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4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

It’s obvious that the answer is fixing K-12 system and not pushing the problem down to colleges. Everybody benefits from this - kids, parents. 
I don’t understand why a kid who isn’t functionally or numerically literate (to use your words) is getting a high school diploma. 

Because the teachers are not allowed to fail the students because then they won't graduate on time and that lowers the state funding to the school.

Yes fixing K-12 would fix that, for the next generation. It isn't doing anything for Gen Z who is already suffering the consequences, and it would take several graduating classes for employers to change their policies based on these changes. I am not defending it. It stinks to high heaven! It is what it is at the moment. Sigh.

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4 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

It’s obvious that the answer is fixing K-12 system and not pushing the problem down to colleges. Everybody benefits from this - kids, parents. 
I don’t understand why a kid who isn’t functionally or numerically literate (to use your words) is getting a high school diploma. 

This. And again, why the push for spending time and money on CRT and DEI when they do not have the very BASICS to quailify for a high school diploma or to function in the work world? I guess it will be important for them to understand their privlege or their lack there of when they get out of high school with no marketable skills for college, tech school or work. 

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News from my environs. They’re not the only ones panicking about the explicit threat from the incoming administration to ban the teaching of accurate history in VA schools. Vulcan mind meld going on here. My DDs school offered this new elective this year, for the first time. It may disappear next year. The story was shared with me by a black family/friend that lives outside the beltway in NOVA. I attended one of the mentioned plantation/Civil War battlefield tours with my DS as a 5th grader and was forced to pull him aside, SEVERAL times, to correct things the volunteer docents said. We are too comfortable to fit the working class stereotype and too Blackety-black to be considered important/noteworthy suburban voters despite our growing numbers. Thus, we're ignored and find ourselves shouting into the abyss over a supremely well-funded machine of disinformation. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/virginia-education-black-families_n_619c12dee4b0f398af093896?utm_campaign=share_facebook&ncid=engmodushpmg00000003&fbclid=IwAR0cqbArJ4GOv_rRVvgnrjkLnriA6_KyVt8jCp9nt-9u4AIbibYTOcTAKwE

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16 hours ago, Fritz said:

This. And again, why the push for spending time and money on CRT and DEI when they do not have the very BASICS to quailify for a high school diploma or to function in the work world? I guess it will be important for them to understand their privlege or their lack there of when they get out of high school with no marketable skills for college, tech school or work. 

Because seeing themselves in history, literature, and even the photos in books has a direct correlation with students actually completing school at all. Kids need role models. A DWEAMS (dead, white, European descent, able bodied, male, straight) curriculum does not provide that for many students. Black families, in particular, have long realized they can't count on schools to provide that, and there are long booklists and resource list circulated for other groups as well-but it still sends a definite message when what you are is allowed to exist at home or at church, but not at school. 

 

It is not an either or. It is that there is a significant need for both excellent instruction in core academics AND representation and historical context for an increasingly diverse population.  There is no reason to blame CRT for poor teaching of reading, for example. Dick and Jane are hardly diverse-and about as far from phonics first or even balanced literacy as you can get. 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Because seeing themselves in history, literature, and even the photos in books has a direct correlation with students actually completing school at all. Kids need role models. A DWEAMS (dead, white, European descent, able bodied, male, straight) curriculum does not provide that for many students. Black families, in particular, have long realized they can't count on schools to provide that, and there are long booklists and resource list circulated for other groups as well-but it still sends a definite message when what you are is allowed to exist at home or at church, but not at school. 

 

It is not an either or. It is that there is a significant need for both excellent instruction in core academics AND representation and historical context for an increasingly diverse population.  There is no reason to blame CRT for poor teaching of reading, for example. Dick and Jane are hardly diverse-and about as far from phonics first or even balanced literacy as you can get. 

This notion that accurate history requires the eschewing of rigor is laughable. I wouldn't be in this area if I didn't care about rigor. Quite the opposite, these issues are COMPLEX and require the exercise of an even higher level of thinking than the simplistic muck on offer. I pay property taxes and deserve the same consideration as every other parent/family in this district.

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17 hours ago, Fritz said:

This. And again, why the push for spending time and money on CRT and DEI when they do not have the very BASICS to quailify for a high school diploma or to function in the work world? I guess it will be important for them to understand their privlege or their lack there of when they get out of high school with no marketable skills for college, tech school or work. 

This suggests that addressing the history of minorities in this country is an “extra” that isn’t part of the basics. Or would you advocate eliminating teaching any history at all?

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re "3Rs" (and standardized testing thereof) crowding out instruction of history and science

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

This suggests that addressing the history of minorities in this country is an “extra” that isn’t part of the basics. Or would you advocate eliminating teaching any history at all?

