KSera Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, shawthorne44 said: I don't have a medical degree, but I do have a science degree and I can read a study. There are some things that stink to high heaven with recent studies. Like a study on ivermectin that showed early promising results, then is cut short of the planned scope and the summary is that "There isn't enough to data" to say that it works. Well, yeah, because you didn't collect enough data. I have seen that often enough that I now translate "There isn't enough to data", "It probably works but we were hoping to prove that it doesn't" It’s such a crappy time to be a HCW or a scientist, what with everyone accusing them of being out for nefarious purposes rather than trying to help people 😔. So far, the only clearly nefarious ivermectin studies published have been the retracted ones where they falsified the data and duplicated it repeatedly to make the study look like it was helpful when it wasn’t. It looks like projection when legitimate scientists are accused by the Covid-denying, ivermectin miracle-touting group of doing what they have been doing. Edited January 5, 2022 by KSera 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 The whole idea that there is a cheap, safe, widely available, highly effective treatment for covid, but "they" are suppressing the truth and censoring the brave truth-tellers, is predicated on the assumption that the White House, CDC, FDA, and the heads of state and regulatory bodies of nearly every other country on the planet, are all part of a giant conspiracy to make money for pharmaceutical companies (in which they allegedly own massive amounts of stock). If ivermectin is really so effective, why isn't the Chinese government handing out billions of doses instead of locking down entire cities and damaging their economy? Why are African countries begging for vaccines instead of ivermectin? If US hospitals are purposing killing hundreds of thousands of covid patients in order to increase their profits, what's killing covid patients in every other country that does not have private insurance and a for-profit healthcare system? How is it that Fauci, Gates, Biden, and the Clintons are able to control the governments of nearly every country on earth, for their own personal financial gain? None of it is remotely believable, or physically possible, yet millions of Americans, and increasing numbers of gullible people in other countries, have not only willingly bought into a conspiracy theory that makes no sense, they are literally willing to die for those beliefs rather than admit they were wrong. 13 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, Corraleno said: The whole idea that there is a cheap, safe, widely available, highly effective treatment for covid, but "they" are suppressing the truth and censoring the brave truth-tellers, is predicated on the assumption that the White House, CDC, FDA, and the heads of state and regulatory bodies of nearly every other country on the planet, are all part of a giant conspiracy to make money for pharmaceutical companies (in which they allegedly own massive amounts of stock). If ivermectin is really so effective, why isn't the Chinese government handing out billions of doses instead of locking down entire cities and damaging their economy? Why are African countries begging for vaccines instead of ivermectin? If US hospitals are purposing killing hundreds of thousands of covid patients in order to increase their profits, what's killing covid patients in every other country that does not have private insurance and a for-profit healthcare system? How is it that Fauci, Gates, Biden, and the Clintons are able to control the governments of nearly every country on earth, for their own personal financial gain? None of it is remotely believable, or physically possible, yet millions of Americans, and increasing numbers of gullible people in other countries, have not only willingly bought into a conspiracy theory that makes no sense, they are literally willing to die for those beliefs rather than admit they were wrong. Is anyone in this discussion saying any of this? I am pro vaccine, pro MAB, pro paxlovid, pro science. I make bill gates 5g implant jokes with the best of them. So: I think it's possible to believe that there may be some effective, if minimal or placebo effect, properties of using something that is a known anti-inflmmatory without going full bill-gates-is-implanting-us-with-the-sign-of-the-beast. no one here is advocating or has advocated for people guzzling horse paste, or not vaccinating, or whatever other nonsense. so i think the hyperbole and strawmen are unhelpful. no one has mentioned fauci, bill gates, or anything. no one is talking about conspiracies. do people really believe the above stuff? sure. there are a lot of people out there who get sucked into youtube wormholes and never come out. does conspiracy junk bleed into mainstream thought? sure. I think most people just want reliable, helpful information. the fact that even saying out loud that ivm made one feel better during covid gets them put in the category of the above post, shamed, hated, whatever, labled as horse-paste dum-dums.....maybe that makes people feel something is more than a little off about the whole thing. if someone getting ivm from their own doctor after an exam and consultation with said medical professional, why does that make people so angry? it's funny though, because before covid happened, questioning the motives of big pharma and the fda to drive up profits for gain of big ceos who stood to gain millions of dollars if their research trials went well was kinda progressive. or at least it was common in my circles to be anti-capitalist and believe such things. i think such things have even actually happened before. but now it gets you labeled as a conspiracy nut a la the above post. like there can't be a possibility or middle discussion, of yes, the dollars involved are tempting to people, as is the desire to come up with something that really, really works and is cheap to make and very profitable. why does it have to be full conspiracy theory or fully on board with whatever pfizer et al come up with next? it doesn't make sense to me why this is so polarized, but the post above does shed light because I thought this was a pretty good, informative discussion until then. 6 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 5 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said: Is anyone in this discussion saying any of this? I am pro vaccine, pro MAB, pro paxlovid, pro science. I make bill gates 5g implant jokes with the best of them. So: I think it's possible to believe that there may be some effective, if minimal or placebo effect, properties of using something that is a known anti-inflmmatory without going full bill-gates-is-implanting-us-with-the-sign-of-the-beast. no one here is advocating or has advocated for people guzzling horse paste, or not vaccinating, or whatever other nonsense. so i think the hyperbole and strawmen are unhelpful. no one has mentioned fauci, bill gates, or anything. no one is talking about conspiracies. do people really believe the above stuff? sure. there are a lot of people out there who get sucked into youtube wormholes and never come out. does conspiracy junk bleed into mainstream thought? sure. I think most people just want reliable, helpful information. the fact that even saying out loud that ivm made one feel better during covid gets them put in the category of the above post, shamed, hated, whatever, labled as horse-paste dum-dums.....maybe that makes people feel something is more than a little off about the whole thing. if someone getting ivm from their own doctor after an exam and consultation with said medical professional, why does that make people so angry? it's funny though, because before covid happened, questioning the motives of big pharma and the fda to drive up profits for gain of big ceos who stood to gain millions of dollars if their research trials went well was kinda progressive. or at least it was common in my circles to be anti-capitalist and believe such things. i think such things have even actually happened before. but now it gets you labeled as a conspiracy nut a la the above post. like there can't be a possibility or middle discussion, of yes, the dollars involved are tempting to people, as is the desire to come up with something that really, really works and is cheap to make and very profitable. why does it have to be full conspiracy theory or fully on board with whatever pfizer et al come up with next? it doesn't make sense to me why this is so polarized, but the post above does shed light because I thought this was a pretty good, informative discussion until then. She wasn’t directing it towards anyone in this thread. I believe she just made a statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Corraleno said: The whole idea that there is a cheap, safe, widely available, highly effective treatment for covid, but "they" are suppressing the truth and censoring the brave truth-tellers, is predicated on the assumption that the White House, CDC, FDA, and the heads of state and regulatory bodies of nearly every other country on the planet, are all part of a giant conspiracy to make money for pharmaceutical companies (in which they allegedly own massive amounts of stock). If ivermectin is really so effective, why isn't the Chinese government handing out billions of doses instead of locking down entire cities and damaging their economy? Why are African countries begging for vaccines instead of ivermectin? If US hospitals are purposing killing hundreds of thousands of covid patients in order to increase their profits, what's killing covid patients in every other country that does not have private insurance and a for-profit healthcare system? How is it that Fauci, Gates, Biden, and the Clintons are able to control the governments of nearly every country on earth, for their own personal financial gain? None of it is remotely believable, or physically possible, yet millions of Americans, and increasing numbers of gullible people in other countries, have not only willingly bought into a conspiracy theory that makes no sense, they are literally willing to die for those beliefs rather than admit they were wrong. You nailed it! Not to mention accusing 59 million healthcare workers of lying about covid for profit. Edited January 6, 2022 by Faith-manor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, Corraleno said: And the ultimate irony is that ivermectin and HCQ were tested on exactly the same fetal cell line (HEK-293) as the mRNA vaccines which so many of the same people claim to be refusing for "religious reasons." I didn't know this, though I know people, in general, are ignorant about what is and is not tested on fetal cell lines. 7 hours ago, busymama7 said: I agree with this but the people I am talking about got the human form by prescription. It just surprised me because I am pretty sure it is all different doctors and probably pharmacies too. Different doctors/pharmacies, same "directory." https://covid19criticalcare.com/ Same protocol. https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-mask-plus-protocol/ The protocol has changed over time, but it has always had vitamins and such as one of the first lines and as a preventive. I look at the site now and then because it's more sacred than the Bible to many people where I live, and one of the big cheeses listed on the site is a local doctor. Sometimes the things on the lists overlap with mainstream recommendations. For instance, at one point, pulmicort was on the list, and I think I was reading about Pulmicort in reputable places, including via people on here. What kills me is that the conspiracy theorists who rail against doctors not using this protocol will often not even realize that in their ranting, they are displaying their ignorance--pulmicort is the brand name for budensonide, and one ranter talked about how her DH wasn't being given the right treatment because she didn't bother to look into this and see that they are the same (though she definitely wanted other things to be different too). ***ETA: at the same time, I think they were also freaking out about a specific steroid without realizing that what was Rxed was also a steroid--no understanding that perhaps the practitioner was using the best steroid available or choosing a slightly different one due to specific patient concerns. 