Question about asynchronous college class, grading, teacher response

[elegantlion]

2 hours ago, Kassia said:

I do have a question about this.  For the instructors I was referring to before - the ones who take on classes just for income - does it really take tremendous effort to teach the class?  Some instructors teach the same class every semester online and use the same material.  So, wouldn't it be the case that they only have to change the syllabus/assignments  to the correct dates for that particular semester  (some don't even do that) and post?  Once they've done the work once to put together a semester-long course, do they have to do anything over again?  Some just use multiple choice quizzes/exams and don't have to do any grading either.  Or they have discussion boards they aren't involved in, have peer-reviewed papers, etc.  Seems to me like if someone wanted to, they could run a course with minimal effort and involvement.  

I agree with the below

1 hour ago, bibiche said:

The profs I know are continually tweaking classes, even those they’ve taught many times before. There might be newer research, newer articles that add insight, different teaching methods they’ve discovered, etc. Is there someone somewhere who is doing a really sh*tty job teaching some stagnant old class? Probably. I don’t know any, but there are people in every profession who are bad at their jobs. I don’t know how anyone could keep a teaching job if they’re that bad unless the school itself is not fulfilling its mission. 

Canvas can be a pain, especially if you're trying to pull stuff over from previous semesters and have more than one section. When I TA'd, the instructor of record always had parts that wouldn't transfer correctly. Also, as a TA, I made more than an adjunct with a PhD. 

The other thing I would suggest when your student emails any professor is to make sure they specify what class AND what SECTION. If the instructor needs to get into Canvas to check something, it's a pain to flip through sections to find a specific student. 

We had a two week grading turnaround for papers, exams, etc. For smaller assignments, it was a week. I think that was department policy, although some professors graded sooner. 

[Bootsie]

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

OMG, yes, this. My exams are in person, and I have made it a policy never to be on campus after the ending of the final. I will not deal with these complaints in person. By email is easier. All procedures are spelled out clearly. There are never extra points at the end of the semester. There is generous slack built into the course for unexpected happenings (lowest test, homework, lab score dropped, and a clear appeals process during the semester in case of extenuating circumstances. 
The number of requests scales with the number of students.

I have found that few students will complain in person.  They have to come to my office, which takes time, and actually speak to me, which takes effort.  The volume to deal with by email is so much more that I have found it swamps any benefit of the ease of email.  

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I have found that few students will complain in person.  They have to come to my office, which takes time, and actually speak to me, which takes effort.  The volume to deal with by email is so much more that I have found it swamps any benefit of the ease of email.  

Oh yes, I absolutely agree- I was thinking of how it is easier for me emotionally to deal with it. I'm a softie. I don't do well with crying students in my office. I feel bad fro them - but with 500 students, I cannot make exceptions or grade on a sliding scale.

So it definitely is more time consuming, but I have an easier time handling it.

[UmmIbrahim]

On 9/7/2022 at 1:57 PM, cintinative said:

Do you think this is more common with asynchronous classes? I am rethinking doing more of those in the spring. He wants to take some IT courses and it could go so very wrong without any input from the instructor.

I can't say anything about your particular cc system, but I can speak about ours. This type of asynchronous, mostly teach yourself, minimum prof interaction type of class is part of our Online branch of the community college. My two kids who have taken DE thus far had been told early on to avoid those kind of classes. In our system, they have a different course number that starts with an "E" (i.e. they are marked as something different than a regular-style college class), and when my oldest was applying to college, he had to specify how he had taken his DE classes. The universities we talked to strongly preferred in-person instructional methods, and advised against taking DE with the "online" branch of the school.

Online classes (not the synchronous via zoom versions, which became popular during covid, but the asynchronous classes) tend to get much lower ratings from students overall at our cc. There are always communication problems (professor doesn't respond to emails for weeks at a time! professor hasn't graded any assignments and the class has one week remaining! etc. etc.) and most students don't recommend taking those online classes unless there are no other options.

The synchronous stuff, in our experience, has been wonderful. As long as we've been mindful about "rate my professor" scores, things have gone really well. Now, take all of this with a grain of salt, because your community college system may be very different, but if there is any way for your child to take in-person classes or live synchronous virtual classes, I would really recommend trying those and comparing the quality. It may be that your online versions of classes are bad like ours are. 

Good luck!

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, UmmIbrahim said:

 

The synchronous stuff, in our experience, has been wonderful. As long as we've been mindful about "rate my professor" scores, things have gone really well. Now, take all of this with a grain of salt, because your community college system may be very different, but if there is any way for your child to take in-person classes or live synchronous virtual classes, I would really recommend trying those and comparing the quality. It may be that your online versions of classes are bad like ours are. 

Good luck!

