Question about asynchronous college class, grading, teacher response

[cintinative]

My oldest is taking his first dual enrollment class. It is a composition class that is asynchronous and is taken through our local university.  He is on week three.  

I have a couple questions just because we are newbies and I need to understand what expectations are reasonable.

Nothing has been graded yet. I am hearing this is not atypical and that some profs don't grade until near the end of the semester. But surely not in a comp class? 

Also, the assignments are not very clear.  My son asked a question about one yesterday in the "questions" section on Canvas that the teacher has set up for questions.  What is a typical turnaround time for questions about assignments? What should we do if we don't hear anything? Do we go to his counselor?

It is truly hard to say if the teacher has been on the Canvas boards and read posts or not.  It's just strange, honestly.  But maybe this is more normal than we know?

[Kassia]

Unfortunately, this is common.  Professors vary so much in their involvement in classes.  Have you looked this instructor up on Rate My Professor?  I'm wondering if many students have mentioned this before (lack of feedback, grading, communication).  My daughter has one professor who teaches classes as a side job and even slipped and talked about her *real* job one day and then backtracked.  The class is just a way to earn extra money with almost no effort at all.  It's really unfortunate that this happens so often.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Kassia

[cintinative]

4 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Have you looked this instructor up on Rate My Professor?  

 

I did, but she only had two ratings which were good.  There was no mention of slow grading or anything.  Unfortunately we didn't have a lot of choices once I ruled out the ones with no ratings or largely bad reviews.  Since we are doing dual enrollment, we register last, so the class with the prof I really wanted for him was full.

 

[cintinative]

My son just figured out the assignments are actually in two places.  In one place are the assignments that have to be turned in, and the other is assignments to be completed and not turned in. This is not mentioned on the syllabus, but oh well.  Also the prof's name is not on the syllabus, which I find amusing.  

I am grateful we only decided to do one dual enrollment class this semester. This has been an education in itself.

[BusyMom5]

Oldest did Writing 1 at our CC and had a great professor!  She liked her so much that she took a second writing class with her.  Grading was always prompt,  within 2 weeks.  She gave good feedback and I thought she really helped my writing reluctant kiddo.  This was pre-Covid.  DD2 took the same class at the same college last Spring, online, with a different professor.  Not a thing was graded before the mid-semester mark.  I contacted the advisor we use to see what was going on.  Apparently lots of people complained (we knew others in the course, so I was checking with them as well).  When things were graded, the feedback was "Good"- no critique or longer comments.  She got a 100% on every assignment.   The few times she asked a question,  she got a vague response back.  Page numbers on the syllabus were off on almost every assignment- often not even the chapter.  It was a terrible class and my next kids will not be using that professor. 

[cintinative]

Just now, BusyMom5 said:

  I contacted the advisor we use to see what was going on.  

When did you do this? Thank you.  

[HomeAgain]

Week 3?  That's a bit long.

I had an unresponsive teacher who went MIA for a bit and constantly flaked.  BCC'ing someone who could light a fire under her (advisor, department chair) in an email where I explained the problem succinctly along with contact dates helped get a reply and a more attentive professor for the last 3 weeks of class.

If your son hasn't emailed his professor directly, there is a good place to start.  Especially with time sensitive questions or ones that are more directed to his own work and not that of the whole class.

As a "we", I don't think you should do anything except walk your son through the process. You should not email his advisor.  They have no duty to respond to you.  You shouldn't go with him to the counselor.  That is his job.

 

[BusyMom5]

18 minutes ago, cintinative said:

When did you do this? Thank you.  

It was after week 10 of a 16 week class.  Not one single item was graded.  Our CC has a specific DE coordinator that is the advisor for DE students,  so thats who I contacted.  This class was all DE high schoolers from local public schools,  with a handful of homeschoolers.  I also contacted the HS teacher in my district, since I kinda know her, and the parent of another homeschooler I knew was in the class.  Nothing had been graded, from anyone.  

[Kassia]

59 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I did, but she only had two ratings which were good.  There was no mention of slow grading or anything.  Unfortunately we didn't have a lot of choices once I ruled out the ones with no ratings or largely bad reviews.  Since we are doing dual enrollment, we register last, so the class with the prof I really wanted for him was full.

 

Another (unlikely) possibility is that something happened to the professor.  This actually happened to dd twice when she took online dual enrollment classes.  One was in a cycling accident and the other had some kind of health condition and was hospitalized.  Those professors totally disappeared for a while.  What confused me is why the university/college didn't take over at that point and inform students and/or assign a temporary instructor.  Students were not informed at all that there was a problem for weeks!  

[cintinative]

38 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

 

If your son hasn't emailed his professor directly, there is a good place to start.  Especially with time sensitive questions or ones that are more directed to his own work and not that of the whole class.

So far all he has done is ask a question about an assignment in the "questions?" portion of the discussion forum which was set aside to ask the prof questions.  It's only been a day since he asked.  Then he figured out the answer himself and noted it. 

 I don't know that we know how to contact her other than via email through Canvas. Her contact info isn't on the syllabus. Her name isn't even on the syllabus.  

Edited September 7, 2022 by cintinative

[BusyMom5]

31 minutes ago, cintinative said:

So far all he has done is ask a question about an assignment in the "questions?" portion of the discussion forum which was set aside to ask the prof questions.  It's only been a day since he asked.  Then he figured out the answer himself and noted it. 

