Suggestions for replying to argumentative people

[Faith-manor]

With my sister in law, I took to NOT talking, and dead eye staring if she tried to strike up a conversation. That ended the drama. 

[Katy]

Audible sigh while searching on smartphone until you can show evidence you’re right, “Google says you’re wrong. Your constant need to argue even when you’re wrong is exhausting and borderline abusive. I won’t do this with you any more.”

Then leave. Or hang up. The next time, “Google says you’re wrong. You know I won’t argue with you so I’m leaving now.”

When it inevitably escalates, “Do I need to have you tested for dementia? You know I won’t argue with you when you’re acting this way. I’m leaving.”

 

ETA: I know this is obnoxiously direct, but so is the ridiculous behavior that prompts it. IME it stops it, but siblings will criticize you for trying to stop the abuse. Ignore them. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Katy

[history-fan]

I have been there so many times. Now I take out my phone and pull up mapquest or google maps and say something like well lets check this out. Some times its directions/locations but other times its information that can easily be looked up on my phone.  I have found lately that when I do this the person frequently starts back-peddling on their "facts". 

[Tanaqui]

Visit less. Seriously, just stop doing this to yourself. Stay home. If you do visit, and start getting this garbage, pick up and leave. You don't need to say why, just say you're leaving and will talk next time. Then take your sweet time before next time rolls around again.

[GracieJane]

In matters of controversy, don’t argue. If someone speaks well, say “yes! I agree.”  If she speaks wrongly, say “I don’t know enough to comment”. Your mind will always be at peace, and they will always feel foolish later.

I have a dear friend who is always zealous in her arguments. Every year, she is wrong about daylight savings time. I know she’s wrong, but she is adamant that she is correct. I learned years ago to smile, handwave “oh these hour changes are always so confusing aren’t they?” and change the subject. Every year, she texts me the next day and says “oh I got the season wrong! It’s actually *correct hour*!” 

I am always happier that I said nothing, and I try to remind myself that I have irritating habits that others have the grace to overlook at times too.

 

[Indigo Blue]

22 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Visit less. Seriously, just stop doing this to yourself. Stay home. If you do visit, and start getting this garbage, pick up and leave. You don't need to say why, just say you're leaving and will talk next time. Then take your sweet time before next time rolls around again.

I usually visit every few weeks for a few hours. I have started leaving a bit earlier than before. This feels manageable, usually. 

[AmandaVT]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

I like this. I think watching things on YouTube or TV is a good idea. Because otherwise, even if there is no kind of disagreement, there is extreme negativity, doom and gloom, or gossip. 

This is my MIL. It's like a minefield trying to talk with her, so I've gotten decent at changing the subjects to the most boring things I can chat about. I love weather, so I'll start talking about that. Or house stuff. Cats. The westminster dog show. Football. Every inane topic I can come up with and keep a conversation going. Or the conversation will take a nasty turn quickly. "Gay people are terrible and don't deserve any rights and back in your day it was ok to say the n word? So - did you know that calico cats are less likely to cause allergies in people? I wonder why?" (those were mild examples too) I have to do a hard turn because there is no coming out of the depths otherwise. It was SO hard at first, but now I only need to occasionally sit on my hands or make a break for the bathroom to achieve inner calm and boringness.  

[prairiewindmomma]

6 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

I usually visit every few weeks for a few hours. I have started leaving a bit earlier than before. This feels manageable, usually. 

Girl, why?!!!

Bring lunch, talk over lunch, jet out of there as soon as you are done. <1hr and hopefully her mouth is full most of that time. If she’s nasty, bolt. You know when that moment arrives when the niceness turns off. 

[gardenmom5]

 

when dealing with someone who likes to argue - don't argue.  She may or may not be narcissistic/toxic - but the same "Pass the bean dip" (boundaries) techniques work.  You must use them every time.

Dh taught me a favorite quip.  "don't try and teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."  iow: you don't argue with someone who likes to argue - they don't want to learn anything.  the other is "don't wrestle with a pig, they enjoy it and you get covered with mud."

 

read Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud.

 

Don't announce your boundary rules - just impose them.