I have a good friend from college who's spent ~35 years teaching in public schools, first in an alternative high school in Brooklyn for kids in juvenile detention/ out on probation, and subsequently in an equally troubled and equally underfunded very rural district.

(Long before the train wrecks of the last 5 years) it has long been her STRONG conviction that the (testing- and state mandate-driven) emphasis on the 3R's over the last 40 years has left the nation globally uncompetitive in the sciences in particular, ill equipped to discern fact from disinformation, and doomed to repeat the mistakes of our history because we do not know the mistakes of our history.

I think about that a lot actually.

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4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re "3Rs" (and standardized testing thereof) crowding out instruction of history and science

I have a good friend from college who's spent ~35 years teaching in public schools, first in an alternative high school in Brooklyn for kids in juvenile detention/ out on probation, and subsequently in an equally troubled and equally underfunded very rural district.

(Long before the train wrecks of the last 5 years) it has long been her STRONG conviction that the (testing- and state mandate-driven) emphasis on the 3R's over the last 40 years has left the nation globally uncompetitive in the sciences in particular, ill equipped to discern fact from disinformation, and doomed to repeat the mistakes of our history because we do not know the mistakes of our history.

I think about that a lot actually.

And they have these kids six hours a day. They really can teach math, LA, history, and science. But when you spend two hours a day on test prep - the amount of time our local elementary and middle school admit to - that eats into your ability to do it right. And that emphasis on being so good a bubble tests affects all aspects of curriculum and implementation. I think back to some of the amazing conversations our teachers had with us in elementary school after reading something in our history or science text, or in literary studies, and how they allowed us to get off on that tangent because it just wasn't the end of the universe if we didn't get to spelling or penmanship today. Test prep was NOT a thing, and our test scores were WAY higher than they are now. I normally do not wax poetic about 'the good ole days', but I do think the shift towards bubble tests as a measure of proficiency was the beginning of the end of teachers being able to teach effectively much less have time to allow important discussions and debate to take place in classrooms.

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5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

And they have these kids six hours a day. They really can teach math, LA, history, and science. But when you spend two hours a day on test prep - the amount of time our local elementary and middle school admit to - that eats into your ability to do it right. And that emphasis on being so good a bubble tests affects all aspects of curriculum and implementation. I think back to some of the amazing conversations our teachers had with us in elementary school after reading something in our history or science text, or in literary studies, and how they allowed us to get off on that tangent because it just wasn't the end of the universe if we didn't get to spelling or penmanship today. Test prep was NOT a thing, and our test scores were WAY higher than they are now. I normally do not wax poetic about 'the good ole days', but I do think the shift towards bubble tests as a measure of proficiency was the beginning of the end of teachers being able to teach effectively much less have time to allow important discussions and debate to take place in classrooms.

QFT.   
 

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There is no winning formula for schools. We all simply just want a different thing. I would love a WTM style school, which I am sure would cause an uproar for many with all the dead white male authors.  Somebody wants something else. I despise socialist bend of my school, somebody despises the opposite. They can’t please us all. 
I think one thing we all agree is funding needs to be straightened out so there is no disparity between communities. We need teachers who know subject matter well. I also think we need community involvement especially in poorer districts so kids can see real living role models from their own neighborhoods. And somehow we need to at least try to produce a common narrative. 
 

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re unintended consequences of 3R emphasis and testing thereof

16 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

And they have these kids six hours a day. They really can teach math, LA, history, and science. But when you spend two hours a day on test prep - the amount of time our local elementary and middle school admit to - that eats into your ability to do it right. And that emphasis on being so good a bubble tests affects all aspects of curriculum and implementation. I think back to some of the amazing conversations our teachers had with us in elementary school after reading something in our history or science text, or in literary studies, and how they allowed us to get off on that tangent because it just wasn't the end of the universe if we didn't get to spelling or penmanship today. Test prep was NOT a thing, and our test scores were WAY higher than they are now. I normally do not wax poetic about 'the good ole days', but I do think the shift towards bubble tests as a measure of proficiency was the beginning of the end of teachers being able to teach effectively much less have time to allow important discussions and debate to take place in classrooms.

Right.

In the short term, teachers simply do not have the time to run with those kinds of deeper dives when the moments for them arise spontaneously.

Huge time blocks devoted to test prep and (very much related) lockstep state-mandated curriculum also have the effect of driving the better teachers out of the system over the longer term, some of them into private schools or related fields like teacher development / curricular development / individualized high end tutoring; and others into other careers entirely.  The best teachers tend to have good ideas about how to make content relevant, or come alive, or be adapted to different students' strengths; and the drill-and-kill repetition of a lot of standard 3R test-focused skill work does not generally lend itself to much of that individuation.