 I don't know that we know how to contact her other than via email through Canvas. Her contact info isn't on the syllabus. Her name isn't even on the syllabus.  

My DD had already e-mailed more than once before I contacted the advisor.  E-mails were always extremely vague, not answering specific questions.   

[Bootsie]

As far as the professor's name not being on the syllabus, it sounds as if there may be a common, departmental syllabus that is being used and that it is not an individualized syllabus.  

Is the space set up in Canvas for questions a place to ask questions to the professor, or is it intended to be a place where students can ask questions and other students answer?  I have seen those sections used both ways.  I try to respond to student questions within 24 hours during the week, but depending upon my teaching schedule and the type of question that is being asked, it is sometimes longer before I can get back to a student.

I would not be concerned that it is the third week of class and nothing has been graded.  When was the first assignment due?  (I would expect at least a week after the due date before writing is graded.)  Was it an assignment that was meant to be graded?  Sometimes in a composition class there are developmental exercises or assignments that lead to a larger assignment that is graded.  What does the syllabus say about what will be graded?  

[cintinative]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

As far as the professor's name not being on the syllabus, it sounds as if there may be a common, departmental syllabus that is being used and that it is not an individualized syllabus.  

Is the space set up in Canvas for questions a place to ask questions to the professor, or is it intended to be a place where students can ask questions and other students answer?  I have seen those sections used both ways.  I try to respond to student questions within 24 hours during the week, but depending upon my teaching schedule and the type of question that is being asked, it is sometimes longer before I can get back to a student.

I would not be concerned that it is the third week of class and nothing has been graded.  When was the first assignment due?  (I would expect at least a week after the due date before writing is graded.)  Was it an assignment that was meant to be graded?  Sometimes in a composition class there are developmental exercises or assignments that lead to a larger assignment that is graded.  What does the syllabus say about what will be graded?  

From the syllabus:  "Your overall grade will be based on your participation in the discussions (30%),  your performance on the assigned textbook activities (30%), and your work on the written assignments (40%)." 

So far he has had all three.  The assignments have points associated with them, so I assume there is at least a completion grade.  There were textbook activities turned in the first week and second week, and an essay turned in for this past Monday. None have been graded. 

I just looked at the questions portion of the discussion forum and it doesn't really say if she will check it or not, now that you mention it. 

So, when would you be concerned in a comp class if there were no grades? I feel like I am not sure when he should ask the prof about her grading timeline.

 

 

[Bootsie]

Was the essay turned in two days ago?  Or, nine days ago?  

Does your student know where to look to see if an assignment has been graded?  (In some systems this is more straightforward than others.)  I also know that I have had times as a professor that I graded assignments but things were not showing up to the students as graded because a setting had been accidentally changed in the Learning Management System.  

At the beginning of the semester, I would probably wait until 2 weeks after the date an assignment was due, and then send an email asking if the assignment was received properly because it had not been graded yet.

I did teach at a large state school with several sections of 300 students per semester.  I would have some TA help, but the TAs generally were not assigned until a week or two into the semester and their contracts began Sept 1 (this was due to legislative funding and could not be changed at the university level).  Some of the routine things like setting up the grade book and entering grades that they did could not begin before that.  There are a number of reasons, depending on the specific school, why grades may not be posted quickly at the beginning of a semester. 

 

[cintinative]

10 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Was the essay turned in two days ago?  Or, nine days ago?  

Does your student know where to look to see if an assignment has been graded? 

 

The essay was uploaded in this past Sunday. The other assignments (some submitted two weeks ago) were posted in Canvas as directed. I don't expect the essay to have been graded by now, but it is odd that there is no other obvious activity of the prof on the Canvas page. 

We are looking for the grades the same place we normally look in Canvas when we have had classes there before from other providers. I assume it is right?

[EKS]

What should happen is that questions should be answered within 24 hours M-F and that assignments should be graded within one week of the due date. 

Unfortunately, it is very common for instructors to never answer questions or only answer them after multiple attempts and for work to be graded in the last week of class.

[cintinative]

Just now, EKS said:

What should happen is that questions should be answered within 24 hours M-F and that assignments should be graded within one week of the due date. 

Unfortunately, it is very common for instructors to never answer questions or only answer them after multiple attempts and for work to be graded in the last week of class.

Do you think this is more common with asynchronous classes? I am rethinking doing more of those in the spring. He wants to take some IT courses and it could go so very wrong without any input from the instructor.

[EKS]

32 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Do you think this is more common with asynchronous classes?

I don't know.  My experience is with synchronous online classes.

[Bootsie]

I think some depends on the asynchronous nature of the class.  Is it simply that there is not a meeting time, but that assignments are due by 5:00pm on Friday for everyone?  Or, is it a case that all assignments are due by the end of the semester?  If the assignments are dribbling in, it is difficult for a professor to keep up with grading because some students have turned things in and other have not.

[cintinative]

Just now, Bootsie said:

I think some depends on the asynchronous nature of the class.  Is it simply that there is not a meeting time, but that assignments are due by 5:00pm on Friday for everyone?  

Yes, there are weekly assignments due.  

[Bootsie]

40 minutes ago, EKS said:

What should happen is that questions should be answered within 24 hours M-F and that assignments should be graded within one week of the due date. 