2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said: But say vitamin D that people are already short on, or vitamin C where the excess just gets ejected, I don't see the harm. Some of these are reported to be suppressed therapeutics already for other conditions in the conspiracy theory community. Vitamin C has been touted as a way to cure sepsis, and it's my understanding that there was some evidence it might be worth a try. Data then didn't bear it out, and I think the same doctor is banging the drum for it for Covid. One of the biggest amplifiers for conspiracy theories in my circles is a woman whose husband died of sepsis. I guess she's long been a conspiracy theorist, but I had no idea until Covid. Her conspiracy bent predates her DH's death. Guess who is one of the biggest pushers in my circles for Vitamin C and this protocol? And she is a deeply spiritual person who is seen as a leader, so if she says something, everyone jumps. She's very well-connected and very, very influential in local churches, homeschool groups, and pro-life circles here. Very. And she has many flying monkeys that will back her right up while all of them cry persecution. Edited January 6, 2022 by kbutton 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 14 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said: think it's possible to believe that there may be some effective, if minimal or placebo effect, properties of using something that is a known anti-inflmmatory without going full bill-gates-is-implanting-us-with-the-sign-of-the-beast. I agree, but I think a number of the things recommended by people who are conspiracy-minded are recycled from previous conspiracies. How many times can Vitamin C be the miracle cure and then be shown not to be the miracle cure? And how many times will the same medical professional push one of those drugs as a treatment for something with the exact same rationale but then not ever have the data to back it up? I think that is part of what is happening here, but I don't have chapter and verse for all of it at my fingertips. I have looked into it enough (not recently) to have identified Vitamin C as one of the recycled ones, and it's from sepsis. As I understand it, Vitamin C was actually given it's day in the sun to be studied for sepsis, and it fell flat on its face. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 9 minutes ago, desertflower said: She wasn’t directing it towards anyone in this thread. I believe she just made a statement. I guess i'm confused. i don't really want to argue about who is saying what, but who else would read it but people in this thread? why bring all of that up in an earnest discussion about the same topic that she's making hyperbole of? I was saying, of her statement, that sure there are people like that but writing off anyone that has a slight tinge of disagreement on the subject as a conspiracy nut is probably not helpful for either the people who are already down the rabbit hole or people who are NOT but simply want helpful info. ---- not related, but i would bet my whole life savings that just as their are vocal anti-vaxxers who have taken the vaccine, there are also vocal, public pro-vaxxer, pro pharma people who got ivm from a doctor when they got covid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said: The general suppression of therapeutics is disturbing. I have no opinion on ivermectin. But it seems that throwing the more things on it that might help and won't hurt would be a good thing. Things like hospitals not allowing vitamins. If we were talking about something that the hospital was already giving and could be overdosed on (like vitamin A), I could understand that. But say vitamin D that people are already short on, or vitamin C where the excess just gets ejected, I don't see the harm. I don't have a medical degree, but I do have a science degree and I can read a study. There are some things that stink to high heaven with recent studies. Like a study on ivermectin that showed early promising results, then is cut short of the planned scope and the summary is that "There isn't enough to data" to say that it works. Well, yeah, because you didn't collect enough data. I have seen that often enough that I now translate "There isn't enough to data", "It probably works but we were hoping to prove that it doesn't" You can have vitamin D toxicosis - I had to cut back because my levels were too high. You need to know levels before and during supplementation. It is not always benign. And given that vitamin C is known to cause bowel irritation, and one of the symptoms of covid is bowel problems it makes sense they don't want people taking high doses of vitamin C. I mean, that's just common sense. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 5 minutes ago, kbutton said: I agree, but I think a number of the things recommended by people who are conspiracy-minded are recycled from previous conspiracies. How many times can Vitamin C be the miracle cure and then be shown not to be the miracle cure? And how many times will the same medical professional push one of those drugs as a treatment for something with the exact same rationale but then not ever have the data to back it up? I think that is part of what is happening here, but I don't have chapter and verse for all of it at my fingertips. I have looked into it enough (not recently) to have identified Vitamin C as one of the recycled ones, and it's from sepsis. As I understand it, Vitamin C was actually given it's day in the sun to be studied for sepsis, and it fell flat on its face. the problem is that I went for an annual checkup just a couple weeks ago and my doctor encouraged me to make sure I was getting enough vitamin d and vitamin C. so it might be easy to conflate, if you're not watching data or studies or researching as most people don't, well, shit, how much do i take if i am getting sick? why not ask for this as treatment? So most people are not going to be bill gates conspiracy nuts but may, just may, end up in a situation where they think they might ask to try something that they think they have heard recommended by a doctor, or heard about on the news either good or bad. and then they get put in the horse-paste idiot category for thinking to take a lot of it, or to do such and such. it's thinking that they all persecute health care workers (but not the ones giving out ivm or vit c treatments?). if one of your friends got ivm and got better, like felt better in 12 hours after feeling flu-bad for days, wouldn't you be slightly curious about it if you felt really sick? maybe outside of this forum, i think most people would. there are people here on this forum who i had a discussion with about how they were going to lie to get a booster shot, or at least omit the truth so they could get one without waiting for the cdc recommendation. people do stuff against mainstream medical recommendations all the time because they think they know better or they think that they are ahead of the curve. the people wanting the shot felt they were justified but many were unwilling to see how everyone thinks they are justified in the moment of doing the thing or not doing it. someone might be scared to have some kind of autoimmune flare that doesn't stop if they get another shot, or scared of the chest pains they had after their initial course. and so they don't get boosted. some people may be more afraid of covid so they lie and get the booster sooner than the recommendation calls for. childhood vax schedules have been studied for years and are occassionally tweaked based on evidence. none of us have that benefit right now, but we all want to be right, of course. most people are not very online. they likely don't even see a doctor except maybe, maybe once a year. they can't read a study. i can't read a study and I consider myself pretty well-read, despite my broken shift key, lol. they hear advice. they get scared. they want to do what they can and have been scared out of going to the hospital because they've heard it's overloaded and don't even try the er, or they shouldn't do anything until they can't breathe well, or are ashamed because they tried a supplement that didn't work, etc. people are complicated and can't be written off as chemtrail flat earthers because they want to try ivm or they know a doctor prescribing it. i know the common sentiment is blame and shame because that's where we are. fed up with people disregarding best practices, hating hcws (???), not obeying th rules....but i don't think that worked as ph policy in the 80s and the aids stuff and that virus was far more controllable than this virus. the actual ph struggles are so, so crazy similar though. just getting people to do the right thing would have stopped the virus, but no one wanted to do the right thing, and everyone insulted everyone in the process. anyway, back to the discussion at hand, I have once again gotten looped in and over posted. every single time! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, ktgrok said: You can have vitamin D toxicosis - I had to cut back because my levels were too high. You need to know levels before and during supplementation. It is not always benign. And given that vitamin C is known to cause bowel irritation, and one of the symptoms of covid is bowel problems it makes sense they don't want people taking high doses of vitamin C. I mean, that's just common sense. Vitamin C can cause kidney stones, which are not without risks of their own (UTI/sepsis, etc.). https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326249#recommended-dosage Since Covid already seems to do a lot of kidney damage in some people, I can see Vitamin C being something they want to stay away from. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 17 minutes ago, ktgrok said: You can have vitamin D toxicosis - I had to cut back because my levels were too high. You need to know levels before and during supplementation. It is not always benign. And given that vitamin C is known to cause bowel irritation, and one of the symptoms of covid is bowel problems it makes sense they don't want people taking high doses of vitamin C. I mean, that's just common sense. 6 minutes ago, kbutton said: Vitamin C can cause kidney stones, which are not without risks of their own (UTI/sepsis, etc.). https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326249#recommended-dosage Since Covid already seems to do a lot of kidney damage in some people, I can see Vitamin C being something they want to stay away from. Any mainstream doc right now will tell you to take vitamin C and vitamin D, and pretty high levels (or at least high sounding numbers) of d if you live in a northern climate and right now is your winter. not one will tell an otherwise healthy person to avoid those supplements, but neither will they tell them to take ultra-high doses without a medical indication either. this whole discussion seems strange because it's like we go the other way of scaring people about vitamins of all things because there is controversial advice floating around there for things like iv vitamin c treatments of high dosages. Yeah, don't take too much of anything. you can overdose on almost anything. but don't scare people off of D and C either. My doc has never once suggested I get my levels of D or C checked before taking a basic D supplement of a certain amount or taking a multi with all of those things. Even on basic bloodwork I get annually, D isn't on there (I just looked). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said: the problem is that I went for an annual checkup just a couple weeks ago and my doctor encouraged me to make sure I was getting enough vitamin d and vitamin C. so it might be easy to conflate, if you're not watching data or studies or researching as most people don't, well, ####, how much do i take if i am getting sick? why not ask for this as treatment? So most people are not going to be bill gates conspiracy nuts but may, just may, end up in a situation where they think they might ask to try something that they think they have heard recommended by a doctor, or heard about on the news either good or bad. and then they get put in the horse-paste idiot category for thinking to take a lot of it, or to do such and such. it's thinking that they all persecute health care workers (but not the ones giving out ivm or vit c treatments?). if one of your friends got ivm and got better, like felt better in 12 hours after feeling flu-bad for days, wouldn't you be slightly curious about it if you felt really sick? maybe outside of this forum, i think most people would.there are people here on this forum who i had a discussion with about how they were going to lie to get a booster shot, or at least omit the truth so they could get one without waiting for the cdc recommendation. people do stuff against mainstream medical recommendations all the time because they think they know better or they think that they are ahead of the curve. the people wanting the shot felt they were justified but many were unwilling to see how everyone thinks they are justified in the moment of doing the thing or not doing it. someone might be scared to have some kind of autoimmune flare that doesn't stop if they get another shot, or scared of the chest pains they had after their initial course. and so they don't get boosted. some people may be more afraid of covid so they lie and get the booster sooner than the recommendation calls for. childhood vax schedules have been studied for years and are occassionally tweaked based on evidence. none of us have that benefit right now, but we all want to be right, of course. most people are not very online. they likely don't even see a doctor except maybe, maybe once a year. they can't read a study. i can't read a study and I consider myself pretty well-read, despite my broken shift key, lol. they hear advice. they get scared. they want to do what they can and