Thank you for this! Unfortunately there were no live but virtual classes at all. Our choices were in person or asynchronous. Our choice was mostly based on logistics. The live classes met three times a week for an hour and it's a half hour drive each way.  So for Comp we decided to do the asynchronous. I am frankly glad because my dad is having a hip replacement next week and I will be caring for him and my mom. I have no idea how we would have managed the 3x/week in person class. I am not sure why they don't have live but virtual classes. Hopefully when this next semester opens up there will be some, and/or our schedule will be less hectic.  

[regentrude]

9 hours ago, UmmIbrahim said:

Online classes (not the synchronous via zoom versions, which became popular during covid, but the asynchronous classes) tend to get much lower ratings from students overall at our cc. There are always communication problems (professor doesn't respond to emails for weeks at a time! professor hasn't graded any assignments and the class has one week remaining! etc. etc.) and most students don't recommend taking those online classes unless there are no other options.

Just a comment on the bolded: Even if there are no communication problems, the professors respond promptly to email, grade, give feedback, etc, asynchronous online classes will get lower ratings because they it is more difficult for the students to stay motivated and focused.

I teach the identical content in my in-person lectures and my asynchronous online lectures; all students also have to attend in-person recitations and labs; all students have the same assignments, exams, grading scale. The only difference is the delivery mode of the lecture component. The student ratings for the online section are always lower than the ratings for the in-person sections. Not only that: we have analyzed the data of several thousand students over several years, and the students in the online lectures perform on average half a letter grade lower on every single exam and their final grade (and, to reiterate: recitations and labs are in person, and all students have access to 10 hours of help sessions each week; the exams identical, given in-person to all students simultaneously)

Even the best designed online class faces the obstacle that many students lack the discipline to be successful in this format. Because it is much more difficult. I have taken online classes myself, and it is very hard to resist distraction when watching class on the computer. And it's much easier to procrastinate when there is no scheduled class time.

In our study, we also found that the students least likely to succeed in online classes (as measured by lower performance in pre-requisite courses and number of repeats) are more likely to choose the online delivery mode over having to actually attend a scheduled class on campus. 

Online classes may be a fantastic solution for some students with logistics issues and family or job responsibilities, but on a large scale, they are not a good fit for the average 20 y/o college student. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

17 hours ago, cintinative said:

. I am not sure why they don't have live but virtual classes. 

That was the least desirable option when students were polled every quarter during the pandemic at the community college we go to for classes. People prefer to either be on campus or asynchronous (those who can’t or don’t want to commit to fixed time slots). My kids had Zoom classes during the pandemic and students were asking when more classes will be back in campus. When Zoom goes down, people panic and check emails from their prof on what to do. When home internet goes down due to either the internet or power outage, people have to rely on cellular hotspot or mobile hotspot which is what one of my kid did.  We leave for the library in another city if there is time for the internet access but sometimes Xfinity internet or electricity would go down just before class. When class was on campus and there was a power outage, the math prof just continue teaching on the whiteboard. 

[UmmIbrahim]

10 hours ago, regentrude said:

Just a comment on the bolded: Even if there are no communication problems, the professors respond promptly to email, grade, give feedback, etc, asynchronous online classes will get lower ratings because they it is more difficult for the students to stay motivated and focused.

I teach the identical content in my in-person lectures and my asynchronous online lectures; all students also have to attend in-person recitations and labs; all students have the same assignments, exams, grading scale. The only difference is the delivery mode of the lecture component.

Oh I can definitely see lower student motivation leading to less desirable outcomes in the course. Your online version of the class sounds a lot more interactive with regards to other components (labs, recitations, etc.) than the online version of the courses offered at our community college. Those online versions are almost universally not just a difference in lecture delivery method. They almost feel more like coursera/edx type offerings - i.e. you are pretty much on your own with dubious email-based help available (sometimes even no recorded lectures! just readings!) but please keep up with the deadlines!

I think a course like yours as you describe would probably be the best of all possible worlds with regards to an asynchronous class, but, as you describe, even the best version of asynchronous doesn't match the in-person, live class.

 

[UmmIbrahim]

18 hours ago, cintinative said:

Thank you for this! Unfortunately there were no live but virtual classes at all. Our choices were in person or asynchronous. Our choice was mostly based on logistics. The live classes met three times a week for an hour and it's a half hour drive each way.  So for Comp we decided to do the asynchronous. I am frankly glad because my dad is having a hip replacement next week and I will be caring for him and my mom. I have no idea how we would have managed the 3x/week in person class. I am not sure why they don't have live but virtual classes. Hopefully when this next semester opens up there will be some, and/or our schedule will be less hectic.  