It's a tradeoff. Everything has tradeoffs. I certainly do understand the well intentioned concerns that led to assessment in the first place. We do need to measure educational outcomes; unless we measure we cannot know how we're doing or where we need to do better.

But whatever is measured, inevitably becomes the priority. Throughout the nation we have opted to measure superficial reading, basic arithmetic, and rudimentary grammar.

We have opted not to measure scientific literacy or the facts of our history.  And it shows, both in where students; instructional hours are spent, and in our citizens' ability to meet the challenges of this millennium.

 

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40 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The WTM isn’t a dead white man approach or I wouldn’t be here. I was attracted to it for its structure and method, not dead white men.

Indeed.

These boards have evolved very considerably since I first came to the party when my now-27 year old was 5.  In the early days at least half the thread topics specified "grammar-stage" "logic-stage" or "rhetoric-stage." And a lot of conversations, not just about curriculum or lesson length, referenced WTM Big Ideas of developmental stages, long chronological cycles of history, and history melded to literature.

For better and for worse -- I really do mean that -- these boards have become something else entirely.  What the boards are now is precious and rare. But a lot of folks here today are here for other reasons; I suspect many have never read Susan's work.  Which is fine.

It's a method, not a list of white men's books.  There are lists of books, but even 20 years ago she a) made considerable effort to include books centered outside the European canon and b) also made clear the lists were suggestions with the clear expectations that parents would swap and substitute as parents' preferences and kids' interests led.

Having second graders read Ruby Bridges and then write 2-5 sentences about it along with a drawing; middle schoolers read an account of the Tulsa Massacre followed by a 5-paragraph essay, and high schoolers do close reading & 5 page essay in response to Ta-Nehisi Coates' Case for Reparations is straight up WTM. 

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3 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Indeed.

These boards have evolved very considerably since I first came to the party when my now-27 year old was 5.  In the early days at least half the thread topics specified "grammar-stage" "logic-stage" or "rhetoric-stage." And a lot of conversations, not just about curriculum or lesson length, referenced WTM Big Ideas of developmental stages, long chronological cycles of history, and history melded to literature.

For better and for worse -- I really do mean that -- these boards have become something else entirely.  What the boards are now is precious and rare. But a lot of folks here today are here for other reasons; I suspect many have never read Susan's work.  Which is fine.

It's a method, not a list of white men's books.  There are lists of books, but even 20 years ago she a) made considerable effort to include books centered outside the European canon and b) also made clear the lists were suggestions with the clear expectations that parents would swap and substitute as parents' preferences and kids' interests led.

Having second graders read Ruby Bridges and then write 2-5 sentences about it along with a drawing; middle schoolers read an account of the Tulsa Massacre followed by a 5-paragraph essay, and high schoolers do close reading & 5 page essay in response to Ta-Nehisi Coates' Case for Reparations is straight up WTM. 

Precisely. This isn’t a bilateral choice, rigor or diversity, traditional western cannon or global voices. TWTM was appealing to me because I could add or substitute culturally relevant materials without sacrificing rigor where most other homeschool materials and ostensibly rigorous approaches were inextricably intertwined with dominionist ideology.

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The trouble with ditching the Canon*, due to lack of diversity, is that you ditch almost everything in our shared literary history - because like it or not, gay, disabled Black women weren't really in a position for much of history to be dominating the best seller lists. 

And unfortunately, there is still a huge amount of literary value in dead white men's literature. And English studies are about the literary. 

Besides anything else, a student can't write about The Hate U Give in the most persuasive way possible if she has no context with which to contrast it. If she is deprived of the Canon, she's deprived of access to the world of the intertext. 

*As a baby feminist, I was very keen on ditching the Canon, because I was not represented by all these men! Well, yes, sometimes not. It's still our heritage. I'm not going to self-exclude from its treasures. Talk about cutting off my nose to spite my face!

 

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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

The WTM isn’t a dead white man approach or I wouldn’t be here. I was attracted to it for its structure and method, not dead white men.

Reading selection favors old white men. If that was a reason my selection in schools, many would say that. It is simply what it is. I don’t see any history that is in either way written from the perspective of the persecuted either. Much more traditional (at least what I own of her work. Might be lacking one high school volume). In fact WTM to me is what a private school education used to be in the old times. 
 

And I am not talking about the boards. I am talking about at actual homeschool curriculum and method as outlined by WTM book. 

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re dichotomy of "ditching the canon" vs finding space for substitutions

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

The trouble with ditching the Canon*, due to lack of diversity, is that you ditch almost everything in our shared literary history - because like it or not, gay, disabled Black women weren't really in a position for much of history to be dominating the best seller lists. 

