers will program themselves."  LOL...she was a few decades off, that just now AI can generate some code.   But even if AI can generate some code, I don't think human programmers and engineers will be out of work any time soon.  (But still plenty of other kinds of jobs for people who have no interest in that field).

[dauntless dandelion]

We're going to read lots and lots of science fiction. Seriously.

So many of the new technologies have been anticipated and explored from many many different angles over the last... 150 years? AI is one, but there's also things like automation, genetic engineering, computer/brain interface, surveillance... You can go on and on. Reading science fiction gives you a vocabulary to talk about these things and to see what people have thought about potential pros and cons.

I started reading sci fi maybe in middle school, and right now my oldest is more interested in fantasy (as I was at that age). But eventually I'll steer my kids towards important science fiction books and introduce some of the best tv shows, too (Star Trek, etc).

I'm more convinced than ever that a "well trained mind" is vital for navigating the future. Someone's going to have to write the Orange Catholic Bible 🤷‍♀️

[Eos]

Such an interesting topic. 

We have always been a low-tech family at home, all four kids homeschooled K - 12.  Oldest has transitioned from being a chemical/nuclear engineer to cyber-security and interacts with tech, AI, and its fallout on the daily.

Interestingly, I would say that his capacity for critical thinking and problem-solving is less important in his career than his fundamental ability to be a kind person who interacts easily and well with all different kinds of people.  Obviously training and skills are important, but I think maybe I'm understanding this more now: I used to kind of knee-jerk react with "of course humanities will still be important" to now a more realistic position of really, being a good people person will be important in the future that will be more and more determined by AI, and humanities-based education can contribute to being a more interesting, more compassionate person.  

48 minutes ago, dauntless dandelion said:

We're going to read lots and lots of science fiction. Seriously.

So many of the new technologies have been anticipated and explored from many many different angles over the last... 150 years? AI is one, but there's also things like automation, genetic engineering, computer/brain interface, surveillance... You can go on and on. Reading science fiction gives you a vocabulary to talk about these things and to see what people have thought about potential pros and cons.

 

I detest science fiction but I actually think you're right.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Eos

[dauntless dandelion]

6 minutes ago, Eos said:

I detest science fiction but I actually think you're right.

I think a lot of people don't, and I get it. It's not thought of as "great literature" and sometimes it's not particularly well-written. I've always read books for pleasure primarily for their interesting ideas and not for their literary quality, so sci fi really draws me.

[dauntless dandelion]

Can't stop thinking about this, lol. A lot of this gets back to the question of what is the purpose of education, or even Wendell Berry's question, "What are people for?" Are you really teaching your kid a second language so they can get a job as a translator? Or is it to understand language (a fundamentally human facet), to appreciate a different culture (not a particularly marketable skill), or to be able to develop meaningful relationships with people from a different place? 

Backing off on teaching writing would get a huge no from me. Learning to write and speak well is how you learn to think and reason. I think there will be fewer people in the future with thinking and reasoning skills, but there will still be a critical need for those skills!

[FreyaO]

1 hour ago, kirstenhill said:

 

 it can't replace human touch and interaction (though it could make the jobs of doctors, teachers, therapists, etc easier). 

 

That was my thinking as well, that we will prefer to interact with and be taken care of by humans. Then I read this:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/06/can-ai-treat-mental-illness. The situation may be less straightforward than I thought. Just food for thought.

[FreyaO]

1 hour ago, dauntless dandelion said:

We're going to read lots and lots of science fiction. Seriously.

 

Interesting thought. Do you have some suggestions? 

It so happened, that I'm reading Margaret Atwood's Oryx and Crake right now. It's primarily about genetic engineering and a bit of climate change. Not sure I can take much more of this 🙂

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don’t see a need for anxiety about it. If someone knows the basics of literacy then they can pick up computers anytime and can start surfing anytime. Computer related tasks for the Average Joe have gotten more and more user friendly. Obviously if someone wants to program computers etc then they will need to learn more later but it’s not necessary for everyone. 
 

