My grieving brother (death, hell, CC)

[BMW]

My brother lost his middle daughter this year. He hasn't seen much of them over the years (3 girls). When his wife left him for his friend, he was a mess and not always the best dad, but he had to get himself together first... I remember talking to him when he did get it together and he'd talk about how he'd messed up and not taught his daughters about God and Jesus' and salvation, but partied (he'd been brought up Christian). He'd call those girls and share his joy and how important it was to turn to God.

 

Well, his girls have not necessarily responded to the news of salvation over the years. In March his middle daughter was killed in a car crash. She was 18. We were together for the services. He was so broken up over it.

 

He is not in a good place, but he is talking to our mom and trying to get a little help. The problem for him is this... If he believes that the Bible is truth, that God created us and that salvation through Jesus gives us eternal life with God and that there is an alternative place (hell) for those who reject the salvation of Christ... then, it's too late for his daughter. He can't handle going there. It hurts him so bad. A recent thought of his is to just tune out those beliefs and join his daughter (though he told my mom he wouldn't take his own life). My mom wants him to see that while it is too late to reach his one daughter, he has two other daughters who are still here. He lives across the country from them, but he can be in contact with them as much as he'd like... they are about 17 yrs. and about 21 yrs. old.

 

So, what do you Christians think? I am NOT open to comments that God doesn't exist anyway, so why should your brother worry about hell... We are a family that does believe God exists, is the creator and that the Bible is true.

 

Thanks, friends,

 

Bee

[Soph the vet]

I think helping your brother remember that God is sovereign might be helpful. The car "accident" was no accident to God and your niece's days were numbered from the beginning. To have the sovereignty of God solidified in our minds and hearts before any tragedy ever affects us is the ideal of course. Also, no one truly knows the state of another's heart before God and who knows what may have transpired in that young girl's life before she died. I lost my dad to a car accident 14 years ago and I really doubt he was saved but I won't know until I die. Dwelling on where he is spending eternity is not helpful at all to me. Dwelling on God and His complete control over every tragedy and triumph in my life is very helpful and comforting.

[bumbledeb]

I believe that God exists, that the Bible is true, and also that the Bible doesn't teach literal hellfire. I believe the words translated 'hell' mean grave or death or eternal oblivion, not a place of eternal torture. I don't believe the loving, merciful God described in the Bible would treat his creation in that way. The wages sin pays is death, no more, no less.

[Cedarmom]

I agree with your mom that he needs to be there to encourage his other daughters. However, it sounds like he is dealing with some serious depression, and needs to help himself. Is there a Christian counselor he can go to that would help him deal with these issues? If he is thinking of joining his daughter, he is at least considering suicide. I would take that very seriously, and urge him to seek help.

[BMW]

He just began meeting once a week with a Christian man... just this last week. He says they will meet again. This man is seeking answers to these "eternal" questions and I hope that it goes well. I'd like to put together some responses in little notes that I can send to him. Can you pray for him? He is Dan.

[emeraldjoy]

I, as you, believe that G-d exists as well as the bible as well as the saving power of Jesus.

 

The idea of hell is something that I too have struggled with. I have always pondered how hell fits into the idea of grace......and frankly I don't see how it does (these are just thoughts for you to ponder, if you want to).

 

I always think of mother theresa in situations such as these. She only ministered to those dying. I believe there was a reason for this and I also believe that G-d's time and our time don't necessarily jive and that when one stops breathing on earth it does not mean they instantly get taken to hell or heaven....I think there is a lot we don't know and truly never will until we meet the Creator.

 

After losing some very special people over the past ten years and after heartbreak, confusion, prayer and soul searching I have concluded that I am NOT the judge (thank goodness) and therefore have no way of knowing the results. I just don't, it is not within my power and ability and I am fine with that...I do not want to be the judge. We have no idea anothers struggles and where they are at with their faith, etc. and what the Creator is requiring of them for "salvation"...not sure if that makes sense.

 

My husband and I did a bible study on "hell" and let me tell you it was the most fascinating thing that I have ever done (one of the the anyway).

I would challenge you to do a bit of research into this. I think you may be surprised at what the original languages say about hell or what we call hell anyway. For example it is never mentioned in the old testament....ever. And the interpretations in the new testament were very interesting, to say the least.