 

I have hard rules for my brother (which I will get to use tomorrow at my aunt's memorial service.  sigh. . . . ) When I interact with him, I give him ONE chance at a subject change.  (I change the subject. If I'm feeling particularly generous, I'll change the subject to something he likes to talk about.  Like himself. - though I am SO DONE with listening to him whine about ex-wives.) when he blows that, I say goodbye.  I hang up the phone, I leave the room/restaurant, etc. etc. etc.  He is not, under ANY circumstances, allowed in my home.  I will only meet him places I can walk out at a moment's notice.  If I meet him in a restaurant - I make sure I have cash for my portion of the bill.

I had to learn, and practice, all of this as I sure didn't learn any of them growing up, and was punished when I started implementing them.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Girl, why?!!!

Bring lunch, talk over lunch, jet out of there as soon as you are done. <1hr and hopefully her mouth is full most of that time. If she’s nasty, bolt. You know when that moment arrives when the niceness turns off. 

This.

The first time I *knowingly* started imposing boundaries was with my narcissistic grandmother.  *no* *one* requires you to tolerate being treated poorly. *no* *one*.

She got ONE 15 minute phone call, once a week.  ***as long as she was polite***!!!  (btw: I got that instruction as an answer to many fervent prayers.)  If she was rude "Bye, gotta go."  No arguments, no excuses, just "bye".  Many didn't last five minutes - one lasted three minutes (only because that was the days of corded phones and I had to walk around furniture to get back to the base to hang it up.). It was months - if not a year before a phone call actually lasted 15 minutes.

[gardenmom5]

I admit - I did have fun pushing mil's buttons one time.  She was living with us - and I was still pretty young and barely coming out of the effects of the narcissist abuse of my childhood.

 

"gee mil, I'm so glad I meet your need to complain about people".   For a good half an house - she stalked around the house grumbling about how she didn't like to complain.  I sat there, laughed, caught my breath - and had my sanity restored.

I came to appreciate mil, I also had to have good boundaries with her.  The nice effect of that was usually when I saw her in her later years, she was complimentary and how much she appreciated me.  But she was mentally going down too.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

The thing is, I visit, and we have to talk about something. I avoid most things and try to keep things light. Restaurants and the Triangle are neutral. It just seems it’s getting a bit worse lately. And harder.

And, yes, ds is very sensible. He also knows how this person is, and probably decided to say something to end it.

Keep a list of things to talk about

funny youtube videos to watch (cute animals are good)

Places to go

Reduce how much time you spend - and stick to your schedule.  Don't be dependent upon her moving.

MIL was like a toddler, you can keep her busy or she will find something to keep herself busy.  She'd stay at sil's house - and sil *always* had a list of things for mil to do so she didn't have time to come up with things by herself.

 

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Let me try to explain how there is more to this argument over something seemingly so trivial. I don’t know if I can. 
 

There was a point in that conversation when I could feel her uneasiness toward me. That moment happened when I did not back down that very last time. I usually do, because it’s not worth risking her getting angrier. But I’m not “supposed” to be that assertive toward her.  

She considered that as my challenging her, and she just doesn’t like  that. 

This is why it’s so upsetting.

 

It's upsetting because you're grieving the reality vs what you wish was reality.  It's disappointing.  allow yourself to grieve.

One of grandmother's favorite tactics was "you do what I want and I'll leave you something in my will".   So - she threatened me with "if you don't treat me better, I'll cut you out of my will". - go. ahead.    she just sort of started at me.  Months later - If you don't treat me better, I'll cut you out of my will.  I was genuinely surprised and said I thought she already had.

It was *that* expression.  She knew she had no more power over me of any kind.  And she hated me for it.

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

This is one kind of gaslighting where they try to distort your reality so that you are told their version of what you did, when you did it and how you did it until you agree with them.

Pull out Google maps and show them where the place is. Even then they will insist that they thought that you are wrong.

I agree with the "this is a kind of gaslighting".
but I know you're not the only one who suggested it, but I would never use a map program (or anything else) to *prove* you're right.  All that does it anger them even more and can seriously ramp up the passive aggression.

[mathnerd]

38 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

All that does it anger them even more and can seriously ramp up the passive aggression.

Yeah, you are right! Greyrocking is the best solution. Why poke the angry bear? Say that you gotta go and run away!

[Shoeless]

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Let me try to explain how there is more to this argument over something seemingly so trivial. I don’t know if I can. 
 