As far as the goal of education itself, I believe that “learning how to think and how to learn” is the goal. We can never teach everything that someone might need or want to know in life. A good foundation in the “grammar “ of language and math and science is important. A good foundational framework of content areas like history and science are also important. 
 

Those who rely on AI without basic knowledge to evaluate it against are going to be at a disadvantage. Teach real stuff and the counterfeits will be apparent. And if AI becomes useful for grunt work then that’s not an issue. 

[ScoutTN]

41 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t see a need for anxiety about it. If someone knows the basics of literacy then they can pick up computers anytime and can start surfing anytime. Computer related tasks for the Average Joe have gotten more and more user friendly. Obviously if someone wants to program computers etc then they will need to learn more later but it’s not necessary for everyone. 
 

As far as the goal of education itself, I believe that “learning how to think and how to learn” is the goal. We can never teach everything that someone might need or want to know in life. A good foundation in the “grammar “ of language and math and science is important. A good foundational framework of content areas like history and science are also important. 
 

Those who rely on AI without basic knowledge to evaluate it against are going to be at a disadvantage. Teach real stuff and the counterfeits will be apparent. And if AI becomes useful for grunt work then that’s not an issue. 

This!

[dauntless dandelion]

5 minutes ago, FreyaO said:

Interesting thought. Do you have some suggestions? 

It so happened, that I'm reading Margaret Atwood's Oryx and Crake right now. It's primarily about genetic engineering and a bit of climate change. Not sure I can take much more of this 🙂

I can rattle off a list of my favorites but they're mostly not appropriate for kids, which is why I'm holding off on introducing them until later. I think my DD8 is ready for Start Trek TNG though.

I just consulted with my DH to get a list of AI related sci fi... A lot of times AI is background to the main thrust of a story but I think most of these explore the concept more fully.

Hyperion series and Illium/Olympos by Dan Simmons - boardies might like him because he loves classic literature allusions. I actually couldn't finish Illium because at some point it seemed like it was just two AI talking to each other about Shakespeare and Proust 🤣🤣

Robots of Dawn series and I, Robot by Asimov

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Philip K. Dick

2001 A Space Odyssey

Snowcrash and Neuromancer by Gibson

Speaker for the Dead (sequel to Ender's Game), Orson Scott Card

Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect

The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem

My DH says this thread is AI generated specifically to keep me from my homeschooling duties this morning 🤣

 

[FreyaO]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t see a need for anxiety about it. If someone knows the basics of literacy then they can pick up computers anytime and can start surfing anytime. Computer related tasks for the Average Joe have gotten more and more user friendly. Obviously if someone wants to program computers etc then they will need to learn more later but it’s not necessary for everyone. 
 

As far as the goal of education itself, I believe that “learning how to think and how to learn” is the goal. We can never teach everything that someone might need or want to know in life. A good foundation in the “grammar “ of language and math and science is important. A good foundational framework of content areas like history and science are also important. 
 

Those who rely on AI without basic knowledge to evaluate it against are going to be at a disadvantage. Teach real stuff and the counterfeits will be apparent. And if AI becomes useful for grunt work then that’s not an issue. 

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I truly think this may be paradigm shifting.

Whether AI becomes useful for grunt work is not what worries me. I'm not sure I can even conceptualize the changes. Since I probably won't be able to express my thoughts effectively, at least not with investing a few days in writing, I'm linking this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/12/opinion/chatbots-artificial-intelligence-future-weirdness.html

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, FreyaO said:

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I truly think this may be paradigm shifting.

Whether AI becomes useful for grunt work is not what worries me. I'm not sure I can even conceptualize the changes. Since I probably won't be able to express my thoughts effectively, at least not with investing a few days in writing, I'm linking this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/12/opinion/chatbots-artificial-intelligence-future-weirdness.html

I can't read the article because it's behind a paywall.  But I have read articles on the subject.  Yes, AI can be misused.  And I read the articles about how it made up medical citations.  But human beings can still program guardrails.  And school districts (like the biggest one in my area) can ban the use of it in education. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Jean in Newcastle
forgot a word

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, FreyaO said:

Is this all meaningless? The literature and history and such? Should I be looking into computer literacy more seriously? Should I let go of insisting on writing and other "hard" activities since there may be no need for them? I feel anxious about other AI-related issues too, but let's keep it on education here. Are you changing your educational philosophy or practice?