 

The reason we don't "sin", in my opinion are not to not go to hell...if that is the only reason then it is meaningless. The reason we don't "sin" is so that we can walk in the full blessings that our Creator has to offer us. He does not want us to lose out on anything he has to offer. He does not want us to hurt. Again just food for thought here.....I don't think Jesus wants us beleiving in him and trusting him because of this concept of hell....I think he wants us to want to know and love him because we WANT to.

 

Sorry, a little rambly.

emerald

[missplacedalaskan]

If your brother did share Christ with his girls then he knows that they all heard the message of Christ & salvation. It was/is their choice to accept Him. It sounds like your brother is feeling guilty and depressed. He made some bad decisions that affect his family, but he has also tried to reconcile with his girls. It sounds like he has accepted responsibility for what happened.

 

I think meeting with a counselor and accountability partner will be a good thing for him. He sounds depressed and may need to be evaluated by a Dr.

 

Grief is so difficult. There is no "set pattern" for everyone. I'll be praying.

[elegantlion]

When I was a child we lost an uncle due to a car accident. He was more like our grandfather and he was not a christian. It about tore my mom up to think that this kind, loving man was spending eternity in h*ll.

 

We came to the conclusion that even if you believe that the only way to heaven is to proclaim Jesus as your savior that WE do not know what the last moments of that persons life might have been like. We could not see their heart in their last days. I believe in a God of grace and mercy. I also believe there are facets to the character of God that we will never know while on this earth.

 

My dh and I are big race fans. We absolutely love the Petty family. My dh is a Richard Petty fan, I'm a Kyle Petty fan, I always thought my ds would grow up as an Adam Petty fan. Adam was killed in a racing accident and it devestated me. Partly because my dh's dad was killed in a similar way when dh was little. I was grieving thinking of this family losing their son in such a tragedy. Yet everytime I would hear an interview with Kyle Petty after that his words of faith encouraged me. He said "In times of tragedy you either turn towards God or you turn away from God." Those words really struck me. I saw how my MIL had turned from God at the death of her husband. I have also seen the wonderful things the Petty family has done to honor the memory of their son. In their grief they turned to help others, which in turn helped them.

 

Perhaps your brother can find some outlet to honor the memory of his daughter.

 

(HUGS) and prayers for you brother. Please feel free to share this with him.

[Jean too]

I agree with this.

I'll pray for Dan and his girls.

[Cedarmom]

I will pray for Dan and his family. I pray that he know how much God does truly love him, and that he will know of God's grace and forgiveness to us. Pray that his faith will be encouraged and strengthend. I pray that he and his daughter's will feel God's mercy and loving kindness.

[beansprouts]

My understanding is that God does not condemn people, we stand condemned already. We made the choice to go our own way back in Eden. God has gone to extraordinary lengths so that we can be reconciled to Him, but he is not going to force himself on us, we have to choose to accept his gift of salvation.

 

I agree with Soph that nobody but God knows what was in that young woman's heart at the time of her accident. A few years ago my dear friend died suddenly. His wife was a Christian, and he was a seeker. She prayed for some assurance that he had accepted Christ, and she has given testimony to the experience she had one night when she just "knew" and was filled with peace. Please encourage your brother that there *is* hope, and to pray and seek the answers. :grouphug:

[Another Lynn]

I think helping your brother remember that God is sovereign might be helpful. The car "accident" was no accident to God and your niece's days were numbered from the beginning. To have the sovereignty of God solidified in our minds and hearts before any tragedy ever affects us is the ideal of course. Also, no one truly knows the state of another's heart before God and who knows what may have transpired in that young girl's life before she died. I lost my dad to a car accident 14 years ago and I really doubt he was saved but I won't know until I die. Dwelling on where he is spending eternity is not helpful at all to me. Dwelling on God and His complete control over every tragedy and triumph in my life is very helpful and comforting.

 

:iagree:

 

Although we hope to see fruits of belief in a person's life - each heart is ultimately judged by God and we have to trust in Him. We trust Him even when we have unanswered questions and even in the face of things that seem terrible to us. I'm a bit hypocritical writing this as I struggle with trusting His best in much less difficult circumstances (really, just petty frustrations). I hope he can find peace!

[K&Rs Mom]

We could not see their heart in their last days.