have been scared out of going to the hospital because they've heard it's overloaded and don't even try the er, or they shouldn't do anything until they can't breathe well, or are ashamed because they tried a supplement that didn't work, etc. people are complicated and can't be written off as chemtrail flat earthers because they want to try ivm or they know a doctor prescribing it. i know the common sentiment is blame and shame because that's where we are. fed up with people disregarding best practices, hating hcws (???), not obeying th rules....but i don't think that worked as ph policy in the 80s and the aids stuff and that virus was far more controllable than this virus. the actual ph struggles are so, so crazy similar though. just getting people to do the right thing would have stopped the virus, but no one wanted to do the right thing, and everyone insulted everyone in the process. anyway, back to the discussion at hand, I have once again gotten looped in and over posted. every single time! I agree with 90% of this in theory, but not in how it's working out in my world. My DH is a HCW, and he patiently deals with this day in and day out. Right now about 50% of his patients have Covid, and their attitude/information grid runs the gamut. The people I know pushing conspiracies aren't afraid to ask my DH for advice about all kinds of medical issues. They don't ask about this because they are happy with their set of lies. Seriously. They decided based on their friendships with conspiracy-mongers or their politics. I don't think your wrong philosophically, but where I live, there are clear reasons people made their decisions, and it's not that they can't read a scientific study. Many of the people I know pushing this stuff actually have complex medical issues, and some have issues that science hasn't caught up to, and they have found alternative therapies that have helped (most of which have an undercurrent of reducing inflammation and would be good for you anyway, so worth a try). You might be seeing a different crowd. Regarding the bolded, I know what you are talking about. OTOH, I truly believe they are measuring their comfort with the data against their comfort with policy decisions that are based on more than just the data, and I can't say they are wrong in their conclusion even if I am not comfortable with playing fast and loose with facts to get around the guidelines myself. I think that there would be extreme situations in life in which I would feel like I was being ethical and following the spirit of the guidelines, but I still don't think I could be untruthful to accomplish it. I haven't been pushed to that yet. I definitely believe there are times in life where telling the truth to people who aren't after truth due to mental illness, etc. can be counterproductive and actually unethical and even times when the guidelines are being used punitively when the moral imperative is clearly different and not necessarily meant to fall outside the guidelines. I haven't had that happen over healthcare decisions, but I can imagine it's possible and that I would act differently than I am now in the right situation. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachGal Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 47 minutes ago, kbutton said: I agree, but I think a number of the things recommended by people who are conspiracy-minded are recycled from previous conspiracies. How many times can Vitamin C be the miracle cure and then be shown not to be the miracle cure? And how many times will the same medical professional push one of those drugs as a treatment for something with the exact same rationale but then not ever have the data to back it up? I think that is part of what is happening here, but I don't have chapter and verse for all of it at my fingertips. I have looked into it enough (not recently) to have identified Vitamin C as one of the recycled ones, and it's from sepsis. As I understand it, Vitamin C was actually given it's day in the sun to be studied for sepsis, and it fell flat on its face. Oral vitamin C was used in two smaller RCTs a few years ago along with thiamine and a steroid and had decent results in treating cytokine storm. There are not many drugs available that can treat that. I believe that is why they suggested trying it for Covid. Here is one: https://www.luriechildrens.org/en/news-stories/vitamin-c-b1-steroid-combo-linked-to-lower-septic-shock-mortality-in-kids/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said: Any mainstream doc right now will tell you to take vitamin C and vitamin D, and pretty high levels (or at least high sounding numbers) of d if you live in a northern climate and right now is your winter. not one will tell an otherwise healthy person to avoid those supplements, but neither will they tell them to take ultra-high doses without a medical indication either. this whole discussion seems strange because it's like we go the other way of scaring people about vitamins of all things because there is controversial advice floating around there for things like iv vitamin c treatments of high dosages. Yeah, don't take too much of anything. you can overdose on almost anything. but don't scare people off of D and C either. My doc has never once suggested I get my levels of D or C checked before taking a basic D supplement of a certain amount or taking a multi with all of those things. Even on basic bloodwork I get annually, D isn't on there (I just looked). The conspiracy mongers I am familiar with want high doses of C when they get Covid, and I can see a doctor being leery of that if kidney health is at all in question (and often is in serious illness). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, BeachGal said: Oral vitamin C was used in two smaller RCTs a few years ago along with thiamine and a steroid and had decent results in treating cytokine storm. There are not many drugs available that can treat that. I believe that is why they suggested trying it for Covid. Here is one: https://www.luriechildrens.org/en/news-stories/vitamin-c-b1-steroid-combo-linked-to-lower-septic-shock-mortality-in-kids/ It would be nice if they can find and study a combination that does help with sepsis and/or cytokine storm. Truly. The last I read, the high dose C wasn't it, but perhaps they are finding it can be effective when used in a combo. I just know that whoever was banging the drum for it for sepsis seems to have been discredited when it didn't pan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 Quote I don't think your wrong philosophically, but where I live, there are clear reasons people made their decisions, and it's not that they can't read a scientific study. Many of the people I know pushing this stuff actually have complex medical issues, and some have issues that science hasn't caught up to, and they have found alternative therapies that have helped (most of which have an undercurrent of reducing inflammation and would be good for you anyway, so worth a try). You might be seeing a different crowd. No, these are a lot of the people I'm talking about, aside from people who just don't know stuff because they aren't online as much or just don't care as much. this is a great example actually, where they have chronic problems that medicine has not solved for them despite seeing multiple mainstream credentialed docs. This or that treatment has been denied them in the US because it's not FDA approved but it is in europe or wherever. they can't get a trial going because there's no money in it or it would be too expensive if it did work because it's a niche disease or treatment. Or their mainstream doc tells them their problems are psychiatric and then years later they find someone who helps them with the actual physical problem that was easily found, or the doc tries an off-label use of a drug... and that definitely made them cynical about trusting the science or whatever. I'm saying there are far more of those people who have lost faith in credentials because they have been failed by credentials, or they have been shamed by credentials, or they have been actually physically hurt by people with credentials and data and research to back up their decisions. Not that they are in some crazy group that thinks man didn't land on the moon. they are reasonable people looking for some alternative and having a hard time figuring out who to trust in all things medical, not just covid. and it isn't a slam on all hcw's to say that it is HARD to find a good one. I read all the time that elderly and others should have an advocate with them in the hospital all the time to help prevent mistakes or misdiagnosis or even abuse. it's not wrong to be skeptical of how all this goes, I don't think, or to cast everyone into the horse-paste conspiracy lot, is all I was trying to say. most people aren't in either ditch. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachGal Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) @kbutton Are you talking about Marik, maybe? I think he was suggesting trying this combo. I don’t think the logic was bad but I don’t know much about the results of using it or how the actual studies were designed or carried out. Edited January 6, 2022 by BeachGal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said: it's funny though, because before covid happened, questioning the motives of big pharma and the fda to drive up profits for gain of big ceos who stood to gain millions of dollars if their research trials went well was kinda progressive. or at least it was common in my circles to be anti-capitalist and believe such things. i think such things have even actually happened before. but now it gets you labeled as a conspiracy nut a la the above post. like there can't be a possibility or middle discussion, of yes, the dollars involved are tempting to people, as is the desire to come up with something that really, really works and is cheap to make and very profitable. why does it have to be full conspiracy theory or fully on board with whatever pfizer et al come up with next? it doesn't make sense to me why this is so polarized, but the post above does shed light because I thought this was a pretty good, informative discussion until then. It's not a conspiracy theory when there is documented evidence for it (such as the irregularities in the FDA approval process for aspartame). But the claim that Fauci (who works for NIAID, not the FDA or CDC, and has no authority over any drug or vaccine approval) and/or other scientists are purposely suppressing the "truth" about ivermectin in order to help Big Pharma increase profits is a conspiracy theory because it has no basis in reality and is easily disproven by the fact that countries over which Fauci has zero influence or power have come to the same conclusions. It's possible to recognize conspiracy theories for what they are without being "fully on board with whatever Pfizer comes up with next." Dexamethasone is a cheap, widely available generic steroid that is not making megabucks for anyone, but it's used because there is actual scientific evidence that it's effective. Why would dexamethasone be accepted but ivermectin rejected if there was equal scientific evidence for both? And the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost, roughly $4/shot, no one is making megabucks from that. The whole "ivermectin really works but the truth is suppressed by the vaccine industry!" doesn't hold up to even the most basic scrutiny. 