That's really too bad. I can definitely relate to taking a schedule hit for driving out to an in-person DE class! One semester, I drove an hour each way for my oldest son to take a class with a particularly awesome professor (it really ended up being worth it!). This year, my middle son has had his first chance to do DE in-person (he has previously had all synchronous online classes because of covid), and it's going really well. This kid doesn't mind online classes at all (my oldest hated them), but even for a kid who doesn't mind live online, the in-person is just still so much more engaging. I drive 30 minutes each way twice a week to make that work, and I do think it has been worth it. I hope you are able to juggle your schedule so that you can try some in-person offerings next semester. Even if you can just squeeze in one class, you might find it to be worthwhile!

Edited September 10, 2022 by UmmIbrahim

[Arcadia]

18 hours ago, cintinative said:

. I am frankly glad because my dad is having a hip replacement next week and I will be caring for him and my mom. I have no idea how we would have managed the 3x/week in person class. 

I don’t drive so when my DS17 had classes on campus from Monday to Thursday, we either take public transport (slightly over 2hrs, train and bus) or we use Uber.  This fall he has classes Monday, Wednesday, Friday so we would likely Uber there on days my husband can’t drop us off early and take public transport back. 
Uber does require an adult to accompany. Is carpooling an option?
 

Another thing we did was have my husband drop us off at 8am before he goes to work and then DS17 did pre-class prep and read stuff related to his interest at the school cafe until class. That was okay for classes before noon but a long time to be in campus for a 1pm class. 
 

ETA: both my teens aren’t interested in driving. Teens drive to high school and college here so that’s another option if your child don’t mind driving.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Arcadia

[cintinative]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

ETA: both my teens aren’t interested in driving. Teens drive to high school and college here so that’s another option if your child don’t mind driving.

We're still working on driving. 😃 Hopefully soon. Although, then we need another vehicle also. So it's complicated. 😃

[easypeasy]

What an interesting thread!!!

OP: I would {{gently}} suggest that you start working the word "we" out of your vocabulary and begin to focus on "he" and "him." Your son needs to start steering his own ship and owning his college experience - even with dual enrollment. This was a hard thing for me to do because, for years, we had been a team. And, even though we still *were* technically a team, I started to notice that my kids would say "we" when talking to a teacher or professor without thinking about it. "We had a question about the syllabus...." So I would suggest to begin that transition now when your son is just starting the dual enrollment adventure and push the responsibility onto his shoulders when you speak, even though you are there to help guide him every step of the way.

Unfortunately the experience of having non-communicative instructors happened to my kids as well when they did dual enrollment. They would use Canvas first and then email the professor if they hadn't heard back within 24 hours. Another 24 hours, they would re-email, saying something like, "I'm afraid my previous email might have gotten lost in your inbox, so..."  Usually, after that 2nd email, they would get a response. I think some professors are so inundated with emails that they only reply to those students who are persistent.

It's usually the professors with unorganized Canvas layouts and bare bones' syllabi who are also slow to respond. Funny thing is, if they would give detailed information to the students, the students would email them half as often!!!

@Kassia My kids and I definitely had online professors who absolutely did not spend much time at all interacting or updating their course. Over the span of approx 4 years, all of us took a couple of the same courses with the same professors. A couple were 100% multiple-choice exams with Powerpoint lectures that were taken directly from the textbook provider. The book had been updated, but the prof said you could use any book from <this range> to <that range> and all 4+ years that class was exactly the same. Unchanged. lol So, for those adjunct professors, it was an easy gig.

With that said, I think that's the amount of work that most adjuncts are being paid to do. It's disgraceful to pay TAs as much or more (as a PP said above) than a fully-educated teaching professor with experience.

For those who are or are married to adjunct/tenure-track professors, it was fascinating reading about the emails students are sending. I can't fathom being inundated with that many/that type of emails after the semester was over. I have had students (in my own classes) say similar things to me after missing several classes for personal (non-urgent) reasons who would be shocked that the professor wouldn't simply cancel out the assignments they missed (with zero communication to the prof beforehand or anything!).

And I agree that online grading has to take longer than sitting down in a comfy couch with a stack of papers to skim over. I would go insane if I had to read paper after paper and make notes on my computer. 🤢 You all should get major awards for that.

Edited September 12, 2022 by easypeasy

[cintinative]

Thanks everyone. He emailed himself via Canvas, and although he didn't get a response, some things were graded within a couple of days.  So that's good.  

I'm not sure about next semester. I was kind of hoping he could take some IT courses live, online, synchronous but this college doesn't offer that. Given how this asynchronous course has gone, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't want to try this format again.  So I am hoping we can make live classes happen.

Edited September 12, 2022 by cintinative

[alisoncooks]

My 16 yr old is taking two asynchronous DE classes this year. We’ve not been impressed — in fact, I’m totally rethinking our use of the cc system for future semesters. (May switch to CLEP for Gen Ed courses.)

