Lots of covid around me and lots of ivermectin 🤷‍♀️

[busymama7]

Title says it all.  Several are vaccinated so that's interesting. One swears it made her better in a day.  

Has there been any updated studies or anything? 

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Title says it all.  Several are vaccinated so that's interesting. One swears it made her better in a day.  

Has there been any updated studies or anything? 

All I’ve seen are several of the often referenced earlier studies retracted for irregularities and falsified data and an updated study showing no benefit. I haven’t seen the Oxford study having any results out yet. 

[Ottakee]

I would love to know too.  My son in laws mother had covid and swears the ivermectin helped her quickly....but she also got the antibody infusion....so

[Pawz4me]

The placebo effect shouldn't be discounted. And I don't mean that in a disparaging way. It IS a thing.

[Starr]

A relative of my dd in-laws was sure he got Covid the day he got his booster because he headaches and chills. She smiled and shared her immune response to the shots. We make our own connections that’s why we need proper studies. 

[MercyA]

8 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Title says it all.  Several are vaccinated so that's interesting. One swears it made her better in a day.  

I know someone who believes this. Turns out they also took a steroid from the doctor on the same day. Hmmm.... 😉 

But also, the placebo effect is real. 

[scholastica]

This is the most recent thing I have seen on it. From The Economist. 

[Fritz]

He has several videos on Ivermectin's use in other countries. 

[BlsdMama]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

The placebo effect shouldn't be discounted. And I don't mean that in a disparaging way. It IS a thing.

It totally IS a thing.  It sidelined an important treatment for ALS in it's third trial.  The placebo effect within the mind is far more powerful on healing than we currently realize.

[plansrme]

So? A little Ivermectin never hurt anybody. 

[TCB]

16 minutes ago, plansrme said:

So? A little Ivermectin never hurt anybody. 

Could well be true unless it stops them getting other treatments because they are relying solely on the Ivermectin. We just had someone who unfortunately didn’t survive who was treated with Ivermectin by his dr but didn’t get MABs. We’ve had really good results with monoclonals- at least for Delta.

[J-rap]

A whole slew of distant relatives of mine bought hundreds of dollars' worth of this and are sharing it with each other.  Several are retired medical doctors.  They're also all somewhat prone to conspiracy theories.   (They still believe Obama was not a US citizen.)   Several of them served as missionaries (doctors) in Africa in the past, so, I can kind of see that actual first-hand experience in how that same drug maybe did seem to help a lot of people they treated in Africa (obviously not for Covid) mixed with conspiracy theory leanings could unfortunately get them to believe this.

I was really glad that one of my siblings who is also prone to a few political and Biblical conspiracy theories who is also a medical doctor told them that it would likely not help them at all with Covid.  (He is slowly coming around!)

 

[Faith-manor]

37 minutes ago, TCB said:

Could well be true unless it stops them getting other treatments because they are relying solely on the Ivermectin. We just had someone who unfortunately didn’t survive who was treated with Ivermectin by his dr but didn’t get MABs. We’ve had really good results with monoclonals- at least for Delta.

We have seen this here. Soooo sure that over next in will do it that they wait until it is too late for anything else to have a hope of helping, and melting their insides from the high doses over many days. The stuff is NOT to be messed with, and Tractor Supply locally had to take it off the shelves and require proof of owning livestock in addition to having an already established farm account in order to purchase it at the customer service desk. Just crazy.

[busymama7]

55 minutes ago, plansrme said:

So? A little Ivermectin never hurt anybody. 

I don't think it's hurting. I'm just super curious as to the truth about it.  The powers that be have been SO against it, even trying to ban it from being dispensed and I just find that super weird.  Somehow all these people around me are still getting it and really think it's working. I just want to know.  Many long haulers think it works for them too. (it didn't for me at 6 months post covid when I literally was desperate enough to try it). 

Placebo effect could be it for sure.  For one, she claimed it worked but she was vaccinated and discounted that on probably shortening her sickness.  Who knows. 