No and no need to take computer literacy more seriously. My husband and I spent most of our childhood without much exposure to computers. Both of us figured them out easily as teenagers. The AI isn't doing actual "hard" activities very well, even writing it's doing a maybe passable job but not as well as someone who actually does it well.

I think it's more critical than ever to teach our kids to do the hard things. The hard things that are hard because of the critical thinking required or decision making required because those are the things that are truly difficult for machines to master or difficult to get a machine to master (it's hard to tell a machine how to tell between good information and bad information).  The hard things helps people learn how to tackle hard things so if they do have to learn other skills as adults they are capable of doing so.

The experiment, I think, in this article explains it well. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/02/1152481564/we-asked-the-new-ai-to-do-some-simple-rocket-science-it-crashed-and-burned 

[serendipitous journey]

6 hours ago, FreyaO said:

DD is almost 8, so still young. I'm getting uncomfortable with the idea that I have no idea what to prepare her for. I'm not sure that the AI developers themselves have a grasp on where we will stand 10 years from now. 

We are a low-screen family (not necessarily philosophically, but reading and time outside and other things come first and there doesn't seem to be enough time for computers - outside of adults' work). Is this all meaningless? The literature and history and such? Should I be looking into computer literacy more seriously? Should I let go of insisting on writing and other "hard" activities since there may be no need for them? I feel anxious about other AI-related issues too, but let's keep it on education here. Are you changing your educational philosophy or practice?

No, we are not changing our educational philosophy or practice. 

And it seems to me that you do not need to take computer literacy "more seriously" than ensuring that your child knows the basics of information safety standards -- not sharing personal information, how to behave politely online, and as she gets older, how to not leave a digital trail that will trouble her as an adult.  Re-assess in high school. 

The world needs deeply human humans.  It will continue to do so.

ETA: hugs, OP.  I freak out periodically myself.  But then I come back around again!

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by serendipitous journey

[prairiewindmomma]

Oryx and Crake is pretty disturbing reading. It’s in my top 3 of books that have bothered me. Be gentle with yourself, iykwim.

To your AI point…. There is a difference between teaching content for content’s sake and teaching skills and thinking, which often uses content as part of that process. As an example, history is often thought of by homeschoolers as a series of facts and maps and lists of people to learn and be aware of. But, for us, I often teach from a geopolitical perspective (how access to resources drives conflict) as well as taking a lens of how psychology/personalities/group behavior drives some dynamics in international relations. I focus on recognizing repeated patterns in history, or where anomalies were hingepin moments. 
 

Teach your kids to think, and think well. Teach them to see what drives what is being told to us as we live through history. Teach them to embrace science and learning and thinking for themselves. 
 

We have hit the point of no return on a lot of things, I think, with re: to the environment. Ethics, morality, and a deep tap into empathy and humanity are also important studies, imo. One will need to anchor oneself into empathy to remain an independent thinker as access to abundant resources decreases, people will turn to power to try to control access to limited resources.

[Not_a_Number]

We've always focused on critical thinking, how to learn, and how to be a good person. So I figure that'll serve the kids just as well in a computerized future as in another. After all, you still have to interact with knowledge and people. 

We're also fairly low on screens, and I stand by that. Computers are easy to learn to interact with. What's harder to learn is how to entertain yourself, or what you're really excited about, or how to focus on a good book. I figured they'll pick up computer skills as needed. The stuff we do now will last them for life. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[bookbard]

I love science fiction, but mostly enjoy the human focused books rather than 'space battles' (not a stars wars fan) or 'hard science' books. I highly recommend Becky Chambers' sci-fi books which are positive and full of interesting ideas and kind people, as well as Lois McMaster Bujold, which is almost 'space opera' (ie like soap opera, human focused) but deals with fascinating ethical and futuristic ideas. A good series for tweens and above is the "hive mind" series by Janet Edwards which also has interesting ethical ideas (sex is mentioned but not in detail; the main characters are over 18, but I was completely comfortable with my 11 year old reading them). 