Unfortunately, it is very common for instructors to never answer questions or only answer them after multiple attempts and for work to be graded in the last week of class.

It is interesting that this is what our Teaching Effectiveness Center says that professors should do. 

However, if someone contacts them, they are dealing with "unusually high volume" and will get to you as soon as possible--within several days.  The same experience occurs with the computer technology support, the registrar's office, financial aid, and all of the other offices on campus.  The only people who are expected to respond within 24 hours (even if they are in class teaching, at a conference presenting their research, or any other duties a professor has most of those hours) are professors.  

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

The essay was uploaded in this past Sunday. The other assignments (some submitted two weeks ago) were posted in Canvas as directed. I don't expect the essay to have been graded by now, but it is odd that there is no other obvious activity of the prof on the Canvas page. 

We are looking for the grades the same place we normally look in Canvas when we have had classes there before from other providers. I assume it is right?

It has been a while since I have used Canvas.  My university is using a version of D2L and there are several different ways that it might appear in D2L (and it looks different than it did in the D2L version used at a university where I taught previously).  I can "publish" feedback once I have completed all of the grading, but a couple of things can go wrong--first, I can forget; but there are other things such as there are 50 students to a page--so if I have 53 students in a class it is easy to forget that I also have a second page of students that must be published (wouldn't you think that there is some way to set it to "publish all" but there isn't).  I can also set things up to show a score in the gradebook, but sometimes that column is "hidden" even though it is visible to me because there are multiple places in which settings are 

I think it would be fine for the student to send an email to the professor, explaining that this is the first time he is taking an asynchronous class and a dual enrollment class and he want to make sure that he is submitting assignments properly and looking in the correct place for any feedback because he hasn't seen any yet.  This would give the professor an opportunity to clarify when she expects to have work graded.

[EKS]

45 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

It is interesting that this is what our Teaching Effectiveness Center says that professors should do. 

However, if someone contacts them, they are dealing with "unusually high volume" and will get to you as soon as possible--within several days.  The same experience occurs with the computer technology support, the registrar's office, financial aid, and all of the other offices on campus.  The only people who are expected to respond within 24 hours (even if they are in class teaching, at a conference presenting their research, or any other duties a professor has most of those hours) are professors.  

Many times the questions are about things that are time sensitive because of due dates.

Note that I am talking about online classes here where there are no lectures (other than whatever videos have been uploaded), so the only things that the instructor has to do with regard to the class are answering questions and grading assignments (since the courses were developed previously).  Honestly, I'm happy if an instructor gets back to me within 2-3 days, it doesn't have to be 24 hours, and if they get stuff graded within 1-2 weeks.  What I don't like is when questions are never answered and things aren't graded for weeks and weeks and weeks.  I just had the worst instructor I've ever had with regard to these issues over the summer, and apparently I'm still feeling a little grumbly about it.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

We are looking for the grades the same place we normally look in Canvas when we have had classes there before from other providers. I assume it is right?

All of my grades in Canvas have been in a section called "grades."

Sometimes instructors will forget to make grades visible to the students.  

[kirstenhill]

6 hours ago, cintinative said:

So far all he has done is ask a question about an assignment in the "questions?" portion of the discussion forum which was set aside to ask the prof questions.  It's only been a day since he asked.  Then he figured out the answer himself and noted it. 

 I don't know that we know how to contact her other than via email through Canvas. Her contact info isn't on the syllabus. Her name isn't even on the syllabus.  

As far as finding another way to contact the professor, I would look and see if there is a way to find it on the university website (I know at the uni where my DD attends, there is a staff directory that can be searched to find email address and campus office address, if they have one).  I would also say it seems like a fair question to ask someone from the department - for your DS to call or email the department office and say they are a student trying to reach professor so-and-so and would like their contact information.  I think they would give out that info or explain how to get it. 

[EKS]

16 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

I would also say it seems like a fair question to ask someone from the department - for your DS to call or email the department office and say they are a student trying to reach professor so-and-so and would like their contact information.  I think they would give out that info or explain how to get it.

There is no way I'd get anyone else involved, including to ask for contact information, unless I had tried multiple times over at least a week to get in touch with the instructor.

[Clemsondana]

I always only taught 1-2 classes when I taught at a CC, and I had all work graded within a week.  I still do that with my high school classes, with the exception that when students have a month to complete several assignments, due all at once, I may take more than a week to get through them all.  That being said, both of my roommates from college have taught at colleges for the past 15-20 years, and we compare notes on our teaching situations whenever we get together.  All of us are seeing a fairly dramatic increase in helplessness from students over the past 4-5 years.  Some of it may be covid-related, but the shift pre-dates covid.  Students email questions that are answered in the syllabus or that they can find themselves, such as asking for page numbers within the listed chapter or wanting definitions for words that are listed in the index and sometimes defined in a glossary.  Students email asking about due dates because they have your email address in their phones and don't want to have to open Canvas to find the assignment with its posted due dates.  One roommated said that she finally had to tell the students that there are 600 of them (she has TAs to help with grading), and if they all send an email each week, then even at 1 minute per email that's 10 hrs just to answer email...so she's happy to help with anything that they need, but please check the syllabus, their book the canvas FAQ, etc, before writing because she can't find the real problems in the huge stack of emails

So...all this is to say that the instructor could just not be doing their job appropriately, but it's also possible that they are working hard to get some high need students situated.  My older is doing an asynch DE class right now and has been amazed at how babyish the instructions are and how many students still don't seem to be able to follow them.  Hopefully you'll get some feedback soon.  I know that it's scary to be taking a class and hoping that you are getting things right, and I also know that it can be hard to sit down to grade when you are answering email after email from students who can't figure out how to log on, how to upload assignments, etc.  

