Attachment styles and intergenerational trauma

[YaelAldrich]

25 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t really understand what it is about your personality that makes you get so tensed up and irritated when people suggest therapy.  What makes it so hard for you to just scroll past the advice you don’t want?

Also I find this type of thread awkward because I can’t fathom what makes it impossible to live with my spouse unless they are being abusive in some way. And abusive people don’t respond to marriage counseling anyway……so that wouldn’t help.  
 

Maybe I am just old but this is not that complicated. Vow to be kind and respectful to each other and apologize when you screw up.  I agree with @Murphy101…..we are all human and we just have to do the best we can.,

@Scarlett, I don't want to pick a fight with you but don't you also say that therapy isn't for you as well?

The familial dysfunction can make it like (or actually be) an abusive relationship. I know the severe avoidance my DH learned from his FOO was abusive to me. He did learn (through therapy) what he was doing and how to try to stop that behavior. 

And commenting on your last paragraph; when there is (unresolved ) dysfunction in a intimate relationship it doesn't work that easily because the ingrained relationship reactions are messed up so a normal resolution can't happen. 

[Lecka]

I think it is brave to want a good home situation for oneself and on behalf of young children.

 

I also think it’s brave to give a spouse a chance to work on their issues and try to make a marriage work.

 

I think there are times when a person can really benefit from space and an absence from usual daily routines.  I think it’s extreme but I think it’s worth trying it.  I think it can work.  
 

I also think it can give a chance for a re-set when someone returns, to figure out new routines and dynamics.

I pray there can be a good resolution here.  But I don’t think it’s a sure thing, it sounds like it will require the spouse to make some major changes and that can be very hard.  
 

 

 

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

@Scarlett, I don't want to pick a fight with you but don't you also say that therapy isn't for you as well?

The familial dysfunction can make it like (or actually be) an abusive relationship. I know the severe avoidance my DH learned from his FOO was abusive to me. He did learn (through therapy) what he was doing and how to try to stop that behavior. 

And commenting on your last paragraph; when there is (unresolved ) dysfunction in a intimate relationship it doesn't work that easily because the ingrained relationship reactions are messed up so a normal resolution can't happen. 

Oh sure I am not a huge fan of therapy.   But when people suggest it to me I don’t get tensed up and triggered.

And I guess I could see where total avoidance could be very difficult to live with.  I think calling it abusive is a stretch, but I don’t really have experience with that so I guess I can’t say.  

[cintinative]

9 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

 

The familial dysfunction can make it like (or actually be) an abusive relationship. I know the severe avoidance my DH learned from his FOO was abusive to me. He did learn (through therapy) what he was doing and how to try to stop that behavior. 

And commenting on your last paragraph; when there is (unresolved ) dysfunction in a intimate relationship it doesn't work that easily because the ingrained relationship reactions are messed up so a normal resolution can't happen. 

^^^  This.  Conflict avoidance IS conflict.

And years of conflict avoidance bring about lack of connection. And lack of connection breeds loneliness. Yes, it is possible to be very lonely in a marriage.  

Something that came out for us in therapy is what is called "negative sentiment override."  Basically you stop believing the best of your spouse, your past memories get rewritten in the negative, and there are trust issues.

This is why is it is possible to be in a marriage with someone who is "not abusive" and still feel completely and utterly unhappy and alone.  

And like @YaelAldrich my husband and I would have not gotten anywhere trying to address our many, multi-layered issues by ourselves.  That is our experience.  I know the OP is looking for us to speak into hers. Unfortunately I can only speak from mine, which is that we would not be moving forward without help.

Edited February 2, 2023 by cintinative

[kbutton]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And I guess I could see where total avoidance could be very difficult to live with.  I think calling it abusive is a stretch, but I don’t really have experience with that so I guess I can’t say.  

It's crazy making. It's like being gaslit in that it makes you question if your concerns and perceptions are real. It multiplies when there are big deal things going on, like needing to get a kid diagnosed with a learning issue. 