There was a point in that conversation when I could feel her uneasiness toward me. That moment happened when I did not back down that very last time. I usually do, because it’s not worth risking her getting angrier. But I’m not “supposed” to be that assertive toward her. My brother can be, and has many times. She doesn’t bat an eye. This will never, ever change. I knew the moment it had gone too far, but I had really done nothing “wrong”. 

She considered that as my challenging her, and she just doesn’t like  that. And I really never even raised my voice or let her see that I was getting irritated. I just flatly stated the facts.

If the same conversation started between me and Dh or one of my sons, that whole thing would have looked entirely different.

This is why it’s so upsetting.

 

She gives you that look because she knows that's the line in the sand. You'll stand up for yourself only until "the look", and then you will back down and she gets what she wants.

What would happen if you go toe to toe with her?  What's the worst that happens if you stood up to her and told her to cut the crap?

Consider it as a thought experiment before trying it.

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I would say a fact, and then I would change the subject.

I would NEVER let her get me to lie.  NEVER.  Because then I'm not being true to my own morals.  But I would avoid continuing to engage by moving the conversation in a different direction.

'You WERE there with me."  "No, it must have been someone else."  
"I distinctly remember it was you!"  "Must have been my secret twin.  I hear the desserts are wonderful!  Did you try the chocolate one?  I know you like chocolate a lot.  OH!  By the way, someone gave me a fudge recipe to try.  I'm so excited!"  Divert, divert, divert, but do not be foresworn.

 

[Tanaqui]

Every few weeks for a few hours?

Geez. People with great relationships with their wonderful, loving parents who definitely did not abuse them at all do not visit that often, for that long.

I mean, some do, but lots of people just don't.

Taper off even more. Go one more week between visits. Start leaving half an hour sooner, and fill up as much of your visit as possible with movie watching or cards or something else that inhibits conversation.

You owe this to yourself.

[gardenmom5]

25 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

She gives you that look because she knows that's the line in the sand. You'll stand up for yourself only until "the look", and then you will back down and she gets what she wants.

 

This.
gray rock.

13 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Every few weeks for a few hours?

Geez. People with great relationships with their wonderful, loving parents who definitely did not abuse them at all do not visit that often, for that long.

I mean, some do, but lots of people just don't.

Taper off even more. Go one more week between visits. Start leaving half an hour sooner, and fill up as much of your visit as possible with movie watching or cards or something else that inhibits conversation.

You owe this to yourself.

Yeah - 1dd & 1ds (frequently - had been every week.  The show they were watching ended.) come to my house to hang out with 2ds and watch something.  Many times 1dd doesn't even bother to say "hello" OR "goodbye".   I only know she's here because the dogs come looking for me - but sometimes they come with 1ds.

at least 1ds will usually seek me out before he leaves to give me a hug.

[saraha]

Since the Thanksgiving fiasco,  I have been trying very hard to redefine how I interact with my mom. I had very little contact with her after Christmas at the boards suggestion until she called the day before my birthday. For the first time ever she did not invite me to her house for lunch for my birthday. I was fine with that. I mean I noted it, but honestly wasn't sad about it. She has been very nice on the phone. I think she knows she messed up so royally and can feel the change in the way I am with her. Now, I just agree with everything she says. I don't care if it's not true, or whatever. Just agree. It is starting to get to her that she can't get me to argue with her. I remain absolutely aloof, and if she asks any questions, the answer is always, it's fine. They're fine. Everything is fine. She gets nothing from me. I am rocking the gray rock, feeling pretty successful at my new boundaries.