[busymama7]

2 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

We have seen this here. Soooo sure that over next in will do it that they wait until it is too late for anything else to have a hope of helping, and melting their insides from the high doses over many days. The stuff is NOT to be messed with, and Tractor Supply locally had to take it off the shelves and require proof of owning livestock in addition to having an already established farm account in order to purchase it at the customer service desk. Just crazy.

Ok taking the horse medicine is just plain stupid. But these people are getting the human form from their Drs.  🤷‍♀️

[El...]

1 hour ago, plansrme said:

So? A little Ivermectin never hurt anybody. 

A little, maybe not. But folks who got hurt weren't taking a little. They were taking a lot, without accurate dosage calculations, and getting very injured on top of covid. Intestinal insult on top of injury. 

Folks need to stop with this stuff. 

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

The powers that be have been SO against it, even trying to ban it from being dispensed and I just find that super weird.

I don't think that's all that weird. In general, doctors aren't allowed to prescribe medications to people without an indication that calls for it. Like, I shouldn't be given a prescription for prednisone just because I ask for it if I have no body process going on that calls for prednisone. The article from The Economist that @scholastica posted above echoes what I have read other places since summer; that the only studies that may have shown some difference are places where the type of parasite ivermectin treats are very common, such that eliminating the parasite helps people fight off and recover from covid. Particularly as steroid treatment (dexamethasone in the case of covid) makes strongyloides more likely to overwhelm someone's system and be fatal. It makes sense that in people with high prevalence of strongyloides, not getting rid of them will lead to higher death rates particularly among those also receiving dexamethasone.  No such ivermectin effect has been found places where people don't have strongyloides.

[BeachGal]

It’s important to know for sure whether someone has omicron, delta or some other variant.

Unlike delta or earlier variants, omicron is not inducing the formation of syncytia which is why it is milder in so many. The lungs are not getting hit as hard.

Omicron is extremely fast at replicating, though, which is why it’s spreading so quickly.

[Happy2BaMom]

India recently quit using ivermectin because it found - in actual clinical studies - that it made little to no difference in the treatment of Covid.  Nor is ivermectin used in Japan (although people claim it is), although they have their conspiracy theorists there, too.

Another good article on how we got here from the BBC, and there are many others that can be found by googling.

John Campbell is not a doctor, and he does not treat Covid patients and never has. He also has a history of not correctly interpreting studies. 

And my ICU/ER-based nurse family member states that roughly half of her Covid patients state that they self-treated with ivermectin. And it absolutely does delay people coming in for treatment (because they're waiting for that MirAclE recovery), meaning more-invasive & less-desirable treatment options must then be used.

[busymama7]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I don't think that's all that weird. In general, doctors aren't allowed to prescribe medications to people without an indication that calls for it. Like, I shouldn't be given a prescription for prednisone just because I ask for it if I have no body process going on that calls for prednisone. The article from The Economist that @scholastica posted above echoes what I have read other places since summer; that the only studies that may have shown some difference are places where the type of parasite ivermectin treats are very common, such that eliminating the parasite helps people fight off and recover from covid. Particularly as steroid treatment (dexamethasone in the case of covid) makes strongyloides more likely to overwhelm someone's system and be fatal. It makes sense that in people with high prevalence of strongyloides, not getting rid of them will lead to higher death rates particularly among those also receiving dexamethasone.  No such ivermectin effect has been found places where people don't have strongyloides.

I thought that once a medication was approved, a Dr could prescribe it for off label use per discretion.  These Drs are apparently believing it has merit for covid (doesn't seem like the evidence is there but still) I don't know of another case where pharmacies have been told not to fill prescriptions written by Drs.

[desertflower]

I think this is a pretty good explanation.

 

[Corraleno]

31 minutes ago, desertflower said:

I think this is a pretty good explanation.