[teachermom2834]

As far as finding another way to contact the professor…my dh is a low paid adjunct for an asynchronous online class class and he will admit it is not his primary job. He answers questions every night and grades on weekends but he is not available during business hours. He has had students google him and track him down at his place of employment and call his office during the work day because he does not respond immediately. He has also had personal phone calls on his cell phone very late at night with questions like “I forgot my password”. 

So, don’t do that. There are awful and inattentive professors and there are needy and helpless students who don’t know boundaries. Those students make it hard for the ones who are doing what they are supposed to but just have questions. 
 

I don’t have any answers…just commiseration that this can be hard on both ends. I hope you get it worked out soon. It is so stressful when you are trying to do everything right in a college class and you feel like you are just alone trying to figure it out. 

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, cintinative said:

Do you think this is more common with asynchronous classes? 

The problem with asynchronous classes is that it is easy for the college to simply overload them if they are short-staffed, because technically they can squeeze unlimited people into the class and are not constrained by actual seats in a room. The instructor may have much more students than in a normal section. If that is the case, it may be impossible for the instructor to grade everything within a week. How many classes does this professor teach? If it's intro composition, it is possible this is an overworked NTT with multiple sections and no way to get through the grading.
Asynchronous is also more problematic because there is no face-to-face meeting time when a quick question could be asked; everything needs to be in writing. 

Previous posters have already answered many of your questions. The student should look up the prof's email address at the university and contact them through email and not just via Canvas. Expect at least 24 hours turnaround time during the business week. The response time should be specified in the syllabus.

The fact that the instructor's name is not on the syllabus can have multiple reasons. Sometimes there are departmental syllabi that are identical across sections and done before the staffing is finalized. 

In general, I would stay away from asynchronous classes unless it's a check-the-box credit. There is plenty of research that shows learning is significantly lower in this mode; it requires more discipline, and if all I get provided is canned material, I question what I am paying tuition for. 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by regentrude

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

As far as finding another way to contact the professor…my dh is a low paid adjunct for an asynchronous online class class and he will admit it is not his primary job. He answers questions every night and grades on weekends but he is not available during business hours. He has had students google him and track him down at his place of employment and call his office during the work day because he does not respond immediately. He has also had personal phone calls on his cell phone very late at night with questions like “I forgot my password”. 

That is beyond unprofessional by the student. No, don't EVER call a professor's private phone. Absolutely not appropriate.

ETA: I never ever give a student my private cell phone number. They have absolutely no business knowing that.

Edited September 7, 2022 by regentrude

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

That is beyond unprofessional by the student. No, don't EVER call a professor's private phone. Absolutely not appropriate.

In fairness to the student, my dh probably gives out his number because he works completely online and doesn’t have a physical school office or phone. But late at night with a tech question isn’t reasonable. He gets all kinds of general registration and tech questions and even financial aid questions that he can’t answer at all. It is like no one knows how anything works anymore and they come to him with everything. 
 

 

[regentrude]

Just now, teachermom2834 said:

In fairness to the student, my dh probably gives out his number because he works completely online and doesn’t have a physical school office or phone. But late at night with a tech question isn’t reasonable. He gets all kinds of general registration and tech questions and even financial aid questions that he can’t answer at all. It is like no one knows how anything works anymore and they come to him with everything. 

Oh I see. But no, stuff like this isn't anything to call the prof about in the first place, let alone late at night.
I can't think of any reason why a student would need to call me on the phone that couldn't be handled through electronic communications.

[Arcadia]

9 hours ago, cintinative said:

 

 I don't know that we know how to contact her other than via email through Canvas. Her contact info isn't on the syllabus. Her name isn't even on the syllabus.  

Staff directory either for the entire college or the department directory would usually list the email, office extension and room number. Adjunct professors may only have an email listed. Name not being on the syllabus isn’t unusual as some departments prefer a standardized course syllabus to be given to students.

6 hours ago, cintinative said:

Do you think this is more common with asynchronous classes? I am rethinking doing more of those in the spring. He wants to take some IT courses and it could go so very wrong without any input from the instructor.

My slacker lecturer has two TAs doing the office hours which was two to four times a week to help with the course contents and the labs. My more hardworking lecturer has office hours and lecture hours once a week though the lectures are optional to attend and recorded. I typically hand in assignments ahead of time and get a grade within a week. The hardworking one would give feedback if there is something to comment on. So check if there are office hours for IT courses even if it is listed as asynchronous. For my IT courses where the majority are working adults, the discussions tend to be high volume. For those where people are taking because it is a required prerequisite or because it is an easy A, discussions tend to be non existent. Asynchronous class do tend to have large class sizes because they don’t need to cap the number of students. 

 

Both my teens took the English classes at community college. DS16’s instructors basically grade on effort so any student who hand in all their work on time with decent effort gets an A. No feedback though. DS17’s instructors are more strict with grading but gives feedback. So Bs are kind of guaranteed as long as work is turned in but As is not. So if someone wants to maintain a 4.0 gpa for transfer, they should pick those who give As for effort. 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I can't think of any reason why a student would need to call me on the phone that couldn't be handled through electronic communications.