AI is on the list of 'future concerns', but Covid and Climate Change are far higher, and I honestly think they'll take us out long before the robots do. I want my kids to learn to be kind and connected to their community, and so my education is literature based and discussion based. In terms of 'but what job will they do?' I honestly think with long covid there will be a big employment shortage and so there will be jobs out there. Being flexible and being able to adapt will be more important than having specific skills or qualifications (and that's the case right now too). 

 

[Clarita]

As a person that loves the science fiction genre, I would caution against reading science fiction to "prepare" for the future. It is probably obvious but it's science fiction and it encompasses a lot of books. While there are a few books in the genre from the past that has predicted some things that are happening now, we have to remember that as the same time those stories were conceived there were many others with technology and predictions that never came to fruition.  

[Momto6inIN]

I am definitely scared of what an extremely AI-influenced culture looks like. But it won't change our educational plans at all. I'll still teach my kids to appreciate whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, and of good report. I'll still teach critical thinking and literature and music and math and science and technology the same way I always have.

The way you teach cashiers/clerks to tell the difference between counterfeit $$ bills and real $$ bills is not to teach them all the ways a fake can be made. You teach them the hallmarks of a real $$ bill and then they'll be able to tell the difference no matter what new ideas the counterfeiters come up with. It's the same with AI. I don't have to keep up with all of its iterations as long as I know Truth.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is "Chicken Little" science fiction?  I do think that it's wise to be aware of trends.  But I don't think that we need to live our life under a cloud of anxiety. 

[dauntless dandelion]

34 minutes ago, Clarita said:

As a person that loves the science fiction genre, I would caution against reading science fiction to "prepare" for the future. It is probably obvious but it's science fiction and it encompasses a lot of books. While there are a few books in the genre from the past that has predicted some things that are happening now, we have to remember that as the same time those stories were conceived there were many others with technology and predictions that never came to fruition.  

I guess I don't really think about it as getting prepared for the future in the sense that you'll be able to anticipate trends exactly. More that it's helpful to develop a familiarity with these concepts in order to be a part of "The Great Conversation" 2.0, if that makes any sense.

I remember a couple of years ago a friend was telling me about this Black Mirror episode she'd watched (I've never seen it). It was about a woman whose partner had died but she paid for a service to develop an increasingly sophisticated chatbot/AI to replicate his presence. My friend said she could see herself using such a thing if her own husband died, for example. I kept my mouth shut, but honestly, I was horrified! I thought, surely that wasn't the point of the show? My gut instinct was that such a thing is a desecration of the soul, not to mention an unhealthy coping mechanism. I realize now of course that others must disagree with my opinion. 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ I comforted myself with my DH's perennial opinion (he's a software engineer) that AI was going nowhere.

Well, guess what? It's here: https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/10/18/1061320/digital-clones-of-dead-people/

There are also bots designed to be virtual friends for people who are lonely.

Then there are all the super rich people terrified of death who want to "upload their brain to the cloud." How is that going to be any different than a very sophisticated chatbot? But will there be pressure to give such a thing legal rights? (Altered Carbon explores some of this.)

I sort of suspect that regardless of what science might say about "consciousness" or "sentience" (which isn't a lot, actually, IMO that's more the realm of religion or philosophy) ordinary people are going to start treating AI as if they are sentient and that really will be a shock to society. But guess what, there's plenty of sci fi exploring human interaction with ubiquitous AI! So my thought is to start familiarizing yourself so you can form your own opinions about it.