  Last week I had to take one of the kids to a class halfway between her house and ours. Gray rocking has been going well, so I offered to come up to her house and give her her present from one of the kids and to pick up the games we accidentally left there. I was on a very short time line as I had to be back to pick dd18 up. The visit went fine. She talked, I listened politely, agreed with everything she had to say, went well. Total pleasant gray rock. Feeling like that went well, I offered to come by the next week while dd was in class. I admit I have been feeling guilty because I am spending so much time and energy on my inlaws, and it would be super convenient to visit while I have to wait for dd anyway. The next day, she called the house to thank dd17 for the gift. I answered and she was like, what's wrong with you? You didn't have anything to say last night. (which is funny because even when I do have something to talk about I can't get a word in or she gets bored listening to it and goes back to talking) I said nothing is wrong, I thought we had a good visit. Then she talks to dd17 and asks her what's wrong with me. Tells her I am acting different etc. so then dd17 was all worried, started asking the other kids if they thought there was something wrong with me etc, and then finally came to me about it. I told her nothing was wrong, I was trying out new conversation patterns on Grandma.  Dd asked, "Well what should I say to her when I call her back?" My mom wanted her to find out what was wrong with me and call her back.  I was shocked, I thought we had a good visit and had even offered to come back next week. Dh said, "You know if you have a good visit she finds a way to blow it up afterward." I just let it go, told dd not to call her back, it was fine, I will talk to her.

 I had already told her I would come back Wednesday night so I did, but I said I was taking her out to dinner but I could only stay an hour since I had to pick up dd. I didn't have to leave that early but I was making it a short and sweet visit. We went to this Mexican restaurant. I opened the menu, quickly found what I wanted and laid the menu aside. She asked what I was going to have and I told her enchiladas. She said, "Oh, you don't want that. Look they have fajitas (which is her favorite) I said Oh yeah. Well Im having enchiladas. She proceeded to read the whole menu trying to talk me out of ordering enchiladas! I just kept saying I am ordering enchiladas. I was so proud of myself, pre-Thanksgiving I would have just went with whatever she said whether I wanted it or not just to get her to stop. Then, they bring you chips and salsa. I am sitting there snacking away while shes telling me about her week, the waiter comes back and she asks for a bowl of cheese sauce. He brings it. She wants me to try it, she really likes it. I try it. I don't like it. I go back to eating salsa. She says, stop eating that salsa, its free, I have to pay for the cheese, eat that. I say I don't care for the cheese and I really like the salsa. I have a few more chips. She slides the bowl of salsa away from me and the bowl of cheese towards me. I slide the cheese away and pull the salsa back over. She says "Fine you can just take it home with you then."

 Now, because of  Thanksgiving, she was refusing to talk to my sister for a long time. I have not asked about how things have been going between the two of them up to this point. But in a lull in the monologue, I mean conversation, I mention texting my sister on Super bowl Sunday and ask if shes talked to her in a while. She said they have been talking every Wednesday and Saturday because my sister started a new diet and is having my mom be her accountability. I say oh that's good. She said something about losing weight. I guess my sister has either forgiven her or is just moving on from it. Anyway, I say something like I'm glad they talk regularly, I think she is a little lonely. Conversation moves on. I leave restaurant, decide that the visit was mostly a success, except for her being weird about the food and making the waiter put the cheese sauce in a little cup for me to take home. I feel like, hey, maybe this can be a regular thing! She even asked how my inlaws are etc.

Oh, no.

Thursday afternoon my mom calls. Ok, that's weird, I just saw her last night. She literally starts the conversation with "I think you are hiding something from me." I am like "WHAT?" She goes on to tell me that when I asked about my sister last night I didn't look her in the eye so she thinks I know something about her and am not telling her.  She hates when my sister and I talk to each other and in the past has always tried to be the go between.  I tell her I was probably cutting a bite of my enchilada. She grills me for a while and I get frustrated because I have only texted a few times with my sister since Christmas and have not talked to her at all. We are not close, I wonder why (sarcastic eyeroll) She hangs up. An hour later she calls me back and starts telling me she thinks my sister should go get anti-depressents, and keeps saying don't you think she should? I keep saying, I have no idea. We don't really talk, but if you mentioned it to her, then I guess you put it on her radar. This went on for a while and when I refused to call her and tell her I also think she needs to be on pills she gets frustrated, acts like I don't care about my sister and says well you are no help and hangs up. So out of no where, she had decided to call my sister at work in the middle of the school day to tell her she needs pills. I text my sister and ask her if she is ok, mom just called talking about anti-depressents. Sister goes off on this big thing about my mom calling her at the school, so she answers it thinking it's an emergency. Mom asks her if she can talk and sis says not right now but I can later. Mom says "that's all right, I just need three minutes of your time. I think you need to go on anti-depression pills. You have sounded sad the last few times I've talked to you and you should go see a doctor and get some pills." My sis was floored. She's like "ok, mom, I'll think about it" just to get her off the phone. I guess my sister didn't agree and say she would do that right this minute, so my mom called me to get me to call her and tell her she needs pills. My poor sister was like what the heck?!? That is so out of left field. The only thing we have talked about the last few times was my diet and what Im doing etc. I am not sad, what is she talking about?