7 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said: and it isn't a slam on all hcw's to say that it is HARD to find a good one. I read all the time that elderly and others should have an advocate with them in the hospital all the time to help prevent mistakes or misdiagnosis or even abuse. it's not wrong to be skeptical of how all this goes, I don't think, or to cast everyone into the horse-paste conspiracy lot, is all I was trying to say. most people aren't in either ditch. See, where I am, this line of thinking is the banana peel that put them in the ditch, but they don't see that they could've kept these same concerns and not used it as a slippery slope. It's about knowing where your limits are--at one point, no matter your philosophy, do you say, "Wait a minute, have I gone off the cliff?" Lots of people do not have that failsafe. The originator of this thread has talked about having limits--things that would make you stop and check your bias, though I don't remember her phrasing. People here are very, very much in the ditch. Some are stuck and some are playing in it and choosing not to hop back out. They are doing it for political reasons and due to influencers they trust that they don't realize are conspiratorial. They see that the person is pro-life, a Christian, a fellow homeschooler (or whatever), and has the same political bent, and they throw out all reason. I fit all of those same criteria, but these people haven't known me as long, and they don't like that I'm pushing back. They want full agreement, not friendly skepticism and critical thinking. (ETA: I am conservative, but not in the way that is currently embraced, and these folks were not that kind of conservative until recently either! I saw a definitive fork in the road, and they said they could take that fork and still end up in the same place. They aren't the same people anymore now.) People are getting what they want, and I don't feel sorry for them. I just don't. They want cut and dry in a situation that is not so. They want the pandemic to be over when they feel like they can't handle it anymore or are tired of changing behavior (or had their politics challenged). For most people, this is not about reason even when it looks like it could be. The ones that truly are middle of the road are there because they're cognitive filter says, "extremes are not reasonable." This usually works, but pandemics are extreme by definition. In addition, they feel pulled between varying loyalties that aren't factual. But they don't realize that the conspiracy theorists got there early, camped out, and are so extreme that it changed even what middle of the road looks like in the way that one bad answer on a four question quiz is very different from one bad answer on a 100 question quiz. The anti-vax people got there ahead of time too. In fact, they were planting information the minute there were shut-downs. I think a lot of normal people absorbed that and didn't realize where it came from. I was seeing crazy crap asap and wondering where it came from, but I hadn't taken screen shots, so I couldn't point this out later and connect the dots for people. If they understood that they've been drip, drip, dripped on by bad actors and see that the manipulators were waiting for their moment in the sun, I think they could be made to feel less conflicted and sever some of the ill thought out loyalties to see that the conspiracies are a bigger outlier than an inconsistent message. Edited January 6, 2022 by kbutton 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 30 minutes ago, BeachGal said: @kbutton Are you talking about Marik, maybe? I think he was suggesting trying this combo. I don’t think the logic was bad but I don’t know much about the results of using it or how the actual studies were designed or carried out. I think so! Someone else would be more qualified to analyze if he was thrown under the bus, but it sure seemed like he was published in reputable places initially and given his due at the beginning. Sepsis is high stakes. I imagine treatments might require a higher evidentiary bar to become mainstream because it's already so fraught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCB Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 Just for the record, where I work we give Covid patients Vit D, Vit C and zinc routinely if not contra indicated for some reason. 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, kbutton said: Different doctors/pharmacies, same "directory." https://covid19criticalcare.com/ Same protocol. https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-mask-plus-protocol/ The protocol has changed over time, but it has always had vitamins and such as one of the first lines and as a preventive. I look at the site now and then because it's more sacred than the Bible to many people where I live, and one of the big cheeses listed on the site is a local doctor. Do they know that the journal retracted Pierre Kory's paper due to false data? He claimed that the mortality rate for patients using his MATH+ protocol was 6%, vs 15-32% in those who did not receive the protocol. The hospital whose data he used stated that this was not accurate and that the mortality rate for those who received all four components of the MATH+ protocol was actually 28%. Of course they may just insist that the evil greedy hospital was paid to discredit him or something, but if any of the people you know might be persuaded by facts, here's a link: https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachGal Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 8 minutes ago, kbutton said: I think so! Someone else would be more qualified to analyze if he was thrown under the bus, but it sure seemed like he was published in reputable places initially and given his due at the beginning. Sepsis is high stakes. I imagine treatments might require a higher evidentiary bar to become mainstream because it's already so fraught. I don’t know either but I believe he was trying the combo and I don’t think it was working. Covid is doing such weird damage. It’s hard to figure out what will help. What they’ve managed to do in just two years is truly impressive! My hat is off to the researchers and HCWs. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 13 minutes ago, kbutton said: I think so! Someone else would be more qualified to analyze if he was thrown under the bus, but it sure seemed like he was published in reputable places initially and given his due at the beginning. Sepsis is high stakes. I imagine treatments might require a higher evidentiary bar to become mainstream because it's already so fraught. FWIW, Marik was a coauthor on the Kory paper that was just retracted for false data. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Corraleno said: Do they know that the journal retracted Pierre Kory's paper due to false data? He claimed that the mortality rate for patients using his MATH+ protocol was 6%, vs 15-32% in those who did not receive the protocol. The hospital whose data he used stated that this was not accurate and that the mortality rate for those who received all four components of the MATH+ protocol was actually 28%. Of course they may just insist that the evil greedy hospital was paid to discredit him or something, but if any of the people you know might be persuaded by facts, here's a link: https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/09/bad-math-covid-treatment-paper-by-pierre-kory-retracted-for-flawed-results/ Ooh, thanks! I can post it to social media, but I doubt I can be targeted in any discussion. I am persona non grata. At this point, it's like a Hail Mary to post something, though a few people who never lost their minds (mostly people not in my local social circle that I know some other way) feel like they are less crazy and are happy I posted. But that's preaching the choir, lol! ETA: It's posted. Would like 🍿, but I bet I'll get nothin'. Still feels good to post some truth. 12 minutes ago, Corraleno said: FWIW, Marik was a coauthor on the Kory paper that was just retracted for false data. I did smell a rat! Always nice to know for sure. 🤪🤣😁 Edited January 6, 2022 by kbutton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 31 minutes ago, TCB said: Just for the record, where I work we give Covid patients Vit D, Vit C and zinc routinely if not contra indicated for some reason. Can I ask what the contraindications are? My guesses are really conjecture, but it would be nice to know what some real examples are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCB Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 minutes ago, kbutton said: Can I ask what the contraindications are? My guesses are really conjecture, but it would be nice to know what some real examples are. To be honest I’m not sure and I don’t think there are many. In ICU it is usually something like they can’t have anything at all PO because of an ileus or a bleed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acadie Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, TCB said: Just for the record, where I work we give Covid patients Vit D, Vit C and zinc routinely if not contra indicated for some reason. I'm not currently practicing as an RN, but I was going to say something similar. The idea that nutritional supplementation must be either a miracle cure or based in conspiracy doesn't reflect reality. Hospitalized patients with a whole host of diagnoses, from infections to cardiac issues are given vitamins and minerals to support their healing and recovery. Patients whose bloodwork shows a deficiency of specific vitamins or minerals are given even more targeted supplements. Megadoses of various vitamins and minerals can cause serious problems, particularly in certain patients. It would be a dream if massive doses of Vitamins D or C or whatever were a miracle cure for everything, but human nutritional needs and physiology are much more complex than that. Nutrition is a really important part of the puzzle, just like good hydration and sleep, and mainstream medicine definitely underestimates the healing potential of all three. But there's also a lot of dangerous quackery out there, and oversimplification and absolutism often give away the quacks. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, TCB said: Just for the record, where I work we give Covid patients Vit D, Vit C and zinc routinely if not contra indicated for some reason. The treatment that some people are demanding, the so-called "MATH+ Protocol" pushed by Pierre Kory, calls for up to 25 grams of vitamin C intravenously twice a day "if in ICU and not improving." When people ask "what's wrong with giving patients some vitamin C if they think it will help, it can't hurt..." that is not what patients are harassing HCWs about or suing hospitals over. They want the specific protocol, including ivermectin and IV vitamin C, that Kory falsely claimed reduced mortality by 75% in the now retracted paper. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ting Tang Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 hours ago, kbutton said: See, where I am, this line of thinking is the banana peel that put them in the ditch, but they don't see that they could've kept these same concerns and not used it as a slippery slope. It's about knowing where your limits are--at one point, no matter your philosophy, do you say, "Wait a minute, have I gone off the cliff?" Lots of people do not have that failsafe. The originator of this thread has talked about having limits--things that would make you stop and check your bias, though I don't remember her phrasing. People here are very, very much in the ditch. Some are stuck and some are playing in it and choosing not to hop back out. They are doing it for political reasons and due to influencers they trust that they don't realize are conspiratorial. They see that the person is pro-life, a Christian, a fellow homeschooler (or whatever), and has the same political bent, and they throw out all reason. I fit all of those same criteria, but these people haven't known me as long, and they don't like that I'm pushing back. They want full agreement, not friendly skepticism and critical thinking. (ETA: I am conservative, but not in the way that is currently embraced, and these folks were not that kind of conservative until recently either! I saw a definitive fork in the road, and they said they could take that fork and still end up in the same place. They aren't the same people anymore now.) People are getting what they want, and I don't feel sorry for them. I just don't. They want cut and dry in a situation that is not so. They want the pandemic to be over when they feel like they can't handle it anymore or are tired of changing behavior (or had their politics challenged). For most people, this is not about reason even when it looks like it could be. The ones that truly are middle of the road are there because they're cognitive filter says, "extremes are not reasonable." This usually works, but pandemics are extreme by definition. In addition, they feel pulled between varying loyalties that aren't factual. But they don't realize that the conspiracy theorists got there early, camped out, and are so extreme that it changed even what middle of the road looks like in the way that one bad answer on a four question quiz is very different from one bad answer on a 100 question quiz. The anti-vax people got there ahead of time too. In fact, they were planting information the minute there were shut-downs. I think a lot of normal people absorbed that and didn't realize where it came from. I was seeing crazy crap asap and wondering where it came from, but I hadn't taken screen shots, so I couldn't point this out later and connect the dots for people. If they understood that they've been drip, drip, dripped on by bad actors and see that the manipulators were waiting for their moment in the sun, I think they could be made to feel less conflicted and sever some of the ill thought out loyalties to see that the conspiracies are a bigger outlier than an inconsistent message. It’s rough being a Covid-conscious conservative. I had a homeschooler tell me no one with a pro life stance would take a vaccine. She went on to further shame medical, science driven cancer treatments and claimed natural cures were best. My husband has gotten on the train a bit. I see glimmers if hope, but he will still praise some comments I find less than desirable… I can’t get over the disregard for life from the pro-life crowd, justifying the deaths of certain people. I guess I’m not really a conservative in some regards. Oh well! Lol 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 hours ago, Corraleno said: It's not a conspiracy theory when there is documented evidence for it (such as the irregularities in the FDA approval process for aspartame). But the claim that Fauci (who works for NIAID, not the FDA or CDC, and has no authority over any drug