Literally the only thing I can think of is if the instructor were to give a special number to call or text if a student were to run into technical problems with a tightly timed exam.  

[Clemsondana]

On the phone number thing...back in the dark ages when I was an undergrad, we had an old-school professor who did old school things like lock the door at the start of class so that latecomers didn't disrupt the lecture and throw erasers at students who fell asleep in class.  But, on the first day of class he gave out his home phone number to the 200 of us.  He said that he had bailed students out of jail and if we ever needed anything, as young people who were often hours from home, to call him.  He followed up with something along the lines of 'But I don't want you to call me on a Friday night to BS about biochemistry.  I will remember and I won't be happy about it.  This is in case you NEED something.  I've given it out for years and I've been glad to help the handful of students who have ever needed to call.'  I can't imagine a professor or instructor being able to do something like that now - some students have very different ideas of needs and boundaries.  🙂  

[Bootsie]

If the course is being taught by an adjunct professor, it is likely that the professor is being paid less than $3000 to teach the class.  If you divide that amount by 16 weeks in a semester, That is 187.50 per week.  If the professor has 50 students and spends 15 minutes per week per student (5 minutes responding to an email and 10 minutes grading and providing feedback), that is 12.5 hours of work--so the professor is making $15 per hour!  That does not include any pay for the adjunct to learn to use the LMS, do required university training, and do all of the other things that are required.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

20 hours ago, cintinative said:

So far all he has done is ask a question about an assignment in the "questions?" portion of the discussion forum which was set aside to ask the prof questions.  It's only been a day since he asked.  Then he figured out the answer himself and noted it. 

 I don't know that we know how to contact her other than via email through Canvas. Her contact info isn't on the syllabus. Her name isn't even on the syllabus.  

Is there an option to message the instructor through Canvas? As opposed to making a post in the open Questions section? 

I remember there being a message section, with a pull down menu to select instructors or fellow students to send to.

That might be seen more quickly. 

[EKS]

8 hours ago, Bootsie said:

If the course is being taught by an adjunct professor, it is likely that the professor is being paid less than $3000 to teach the class. 

And that, right there, is the heart of the problem. 

I was an undergraduate TA for a calculus course last fall and was paid as much as the actual (adjunct) instructor.  Not only that, I had four hours of contact time each week with the students where I was actively teaching, and the instructor had none.  The instructor had a PhD in mathematics and something like 15 years of teaching experience, and I had literally just taken the course I was TAing for the previous semester.  

What is wrong with this picture?

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

Is there an option to message the instructor through Canvas? As opposed to making a post in the open Questions section? 

I remember there being a message section, with a pull down menu to select instructors or fellow students to send to.

That might be seen more quickly. 

This is his plan currently. If for some reason that doesn't work, we can try to find her university email address. But he will start with Canvas.

[bibiche]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:28 AM, Kassia said:

….  My daughter has one professor who teaches classes as a side job and even slipped and talked about her *real* job one day and then backtracked.  The class is just a way to earn extra money with almost no effort at all.  It's really unfortunate that this happens so often.

 

I take issue with this. First, teaching any class takes effort, often tremendous effort. 
 

I know people who have “real jobs” who teach on the side. They’re not doing it to make extra money - the pay is lousy - but because they love teaching and want to share knowledge of their field. 

 I also know adjuncts who try to cobble together a living with teaching gigs at various schools. This is a horrible existence because, see above, the pay is lousy! Adjuncts often don’t have an office, have limited contact with other professors in the department, have no say in university affairs, and are not invested in the college. They also don’t have time to do research and publish because they’re so exhausted from all the teaching and running around. Feel sorry for them, feel angry for them, but don’t dismiss them as lazy money grabbers. That really makes me mad!

Adjuncts used to use pretty rare. A school would employ one, for example, when someone was on leave for a semester and a course still needed to be taught. Now schools *use* 😠 adjuncts to save money, and to the detriment of students’ education. 
I agree that it is unfortunate that this happens so often, but until people understand why it is and make it an issue, colleges are going to continue relying on poorly paid adjuncts. 

[Kassia]

12 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I take issue with this. First, teaching any class takes effort, often tremendous effort. 
 

I know people who have “real jobs” who teach on the side. They’re not doing it to make extra money - the pay is lousy - but because they love teaching and want to share knowledge of their field. 

 I also know adjuncts who try to cobble together a living with teaching gigs at various schools. This is a horrible existence because, see above, the pay is lousy! Adjuncts often don’t have an office, have limited contact with other professors in the department, have no say in university affairs, and are not invested in the college. They also don’t have time to do research and publish because they’re so exhausted from all the teaching and running around. Feel sorry for them, feel angry for them, but don’t dismiss them as lazy money grabbers. That really makes me mad!

Adjuncts used to use pretty rare. A school would employ one, for example, when someone was on leave for a semester and a course still needed to be taught. Now schools *use* 😠 adjuncts to save money, and to the detriment of students’ education. 
I agree that it is unfortunate that this happens so often, but until people understand why it is and make it an issue, colleges are going to continue relying on poorly paid adjuncts. 