 

This is a really good summary of the evidence, and I've found Dr. Hansen's videos to be quite good throughout the pandemic. Unlike John Campbell, who is not a doctor and is terrible at evaluating scientific studies, Hansen is board certified in internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonology, and he has direct experience treating covid patients. He was also one of the very few who correctly noted the fatal flaws in the now withdrawn Spanish Vitamin D study, which Campbell and many others uncritically reported as incontrovertible proof that large doses of Vitamin D (post infection) effectively cure covid.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This is a really good summary of the evidence, and I've found Dr. Hansen's videos to be quite good throughout the pandemic. Unlike John Campbell, who is not a doctor and is terrible at evaluating scientific studies, Hansen is board certified in internal medicine, critical care medicine, and pulmonology, and he has direct experience treating covid patients. He was also one of the very few who correctly noted the fatal flaws in the now withdrawn Spanish Vitamin D study, which Campbell and many others uncritically reported as incontrovertible proof that large doses of Vitamin D (post infection) effectively cure covid.

I had really been hoping the Vitamin D thing was going to work. 😞 I kind of doubted it, but I was still hopeful.

Does anyone know whatever happened to the theory that people with adequate vitamin D levels were less likely to develop serious cases of Covid? Did that prove to be true or false (or do they not know?) I assumed that Vitamin D3 would be helpful in general, and I have been taking it for years anyway, but I am still wondering about the possible link to less severe Covid. 

[BeachGal]

18 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I had really been hoping the Vitamin D thing was going to work. 😞 I kind of doubted it, but I was still hopeful.

Does anyone know whatever happened to the theory that people with adequate vitamin D levels were less likely to develop serious cases of Covid? Did that prove to be true or false (or do they not know?) I assumed that Vitamin D3 would be helpful in general, and I have been taking it for years anyway, but I am still wondering about the possible link to less severe Covid. 

I like Rhonda Patrick’s discussions of the vitamin d studies. You can read what she has to say at her website FoundMyFitness. 
 

ETA Taking vitamin D as a treatment doesn’t appear to help but having healthy levels before infection might help.

Edited January 4, 2022 by BeachGal

[Carol in Cal.]

I have a very good friend who got Covid last year along with her husband and their grown, pregnant daughter.  They were all vaccinated at the time.  The friend took ivermectin, and the others did not.  (Obs a human dose/prescription, not vet stuff.).  The friend had a much milder case than the other two.  None of them got long Covid, and this was before Omicron but I don’t know whether it was Delta or something else.  

Just, an anecdote, FYI.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I had really been hoping the Vitamin D thing was going to work. 😞 I kind of doubted it, but I was still hopeful.

Does anyone know whatever happened to the theory that people with adequate vitamin D levels were less likely to develop serious cases of Covid? Did that prove to be true or false (or do they not know?) I assumed that Vitamin D3 would be helpful in general, and I have been taking it for years anyway, but I am still wondering about the possible link to less severe Covid. 

Taking megadoses of Vitamin D once you're already sick doesn't work, but there is data from long before covid that vitamin D deficiency is associated with poor immune function, including more severe respiratory infections. And since most Americans do not have adequate Vitamin D levels, supplementing with D3 (+ K2) is a good idea, with no real downside. Even if it only helps a little with covid, Vitamin D is so important for so many different physiological processes that it's worth making sure your levels are really good.

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Taking megadoses of Vitamin D once you're already sick doesn't work, but there is data from long before covid that vitamin D deficiency is associated with poor immune function, including more severe respiratory infections. And since most Americans do not have adequate Vitamin D levels, supplementing with D3 (+ K2) is a good idea, with no real downside. Even if it only helps a little with covid, Vitamin D is so important for so many different physiological processes that it's worth making sure your levels are really good.

Thanks! That’s what I was thinking, too, but I was wondering if I might have missed some new info.