It's like having a chair that looks solid and steady and cozy, but when you sit it in, it slumps to the floor in a way that you just roll off. But when you look at it even right after rolling off, the chair is just a chair. When others look at it, it's just a chair. But it's the only place you have to sit, and it just refuses to let you sit on it. People say things like, "how can you not sit on a chair" or "how can it refuse to let you sit on it?" "You must not have good enough boundaries." If you try to force things or shore up the chair, then it keeps developing new ways to not be a chair. 

ETA: Or it develops ways to be a table instead and says it's being a chair. Like thousands of ways to avoid being a chair but being "something" vaguely meant to be helpful but still isn't a chair, and you need a chair.

Edited February 2, 2023 by kbutton

[Murphy101]

 

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Also I find this type of thread awkward because I can’t fathom what makes it impossible to live with my spouse unless they are being abusive in some way. And abusive people don’t respond to marriage counseling anyway……so that wouldn’t help.  

That’s actually not always true. Abusive people can also be people who want to become better to those they love.

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe I am just old but this is not that complicated. Vow to be kind and respectful to each other and apologize when you screw up.  I agree with @Murphy101…..we are all human and we just have to do the best we can.,

I’m not sure you do agree with me? People who love each other hurt each other every day, most of the time not even knowing it. 

I can be aware of that and be very forgiving and still be hurting.

Our society makes people feel deep shame for being dysfunctional or coming from dysfunction. It’s ridiculous bc everyone is broken and dysfunctional but no one wants to admit that either.

As for therapy. I’m of two opinions. When it’s good - it’s great. When it’s not good - it adds more scars. To broken people trying to live with open wounds, it’s hard to scroll past the suggestion to sign up for getting more scars if they want healing. 

BTDT and broke the bank on it for added insult to injury. 

[Not_a_Number]

It’s not the suggestion of therapy itself that’s stressful. The suggestion is both natural and kind.

It’s the fact that people are pushing me about it, despite the fact that this is a deeply personal topic I’ve repeatedly asked not to discuss. Given my own triggers and my own traumas, I find this interaction really unpleasant. 

[Not_a_Number]

As for what I want from this thread… I always want the same thing from threads. I like reading about the breadth of human experience and about people’s hard-won wisdom, because mulling it over is how I learn. 

I know there are no quick fixes and that this is not primarily my project. I’m just along for the ride. 

ETA: to clarify, we’re talking a lot and both really want this to work.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[fairfarmhand]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It’s not the suggestion of therapy itself that’s stressful. The suggestion is both natural and kind.

It’s the fact that people are pushing me about it, despite the fact that this is a deeply personal topic I’ve repeatedly asked not to discuss. Given my own triggers and my own traumas, I find this interaction really unpleasant. 

I hear you. You have a parent who doesn't listen to you and respect what you want, even to very personal things. So when people push things on you that you don't want, there's a kneejerk response. My hope is that sometime, that part of you can find healing. I feel strongly that it's not always the time to seek healing for particular things. It's ok if this is one that you need to take a knee on for the time being. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I hear you. You have a parent who doesn't listen to you and respect what you want, even to very personal things. So when people push things on you that you don't want, there's a kneejerk response. My hope is that sometime, that part of you can find healing. I feel strongly that it's not always the time to seek healing for particular things. It's ok if this is one that you need to take a knee on for the time being. 

Yes, that’s why it’s triggering.

And I’ve done a ton of healing in the last year. I feel very lucky. 

[Kuovonne]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:35 PM, Not_a_Number said:

On a very mildly related note, Encanto is an awesome movie that's really all about intergenerational trauma

The musical “Into the Woods” is also very much about inter generational trauma. It also touches on other issues like adoption, infidelity, marital strife, financial decisions, special needs, emotional attachment, and more. I was lucky enough to see it live last summer, and it gave me a lot to think about.
 

I haven’t seen the movie versions so I don’t know if they are as deep as the live musical. I believe that student versions tend to be adapted and may not be as deep.