Oh, I am very aware of the issue with adjuncts lack of compensation and think it's terrible.  There are some really wonderful and caring instructors out there who deserve to be compensated so much better than they are.  But there are also some who don't do anything and it's unfair to the students.  Same with tenured professors or people in many positions other than teaching.  I know one professor who has online classes at several universities in addition to his day job and has way too many students.  If you look at his rate my professor there are consistent complaints (so many) that he is unresponsive and uninvolved in the classes.  It's people like that I was referring to.  
 

I apologize if I came across as thinking all adjuncts/part-time faculty are "lazy money grabbers" because that is not how I feel at all.  I am grateful to many of them for doing such a good job and feel very bad about the way they are treated by the institutions they work for.   

Edited September 8, 2022 by Kassia

[Kassia]

13 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I take issue with this. First, teaching any class takes effort, often tremendous effort. 

I do have a question about this.  For the instructors I was referring to before - the ones who take on classes just for income - does it really take tremendous effort to teach the class?  Some instructors teach the same class every semester online and use the same material.  So, wouldn't it be the case that they only have to change the syllabus/assignments  to the correct dates for that particular semester  (some don't even do that) and post?  Once they've done the work once to put together a semester-long course, do they have to do anything over again?  Some just use multiple choice quizzes/exams and don't have to do any grading either.  Or they have discussion boards they aren't involved in, have peer-reviewed papers, etc.  Seems to me like if someone wanted to, they could run a course with minimal effort and involvement.  

[Bootsie]

30 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I take issue with this. First, teaching any class takes effort, often tremendous effort. 
as

I know people who have “real jobs” who teach on the side. They’re not doing it to make extra money - the pay is lousy - but because they love teaching and want to share knowledge of their field. 

 I also know adjuncts who try to cobble together a living with teaching gigs at various schools. This is a horrible existence because, see above, the pay is lousy! Adjuncts often don’t have an office, have limited contact with other professors in the department, have no say in university affairs, and are not invested in the college. They also don’t have time to do research and publish because they’re so exhausted from all the teaching and running around. Feel sorry for them, feel angry for them, but don’t dismiss them as lazy money grabbers. That really makes me mad!

Adjuncts used to use pretty rare. A school would employ one, for example, when someone was on leave for a semester and a course still needed to be taught. Now schools *use* 😠 adjuncts to save money, and to the detriment of students’ education. 
I agree that it is unfortunate that this happens so often, but until people understand why it is and make it an issue, colleges are going to continue relying on poorly paid adjuncts. 

Yes, pay for adjuncts is horrible at most universities.  Pay for full-time professors can also be far lower than what many people assume.  I just looked at our local state university (which has publicly available salary information) and there are full-time assistant professors in the English department, teaching four classes per semester, doing research, and having administrative duties, who are making less than $50,000 per year, and have a PhD.  I had several colleagues who left the university several years ago, realizing that they would make more as a high school teacher, not have to do research, not have the same administrative load, didn't have to pay for parking, had fewer preps, had fewer students, and had leave days for which substitutes were provided.

[teachermom2834]

11 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I do have a question about this.  For the instructors I was referring to before - the ones who take on classes just for income - does it really take tremendous effort to teach the class?  Some instructors teach the same class every semester online and use the same material.  So, wouldn't it be the case that they only have to change the syllabus/assignments  to the correct dates for that particular semester  (some don't even do that) and post?  Once they've done the work once to put together a semester-long course, do they have to do anything over again?  Some just use multiple choice quizzes/exams and don't have to do any grading either.  Or they have discussion boards they aren't involved in, have peer-reviewed papers, etc.  Seems to me like if someone wanted to, they could run a course with minimal effort and involvement.  

Hmmm….my dh has been teaching the same course every semester including summers for at least 15 years. Sometimes multiple sections so he has taught it many many times.

It is a science course so while the quizzes and tests are multiple choice and automatically graded he does manually grade labs which is very time consuming. And he spends so much time answering questions and trouble shooting issues. And now, more than ten years ago, significant time addressing cheating and addressing issues that aren’t really his to address ( I can’t afford the book, I don’t know if this class counts for my major, what if I don’t pay my registration on time and I get dropped from the course, etc). 
 

As a lowly adjunct he also doesn’t really have the power to fix things that would make his life easier and better for his students. For instance perpetual errors in the course that he doesn’t have access to go in and fix so he has to deal with every semester. Or changes that could be made to the schedule that would work better for everyone that are beyond his control. 
 

And my dh does like to keep his foot in the subject matter and in teaching but it is not his “real job”. It’s a side gig so his wife can stay home and homeschool, etc.  So yes it is for the money but he does actually have a heart for teaching which is why he ends up spending so much time on it. But it becomes more thankless every year as students become more demanding. He doesn’t get grief from administrators because I think they need him and he does a good job and he is compensated better than what Bootsie quoted and the money helps us out. But gosh he is a patient guy and it is getting harder and harder.
 

But I’m sure it could appear that he isn’t doing much of anything. He definitely gets scorched on some student evaluations every semester!