Could AI ever truly be said to be sentient? How would you know? (How do you know that you're sentient, lol?) Can you create a true digital copy of a person? Should an AI ever have legal personhood? This is what I'm talking about with The Great Conversation 2.0. A great place to start on the pro-AI side is Star Trek's "The Measure of a Man." 🙂

[Jean in Newcastle]

The digital clones don't scare me.  At most, they are tape recordings of interviews designed to be triggered by key words in questions.  They can't truly give you new truthful information about their lives (unless they or someone else tracked down the information and fed it to the computer).  And while they could cause an unstable person to be more stuck in grief, that's true of all sorts of things.  The reporting of these things is a bit misleading because the author didn't truly "talk to her parents".  It can and will amplify certain untruths if the interviewee isn't completely objective about their views of self or even their memories or if the AI extrapolates to things that weren't specifically fed it.  So no, I would not use it nor would I suggest that others use it.  But it's going to appeal to the same people who cryogenicly freeze their loved ones etc.  And it would have ZERO impact on how I would homeschool anyone now or in the future. 

[FreyaO]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:20 PM, Clarita said:

No and no need to take computer literacy more seriously. My husband and I spent most of our childhood without much exposure to computers. Both of us figured them out easily as teenagers. The AI isn't doing actual "hard" activities very well, even writing it's doing a maybe passable job but not as well as someone who actually does it well.

I think it's more critical than ever to teach our kids to do the hard things. The hard things that are hard because of the critical thinking required or decision making required because those are the things that are truly difficult for machines to master or difficult to get a machine to master (it's hard to tell a machine how to tell between good information and bad information).  The hard things helps people learn how to tackle hard things so if they do have to learn other skills as adults they are capable of doing so.

The experiment, I think, in this article explains it well. https://www.npr.org/2023/02/02/1152481564/we-asked-the-new-ai-to-do-some-simple-rocket-science-it-crashed-and-burned 

Critical thinking definitely. I think an obvious consequence of Chat GPT will be the flood of mediocrity. It used to be that the limited resources forced publishers and other media to act as gatekeepers. Not anymore. Since everything can be published online, giving a forum to everyone is lucrative. Now we are removing another constraint: time. It used to take time to write...

I suspect that the article may be unfair to Chat GPT though - not that we are buddies 😉. Isn't it supposed to be a natural language algorithm? Was it trained on engineering or math to the same extent? I guess it's possible and I only skimmed the article. 

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, FreyaO said:

I suspect that the article may be unfair to Chat GPT though - not that we are buddies 😉. Isn't it supposed to be a natural language algorithm? Was it trained on engineering or math to the same extent? I guess it's possible and I only skimmed the article. 

It really shows where chatGPT (current AI technology lacks) and the challenges that technology faces. An interesting thing from the article is that for rockets science we do depend on computers to help us design and run those systems. To me it demonstrates that the technology still needs a lot of work to determine what is fact and applicable information vs what is not. (That critical thinking component.) 

FWIW I actually really like chatGPT and others of the current crop of AI chat bots. My husband used it to write his performance review. I'm super excited in how much time it's going to save me when I have to write sentiments in greeting cards. I've absolutely chatted with it about the dinner menu.

4 hours ago, dauntless dandelion said:

I sort of suspect that regardless of what science might say about "consciousness" or "sentience" (which isn't a lot, actually, IMO that's more the realm of religion or philosophy) ordinary people are going to start treating AI as if they are sentient and that really will be a shock to society. But guess what, there's plenty of sci fi exploring human interaction with ubiquitous AI! So my thought is to start familiarizing yourself so you can form your own opinions about it.

Could AI ever truly be said to be sentient? How would you know? (How do you know that you're sentient, lol?) Can you create a true digital copy of a person? Should an AI ever have legal personhood? This is what I'm talking about with The Great Conversation 2.0. A great place to start on the pro-AI side is Star Trek's "The Measure of a Man." 🙂

A lot of the questions about AI/robots the stuff that Star Trek brings up in regards to Data and synthetic lifeforms are questions that we ask today and in the past about people of different ethnicities, and animals and plants. The Expanse might talk about politics in terms of Mars and the Belt but, it's the same stuff we deal with on Earth between different countries. Jurassic Park might be questioning whether or not we should be trying to make dinosaurs (designer ones and just bringing back old ones) but that same question comes up about infectious diseases, foods (implications of us making fruits hardier, fleshier, seedless), and animal breeding. 