[plansrme]

4 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Ok taking the horse medicine is just plain stupid. But these people are getting the human form from their Drs.  🤷‍♀️

Ivermectin has been used in humans for decades. The fact that it is also used for livestock does not mean it is not safe for humans. I have no investment in or opinion on whether it is effective, but it is stupid to dismiss any treatment just because it is also used for animals.

[Catwoman]

13 minutes ago, plansrme said:

Ivermectin has been used in humans for decades. The fact that it is also used for livestock does not mean it is not safe for humans. I have no investment in or opinion on whether it is effective, but it is stupid to dismiss any treatment just because it is also used for animals.

I think @busymama7 meant that people are taking the ivermectin from the feed store that is intended for horses, not the human version that their doctor could prescribe for them.

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, plansrme said:

Ivermectin has been used in humans for decades. The fact that it is also used for livestock does not mean it is not safe for humans. I have no investment in or opinion on whether it is effective, but it is stupid to dismiss any treatment just because it is also used for animals.

Tractor Supply company is the local source. Not doctors. It comes in massive single doses for horses and cows, and people are just sucking it down guessing how much they should take. No monitoring.

And folks, it treats parasites. Parasites. Not even close too the same organism as virus. It does not treat viruses in animals. So there is no reason to believe it works on this virus. It has to be used very judiciously in humans because there are some pretty darn awful side effects that can occur. I do not blame any doctor for refusing to use it off label. There are safer anti-parasite meds than ivermectin, so it is mostly used for river blindness.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Faith-manor

[Corraleno]

On 1/4/2022 at 4:10 PM, Faith-manor said:

Tractor Supply company is the local source. Not doctors. It comes in massive single doses for horses and cows, and people are just sucking it down guessing how much they should take. No monitoring.

Exactly. No one is dismissing ivermectin "just because it's also used for animals." People are dismissing it because (1) there is no scientific evidence it works against covid, and (2) most people who are self-treating with it are in fact using livestock dewormer, which is beyond stupid. Multiple states have reported a big uptick in calls for ivermectin poisoning — Mississippi reported that 70% of all calls to the poison control center [eta: for ivermectin poisoning] were from people who took ivermectin meant for livestock. And sites like the HCA subreddit and sorryantivaxxer are full of cases of unvaxed people who self-treated with ivermectin instead of getting help before it was too late. The misinformation about ivermectin is far from harmless.

And the ultimate irony is that ivermectin and HCQ were tested on exactly the same fetal cell line (HEK-293) as the mRNA vaccines which so many of the same people claim to be refusing for "religious reasons."

Edited January 6, 2022 by Corraleno

[Fritz]

15 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I think @busymama7 meant that people are taking the ivermectin from the feed store that is intended for horses, not the human version that their doctor could prescribe for them.

She said they are getting it from their doctors, not the feed store.

[busymama7]

9 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Exactly. No one is dismissing ivermectin "just because it's also used for animals." People are dismissing it because (1) there is no scientific evidence it works against covid, and (2) most people who are self-treating with it are in fact using livestock dewormer, which is beyond stupid. Multiple states have reported a big uptick in calls for ivermectin poisoning — Mississippi reported that 70% of all calls to the poison control center were from people who took ivermectin meant for livestock. And sites like the HCA subreddit and sorryantivaxxer are full of cases of unvaxed people who self-treated with ivermectin instead of getting help before it was too late. The misinformation about ivermectin is far from harmless.

And the ultimate irony is that ivermectin and HCQ were tested on exactly the same fetal cell line (HEK-293) as the mRNA vaccines which so many of the same people claim to be refusing for "religious reasons."

I agree with this but the people I am talking about got the human form by prescription.   It just surprised me because I am pretty sure it is all different doctors and probably pharmacies too.  

[WildflowerMom]

3 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

I agree with this but the people I am talking about got the human form by prescription.   It just surprised me because I am pretty sure it is all different doctors and probably pharmacies too.  