All this long story to say, I finally went and visited my mom and was so proud of myself for being total gray rock, let her do all the talking etc and thought it was a good visit. I was nice and polite, let her do all the talking. Only thing I didn't do was let her dictate what I was going to eat.  But I guess since she couldn't get anything started while I visited, she decided to try creating drama some other way. I will not be going back next Wednesday, I'll just sit and wait for dd.

 So I guess the gray rock thing is working when we actually interact, but I guess her crazy is going to come out in some other way? Do other people find this to be true? If @Indigo Blue starts gray rocking her person, will this happen to her?

[prairiewindmomma]

There will be efforts to stir up drama, because that is their drug of choice, and you have to either grey rock or exit the scene. Usually it will escalate (the attempts) until they realize they can’t get a stir out of you.

You cannot have a healthy/normal relationship with a true narcissist. You as a person don’t truly exist for them. It’s just what you offer them….narcissistic supply.

[Tanaqui]

I want to say something else.

You're not doing her any favors by "being nice". Inasmuch as people like this can improve, they certainly *won't* improve, by any measure, if there are no consequences for their bad behavior.

The nicest, kindest thing you can do for her is to be kind to yourself, and stop going over to let her hurt you some more.

It's like dealing with a toddler. Your toddler might think she's happiest when she's allowed to stay up and eat lots of cookies, but you know better and so you enforce a rule - no, and no. Your mom might think she's happiest when she's allowed to pick fights with you, but she'd really be happier if you didn't patently loathe her presence, and the only way to get to that point is to enforce your boundaries very consistently until she learns to act better.

She doesn't need to understand your boundaries, or even agree with them. She just needs to know "Uh-oh. If I pick a stupid argument now, Indigo Blue will leave again. I don't want her to leave!"

In the short run, she will be unhappy as you refuse to put up with this nonsense any more. In the long run, you at least will be much happier (which is what really matters) and she probably will be happier as well, because at least your expectations will be consistent.

[gardenmom5]

16 minutes ago, saraha said:

  I am rocking the gray rock, 

 

she talks to dd17 and asks her what's wrong with me. Tells her I am acting different etc. so then dd17 was all worried, started asking the other kids if they thought there was something wrong with me etc,   I'd have a chat with your dd about the inappropriateness of that, she's being used as a flying monkey by your mother to find out information.  She should have come TO YOU first.

 

and then finally came to me about it. I told her nothing was wrong, I was trying out new conversation patterns on Grandma.  Dd asked, "Well what should I say to her when I call her back?" My mom wanted her to find out what was wrong with me and call her back.  I was shocked, I thought we had a good visit and had even offered to come back next week.  

You're no longer playing by grandma's rules, and she's still trying to figure out what's going on.  You dd can call grandma - SAY YOU ARE FINE (rinse repeat), and *change the subject*.  If grandma wants to ask about you -  grandma can call you.  It's not your dd's place to be grilled by  your mother for information about anyone else.

She needs to "NOT" be grandma's tool.

 

Thursday afternoon my mom calls. Ok, that's weird, I just saw her last night. She literally starts the conversation with "I think you are hiding something from me." I am like "WHAT?" ......  She hates when my sister and I talk to each other and in the past has always tried to be the go between. 

 That is so out of left field.

  

is it really?  or is it stuff she would have done before the blow-up at Thanksgiving and you wouldn't have thought was abnormal.  Are you sure it's not a case of "a leopard doesn't change its spots" . . . . . . 

This is why you erect your boundaries, and gray rock, - and MUST KEEP THEM UP.  They will try to pull the down boundaries so things can go back to their preferred drama level.     

[saraha]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

43 minutes ago, saraha said:

 That is so out of left field.

  

is it really?  or is it stuff she would have done before the blow-up at Thanksgiving and you wouldn't have thought was abnormal.  Are you sure it's not a case of "a leopard doesn't change its spots" . . . . . . 