  

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, FreyaO said:

Critical thinking definitely. I think an obvious consequence of Chat GPT will be the flood of mediocrity. It used to be that the limited resources forced publishers and other media to act as gatekeepers. Not anymore. Since everything can be published online, giving a forum to everyone is lucrative. Now we are removing another constraint: time. It used to take time to write...

I suspect that the article may be unfair to Chat GPT though - not that we are buddies 😉. Isn't it supposed to be a natural language algorithm? Was it trained on engineering or math to the same extent? I guess it's possible and I only skimmed the article. 

What chat gpt is ok at (I wouldn’t say good at) is writing copy that doesn’t really need to be great. I’m talking about ad copy, reviews of various kinds, simple communication- the grunt work of writing. But it can’t think. 

[Nm.]

I took my cue from Steve Jobs years ago when he said he doesn’t let his kids on a screen.… science is just building on prior inventions/ knowledge.  The great “thinkers” and inventors were not on a screen.

[Eos]

On 3/21/2023 at 2:08 PM, dauntless dandelion said:

Well, guess what? It's here: https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/10/18/1061320/digital-clones-of-dead-people/

 

This was an interesting read.  I'm a devout believer in evolution.  As humans we've spent 2 million years considering death and mourning, building up enormous resources (religion, stories, architecture, governments) to assuage our fear.  The nano-sliver of time that is this modern age seems universal and impeccable, but compared to the length of time we've been working on this deeply human project is almost imperceptibly small. 

This tech is kind of quaint in its sincerity.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Eos

[Lecka]

I read the first two books of Oryx and Crake earlier this year, because my 17-year-old son wanted to read them. He has turned out to only read the first book.
 

I have decided to have a long pause before book three, because of the content.

 

It is just disturbing content.  
 

But I am a grown up……

 

In my younger years, Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut Jr was very influential to me, and so was…. I am blanking on the name of this book right now, but it’s about a future society where they sort people into jobs and they give alcohol to babies who are going to grow up to do menial jobs, to make them cognitively impaired.  And they take children to be around dying people (or maybe elderly people), but make it like an amusement park.  A very disturbing book to me when I read it!!!!!!

 

There is also a short story by James Tiptree Jr that I read in my young 20s that was very influential to me, but less than it would have been if I read it before reading these other two books.  
 

Anyway, those are books that I think had this kind of “technological dystopia” to me.

 

And they were more along the lines of “people are so dumb now that they watch tv!”  On one hand.  On the other hand, they make some good points!  
 

Edit:  Brave New World by Aldous Huxley.

 

I had Googled a list of dystopian fiction, and I can’t believe I forgot about Parable of the Giver and Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler!!!!!!!  I read those while I had little kids.  Wow, very thought-provoking.  
 

Edit:  and the James Tiptree Jr was “The Girl Who Was Plugged In.”  

Edited March 24, 2023 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I am also very sensitive to what I read, sometimes more than others, and sometimes I just say “I will not read this now, I am not in the right place mentally.”  
 

And then other times I can read those books and it challenges me, but isn’t bad for me.  
 

I agree with the pp who said to be gentle with yourself.  

[Lecka]

Also in Oryx and Crake, I really liked/appreciated how the author envisioned a religious group as a force for good.  At least in Book 2, lol.  To be positive!  

[Lecka]

I’m also not a fan of my son reading Oryx and Crake, but he heard of it and wanted to read it, and then my choices are — what, tell him no?  And then somehow keep him from doing it anyway?  
 

He is 17 and about to turn 18, as well.

 

We did have a couple of good conversations about the Internet.

 

It was thought-provoking to him.  
 

I do think he decided to quit reading as well, which is fine with me.  
 

He told me he saw it on a list of books that are commonly assigned in college, and liked the blurb.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Parable of the Sower's storyline was set in 2024. Her neighborhood attack was set in 2027. Great book--and she nailed the issues of climate change, wealth inequality, distrust in police, and some of the other things we are actually dealing with in 2023. Thankfully IRL isn't as bad as the book.....but I think about the book when I drive I-5 and 101 in Northern California.