or vaccine approval) and/or other scientists are purposely suppressing the "truth" about ivermectin in order to help Big Pharma increase profits is a conspiracy theory because it has no basis in reality and is easily disproven by the fact that countries over which Fauci has zero influence or power have come to the same conclusions. It's possible to recognize conspiracy theories for what they are without being "fully on board with whatever Pfizer comes up with next." Dexamethasone is a cheap, widely available generic steroid that is not making megabucks for anyone, but it's used because there is actual scientific evidence that it's effective. Why would dexamethasone be accepted but ivermectin rejected if there was equal scientific evidence for both? And the AZ vaccine is being sold at cost, roughly $4/shot, no one is making megabucks from that. The whole "ivermectin really works but the truth is suppressed by the vaccine industry!" doesn't hold up to even the most basic scrutiny. But who are you addressing here with the bolded stuff?? You started down this conspiracy line as if to rebut someone, no quotes, and it's not even what anyone here was talking about. i said I knew 3 people personally who tried it, none of them are those people. they got their shots. they don't care about bill gates or fauci or any of that. it can be that doctors see some efficacy in their practice, maybe placebo, maybe there is some sort of selection bias, maybe it's like giving out antibiotics for a cold, dumb and destructive in the long run but not likely harmful to an individual and they will probably get better anyway. who knows? but no here that i can see is saying any of this but it seems to be a main conversation point for you and i can't figure it out. you think all use of ivm or vitamin c or whatever comes down to people who believe this stuff and you want to make it into this idea that only crazy people are doing this. perhaps that is not the case. i lived in a border state for some time and people would routinely go down to mexico to get antibiotics to have in the medicine cabinets for ANYTHING. obviously very silly, but not a conspiracy or a response to a conspiracy, just how people grew up in some places. (i don't recommend trying to talk someone out of doing this because science. it is not about that!) what i'm saying is all of this doesn't have to be some grand conspiracy theory about fauci supressing the truth so people want their drugs. it could just be how medicine and people have worked for long before covid. i can give plenty of stories from my own life where doctors have messed up or given me bad (sometimes wrong!) advice or tried to treat using old school practices that I happened to know are out of date. ivm doesn't seem that different if it gets popular in certain circles, even with doctors. your example of dexamethasone is perfect. obviously there isn't some crazy conspiracy going on to only use expensive stuff. as far as I've heard, remdesvir is very expensive but "they" found it not that effective either. that's obviously not what's going on. when i said "fully on board with whatever pfizer comes up with" i meant that there is a not small group of people i can find on social media (ok, just as bad as reddit) who do not have any questions whatsoever about the vaccine but worry unreasonably about other people taking ivm. they absolutely write about the horse-paste eaters, meanwhile the ivm people are making fun of them for trying to get inline for their 4th booster already. it is absolutely a totally polarized, nasty way of framing anyone on any issue from any side. each side has contempt they feel is justified. again, there are extreme positions that people hold. i get it. i don' think that is where the majority of people fall even if the loudest online make us think otherwise. i have a small sample size for a family. i have one on the crazy conspiracy end as far as fauci and bill gates goes, but that was true long before all covid with other things. most people are in the middle...pro vaccine initially and wary of boosters every 4-6 months as an idea, people who really wanted mandates, people who didn't but were pro-shot, people who got the shot for themselves but were wary for their kids, and on and on. one or two trying to get boosters faster than they are allowed. just try not to get into a bubble where everyone who does x also must believe crazy conspiracy y or is all in for big pharma because they want shots, or whatever. usually people are more complex. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 36 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said: But who are you addressing here with the bolded stuff?? You started down this conspiracy line as if to rebut someone, no quotes, and it's not even what anyone here was talking about. i said I knew 3 people personally who tried it, none of them are those people. they got their shots. they don't care about bill gates or fauci or any of that. I didn't see any caveats on this thread saying we're only allowed to directly reply to other people's posts and cannot express our own opinions or discuss the larger issues involved. The OP asked if there was any new data on the efficacy of ivermectin. My point is that the properly run RCTs on ivermectin show no benefit, and the papers that claimed to show the biggest benefit, plus the meta analysis that heavily relied on them, were based on data that was at best inaccurate and at worst outright falsified. The reason it is being prescribed by a very small number of doctors, and demanded by a large number of patients (many of whom are resorting to horse paste because their doctor won't prescribe it), is because of a false narrative that is politically motivated, not scientifically sound. 36 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said: what i'm saying is all of this doesn't have to be some grand conspiracy theory about fauci supressing the truth so people want their drugs. it could just be how medicine and people have worked for long before covid. i can give plenty of stories from my own life where doctors have messed up or given me bad (sometimes wrong!) advice or tried to treat using old school practices that I happened to know are out of date. ivm doesn't seem that different if it gets popular in certain circles, even with doctors. your example of dexamethasone is perfect. obviously there isn't some crazy conspiracy going on to only use expensive stuff. as far as I've heard, remdesvir is very expensive but "they" found it not that effective either. that's obviously not what's going on. If the only issue with ivermectin was that a few people here and there were taking an ineffective drug while being carefully monitored by their GP, it wouldn't be a problem. Maybe that's what you see locally, so it seems totally benign to you. But a lot of people really are buying and ingesting horse wormer, and whether they are self-medicating with something they bought at Tractor Supply because they fell into a black hole of conspiracy theories or just because their neighbor posted on FB that hospitals are killing people and ivermectin cures covid, is irrelevant to the actual outcome. People are dying because they think ivermectin and vitamins are safer and more effective than getting proper medical care so they put off going to the hospital until it's too late. People are harassing HCWs and suing hospitals demanding that their loved ones be given treatments that don't work. That may be no biggie to you, but it bugs the shit out of me and a lot of other people — especially HCWs who have to deal with it every day, and people whose loved ones are getting seriously ill and dying because they believed the lies. 10 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawthorne44 Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 13 hours ago, KSera said: It’s such a crappy time to be a HCW or a scientist, what with everyone accusing them of being out for nefarious purposes rather than trying to help people 😔. It isn't just with this. Anyone else old enough to remember when the hole in the ozone layer was going to kill us all? Dupont was funding many of the studies, particularly the first ones. The first scientists went to Dupont and said, "Our early data shows that it might be caused by hairspray and Freon." They were shocked when Dupont said, "Full speed ahead", because that was so unusual. So, they went full speed ahead talking about how amazing the Dupont company was. Then there were many other studies done and scientists knew that 'Freon is causing the ozone hole' was an acceptable answer. Important point is how shocked the scientists were. Now there is a theory that Dupont orchestrated the whole thing to get Freon banned since they were losing the patent. What those first scientists were expecting is what happened to some Duke scientists. HUD wanted a study of homeless people to nail down what percentage were vets. HUD wanted some of the VA money. It was supposed to be a 3-year long study. They were finding documentation to prove when the homeless said they were vets. First year they found around 0.1%. The percentage that claimed it, but really weren't was much higher. Study was cancelled. Diet studies are filled manipulated data. This is allowed as long as you can give a justification. With diet studies they pick the diseases that the skinny people had and toss those. Problem is, the same scientist will toss A, B and C in one study, keeping D, E and F. Then in another study those same scientists do the reverse. And, it isn't just tossing all with a certain disease. I remember in that big one that used nurses. The skinny smoker that got lung cancer was tossed since that was from smoking, and the fat smoker with lung cancer was kept since that was obviously from being fat. 🙄 Sometimes the tossed data is the interesting part. There have been a great many studies about how messed up kids are long-term when the mom is severely depressed. A meta-study of those showed that all of them had tossed out 10% of the data saying, "Well, I guess the mom wasn't that depressed after all." It was consistent. So, then that led to studies of those kids. Then there is the problem of publication. They need to publish, that is where the status, money and often continued employment comes from. If your results are null, meaning you didn't prove anything, you won't be published. That meant you just wasted your time, so it is tempting to tweak the data to show a tiny but statistically relevant relationship. This is such a known problem that some groups have set up pre-venting of studies. If the methodology is approved beforehand and then followed, publication is guaranteed regardless of the results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El... Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 11 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said: It isn't just with this. Anyone else old enough to remember when the hole in the ozone layer was going to kill us all? Dupont was funding many of the studies, particularly the first ones. The first scientists went to Dupont and said, "Our early data shows that it might be caused by hairspray and Freon." They were shocked when Dupont said, "Full speed ahead", because that was so unusual. So, they went full speed ahead talking about how amazing the Dupont company was. Then there were many other studies done and scientists knew that 'Freon is causing the ozone hole' was an acceptable answer. Important point is how shocked the scientists were. Now there is a theory that Dupont orchestrated the whole thing to get Freon banned since they were losing the patent. What those first scientists were expecting is what happened to some Duke scientists. HUD wanted a study of homeless people to nail down what percentage were vets. HUD wanted some of the VA money. It was supposed to be a 3-year long study. They were finding documentation to prove when the homeless said they were vets. First year they found around 0.1%. The percentage that claimed it, but really weren't was much higher. Study was cancelled. Diet studies are filled manipulated data. This is allowed as long as you can give a justification. With diet studies they pick the diseases that the skinny people had and toss those. Problem is, the same scientist will toss A, B and C in one study, keeping D, E and F. Then in another study those same scientists do the reverse. And, it isn't just tossing all with a certain disease. I remember in that big one that used nurses. The skinny smoker that got lung cancer was tossed since that was from smoking, and the fat smoker with lung cancer was kept since that was obviously from being fat. 