 

:iagree: Even if she appeared to reject Christ when her dad was around, He may have been in her heart anyway (what teenager wants to admit to a parent that they were right?). Dad can continue to pray for this daughter as well as the others, and won't know the true ending until he dies.

[coffeefreak]

We've lost several friends over the years. One we know was saved, the others we don't know for sure. However, I find comfort and strength in the fact that God knew their hearts, and God is sovereign. Many will disagree with me, but he does not give a specific formula for salvation. What I mean by this is, he doesn't have a step by step, specific plan, "pray this, do that, now you're saved!" My husband accepted Christ on his own at a funeral, another friend was in a parking lot at work, and one of my closest friends accepted Him while she was dying in her hospital bed. The Lord accepts them all, with or without public declaration, with or without baptism.

 

Like others have said, we don't know what your DN prayed in her last moments, we don't know if perhaps she was a believer and had turned away. Since she didn't have a close relationship with her Dad, she may not have told him. He should seek counseling and pray for peace in this situation. I am so sorry for him. I can plan and discuss what the girls and I would do if something happened to my DH, but I never dare to think about what we would do if something happened to one of them.

 

God Bless you,

Dorinda:grouphug:

[beansprouts]

We've lost several friends over the years. One we know was saved, the others we don't know for sure. However, I find comfort and strength in the fact that God knew their hearts, and God is sovereign. Many will disagree with me, but he does not give a specific formula for salvation. What I mean by this is, he doesn't have a step by step, specific plan, "pray this, do that, now you're saved!" My husband accepted Christ on his own at a funeral, another friend was in a parking lot at work, and one of my closest friends accepted Him while she was dying in her hospital bed. The Lord accepts them all, with or without public declaration, with or without baptism.

 

Like others have said, we don't know what your DN prayed in her last moments, we don't know if perhaps she was a believer and had turned away. Since she didn't have a close relationship with her Dad, she may not have told him. He should seek counseling and pray for peace in this situation. I am so sorry for him. I can plan and discuss what the girls and I would do if something happened to my DH, but I never dare to think about what we would do if something happened to one of them.

 

God Bless you,

Dorinda:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

 

An excellent example from scripture is the thief who was on the cross next to Jesus.

[Retired]

I am heart broken for your brother. The grief and depression must be so great and the holiday season always intensifies these feelings.

 

I would like to give encouragement in regards to his daughter. He shared the salvation plan and witness to his daughters. He admitted his mistakes. The Lord does accepted our repentance when we call out our name. It is possible this young girl called out to God in her last minutes on this earth and she is now with the Lord. There is know formula to salvation. The heart opens to God. This can be anytime or anywhere..

 

I hope your brother will accept that he want know this side of heaven. He did all he could do in telling his daughters about his change heart and what Jesus did for us.

 

He really needs to get Christian grief counseling. I pray that he allows the Lord to heal his grief and he becomes a strong Christian influence for his other daughters.

[Tree House Academy]

I didn't even read the other posts. This is how *I* feel:

 

The girl was still a child. Yes, she knew right from wrong, but the real question for me would be, had God called her to come to Him and had she shut the door? Had her mother never taught her about God and other than her father, had she ever known anything about God? If not, I think that God sees her as a child. I feel like God loves us and will never close the door on those who do not believe. He will keep trying, because He wants us all to live in Heaven with Him for eternity. I, with all my heart, do not believe that your niece is in hell - I believe that she and God have business to attend, but she is a child and our God is a loving and caring God.

 

My heart hurts for your dear brother. :(

[Hapax Legomena]

If he believes that the Bible is truth, that God created us and that salvation through Jesus gives us eternal life with God and that there is an alternative place (hell) for those who reject the salvation of Christ... then, it's too late for his daughter.

You are correct. The Bible teaches that we must receive the Lord in order to have eternal life. Therefore, it is too late his daughter to make that decision.

However, he doesn’t know for sure what decision his daughter made. She may have put her trust in the Lord and never told him. It is possible she is in heaven right now.

He can't handle going there. It hurts him so bad.

The reality is that his only hope to see his daughter is to receive Jesus as Savior. Otherwise, he himself will not make it to heaven.

his girls have not necessarily responded to the news of salvation over the years

It sounds as if he knows that the girls have heard the gospel message. The Bible teaches us that the Word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword and is able to accomplish its work in our lives. It is very possible that this girl may have trusted the Lord.