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

It’s not the suggestion of therapy itself that’s stressful. The suggestion is both natural and kind.

It’s the fact that people are pushing me about it, despite the fact that this is a deeply personal topic I’ve repeatedly asked not to discuss. Given my own triggers and my own traumas, I find this interaction really unpleasant. 

I appreciate that you recognize the suggestion is natural and kind. I'd like to offer some thoughts, but be aware that I do not know or understand your personal reasons for feeling so strongly about therapy. I do trust that you have valid reasons for your feelings, but I do not know what those reasons are. I'm just offering some thoughts to try to help ease the intensity. 

Keep in mind that the nature of a public message board is random. People don't remember all the details. They don't even see all the details all the time. And there's an awful lot that gets all muddled up in the mind as being something-I-read-on-the-boards and isn't necessarily remembered as being attached to a specific person. Or may be remembered attached to the wrong person. Some people say stuff because they simply don't remember to do otherwise or missed the announcement in the first place. 

Another thing to keep in mind that some may find it difficult to share their experience without sharing the therapy that helped them. For some people, it's all entwined and it's hard to tell the story without also sharing the path through which they found help. It's not about you. 

Along with that, sometimes what a person did in therapy might be something you might like to do outside of therapy, on your own. 

I'm not in any way reprimanding. Rather, my intention is to help find a way that those posts can be less triggering for you. 

[City Mouse]

5 hours ago, cintinative said:

^^^  This.  Conflict avoidance IS conflict.

And years of conflict avoidance bring about lack of connection. And lack of connection breeds loneliness. Yes, it is possible to be very lonely in a marriage.

This statement really resonated with me today, not so much about my spouse, but more about my mother. My mother is so very stuck in avoiding conflict, and this created a real lack of connection  between her and all of her 5 children. She lies to avoid conflict, but her lies creat conflicts between the rest of us (at least until we figured out what she was doing). There is now a 3 party caregiver for my mom. Mom lies and exaggerates about this caregiver (supposedly we do things that the care giver doesn’t like) so now all siblings are avoiding being around my parents when caregiver is present. I won’t derail this thread by giving more details here, but I could see how this type of dynamic would destroy a marriage. while my parents are still married, it is far from happy and has never really seemed happy. There have been many, many times both as kids and as adult children that we wished our parents would get divorced because we thought things would be better or at least no worse than it already was.

I’ve got no suggestions or words of wisdom for you, but I feel for you and wish I knew what might help.

[popmom]

On 2/1/2023 at 6:42 AM, Indigo Blue said:

I just think I’ve been a bit of an anomaly in that I’ve always, even when young, seen the unfairness in the treatment of us. I say anomaly because I think some children just absorb instead of having the ability to see “something just isn’t right” at a young age.  I didn’t think of it in terms of it being abuse, though, and it was all somewhat normalized, but I was often upset or crying in bed over something my mom said or did. I didn’t know what narcissistic personality disorder was until I was in my 50’s. My mom also has very positive traits. She can be such a “good” person but also so abusive. That made me very confused and left me trying to figure out whether I was “good” or “bad”. I often felt bad in her eyes. Now I know I was never bad. I was just a child who didn’t receive enough guidance. I was quiet and compliant by nature.

By the time our boys came along, I was aware that I wanted to be a different kind of parent. I wasn’t an emulator. I wasn’t perfect, but I took my “chance to do better” very seriously. Now, that I’m older and have learned about abuse and have come out of the fog FULLY, I’ve thought more about the ways my mom parented (dad was absent) and how that affects/affected the way I relate to our sons and my dh that I might not be aware of. “Fleas” as they call it. That awareness has led to my working on myself and trying to improve even more. I’ve been more aware of my sons having their own boundaries and autonomy in a more concrete, educated way, instead of just going on my intuition of what  “doing better” looks like. 