 

[Lecka]

There’s another thing, which is that some books come across really differently after someone has kids.  
 

I had this with Despereaux by Kate DiCamillo, it was a popular book when my kids were little. 
 

To a lot of parents, it’s a disturbing book with graphic descriptions of child abuse.  
 

But a lot of upper-elementary kids love it and don’t respond to it the same way.  
 

At the time — I knew other parents who were really bothered by this book, but no kids were bothered by it.  
 

I got this book as an audiobook, not knowing much about it, because it was my niece’s favorite book and we were going to be driving together.  She was in 5th grade, and in 4th grade her teacher read this book to her class, and then the class voted to have the teacher read it a second time, and she was excited to hear it a third time.  
 

But then on the trip I found it so disturbing!

 

My own kids were too little to pay attention, and it was a relief to me.  
 

I’ve heard about this with other things now, but I hadn’t heard of it before.  I had never noticed/minded the fairy tales where children are left in dire circumstances with no parents, or Disney movies about orphans, but then a few things have really gotten to me.  That are just not taken the same way by kids, because — they are identifying with the hero of the story.

 

Which doesn’t exactly apply to Oryx and Crake, but I do think I read it very differently with what characters I identified with, compared to my son.  But I didn’t read it thinking “oh no this is what my little child is going to deal with.”  I read it like — well, my son is old enough to think about the way women and poor people can be taken advantage of in our society.  And how coarsening it can be for consumers.  There was also such a total abdication of parenting for a lot of the main characters, which struck me but I don’t think it struck my son.  
 

I don’t want my daughter to read this book, though, I want her to be more protected.  But if she decides to read this book and talk about it with me, I will deal with it.  
 

The Parable of the Sower is a book that really hit me when I read it because it had themes of parents not being able to protect their kids, and I read it when I had little kids.  It is also a book that made a big impact on me with climate change, I had not thought about climate change the same way before I read it.  I thought of it more as a goofy Al Gore thing before I read it.  And then that is troubling to realize while having little kids.  Hurricane Katrina happened while my oldest son was a baby, as well.  

[Lecka]

I’m just going to add, it was hard on me when my son read Oryx and Crake.  I was shocked by some of the content but I was also thinking — wow, young people my son’s age read this book.  
 

And live in a world where there is a lot of sick stuff on the Internet, that truly was not part of my life when I was growing up.  
 

But now it’s like — it is an issue.  
 

Some of my son’s attitude is that he has already come to terms with how to navigate the Internet and stay away from the sick stuff, and the conspiracy theory stuff, and the white supremacy stuff.  Or that is what he told me!  But this is a book that does look at the Internet in a way I don’t think either of us had really looked at it before.  

 

 

[LauraClark]

I saw this article and thought of this topic:

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-65102150

 

My take aways are, yes, it's likely that AI is going to end a lot of jobs, but it will also open up a ton of opportunities. One of the things I'm trying to do for my kids is not pigeon hole them into a career. So often we ask our kids what they want to be. DS11 will respond with "author". I'm trying to show him the things he enjoys: he enjoys being creative with words and telling a story. Where can you use that ability? In a million different jobs-not just "author". I enjoyed photography and pursued a degree in photography. I ended up switching majors half way through because I could see that there were a lot of aspects about being a photographer that weren't going to work for me. I don't take a ton of pictures anymore, but I do enjoy thinking about things in a creative way-part of my personality that made me think photography was what I wanted. All that to say, we can't predict the future and what society will look like or what jobs will be available (but we've never been able to do that!)-we can encourage our kids in the things they are gifted in, I think in a general sense rather than a specific sense-even if those things don't turn out to be careers for them.

[Garga]

My youngest son graduates from high school this year and starts college in the fall. He’s not sure what he wants to do, but has tossed around the idea of being a science writer. They are the people who know about science and write about it in ways that the layman can understand. Probably it’s a science writer who writes articles about Covid for the CDC website. 

But now, I just don’t know. Will humans even do that anymore in few years? I find it distressing.