[bibiche]

34 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I do have a question about this.  For the instructors I was referring to before - the ones who take on classes just for income - does it really take tremendous effort to teach the class?  Some instructors teach the same class every semester online and use the same material.  So, wouldn't it be the case that they only have to change the syllabus/assignments  to the correct dates for that particular semester  (some don't even do that) and post?  Once they've done the work once to put together a semester-long course, do they have to do anything over again?  Some just use multiple choice quizzes/exams and don't have to do any grading either.  Or they have discussion boards they aren't involved in, have peer-reviewed papers, etc.  Seems to me like if someone wanted to, they could run a course with minimal effort and involvement.  

The profs I know are continually tweaking classes, even those they’ve taught many times before. There might be newer research, newer articles that add insight, different teaching methods they’ve discovered, etc. Is there someone somewhere who is doing a really sh*tty job teaching some stagnant old class? Probably. I don’t know any, but there are people in every profession who are bad at their jobs. I don’t know how anyone could keep a teaching job if they’re that bad unless the school itself is not fulfilling its mission. 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

I do have a question about this.  For the instructors I was referring to before - the ones who take on classes just for income - does it really take tremendous effort to teach the class?  Some instructors teach the same class every semester online and use the same material.  So, wouldn't it be the case that they only have to change the syllabus/assignments  to the correct dates for that particular semester  (some don't even do that) and post?  Once they've done the work once to put together a semester-long course, do they have to do anything over again?  Some just use multiple choice quizzes/exams and don't have to do any grading either.  Or they have discussion boards they aren't involved in, have peer-reviewed papers, etc.  Seems to me like if someone wanted to, they could run a course with minimal effort and involvement.  

Knowing people who teach at a range of universities across the world, my observations are:

It is not easy to develop a quality plug-n-play, college level course for which the professor doesn't have to do anything from semester-to-semester.  I haven't seen it done.  

Any prof I know who has tried to develop such a course has found it has been much more work than they have bargained for.  The university may promise that if the prof invests the time then the course can be taught in future semesters and the prof will reap the rewards for the hard work.  But, the initial work was much harder than thought and then the promise to teach it in the future may be pulled.  Or, the university changes LMS and the course has to be reworked.  

Anyone who is relying on the same multiple choice questions on quizzes and exams, with auto-grading, from semester-to-semester must know that after the first semester all of those questions are available to the students and cheating is rampant.  

The amount of time spent responding to student emails is tremendous.  I have MANY, MANY more end-of-the semester grade complaints than I did in the pre-email era.  It takes a student a few seconds to dash off--Please round up my grade.  If you don't I will lose my scholarship.  This is REALLY IMPORTANT to me.   It takes a lot of time to respond to the student.  I have to look up what class the student is in and what their grade was.  I have to be careful of what information I put in the email.  I can't come across as uncaring, inconsiderate, or snarky.  I have to make sure that I do not say anything that opens up the possibility of a grade appeal or a lawsuit.  There is no downside to the student--just a few seconds to try and see if it works.  And when I have had semesters in which I am teaching large classes, I have received 50 or more of those types of emails; It is also easy to get more than 50 emails before the semester even begins:  do i really need the book?  I am travelling and won't be in class for the first two weeks, can you let me know what I miss?.  Then there are the emails throughout the semester--"I can't figure out Number 8!  Help!"  (Well I am teaching four different classes--which class and which assignment are you talking about?--just figuring that out takes time)

Grading in an online format is time consuming.  I have wondered why it is taking me so long and have timed how long it takes me to move from student-to-student and open a file in the LMS to begin grading.  For some assignments the process of clicking and loading is about 60 seconds--if I have 120 papers to grade, that is 2 hours worth of clicking and loading in addition to grading time.  I could turn over a sheet and begin grading the next student's paper in a second.  

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Kassia said:

I do have a question about this.  For the instructors I was referring to before - the ones who take on classes just for income - does it really take tremendous effort to teach the class?  Some instructors teach the same class every semester online and use the same material.  So, wouldn't it be the case that they only have to change the syllabus/assignments  to the correct dates for that particular semester  (some don't even do that) and post?  Once they've done the work once to put together a semester-long course, do they have to do anything over again?  Some just use multiple choice quizzes/exams and don't have to do any grading either.  Or they have discussion boards they aren't involved in, have peer-reviewed papers, etc.  Seems to me like if someone wanted to, they could run a course with minimal effort and involvement.  

I have developed an online version for the lecture component of my course (there are still in-person recitations). The up-front investment of time is insane. In order to produce quality video, you can estimate a factor of ten - it will take one hour to produce 6 minutes of edited and cut video that isn't just a Zoom recording of your class. 

During the pandemic, I had to administer exams online. Creating a question bank that can be randomized for online exams is, again, much more time consuming than writing a single exam to be worked on paper. 

The worst day of my entire teaching career was the day of a 7:30 am final I had to give through Canvas to 500 students when Canvas was glitching and not displaying the images that belonged to the problems - but only for a subset of the class. Emails started coming at 7:32am. By 11am, I had over 200 emails. The errors could not be fixed; I had to look at every student's screenshots and reward them free points for the glitchy questions they had (again, some student could see their questions jus fine, some had 1, or 2, or 3 bad ones)

I had written beautiful question banks with 1,000 + questions and figures, and the university upgraded to a new version of canvas. As a result, all links that link the respective figures to their problems are broken and I have to go through every.single.question, many extremely similar with tiny variations in the images, and re-link al the figures. Again, a nightmare.

Grading online submitted homework when the students actually work out problems and you're not using the horrible Mastering Physics automated software - time consuming. Canvas needs to cooperate; the students' files need to actually open; the students need to actually know how to scan their files.