My main complaint is there is literally no instruction for one of the classes. There are assignments but no instruction on content prior to the assignment (it’s a basic writing course).  The other class is reading-heavy and online tests…but again, no input or lectures or anything from the professor. 

I didn’t realize this was pretty common for the asynchronous classes. (I guess I expected video lectures or something…)

[cintinative]

23 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

My 16 yr old is taking two asynchronous DE classes this year. We’ve not been impressed — in fact, I’m totally rethinking our use of the cc system for future semesters. (May switch to CLEP for Gen Ed courses.)

My main complaint is there is literally no instruction for one of the classes. There are assignments but no instruction on content prior to the assignment (it’s a basic writing course).  The other class is reading-heavy and online tests…but again, no input or lectures or anything from the professor. 

I didn’t realize this was pretty common for the asynchronous classes. (I guess I expected video lectures or something…)

I feel the exact same way. I thought that there would be videos or something. It's not a huge deal with composition since he has had so much prior writing instruction, but next semester I was going to have him take some IT courses and I am really uncomfortable if this is how they are structured. The trouble is, I really don't know of any way to find out other than asking current students (which is what I am looking into).  We could potentially change to a community college (from the university) where they have live online classes, or we could try to do in person live classes at the university.  A lot will depend on what sections are still open by the time we get to register. 

[Miss Tick]

12 hours ago, cintinative said:

I feel the exact same way. I thought that there would be videos or something. It's not a huge deal with composition since he has had so much prior writing instruction, but next semester I was going to have him take some IT courses and I am really uncomfortable if this is how they are structured. The trouble is, I really don't know of any way to find out other than asking current students (which is what I am looking into).  We could potentially change to a community college (from the university) where they have live online classes, or we could try to do in person live classes at the university.  A lot will depend on what sections are still open by the time we get to register. 

This unknown was one of the reasons why we ended up not doing CC classes. The homeschool coordinator is fabulous and yet it wasn't until just before the semester started that she would know how the classes were going to be taught, and often not until just *after* the semester started that she would know who was teaching. I understand the reasons for this, but for the same $600-700 I could find a comparable class with a known presentation style and reviewed teacher. If the system were bigger or if the state subsidized our cost (or, perhaps if I had more driven students) my answer might have been different, but as it is I couldn't pull the trigger.

[UmmIbrahim]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:30 PM, alisoncooks said:

My 16 yr old is taking two asynchronous DE classes this year. We’ve not been impressed — in fact, I’m totally rethinking our use of the cc system for future semesters. (May switch to CLEP for Gen Ed courses.)

My main complaint is there is literally no instruction for one of the classes. There are assignments but no instruction on content prior to the assignment (it’s a basic writing course).  The other class is reading-heavy and online tests…but again, no input or lectures or anything from the professor. 

I didn’t realize this was pretty common for the asynchronous classes. (I guess I expected video lectures or something…)

Yeah, this sounds exactly like our CC Online branch classes. Everyone says that it's pretty much teach yourself, and the students who like them are often older students who need to quickly knock out foundational requirements (like precalc, foundational math, foundational English, etc.) on a condensed schedule. Other times, it's students who work full-time that like the flexibility, but, again, they know that they are signing up to teach themselves with minimal support resources. A good option for some of those groups, for sure, but it's really not my idea of a "class." And certainly not one that I would be paying the same tuition for as a full-session, in-person, maximum support regular class!

Good luck to your kid in getting through the classes this semester. Our experience with in-person has been overall stellar, so I hope that you can find a way to try those out in subsequent semesters if the logistics work out!

[alisoncooks]

1 hour ago, UmmIbrahim said:

Good luck to your kid in getting through the classes this semester. Our experience with in-person has been overall stellar, so I hope that you can find a way to try those out in subsequent semesters if the logistics work out!

Thanks! Our cc offers career paths, in addition to gen ed/associates paths. I think I’ll have her do some in-person career exploration next semester. The cc has a sustained agriculture path that my dd wants to try (she adores plants). 🙂 

Edited September 19, 2022 by alisoncooks

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, UmmIbrahim said:

Yeah, this sounds exactly like our CC Online branch classes. Everyone says that it's pretty much teach yourself, and the students who like them are often older students who need to quickly knock out foundational requirements (like precalc, foundational math, foundational English, etc.) on a condensed schedule. Other times, it's students who work full-time that like the flexibility, but, again, they know that they are signing up to teach themselves with minimal support resources. A good option for some of those groups, for sure, but it's really not my idea of a "class." And certainly not one that I would be paying the same tuition for as a full-session, in-person, maximum support regular class!

If that's the set-up, you can have that much cheaper with a test prep book and a CLEP exam.