I meant my sister thought the idea that she was depressed was out of left field. Like of all things, depression.

You are right though in that it is my mom being my mom extra. It's like I opened the door a little bit and she immediately started to start something. When she couldn't deny my new boundaries in conversation, she started on my sister. I don't understand what insisting my sister is depressed gets her though.

[Indigo Blue]

Wow @saraha. I think you handled everything just great. The food thing, wow, you did good. It seems she really has noticed a difference in you and she just doesn’t know what to do with that. 
 

Regarding your sister and your mom wanting her to take pills for some thing,  goodness. My mom does that, too. Not with me, but other people. Also, many years ago when I was in my 30’s, she was obsessed with thinking I was too stressed.  I wasn’t, but she was determined that I was.

“You’re probably stressed.” 

“No. I’m not stressed”

”You can be stressed and not know it.”

”No, I’m really not.”

”Well, it can affect your health and make you sick. And you don’t even realize that you are stressed. How do you know for sure you’re not stressed? You could be and not know.”

“I don’t feel stressed. I feel a normal amount of stress that everyone feels, but I’m not stressed to the point that it’s affecting my health.”

Well, you just very well could be.”

At the next visit, this whole thing would start over again. And again. Before it finally stopped, THAT made me stressed.

Every time I had a cold in those days, she was always so sure it was allergies. Always. I could tell I was actually sick, but it just had to be allergies. Same type of thing. 

And to answer your question, there is no way my mom hasn’t noticed that things are different with me these last few years. Gray rock works really well, but I think that’s probably what has increased that unspoken uneasiness. If everything is going great and you seem to like her and are on her side, she just adores you and thinks you’re great. If you put distance in between you and she senses on some level you are aren’t laughing and being close, that’s a threat to her. Anyone she works with is either praised (they adore her) or she talks horrible about them (they don’t fawn all over her). So that’s what it is. I have some boundaries now, and under the surface she is wondering, but she doesn’t say anything. She doesn’t like it. I’m never mean to her. I don’t lie to her. I don’t play games with her. Those are things she will do to others. So, I don’t fawn over her like I used to, but she really can’t ask what’s wrong, because there is nothing for her to cling to to bring up, as there is really nothing she can point out that I’ve done or not done. It has just happened gradually. But I think this is why things are just kind of weird right now. But yes, gray rock works when I don’t cave in and try to argue back about where restaurants are.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Indigo Blue]

47 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I want to say something else.

You're not doing her any favors by "being nice". Inasmuch as people like this can improve, they certainly *won't* improve, by any measure, if there are no consequences for their bad behavior.

The nicest, kindest thing you can do for her is to be kind to yourself, and stop going over to let her hurt you some more.

It's like dealing with a toddler. Your toddler might think she's happiest when she's allowed to stay up and eat lots of cookies, but you know better and so you enforce a rule - no, and no. Your mom might think she's happiest when she's allowed to pick fights with you, but she'd really be happier if you didn't patently loathe her presence, and the only way to get to that point is to enforce your boundaries very consistently until she learns to act better.

She doesn't need to understand your boundaries, or even agree with them. She just needs to know "Uh-oh. If I pick a stupid argument now, Indigo Blue will leave again. I don't want her to leave!"

In the short run, she will be unhappy as you refuse to put up with this nonsense any more. In the long run, you at least will be much happier (which is what really matters) and she probably will be happier as well, because at least your expectations will be consistent.

I know you are right. It just isn’t that simple or easy. I don’t want to never see my mom. She has done all sorts of things worthy of having a person evaluate whether to have her in their life, but she honestly isn’t evil ALL the time. I actually have a decent relationship with my gc brother. I see him when I visit. Sometimes I imagine what it would be like to visit far, far less often. We sort of have things on a schedule. However, I can spread it out more and shorten the visits a bit. I had already been thinking about that. There was just no reason to bring up a dumb argument that happened three months ago, when she got me alone in her kitchen, other than to be passive aggressive and manipulative out of spite because I was being a bit firm that day when we were all together. 

[Tanaqui]

They never are evil ALL the time. If they were, it wouldn't work. You'd turn 18 all "Let's blow this popsicle joint" and never see them again.