As for relationships outside of that, I fully admit I’m trending towards avoidant. My personality has attracted many people who have hurt me in very real and deep ways. I’m already introverted in the first place by nature, so I’m actually content, really, with this. I do not have a bad attitude toward people. I have just learned that making myself happy hurts a lot less than trying to make others happy. I still want to, but I don’t trust myself or others. 

I am over apologizer. A ruminator of a thing I may or may not have done to bother someone inadvertently. A wanting to blend in and not be seen type. A keep my real feelings inside type. A slow to anger but explode when finally had enough type. Easily triggered…. in my head….you’d never know. I used to be a people pleaser. I did overcome that, mostly. 

I am having to work toward no longer being afraid of my mom. 

Having said all that, I do feel as though I have healed so much and am getting closer to being a more consistent, sure version of myself. Slowly. 

I work on it all the time. Every day. Always aware. This is what intergenerational trauma looks like for me and how I’ve tried to process it. (I’ve never had therapy).

I will always have a social limp. I accept that now and no longer really care what anyone thinks about that.

My mom was abused. She wasn’t protected from that abuse. She is highly anxious. She can rage when triggered. She was/is physically, verbally, and emotionally abusive. She lies easily and often. She is manipulative. She doesn’t understand how her behavior affects others. She exaggerates. She loves attention from people. She will never, ever give a true apology. 

She is so unaware…..and she would never do the work it takes to self reflect. She has the emotional maturity of a little child. 

It’s fascinating to think about all the different ways people react to childhood/intergenerational trauma and how it affects who they are as adults.  

I relate to so much of this. 

[popmom]

My husband and I love each other very much, but he is very lonely. I could live alone for the rest of my life and be okay. No one is safe for me. I'm just now waking up to the consequences of that--both for me and for those I love/who love me. 

I could write a lot more about this, but I'll spare you--unless you want me to elaborate.

A few books have recently come on my radar, so I'll share them. They are written by women. I believe they were both published before The Body Keeps the Score. I haven't read them yet, so if anyone has any input..

Trauma and Recovery

The Body Never Lies: The Lingering Effects of Hurtful Parenting

 

I'm currently reading a book by KJ Ramsey. She is a Christian--definitely CC, a licensed counselor, proponent of polyvagal theory, has severe autoimmune disease. Reading her book so far has been deeply impactful for me as a Christian. Not pleasant but very necessary for me.

[fraidycat]

16 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe I am just old but this is not that complicated. Vow to be kind and respectful to each other and apologize when you screw up.  I agree with @Murphy101…..we are all human and we just have to do the best we can.,

Apologizing is step .05 to making things work better in the future. After the apology, there needs to be a promise to not do that screw up again, then one needs to not do that screw up.

Vowing to be kind and respectful is fine and dandy until a person gets highjacked by their emotions and triggered by past traumas. Which, in turn, can cause abusive behaviours, a.k.a. screw ups.

Doing the best you can often means understanding your screw ups and what is causing them, then working hard to overcome them. Sometimes that looks like interrupting "regular life" to have the time and space to do that hard work. Sometimes that means you don't live at home with your family until you can reliably be trusted to not do more harm to them.

[TexasProud]

6 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

I hear you. You have a parent who doesn't listen to you and respect what you want, even to very personal things. So when people push things on you that you don't want, there's a kneejerk response. 

Yes, I resonate with this. Because I felt like no one listened to me...or many times I just never had the courage to share, I felt a compulsive need to be listened to and validated by this board and when they didn't... well, you know.  But yes, I get this dynamic. 

[TexasProud]

Has nothing to do with OP, but a bunny trail.

What has been really interesting to me is the various filters and trying to figure out what is/was true. I felt like I had a happy childhood and good parents until I was in my 40's or so.  I mean, I knew my parents' marriage was horrible and my dad had issues, but in many ways they were super parents and did a lot of things correctly.  Then it seemed like everything was negative in my 40's. I thought I was burying the truth or something as a teen and young adult.  But going back and reading my diaries and all of the letters back and forth between me, my dad and my mom.... I really was happy and they really were good parents in many, many ways.  Dad changed for the better as I got older.  Mom was great until  10-15 years ago. I didn't realize how much had changed until I was watching old videos, looking at pictures and reading letters. I am not sure if I did something or if her second round of fighting breast cancer ( chemo)  did something or they got involved in the second set of grandchildren and mine were older teens and young adults so not as fun to visit. But yeah, a definite change. 