A recent thought of his is to just tune out those beliefs and join his daughter (though he told my mom he wouldn't take his own life).

This idea may sound interesting from a human perspective. However, he does know his daughter is there. She may be in heaven waiting for him. Second, there is no indication people who go to hell are going to enjoy a relationship with family members anyway. All statements about hell would

Third, tuning out the truth does not make it any less true. Gravity doesn’t care if I tune it out; if I jump off the roof I will hit suffer the consequences regardless of what I think about it.

My mom wants him to see that while it is too late to reach his one daughter, he has two other daughters who are still here.

Your mom’s advice is very wise.

He lives across the country from them, but he can be in contact with them as much as he'd like... they are about 17 yrs. and about 21 yrs. old.

 

Living so close to the daughters is a great opportunity.

So, what do you Christians think?

He should reflect on the character of God. He is loving, just and all-powerful. He cares for the family more than we can imagine. Second, He always does what is right. Finally, He is absolutely able to accomplish whatever is just and loving.

The answer to these situations is to put our trust in this One who is all-loving, just in all His ways and absolutely able to carry out His loving plan.

Right now your brother sees only part of the plan, and what he sees is so very painful. One day he will see the rest of the plan. If He puts his trust in the Lord he will one day learn the magnificence and greatness of what God has done in and through these painful situation.

“Casting all your cares on Him, for He cares for you” (1 Peter 5:7)

[Cindyg]

In March his middle daughter was killed in a car crash. ... then, it's too late for his daughter. So, what do you Christians think?

 

 

Aww, that's so sad. So very sad.

 

If I were in his shoes, here is how I would comfort myself. First of all, we don't know exactly what mysterious transformation happens between God and a human at the moment of salvation. You must remember that God knows all possibilities and is not limited by human time. In other words, the fact that her life was "cut short" may not not alter the fact that she was or wasn't a child of God's.

 

Once an older woman was sharing some of her life insights with me, and this included a childhood of religious confusion away from Christ. She is now a Christian. I, trying to understand when she became a Christian, asked her, "OK, if you had died at that point, would you have gone to Heaven?" She hesitated, and answered, "I can't say. Because God knew who I would become." I can't say that's exactly in the Bible, but I thought it held a lot of insight about the sovereignty of God.

 

Secondly, he doesn't know that she didn't come to Christ. She may have come to Christ privately. She may have come to Christ in the instant before her heart stopped.

 

I read a book once -- it was a religious fictional book, and a triology -- but it was an awesome, awesome story. Anyway, the main character went through three entire books without coming to God. In the last chapter of the last book, the main character is beheaded! Without coming to God! I could have died!

 

But then the author describes the character's dying thoughts, even after the head is severed (!) but before sensibility is lost. And the character calls on God, and is ushered into Heaven. End of book. Be still my beating heart! (It was a great book.)

 

Your brother told his daughter of God. She could have done the same thing.

 

Third, I would cling to the sovereignty of God. In all events, what God does what is just and right. His will is not thwarted by time, sin, accidents, divorce, or the will of man. Ultimately, God will do the right thing in regards to that girl and your brother. But we might not understand (or even know about it) it until eternity. Nonetheless, it is so.

 

In the same fictional book I mentioned above, some of the main character's loved ones did go to Hell. From the wisdom of heaven, he discusses this loss with other saints. Their conclusion is that __ would never have been happy in Heaven. __ would never have been content to worship, be with, or submit to God. Of course, I'm quoting a fictional story here, but it's an interesting perspective.

 

Assuming Heaven and Hell are as Christians understand them to be, all of us will have loved ones who don't join us in Heaven. None of us will know for sure until it's our turn. None of us have a bit of control over this. This is why it's called faith. Not only faith that God will get us into Heaven, but faith that he will make everything as it should be. Faith that we can trust him with our emotions and with our lack of full knowledge.

 

"For now we look through a glass darkly, but then (in Heaven) face to face."

 

Fourth, this is not his fault. No one is responsible for another's eternal security. Ultimately that is between each person and God. I know he didn't do all he should have as a father, but he didn't cause her death, and he didn't cause her to choose or not choose God. Plenty of children from solid Christian homes don't choose God, and plenty of kids from nonChristian homes, DO choose God. This is not his fault.