Which is why it's important, if you want to keep visiting some of the time, to set a very clear boundary. "If mom misbehaves, I will leave" is a very good one. It'll keep things from getting so bad that you have no choice but to cut her off entirely.

[Indigo Blue]

8 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

They never are evil ALL the time. If they were, it wouldn't work. You'd turn 18 all "Let's blow this popsicle joint" and never see them again.

Which is why it's important, if you want to keep visiting some of the time, to set a very clear boundary. "If mom misbehaves, I will leave" is a very good one. It'll keep things from getting so bad that you have no choice but to cut her off entirely.

This is true, and I very much appreciate your input. 

[saraha]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

Wow @saraha. I think you handled everything just great. The food thing, wow, you did good. It seems she really has noticed a difference in you and she just doesn’t know what to do with that. 
 

Regarding your sister and your mom wanting her to take pills for some thing,  goodness. My mom does that, too. Not with me, but other people. Also, many years ago when I was in my 30’s, she was obsessed with thinking I was too stressed.  I wasn’t, but she was determined that I was.

“You’re probably stressed.” 

“No. I’m not stressed”

”You can be stressed and not know it.”

”No, I’m really not.”

”Well, it can affect your health and make you sick. And you don’t even realize that you are stressed. How do you know for sure you’re not stressed? You could be and not know.”

“I don’t feel stressed. I feel a normal amount of stress that everyone feels, but I’m not stressed to the point that it’s affecting my health.”

Well, you just very well could be.”

At the next visit, this whole thing would start over again. And again. Before it finally stopped, THAT made me stressed.

Every time I had a cold in those days, she was always so sure it was allergies. Always. I could tell I was actually sick, but it just had to be allergies. Same type of thing. 

And to answer your question, there is no way my mom hasn’t noticed that things are different with me these last few years. Gray rock works really well, but I think that’s probably what has increased that unspoken uneasiness. If everything is going great and you seem to like her and are on her side, she just adores you and thinks you’re great. If you put distance in between you and she senses on some level you are aren’t laughing and being close, that’s a threat to her. Anyone she works with is either praised (they adore her) or she talks horrible about them (they don’t fawn all over her). So that’s what it is. I have some boundaries now, and under the surface she is wondering, but she doesn’t say anything. She doesn’t like it. I’m never mean to her. I don’t lie to her. I don’t play games with her. Those are things she will do to others. So, I don’t fawn over her like I used to, but she really can’t ask what’s wrong, because there is nothing for her to cling to to bring up, as there is really nothing she can point out that I’ve done or not done. It has just happened gradually. But I think this is why things are just kind of weird right now. But yes, gray rock works when I don’t cave in and try to argue back about where restaurants are.

 

 

That stress conversation sounds just like my mom too. it’s like once she gets an idea in her head she just can’t stop until you agree with her and let her tell you what to do about it.

And I second the uneasiness. I think that was my moms problem when I saw her the first time. Christmas was short and tense and then I didn’t see her again until that night and I had an hour in the car to prep myself for nice polite boring gray rock. I think that’s why she kept insisting there was something wrong with me, because she didn’t know what to do with the “new me” who just politely agreed with everything she said and had no opinion on anything what so ever. I also think that with my sister just kind of letting the horrible way my mom treated her go and they are at some sort of normal makes my behavior change just that much more obvious. I think what you said about noticing but having nothing to cling to to bring it up was how my daughter ended up getting involved.

Our people sound so much alike

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

I meant my sister thought the idea that she was depressed was out of left field. Like of all things, depression.

You are right though in that it is my mom being my mom extra. It's like I opened the door a little bit and she immediately started to start something. When she couldn't deny my new boundaries in conversation, she started on my sister. I don't understand what insisting my sister is depressed gets her though.

But it does sound planting those ideas are typical for your mom.   Drama, dependence, helplessness, etc.

what she's doing to your sister is attempting to force her to be "needy" so your mom can "rescue her" and go back to being "needed" and "important".  (she's probably realized she won't get you back in that position, so now she wants your sister there.)   It's particularly sick 

[importswim]

I have a number of people like this in my life, unfortunately. I've decided to just not get into arguments about anything with them and when they double down say "oh you might be right" in a non-committal way (even though I know I'm completely right). I find it makes my life easier and doesn't feed into their drama.