🙄 Sometimes the tossed data is the interesting part. There have been a great many studies about how messed up kids are long-term when the mom is severely depressed. A meta-study of those showed that all of them had tossed out 10% of the data saying, "Well, I guess the mom wasn't that depressed after all." It was consistent. So, then that led to studies of those kids. Then there is the problem of publication. They need to publish, that is where the status, money and often continued employment comes from. If your results are null, meaning you didn't prove anything, you won't be published. That meant you just wasted your time, so it is tempting to tweak the data to show a tiny but statistically relevant relationship. This is such a known problem that some groups have set up pre-venting of studies. If the methodology is approved beforehand and then followed, publication is guaranteed regardless of the results. Those are examples of bad scientific practices. They should lead to reform, not repudiation of the scientific process. I'm not saying that is your meaning; I'm not sure what you're saying. What do you think should be done to correct these issues? How should a society hold scientific communities to a high standard for accurate, open research results? In fact, I think many reforms have already taken place in response to these issues. I think the best, first step is an educated, informed, critical public. May we be them, may we raise them, right? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 8 hours ago, Corraleno said: I didn't see any caveats on this thread saying we're only allowed to directly reply to other people's posts and cannot express our own opinions or discuss the larger issues involved. The OP asked if there was any new data on the efficacy of ivermectin. My point is that the properly run RCTs on ivermectin show no benefit, and the papers that claimed to show the biggest benefit, plus the meta analysis that heavily relied on them, were based on data that was at best inaccurate and at worst outright falsified. The reason it is being prescribed by a very small number of doctors, and demanded by a large number of patients (many of whom are resorting to horse paste because their doctor won't prescribe it), is because of a false narrative that is politically motivated, not scientifically sound. If the only issue with ivermectin was that a few people here and there were taking an ineffective drug while being carefully monitored by their GP, it wouldn't be a problem. Maybe that's what you see locally, so it seems totally benign to you. But a lot of people really are buying and ingesting horse wormer, and whether they are self-medicating with something they bought at Tractor Supply because they fell into a black hole of conspiracy theories or just because their neighbor posted on FB that hospitals are killing people and ivermectin cures covid, is irrelevant to the actual outcome. People are dying because they think ivermectin and vitamins are safer and more effective than getting proper medical care so they put off going to the hospital until it's too late. People are harassing HCWs and suing hospitals demanding that their loved ones be given treatments that don't work. That may be no biggie to you, but it bugs the shit out of me and a lot of other people — especially HCWs who have to deal with it every day, and people whose loved ones are getting seriously ill and dying because they believed the lies. to the first bolded given that the only stat you posted to this thread about this happening was at best inaccurate and revealed less than a dozen people doing this and only one person who needed medical attention because of it in one entire state, do you have some other source of data to show the extent of this problem. as in actual numbers of people going to the hospital or dying of this? do you not think that ingesting cuckoo old wives tale remedies was a deal before covid? since that stat you posted and believed up until this thread was inaccurate, does it change your view to think maybe you got a hyperbolic idea of how often this is actually happening from some other sources that led you to believe 70% of PC calls in one month in one state were due to this problem when that was not the case? do you not expect that people in many times and many places sell and buy snake oil? have you seen what has been sold on drugstore shelves long before covid was a thing as far as supplements, homeopathy, etc.? again, to make this into politics and totally other those who might be looking for something else to help them, i think, greatly excaerbates the problem of polarization and othering. also, to the last bolded, our hospitals and doctors have told people not to come to the hospital unless they are having trouble breathing, so i don't know what you mean by waiting until its too late. early treatment is still very scarce and fairly new in my locale. people try the other stuff because they don't want to have to go to the hospital and strain the system that they are told is near a breaking point. also do you think a culture of shaming people maybe might make them wary of seeing a doctor if they have an issue and they have tried vitamins or staying home too long to kick the disease? maybe that backfires if they are regarded as ignorant conspiracy theorists who eat horse paste? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachGal Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 Trust and confidence erode when revelations surrounding events, such as the opioid crisis, begin to unfold; or faulty science dictates harmful guidelines — example: simple carbs and trans fats are healthy. People feel duped and become cynical. I’m not suggesting they should be distrustful but it does color their perception. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longtime Lurker Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 13 hours ago, kbutton said: See, where I am, this line of thinking is the banana peel that put them in the ditch, but they don't see that they could've kept these same concerns and not used it as a slippery slope. It's about knowing where your limits are--at one point, no matter your philosophy, do you say, "Wait a minute, have I gone off the cliff?" Lots of people do not have that failsafe. The originator of this thread has talked about having limits--things that would make you stop and check your bias, though I don't remember her phrasing. People here are very, very much in the ditch. Some are stuck and some are playing in it and choosing not to hop back out. They are doing it for political reasons and due to influencers they trust that they don't realize are conspiratorial. They see that the person is pro-life, a Christian, a fellow homeschooler (or whatever), and has the same political bent, and they throw out all reason. I fit all of those same criteria, but these people haven't known me as long, and they don't like that I'm pushing back. They want full agreement, not friendly skepticism and critical thinking. (ETA: I am conservative, but not in the way that is currently embraced, and these folks were not that kind of conservative until recently either! I saw a definitive fork in the road, and they said they could take that fork and still end up in the same place. They aren't the same people anymore now.) People are getting what they want, and I don't feel sorry for them. I just don't. They want cut and dry in a situation that is not so. They want the pandemic to be over when they feel like they can't handle it anymore or are tired of changing behavior (or had their politics challenged). For most people, this is not about reason even when it looks like it could be. The ones that truly are middle of the road are there because they're cognitive filter says, "extremes are not reasonable." This usually works, but pandemics are extreme by definition. In addition, they feel pulled between varying loyalties that aren't factual. But they don't realize that the conspiracy theorists got there early, camped out, and are so extreme that it changed even what middle of the road looks like in the way that one bad answer on a four question quiz is very different from one bad answer on a 100 question quiz. The anti-vax people got there ahead of time too. In fact, they were planting information the minute there were shut-downs. I think a lot of normal people absorbed that and didn't realize where it came from. I was seeing crazy crap asap and wondering where it came from, but I hadn't taken screen shots, so I couldn't point this out later and connect the dots for people. If they understood that they've been drip, drip, dripped on by bad actors and see that the manipulators were waiting for their moment in the sun, I think they could be made to feel less conflicted and sever some of the ill thought out loyalties to see that the conspiracies are a bigger outlier than an inconsistent message. I really appreciate your posts. Thanks for taking the time to type all this out! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faith-manor Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 10 hours ago, Corraleno said: I didn't see any caveats on this thread saying we're only allowed to directly reply to other people's posts and cannot express our own opinions or discuss the larger issues involved. The OP asked if there was any new data on the efficacy of ivermectin. My point is that the properly run RCTs on ivermectin show no benefit, and the papers that claimed to show the biggest benefit, plus the meta analysis that heavily relied on them, were based on data that was at best inaccurate and at worst outright falsified. The reason it is being prescribed by a very small number of doctors, and demanded by a large number of patients (many of whom are resorting to horse paste because their doctor won't prescribe it), is because of a false narrative that is politically motivated, not scientifically sound. If the only issue with ivermectin was that a few people here and there were taking an ineffective drug while being carefully monitored by their GP, it wouldn't be a problem. Maybe that's what you see locally, so it seems totally benign to you. But a lot of people really are buying and ingesting horse wormer, and whether they are self-medicating with something they bought at Tractor Supply because they fell into a black hole of conspiracy theories or just because their neighbor posted on FB that hospitals are killing people and ivermectin cures covid, is irrelevant to the actual outcome. People are dying because they think ivermectin and vitamins are safer and more effective than getting proper medical care so they put off going to the hospital until it's too late. People are harassing HCWs and suing hospitals demanding that their loved ones be given treatments that don't work. That may be no biggie to you, but it bugs the shit out of me and a lot of other people — especially HCWs who have to deal with it every day, and people whose loved ones are getting seriously ill and dying because they believed the lies. Thank you!!!!this. All of this, and is exactly what is happening in my area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilingfan Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted I think the basic idea is that it works great for covid if you have a parasitic worm infestation cocurrently, and isn't as effective if you do not (in part because if you do have a worm problem, you can't use steroids for covid without getting rid of the worms first, and steroids are helpful). 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 16 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said: I guess i'm confused. i don't really want to argue about who is saying what, but who else would read it but people in this thread? why bring all of that up in an earnest discussion about the same topic that she's making hyperbole of? I was saying, of her statement, that sure there are people like that but writing off anyone that has a slight tinge of disagreement on the subject as a conspiracy nut is probably not helpful for either the people who are already down the rabbit hole or people who are NOT but simply want helpful info. ---- not related, but i would bet my whole life savings that just as their are vocal anti-vaxxers who have taken the vaccine, there are also vocal, public pro-vaxxer, pro pharma people who got ivm from a doctor when they got covid. She's talking about some people in general. No one specific in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 53 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said: to the first bolded given that the only stat you posted to this thread about this happening was at best inaccurate and revealed less than a dozen people doing this and only one person who needed medical attention because of it in one entire state, do you have some other source of data to show the extent of this problem. as in actual numbers of people going to the hospital or dying of this? do you not think that ingesting cuckoo old wives tale remedies was a deal before covid? since that stat you posted and believed up until this thread was inaccurate, does it change your view to think maybe you got a hyperbolic idea of how often this is actually happening from some other sources that led you to believe 70% of PC calls in one month in one state were due to this problem when that was not the case? do you not expect that people in many times and many places sell and buy snake oil? have you seen what has been sold on drugstore shelves long before covid was a thing as far as supplements, homeopathy, etc.? again, to make this into politics and totally other those who might be looking for something else to help them, i think, greatly excaerbates the problem of polarization and