 

Anyway, I am really sorry for your brother. It's a terrible time for him. Not a time to be making life decisions.

 

Let us know in a couple of months how he's doing.

[keptwoman]

I can't comment from a Christian perspective. But I would like to say that guilt is a grief stage. It's normal to feel guilty about something related to the person who has died. What that guilt is about varies from person to person but it's always there.

 

Sometimes we are so immersed in the grief that we forget these things that we are feeling are normal and understandable and expected. Of course it's important that your brother is able to work out his guilt. But the fact that he is feeling it to me is normal.

[Jean in Wisc]

My brother lost his middle daughter this year. He hasn't seen much of them over the years (3 girls). When his wife left him for his friend, he was a mess and not always the best dad, but he had to get himself together first... I remember talking to him when he did get it together and he'd talk about how he'd messed up and not taught his daughters about God and Jesus' and salvation, but partied (he'd been brought up Christian). He'd call those girls and share his joy and how important it was to turn to God.

 

Well, his girls have not necessarily responded to the news of salvation over the years. In March his middle daughter was killed in a car crash. She was 18. We were together for the services. He was so broken up over it.

 

He is not in a good place, but he is talking to our mom and trying to get a little help. The problem for him is this... If he believes that the Bible is truth, that God created us and that salvation through Jesus gives us eternal life with God and that there is an alternative place (hell) for those who reject the salvation of Christ... then, it's too late for his daughter. He can't handle going there. It hurts him so bad. A recent thought of his is to just tune out those beliefs and join his daughter (though he told my mom he wouldn't take his own life). My mom wants him to see that while it is too late to reach his one daughter, he has two other daughters who are still here. He lives across the country from them, but he can be in contact with them as much as he'd like... they are about 17 yrs. and about 21 yrs. old.

 

So, what do you Christians think? I am NOT open to comments that God doesn't exist anyway, so why should your brother worry about hell... We are a family that does believe God exists, is the creator and that the Bible is true.

 

Thanks, friends,

 

Bee

 

Tell me more...had the child ever confessed a faith? Shown interest in it? Been baptized?

 

One cannot know what is in the heart of a child. From a Lutheran perspective, faith grows unconsciously and as the child grows into maturity, his understanding of right and wrong eventually matures into a deeper understanding--at some point the person will need to make a decision of rejecting this growing faith or confessing his sin, acknowledging that he needs God's grace--regeneration.

 

There can be a long time from the time a child or adult first begins this journey. I do not believe that your brother can assume that the child did not listen to his words. I believe that he might well have been the person to bring this child to an unconscious understanding of who God is. She may not have come to the time when the road branched and she had made a conscious decision to reject the Gospel. Many children do not come to this decision until they are entering into adulthood. The faith that was planted by his words and actions may well have been growing inside her...and may be the very means by which she has come to salvation.

 

My family just finished reading Infant Baptism and Adult Conversion by O. Hallesby. I ordered it through Amazon because it is out of print (I found this one online, but I have never ordered through Cloyds). The book explains what I've been saying very well. If you think this would help your brother, you could look into finding a copy for him.

 

HTH,

Jean

[lionfamily1999]

Okay, so this may sound rediculous, but bear with me. My dad's dad committed suicide when he was about five. My dad has had a long time to develop his feelings that God is indeed real, Christ sure is his son, and they're both cruel beings sitting far, far away with no cares.

 

Then, my sister's pastor had a talk with my dad. He asked if my dad's dad's suicide was an attempt to save his family from his alcoholism, of course, my dad does not know, but assumes it was. The pastor then pointed out that Christ knew he was going to die, knew he was going to be crucified and went anyway. He went because it was better to die so we could live. Incredibly, my dad stopped hating God. He's still not on really friendly terms, but he is not as viscous in his opinions.

 

This same pastor comforted me when a friend was killed in a car accident. He pointed out that we all face judgement at our death. He then asked, who, in the presence of God, could deny him? It was really an incredible idea, to me anyway. That we face God and that belief could not be denied at that point. It gave me hope for my friend, the grandfather that I never knew, and many friends I have lost as the years have passed.

 

God is not intent upon our destruction. He WANTS us to succeed, to be with Him. He wants us to live forever, He loves us. God is just. God is love. God does not judge rashly or harshly.