The ones I know who took it, got it from their doctor, as well.   I doubt it worked, but the doctor did prescribe it (and hydrocloroquine).   he also sent them for antibodies and that's probably what saved them.     If I was super sick and my doctor prescribed iver, I'd take it.  🤷🏻‍♀️    
But feed stores?  Heck no.  🙅🏻‍♀️

[KSera]

12 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

If I was super sick and my doctor prescribed iver, I'd take it.  

For me personally, if I had a case of Covid that started to go south and my doctor prescribed ivermectin, I would be suddenly very concerned that I had a doctor who didn’t know what they were doing and weren’t up on what actually works and I wasn’t going to get proper treatment to get better.

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Fritz said:

She said they are getting it from their doctors, not the feed store.

Oops! Sorry! Thanks for correcting me. Please ignore me!!! (You ignore me too, @plansrme!) 

[WildflowerMom]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

For me personally, if I had a case of Covid that started to go south and my doctor prescribed ivermectin, I would be suddenly very concerned that I had a doctor who didn’t know what they were doing and weren’t up on what actually works and I wasn’t going to get proper treatment to get better.

I'd probably worry about that, too...while I was seeking out more help and still taking the iver. 

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

For me personally, if I had a case of Covid that started to go south and my doctor prescribed ivermectin, I would be suddenly very concerned that I had a doctor who didn’t know what they were doing and weren’t up on what actually works and I wasn’t going to get proper treatment to get better.

No joke! I would run fast from such a practitioner. 

[BronzeTurtle]

Ivermectin also happens to have anti-inflammatory properties that help with immune system over reactions (people use it for rosaeca in small doses). which may be why it makes people feel better if they respond well to it during the course of something like covid. it isn't just for animals, not just for parasites, etc. it doesn't work for some people and it isn't an anti-viral, but if a dr. prescribed it off-label in human dosage for inflammation of any kind I wouldn't run screaming or anything. I don't know that anyone would have pre-covid.

[BronzeTurtle]

I will concur with the OP that I happen to know a few people who used it, all prescribed by their doctor (and no, they don't all have the same dr.). No one I know that used it used any kind of livestock paste. one person said it did nothing, two people said they felt better w/in 12 hours of taking it but obviously have no way of know if they would have felt better anyway, just that they got it because they felt worse after however many days of being sick. the only way I know any of this is because we were in a group talking after a meeting.

[BronzeTurtle]

13 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Exactly. No one is dismissing ivermectin "just because it's also used for animals." People are dismissing it because (1) there is no scientific evidence it works against covid, and (2) most people who are self-treating with it are in fact using livestock dewormer, which is beyond stupid. Multiple states have reported a big uptick in calls for ivermectin poisoning — Mississippi reported that 70% of all calls to the poison control center were from people who took ivermectin meant for livestock. And sites like the HCA subreddit and sorryantivaxxer are full of cases of unvaxed people who self-treated with ivermectin instead of getting help before it was too late. The misinformation about ivermectin is far from harmless.

And the ultimate irony is that ivermectin and HCQ were tested on exactly the same fetal cell line (HEK-293) as the mRNA vaccines which so many of the same people claim to be refusing for "religious reasons."

This isn't quite correct. 70% of 14 calls re ivm were about livestock meds. Not 70% of all calls to poison control for whatever period. They clarified after a lot of alarm was raised over this exact claim. https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/15400.pdf according to their document only one person was sent to the doctor for help because of how much they took. 

not to be pedantic, but 10 calls (even 10 calls a month!) of people doing dumb stuff seems way more plausible and frankly unsurprising given all the pandemic stuff going around the internet. I don't know much about reddit because the last time I used it was over 5 years ago, but I don't know if they are a scientifically creditable source representative of most of the population or if you could even build a case study from what people post there. the last time I was there there were a lot of trolls, bots, people made stuff up for attention, you name it. I don't think I could say something big is happening because of what people post on any given reddit forum.