And the emails. The amount of emails 500 students generate is staggering - whether it's in person or online. No matter how precisely you explain things online, there will always be some who don't read the announcements, don't read the syllabus, just don't have their stuff together. Writing ten emails explaining where they can find the lab information (who would guess that it might be under the "Labs" tab on my website?); twenty emails explaining that the process for homework submission is explained in detail in xyz announcement and in the Course Info Module etc. 

I receive emails from the disability office for each of the 30 students who have testing accommodations. I also get an email each time one of those 30 students is making a testing center reservation for one of the four exams. That's 150 automated emails I have to open and read to make sure I have a list of these students, they don't need any besides extra time (like readers, note takers, seizure protocol, transcription service, they reserved their exam for the correct date and time and duration. Then I have to contact a large portion for follow-up info.

If you're lucky to have a grader for a course, the grader needs grading keys wit clear rubrics and clear instructions how to grade a problem in detail. They will then ask questions when a student complains about the grading. If you're lucky to have TAs who teach recitations, they need homework solutions, recitation worksheets, schedules when they are supposed to require homework for grading. 

I could go on. Having produced the videos for my online lectures paid off in terms of in-class time after 5 years; however, all the other stuff is proportional to the number of students, whether they are in my in-seat sections or the online one.

And yes, one can create a shitty canned course that has no instructor feedback and consists  of reading assignments and auto-graded multiple-choice quizzes. That's not teaching. That is phoning it in.

Edited September 8, 2022 by regentrude

[teachermom2834]

8 minutes ago, Bootsie said:The amount of time spent responding to student emails is tremendous.  I have MANY, MANY more end-of-the semester grade complaints than I did in the pre-email era.  It takes a student a few seconds to dash off--Please round up my grade.  If you don't I will lose my scholarship.  This is REALLY IMPORTANT to me.   It takes a lot of time to respond to the student.  I have to look up what class the student is in and what their grade was.  I have to be careful of what information I put in the email.  I can't come across as uncaring, inconsiderate, or snarky.  I have to make sure that I do not say anything that opens up the possibility of a grade appeal or a lawsuit.  There is no downside to the student--just a few seconds to try and see if it works.  And when I have had semesters in which I am teaching large classes, I have received 50 or more of those types of emails; It is also easy to get more than 50 emails before the semester even begins:  do i really need the book?  I am travelling and won't be in class for the first two weeks, can you let me know what I miss?.  Then there are the emails throughout the semester--"I can't figure out Number 8!  Help!"  (Well I am teaching four different classes--which class and which assignment are you talking about?--just figuring that out takes time)

This is what is going to end up defeating my dh. The constant email requests and demands and occasional veiled threat. 
 

The amount of time he has to block off after final grades post to answer emails defending and explaining grades is insane. The grading is exactly as it is posted in the syllabus and is shown as a running grade all through the course and then he has to walk the students through how the grade was calculated, etc. Also the pleas he gets to just pass people because they have a lot going on in their personal life are wearing him down. “I couldn’t complete the assignments because I was moving and I had to pick up some extra work shifts. Or “I got married and took a honeymoon in the middle of the semester”. Well what is he supposed to do with that? Just excuse all the assignments? He explains the procedures for missed work and incompletes and how to drop and medical excuses and everything but he can’t just excuse people from doing the work because of life stuff, right? He works with people but they have to attempt to do most of the work. I don’t know. He’s just tired of constantly being made out as a jerk because he isn’t understanding that someone is under a lot of stress and couldn’t do any of the labs but it isn’t their fault. 

Sorry, OP, for venting on your thread! Your question is perfectly reasonable and your student is not a problem one I know 🙂

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, teachermom2834 said:

This is what is going to end up defeating my dh. The constant email requests and demands and occasional veiled threat. 
 

The amount of time he has to block off after final grades post to answer emails defending and explaining grades is insane. The grading is exactly as it is posted in the syllabus and is shown as a running grade all through the course and then he has to walk the students through how the grade was calculated, etc. Also the pleas he gets to just pass people because they have a lot going on in their personal life are wearing him down. “I couldn’t complete the assignments because I was moving and I had to pick up some extra work shifts. Or “I got married and took a honeymoon in the middle of the semester”. Well what is he supposed to do with that? Just excuse all the assignments? He explains the procedures for missed work and incompletes and how to drop and medical excuses and everything but he can’t just excuse people from doing the work because of life stuff, right? He works with people but they have to attempt to do most of the work. I don’t know. He’s just tired of constantly being made out as a jerk because he isn’t understanding that someone is under a lot of stress and couldn’t do any of the labs but it isn’t their fault. 

OMG, yes, this. My exams are in person, and I have made it a policy never to be on campus after the ending of the final. I will not deal with these complaints in person. By email is easier. All procedures are spelled out clearly. There are never extra points at the end of the semester. There is generous slack built into the course for unexpected happenings (lowest test, homework, lab score dropped, and a clear appeals process during the semester in case of extenuating circumstances. 
The number of requests scales with the number of students.

[regentrude]

And as a general statement: teaching online really sucks. It is more work and none of the reward of having contact with actual human students.
During the height of the pandemic when I was forced to everything online, I was ready to quit my job because there was not a molecule of joy in it anymore.