 

:grouphug:

[OnTheBrink]

I'm so sorry for your brother's loss. And, I agree with Soph and Beans. We don't know what's in a person's heart. We can believe someone is saved and be deceived and we can be so sure someone isn't saved, and find that they are. Only God knows a person's true heart. God is sovereign and good. :grouphug:

[BMW]

I sent a note to my brother with a couple responses from this board when I posted about his losing his daughter and his fears of her being in hell...

 

He is not open to hearing anything about God or heaven. He wouldn't let his wife decorate for Christmas. He is seeing a counselor once a week.

 

I was wondering if you have any ideas of what to share with him, avoiding those topics... I want to send funny cards, post cards, notes that I love him... he'll read short comments, but that is it.

[Jackie in AR]

I sent a note to my brother with a couple responses from this board when I posted about his losing his daughter and his fears of her being in hell...

 

He is not open to hearing anything about God or heaven. He wouldn't let his wife decorate for Christmas. He is seeing a counselor once a week.

 

I was wondering if you have any ideas of what to share with him, avoiding those topics... I want to send funny cards, post cards, notes that I love him... he'll read short comments, but that is it.

 

Is sounds as though he is deep in depression. I'm not sure there is anything you can say or send to him right now that will really make him feel any better. Has he seen a medical doctor?

 

ETA: I meant to add that I will be praying for him.

[elegantlion]

What does he do for work? Does he have any hobbies? I would lean towards things in that direction.

 

Maybe something with something forward thinking, instead of reflecting on the circumstances he can not change.

 

:grouphug: and prayers here too. I hope he is able to find some peace in the midst of his valley.

[BMW]

He has been on depression meds in the past. Right now I am glad that he is counseling with someone. He has not seen a Dr. yet, but I will mention that to my mom, who sees him regularly.

 

Thanks for the prayers for Dan.

[Jackie in AR]

He has been on depression meds in the past. Right now I am glad that he is counseling with someone. He has not seen a Dr. yet, but I will mention that to my mom, who sees him regularly.

 

Thanks for the prayers for Dan.

 

I suffered through a period of depression a couple of years ago, so I know a little of what he is going through. I took medication for a few months, and I am so glad I did!

 

I would try to get him to a Dr. ASAP.

 

You are a good sister to be so concerned about your brother. I will continue to pray for Dan.

[OnTheBrink]

I'm sorry he's hurting so much. This is the worst time of year for depression and to lose a child at this time is almost unbearable.

 

I'd just continue to send him funny cards (I like the Far Side cards, pretty funny!) and light notes letting him know you're there and haven't forgotten him.

 

Praying for him and his wife. She has to be hurting, too.

[beansprouts]

Pray for him, and just let Christ love him through you.

 

:grouphug:

[ihvnangel]

I haven't been to the boards here very regularly in a while but this subject caught my eye. I lost my little girl to drowning 7 years ago. It was the hardest thing I had ever had to deal with. I was in shock, full of anger at mil who was the one supposed to be watching my little girl, and angry at my husband. However I did try to turn to God and not away. I had lost a fiance' 10 years prior to my dd's death and at that time I had turned away from God and was so mad, it was in fact my little girl that brought me back to God. I know I am rambling, but all that to just say do keep praying, and send cards, or letters, memories of his daughter if you have any, pictures. It may not help right now but I believe he will be okay eventually, just let him know you are there for him if he wants to talk. Compassionate friends is a good group, and there are many groups online if he is open to that. It was hard for me to deal with why God wouldn't save my little girl, why did she have to die, all the why's will drive you insane, and you know for a while I did have to be on medication because I just couldn't deal. I had two other little boys that were missing their big sister and I had to make it. Maybe if you call his other daughters and just talk to them and have them call their dad if they are open to it, my little boys were really the only thing that got me up some mornings. I will be praying for him and the rest of the family..

~Chandra

http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/m/myangelsarah

mom to Angel Sarah forever 5,

Noah, Jonah, Hannah, and Luke

Daddy in Afghanistan so keep him in your prayers~!

[love2read]

Only God knows exactly where the girl was at spiritually when she died. He may think he knows, but he doesn't. He needs to hold on to hope and set a good Christian example for his other daughters. I'll be praying for him, your mom and for you as you help him along.