Edited January 5, 2022 by BronzeTurtle

[shawthorne44]

The general suppression of therapeutics is disturbing.   I have no opinion on ivermectin.   But it seems that throwing the more things on it that might help and won't hurt would be a good thing.   Things like hospitals not allowing vitamins.   If we were talking about something that the hospital was already giving and could be overdosed on (like vitamin A), I could understand that.    But say vitamin D that people are already short on, or vitamin C where the excess just gets ejected, I don't see the harm.   

I don't have a medical degree, but I do have a science degree and I can read a study.   There are some things that stink to high heaven with recent studies.   Like a study on ivermectin that showed early promising results, then is cut short of the planned scope and the summary is that "There isn't enough to data" to say that it works.   Well, yeah, because you didn't collect enough data.     I have seen that often enough that I now translate "There isn't enough to data", "It probably works but we were hoping to prove that it doesn't"   
 

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

But say vitamin D that people are already short on, or vitamin C where the excess just gets ejected, I don't see the harm.
 

They aren't always benign. I've yet to find a Vitamin C supplement I can take that doesn't cause pretty bad stomach cramping. If I had Covid and was bad enough to need hospitalization, I sure wouldn't want to have to deal with stomach cramps on top of everything else.

[scholastica]

8 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

The general suppression of therapeutics is disturbing.   I have no opinion on ivermectin.   But it seems that throwing the more things on it that might help and won't hurt would be a good thing.   Things like hospitals not allowing vitamins.   If we were talking about something that the hospital was already giving and could be overdosed on (like vitamin A), I could understand that.    But say vitamin D that people are already short on, or vitamin C where the excess just gets ejected, I don't see the harm.   

I don't have a medical degree, but I do have a science degree and I can read a study.   There are some things that stink to high heaven with recent studies.   Like a study on ivermectin that showed early promising results, then is cut short of the planned scope and the summary is that "There isn't enough to data" to say that it works.   Well, yeah, because you didn't collect enough data.     I have seen that often enough that I now translate "There isn't enough to data", "It probably works but we were hoping to prove that it doesn't"   
 

But why? Why would someone put the time, energy and money into a study for that purpose? What would motivate that? 

[shawthorne44]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

They aren't always benign. I've yet to find a Vitamin C supplement I can take that doesn't cause pretty bad stomach cramping. If I had Covid and was bad enough to need hospitalization, I sure wouldn't want to have to deal with stomach cramps on top of everything else.

Then you wouldn't be one that wanted to take it.  Not everyone can take everything.   I can't take Demorral for example, 

[shawthorne44]

Just now, scholastica said:

But why? Why would someone put the time, energy and money into a study for that purpose? What would motivate that? 

There are many reasons that a study was seeking to prove one thing over another.   This isn't something new.   

The fact that we can't think of benign reason just makes it stink even more.  
 

[scholastica]

Just now, shawthorne44 said:

There are many reasons that a study was seeking to prove one thing over another.   This isn't something new.   

The fact that we can't think of benign reason just makes it stink even more.  
 

I can’t think of a reason to do it at all, benign or not. It’s a great way to ruin one’s reputation as a scientist. 

[shawthorne44]

3 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I can’t think of a reason to do it at all, benign or not. It’s a great way to ruin one’s reputation as a scientist. 

But it doesn't.    They didn't fake the data or lie in the study.    In fact, doing this makes it easier to getting funding for future studies because the group funding would know that these scientist wouldn't publish an undesirable result.   

[scholastica]

31 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

But it doesn't.    They didn't fake the data or lie in the study.    In fact, doing this makes it easier to getting funding for future studies because the group funding would know that these scientist wouldn't publish an undesirable result.   

I would need a lot more proof to start accusing people I don’t know if that type of behavior. 

[shawthorne44]

9 minutes ago, scholastica said:

I would need a lot more proof to start accusing people I don’t know if that type of behavior. 

I'm not accusing anyone of anything that they didn't publish themselves.