Anyway, so hard to know what is REALLY true about childhood or parenting. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

I appreciate that you recognize the suggestion is natural and kind. I'd like to offer some thoughts, but be aware that I do not know or understand your personal reasons for feeling so strongly about therapy. I do trust that you have valid reasons for your feelings, but I do not know what those reasons are. I'm just offering some thoughts to try to help ease the intensity. 

Keep in mind that the nature of a public message board is random. People don't remember all the details. They don't even see all the details all the time. And there's an awful lot that gets all muddled up in the mind as being something-I-read-on-the-boards and isn't necessarily remembered as being attached to a specific person. Or may be remembered attached to the wrong person. Some people say stuff because they simply don't remember to do otherwise or missed the announcement in the first place. 

Another thing to keep in mind that some may find it difficult to share their experience without sharing the therapy that helped them. For some people, it's all entwined and it's hard to tell the story without also sharing the path through which they found help. It's not about you. 

Along with that, sometimes what a person did in therapy might be something you might like to do outside of therapy, on your own. 

I'm not in any way reprimanding. Rather, my intention is to help find a way that those posts can be less triggering for you. 

Good reminder, thanks. 

I'm interested in everyone's experiences, whether they involve therapy or not. Thanks for sharing, everyone. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 hours ago, kbutton said:

It's crazy making. It's like being gaslit in that it makes you question if your concerns and perceptions are real. It multiplies when there are big deal things going on, like needing to get a kid diagnosed with a learning issue. 

It's like having a chair that looks solid and steady and cozy, but when you sit it in, it slumps to the floor in a way that you just roll off. But when you look at it even right after rolling off, the chair is just a chair. When others look at it, it's just a chair. But it's the only place you have to sit, and it just refuses to let you sit on it. People say things like, "how can you not sit on a chair" or "how can it refuse to let you sit on it?" "You must not have good enough boundaries." If you try to force things or shore up the chair, then it keeps developing new ways to not be a chair. 

ETA: Or it develops ways to be a table instead and says it's being a chair. Like thousands of ways to avoid being a chair but being "something" vaguely meant to be helpful but still isn't a chair, and you need a chair.

Yeah. We had a lot of the same experiences. Lots and lots and lots of pretending. And a lot of the time, he was pretending to himself as well as to me. 

And I really didn't know, because he never told me any of the internal stuff until last year, and because he maintained this same image with everyone, not just me. He was convincing at it. And he's a truthful person except about this kind of emotional stuff, so I just... didn't know. I feel both proud of figuring it out, finally, and like a bit of a loser for never having known before. 

There was constantly "you try to sit down and you roll off" experience. And I could never understand why. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[BronzeTurtle]

4 hours ago, fraidycat said:

Apologizing is step .05 to making things work better in the future. After the apology, there needs to be a promise to not do that screw up again, then one needs to not do that screw up.

Vowing to be kind and respectful is fine and dandy until a person gets highjacked by their emotions and triggered by past traumas. Which, in turn, can cause abusive behaviours, a.k.a. screw ups.

Doing the best you can often means understanding your screw ups and what is causing them, then working hard to overcome them. Sometimes that looks like interrupting "regular life" to have the time and space to do that hard work. Sometimes that means you don't live at home with your family until you can reliably be trusted to not do more harm to them.

ETA: somehow my eyes missed the entire middle paragraph and I misunderstood what was meant by screw ups. nevermind.

Edited February 3, 2023 by BronzeTurtle

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And he's a truthful person except about this kind of emotional stuff, so I just... didn't know. I feel both proud of figuring it out, finally, and like a bit of a loser for never having known before. 

It is hard stuff to figure out and to see.