othering. also, to the last bolded, our hospitals and doctors have told people not to come to the hospital unless they are having trouble breathing, so i don't know what you mean by waiting until its too late. early treatment is still very scarce and fairly new in my locale. people try the other stuff because they don't want to have to go to the hospital and strain the system that they are told is near a breaking point. also do you think a culture of shaming people maybe might make them wary of seeing a doctor if they have an issue and they have tried vitamins or staying home too long to kick the disease? maybe that backfires if they are regarded as ignorant conspiracy theorists who eat horse paste? I was "led to believe" the 70% stat from MS because the original statement they released said "At least 70% of the recent calls have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers," and that is how it was reported by every major media outlet that covered it. The Poison Center later issued a "clarification" that they meant 70% of ivermectin calls were for animal formulations, not that 70% of all calls were. So no, it was not my personal bias that led me to a "hyperbolic" interpretation of the numbers. NPR reported that the National Poison Data System logged a total of 459 calls for ivermectin poisoning in August, and a total of 1,143 between January and August. Interview with the Associate Director of the Oregon Poison Center, who reported 21 calls in August for ivermectin poisoning taken for covid. At least 17 had taken animal medication, 6 were hospitalized, 4 in ICU. "Among those hospitalized, gastrointestinal distress, confusion, ataxia, weakness, low blood pressure and seizures were the most common adverse side effects. For those not hospitalized, the most common symptoms were gastrointestinal distress, dizziness, confusion, vision symptoms and rash." This is not a benign drug. And those are just the people who called Poison Control; obviously the number of people buying and taking it is much larger than that. There have been many many articles and news stories, like this one in the Guardian, about farm supply stores having to restrict sales because so many people were buying it for covid. I do not understand the argument that people have always taken ineffective remedies, so it's NBD that this particular ineffective drug is being widely touted as a preventative or cure by people like the talking heads on a certain "news" channel and members of the US Congress. I know it's affecting HCWs because I've read first-hand accounts from HCWs begging people to stop and expressing how frustrated and angry they are. I have read posts from people who explicitly said they did not want to go to the hospital because they know hospitals are killing people and wanted to stay at home and self-medicate instead; the saddest one was a single dad who chronicled his decline at home and then died shortly after he was finally admitted to the hospital. I've seen posts from people who checked themselves out of hospital AMA because the hospital wouldn't give them the "treatment" they wanted, and posts from people who are angry their loved ones died because they believed ivermectin works and vaccines don't. I've read posts from people who happily report their harassment of HCWs, demanding access to ivermectin and other "protocols," who clearly see themselves as brave fighters against a corrupt system instead of ignorant idiots making life more difficult for the exhausted and overworked staff who are trying to save their loved ones. The suggestion that if we just don't talk about the political motivation for these lies, and the very real impact they are having on people, then people won't be so polarized, is similar to the claim that if we just don't talk about racism so much then people won't be so polarized by race. It doesn't work that way. Pretending that this stuff isn't happening, or that it's NBD because it's just a few people taking a safe effective drug which doesn't cause any real harm, ignores the larger context. The reason there has been so much hype about ivermectin and HCQ is that the availability of a cheap, effective cure for covid is critical to maintaining the claim that there's no justification for masks or lockdowns or vaccines, because you can just take this cheap drug and you'll be fine. The Venn diagram of people who believe that ivermectin cures covid and people who refuse to mask or vaccinate or take precautions isn't a perfect circle but there is a huge overlap there. There are people in positions of influence, in politics and the media, who are exploiting the ignorance and gullibility of people for their own ends, and that should be called out, not brushed off in the vain hope that ignoring their malign efforts will somehow make the polarization disappear. 4 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 30 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted I think the basic idea is that it works great for covid if you have a parasitic worm infestation cocurrently, and isn't as effective if you do not (in part because if you do have a worm problem, you can't use steroids for covid without getting rid of the worms first, and steroids are helpful). I don't have a chance to read the article right now, but it sounds like it's saying that, basically, the dewormer works as a dewormer. And realistically, most people in the US probably aren't filled with worms, so... yeah. I don't think that's what most of the ivermectin supporters believe. I think they believe that the ivermectin kills Covid. I don't think they are thinking of worm infestations at all. I think they believe that if they get Covid, ivermectin will cure them. And a lot of those people think they can take the horse dewormer from the feed store and it will work the same way as the prescription-only human ivermectin, so there's no need to see a doctor if they think they have Covid. Just pop open the box of horse dewormer and voila, they'll be better in no time. 😞 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilingfan Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 But they believe that for a pretty good reason: there are some very good studies that say Ivermectin works, and the establishment and the media said no, it doesn't work (and they don't necessarily trust the establishment to start with). It's just that the reason ivermectin works (and the reason the studies were supportive in the places they were) is because of a condition that doesn't apply often to Americans, so it's useless here. If instead the establishment or the media had said well, there are some decent studies showing ivermectin is effective, let's look into that (and then determined the a priori conclusion, that it is a drug for worms and therefore works for worms, was correct), I think there would be less inclination to take ivermectin if you don't have worms. In fact, I think the media or the science establishment could do that NOW and still have some effect, although that may be wishful thinking. If you're careful with the dosing, I doubt human ivermectin is substantially different from horse ivermectin. I just wish they'd ramp up the production of paxlovid and we could be done with the whole thing in a few months, ivermectin and covid and all. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 17 hours ago, kbutton said: See, where I am, this line of thinking is the banana peel that put them in the ditch, but they don't see that they could've kept these same concerns and not used it as a slippery slope. It's about knowing where your limits are--at one point, no matter your philosophy, do you say, "Wait a minute, have I gone off the cliff?" Lots of people do not have that failsafe. The originator of this thread has talked about having limits--things that would make you stop and check your bias, though I don't remember her phrasing. People here are very, very much in the ditch. Some are stuck and some are playing in it and choosing not to hop back out. They are doing it for political reasons and due to influencers they trust that they don't realize are conspiratorial. They see that the person is pro-life, a Christian, a fellow homeschooler (or whatever), and has the same political bent, and they throw out all reason. I fit all of those same criteria, but these people haven't known me as long, and they don't like that I'm pushing back. They want full agreement, not friendly skepticism and critical thinking. (ETA: I am conservative, but not in the way that is currently embraced, and these folks were not that kind of conservative until recently either! I saw a definitive fork in the road, and they said they could take that fork and still end up in the same place. They aren't the same people anymore now.) People are getting what they want, and I don't feel sorry for them. I just don't. They want cut and dry in a situation that is not so. They want the pandemic to be over when they feel like they can't handle it anymore or are tired of changing behavior (or had their politics challenged). For most people, this is not about reason even when it looks like it could be. The ones that truly are middle of the road are there because they're cognitive filter says, "extremes are not reasonable." This usually works, but pandemics are extreme by definition. In addition, they feel pulled between varying loyalties that aren't factual. But they don't realize that the conspiracy theorists got there early, camped out, and are so extreme that it changed even what middle of the road looks like in the way that one bad answer on a four question quiz is very different from one bad answer on a 100 question quiz. The anti-vax people got there ahead of time too. In fact, they were planting information the minute there were shut-downs. I think a lot of normal people absorbed that and didn't realize where it came from. I was seeing crazy crap asap and wondering where it came from, but I hadn't taken screen shots, so I couldn't point this out later and connect the dots for people. If they understood that they've been drip, drip, dripped on by bad actors and see that the manipulators were waiting for their moment in the sun, I think they could be made to feel less conflicted and sever some of the ill thought out loyalties to see that the conspiracies are a bigger outlier than an inconsistent message. how would one know if they've been drip, drip, dripped on by some kind of media bubble? doesn't everyone think they are looking at the "correct' sources? your statement about cut and dry is interesting to me. i find a lot of dogma like this on various stances, that staying home or giving up activities or not doing x, or doing y is black and white easy. if people just did the right thing (as defined by them) then we wouldn't even have a pandemic. that was very clearly not true by about april or may of last year, maybe sooner, but i still see people saying it pretty regularly. that this is all a cut and dry failure of human behavior. but they don't see themselves has gone off a cliff at all either, so where does that leave us/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BronzeTurtle Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Corraleno said: I was "led to believe" the 70% stat from MS because the original statement they released said "At least 70% of the recent calls have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers," and that is how it was reported by every major media outlet that covered it. right. that was kind of my point in asking my questions. does it seem strange at all they reported it that way when it was obviously not true? that you saw all this and didn't manage to see a correction on it from the same sources with the same initial amplification? and you remembered it months later to post it to a message board without question? it's obviously misinformation, easy to lookup, but yet...no one did? that NPR article you just linked cites the exact claim from Mississippi I just debunked with no correction. so how do i read the rest of the article without thinking maybe something is off? how can you cite that article with that claim still in it? and there are many claims there that either lack evidence or numbers, or there's no context for the numbers, or what something like 'ivermectin exposure' means. there is a named phenonmenon that i can't think of right now where one person can read an article in a newspaper that they know to be totally wrong because of their own expertise, turn the page and read an article outside of the expertise and believe every word of it. it's interesting for sure. what we read and believe often confirms our biases without us realizing it. and usually when something is pointed out to be incorrect it's an odd human thing where we will double down on our assertions instead of becoming skeptical. we continue to trust people who agree with us and think like us even if they are proven wrong here and there, or we don't even see the lens through which something is being reported because we totally agree with it, like not being able to see the window we're looking through. all very interesting though. what we don't read is interesting to. anyway, it's very clear you are set in your ideas about who is doing what and further conversation towards that end is likely not helpful, right? like you've categorized some people, that's who they are, that's what the problem is, we bring in different subjects like lockdowns, vaccines, and racism and aside from actually invoking godwin I think we're pretty good and done, lol. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSera Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Ceilingfan said: If instead the establishment or the media had said well, there are some decent studies showing ivermectin is effective, let's look into that (and then determined the a priori conclusion, that it is a drug for worms and therefore works for worms, was correct), I think there would be less inclination to take ivermectin if you don't have worms. In fact, I think the media or the science establishment could do that NOW and still have some effect, although that may be wishful thinking. I’d like to think this is true, but sadly I don’t think it would have all that big of an effect. Some people who aren’t religiously committed to this being true would likely benefit from hearing it, but most of the people pushing and believing this stuff haven’t been convinced by facts about anything else, so I don’t think they will be here either (these are largely the same people who think more people are dying from vaccines than Covid—clearly their truth and facts have no basis in reality). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said: how would one know if they've been drip, drip, dripped on by some kind of media bubble? doesn't everyone think they are looking at the "correct' sources? Well, media literacy is a thing. There are some in-between sources that are more casual that aren't outright bad sources, you just need to realize they are filling their page, not being super stringent (newsy, but not news and not really conspiracy theory; blogs). Other sites are so bad that it's like reading junk mail, and it should be obvious!!! I see people post "news stories" that are just random rants on a message board, not news, and they should know this. I push back on it. They get offended. In about 2 minutes, I can often show them that the site is not even a real site. They DON'T CARE. This includes teachers that should have some media literacy skills. It's stunning. If you can't find an About section on the site, that's usually just really, really bad, and if you don't know that, you really shouldn't be on the internet. Then there is the group that just doesn't want to have to fact check everything. You can sometimes talk and reason, but they just blow things off and say stuff like, "Who really listens to that banana head anyway?" Well, um, most of our friend group does. That's literally the only middle of the road group I really know. The ones that *think* this is not happening. They are people that don't live on social media. But they don't realize how much of the attitude that comes their way about verifiable news stories is tainted and slanted because they trust that *their* friends aren't being sucked in. So, it's indirect. Early on, I was seeing stuff amplified that had hashtags in common, and that is one thing that cued me in. If there is a hashtag, there is a movement. A lot of people don't even notice or know. Much of the discernment is knowing what kinds of dog whistles your crows is susceptible to either from bias or fear. I KNOW my crowd thinks everything is about the End Times and satanic stuff (everything was satanic in the late 80's and early 90's, except it wasn't). And this is even outside the group that doesn't know they are being inundated with subtle Q amplifiers. These are just their issues they lose their minds over. So, yeah, if someone from that group is suddenly seeing End Times alert, I roll my eyes and take a closer look. They get scared, clutch their pearls, and pass on information. They haven't learned to be discerning when the stakes are low and refuse to think they could be being manipulated when the stakes are high. They think they were right about the satanic stuff in the 80's and 90's and don't realize their sources were majorly discredited. Quote your statement about cut and dry is interesting to me. i find a lot of dogma like this on various stances, that staying home or giving up activities or not doing x, or doing y is black and white easy. if people just did the right thing (as defined by them) then we wouldn't even have a pandemic. that was very clearly not true by about april or may of last year, maybe sooner, but i still see people saying it pretty regularly. that this is all a cut and dry failure of human behavior. but they don't see themselves has gone off a cliff at all either, so where does that leave us/ At various times, those things have been true. Not everyone is talking about it being easy for two years, easy right now, or feasible right now. Sometimes they are ranting about what people didn't do. Sometimes they are talking about doing those things during a surge. I see tons of balance with mental health concerns, putting food on the table, etc. I see concerns about doing the right thing for those who have no choices. I think there were systems-wide failures that potentially could've prevented this from being as big of a pandemic. At one point, I took my friend for a follow-up for a surgery she had. They will still restricting their Covid questions to China when the news was full of other countries having outbreaks. They could just ask, "Have you traveled lately?" They do that NOW. That certainly could've helped a great deal. Multiply that times other failures, and it's a legit complaint. Once the cat is out of the bag, I agree--the pandemic will run it's course. But we can make it better or worse. Edited January 6, 2022 by kbutton Clarity at the end of the 3rd paragraph 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said: right. that was kind of my point in asking my questions. does it seem strange at all they reported it that way when it was obviously not true? that you saw all this and didn't manage to see a correction on it from the same sources with the same initial amplification? and you remembered it months later to post it to a message board without question? it's obviously misinformation, easy to lookup, but yet...no one did? that NPR article you just linked cites the exact claim from Mississippi I just debunked with no correction. so how do i read the rest of the article without thinking maybe something is off? how can you cite that article with that claim still in it? and there are many claims there that either lack evidence or numbers, or there's no context for the numbers, or what something like 'ivermectin exposure' means. there is a named phenonmenon that i can't think of right now where one person can read an article in a newspaper that they know to be totally wrong because of their own expertise, turn the page and read an article outside of the expertise and believe every word of it. it's interesting for sure. what we read and believe often confirms our biases without us realizing it. and usually when something is pointed out to be incorrect it's an odd human thing where we will double down on our assertions instead of becoming skeptical. we continue to trust people who agree with us and think like us even if they are proven wrong here and there, or we don't even see the lens through which something is being reported because we totally agree with it, like not being able to see the window we're looking through. all very interesting though. what we don't read is interesting to. anyway, it's very clear you are set in your ideas about who is doing what and further conversation towards that end is likely not helpful, right? like you've categorized some people, that's who they are, that's what the problem is, we bring in different subjects like lockdowns, vaccines, and racism and aside from actually invoking godwin I think we're pretty good and done, lol. I didn't "double down" on the MS numbers, I pointed out why they were misinterpreted to begin with, and I provided links to other articles that included other stats. And the fact that 70% of ivermectin poisoning calls were from people who took the animal version still proves the point that many people are in fact taking horse wormer. Here's a link to the actual data from the National Poison Data System stating there were 1140 calls to poison control centers for ivermectin poisoning between January and September 2021. Not that actual poisoning is even the main issue with ivermectin. The fact that you chose to hyperfocus on a single data point that is in no way foundational to the rest of the argument, and ignore everything else, is telling. One statement from one state's poison control center was poorly worded and widely misinterpreted, ergo the use of ivermectin, including veterinary forms, often in lieu of vaccination or other genuinely efficacious treatments, is not a real problem. Let's pretend that multiple talking heads on the most popular cable news station in the US, as well as many of the most popular talk radio "personalities," are not actually promoting this drug along with antivax messages and conspiracy theories to millions of viewers and listeners; that farm supply stores across the country aren't really complaining they can't keep it in stock because so many people are buying it for covid; that US Congressmen like Ron Johnson and Louie Gohmert are not actively promoting both the drug and the conspiracy theories; that Pierre Kory did not actually testify before Congress that his protocol can prevent 75% of covid deaths, which was a total lie; that no one is actually dying because they believed they didn't need a vaccine since ivermectin and vitamins will cure them; that no one is harassing HCWs or suing hospitals to demand treatment with bogus "protocols" that include ivermectin. Since some employee at the MS poison Center did not word one particular statement very well, we can safely assume that none of the rest of it is real, that nearly everyone who takes ivermectin has carefully weighed the data and is taking it under a doctor's supervision with no ill effects, and that those who claim otherwise are just close-minded and biased. Because that's way less uncomfortable than confronting the reality of what is happening in this country. Edited January 6, 2022 by Corraleno 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, kbutton said: Early on, I was seeing stuff amplified that had hashtags in common, and that is one thing that cued me in. If there is a hashtag, there is a movement. A lot of people don't even notice or know. Much of the discernment is knowing what kinds of dog whistles your crows is susceptible to either from bias or fear. I KNOW my crowd thinks everything is about the End Times and satanic stuff (everything was satanic in the late 80's and early 90's, except it wasn't). And this is even outside the group that doesn't know they are being inundated with subtle Q amplifiers. These are just their issues they lose their minds over. So, yeah, if someone from that group is suddenly seeing End Times alert, I roll my eyes and take a closer look. They get scared, clutch their pearls, and pass on information. They haven't learned to be discerning when the stakes are low and refuse to think they could be being manipulated when the stakes are high. They think they were right about the satanic stuff in the 80's and 90's and don't realize their sources were majorly discredited. I am going to beat this dead horse some more. I thought that people around me did their research. I was part of a church as a young married adult where the pastor was pretty good at riding out these issues--when the war on terror started, he would educate us on just war theory and things like that...well, we had a speaker come once. We were so lucky to have him! He grew up in xyz culture that he's discussing but also has advanced theological degrees! We're so lucky to have him speak here!!! Years later, it turns out he's a fake. Crickets--no one went back and said so. Things just went on. This kind of stuff makes me feel duped, so I tend to be super skeptical now. I was earnest, and now I am jaded. Everyone else is just head in the sand. That's not okay. I feel like I am required to be jaded so that people can feel free to be happy and unconflicted. I resent it, frankly. ETA: And these people are supposed to be "my elders and my betters" as they used to say. They are supposed to be mentoring me; I'm not supposed to be teaching them how to be not stupid. At this point, they probably wouldn't even listen to me if I corrected a wrong phone number they post on their church website. It's unreal. And my middle of the road friends tell me to relax. Huh? They tell me social media is poisonous. But they aren't saying this to the people *actually lying on social media.* Or if they are, they are lumping the informed in with the ignorant and saying it's healthier to be blissfully unaware because people would be willing to change their minds if they just thought a little harder. Horse puckey. Edited January 6, 2022 by kbutton 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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