And unfortunately, there is still a huge amount of literary value in dead white men's literature. And English studies are about the literary. 

Besides anything else, a student can't write about The Hate U Give in the most persuasive way possible if she has no context with which to contrast it. If she is deprived of the Canon, she's deprived of access to the world of the intertext. 

*As a baby feminist, I was very keen on ditching the Canon, because I was not represented by all these men! Well, yes, sometimes not. It's still our heritage. I'm not going to self-exclude from its treasures. Talk about cutting off my nose to spite my face!

 

Sure. The same baby and bathwater arguments can be, and are, made about the Bible itself.

I actually rather love much of the Canon. Still, there is room to flex and make substitutions. Jewish families lean into the Crusades / Inquisition / Age of Exploration through a different lens, and there is a *very great deal* of art, literature, philosophy, and primary historical resources that make *very good substitutions.*  Paradise Lost is, indeed, a historical and cultural treasure. So is Talmud. They'll get the former in college; they won't the latter; that one is an easy trade.

And Coriolanus is considered a "lesser" play for reasons. And a whole lot of quality literature has been written that hits the same cylinders as Lord of the Flies.

Making choices around Canon isn't a matter of ditching it ALL and substituting drek. The Canon has *always* evolved over time.  SWB's list isn't the same list as well-educated white men studied in the 1700s.

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4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re dichotomy of "ditching the canon" vs finding space for substitutions

Sure. The same baby and bathwater arguments can be, and are, made about the Bible itself.

I actually rather love much of the Canon. Still, there is room to flex and make substitutions. Jewish families lean into the Crusades / Inquisition / Age of Exploration through a different lens, and there is a *very great deal* of art, literature, philosophy, and primary historical resources that make *very good substitutions.*  Paradise Lost is, indeed, a historical and cultural treasure. So is Talmud. They'll get the former in college; they won't the latter; that one is an easy trade.

And Coriolanus is considered a "lesser" play for reasons. And a whole lot of quality literature has been written that hits the same cylinders as Lord of the Flies.

Making choices around Canon isn't a matter of ditching it ALL and substituting drek. The Canon has *always* evolved over time.  SWB's list isn't the same list as well-educated white men studied in the 1700s.

There was a big kerfuffle on teacher Twitter last year about this.I guarantee you there are activist teachers whose aim is to remove canonical texts in their entirety. 

Theres a big crossover with the YA writing community. A big push to remove adult texts (canon) and replace with 'relatable' YA novels. On the one hand, ok, I guess, especially in lower grades/streams. OTOH, no! A lot of YA is not durable. Many 'difficult' texts have value and can be made accessible. 

I mean, seriously, yes, as a homeschooler I added classic women's/Indian texts to our dead white men. A lotta freedom as a homeschooler. 

That's not what's going to happen in an average English classroom. 

Idk. I think it's representative of the ditching of humanism as a guiding principle. 

I just finished reading Of Human Bondage by Somerset Maughan. If I sought to see myself represented as female in those pages, I'd be waiting a very long time. And yet the reading had value, because I saw myself represented as human, with existential concerns. 

Shared humaness is why texts endure.

We seem to be moving away from an emphasis on shared humanity. 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Kids are reading so little in high schools. My friend’s DD hasn’t read anything above middle school reading level until she got to AP Lit. What Milton, what Homer… 

It’s so upsetting. 

I see that France is mandating Latin and Greek studies in the senior years.

I agree, it's upsetting. 

But it's upsetting from the beginning, when you have kindergarten children already being left behind. Because there's no-one to give them the small group daily phonics they need. 

It's upsetting all the way through.

A minority of students get a 'good' education. 

Better, almost, to be upfront about the fact it's childcare,and a captive audience for the educational fad of the day. 

 

 

Edited by Melissa Louise
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re shared human-ness , universal stories, and finding oneself in them

21 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 ...Idk. I think it's representative of the ditching of humanism as a guiding principle. 

I just finished reading Of Human Bondage by Somerset Maughan. If I sought to see myself represented as female in those pages, I'd be waiting a very long time. And yet the reading had value, because I saw myself represented as human, with existential concerns. 

Shared humaness is why texts endure.

We seem to be moving away from an emphasis on shared humanity.

Yep, this is why I come together nearly-weekly to read the same Torah portions over and over and over, despite the difficulty most weeks in gleaning women's experience, specifically, from those particular passages.

By the same token, white grammar school kids can register the universality of the *experience of being unfairly excluded* from swimming pools or water fountains, or white high school students the universality of *a parent's grim determination that her beloved child not be subjected to what she herself endured*; better off dead.  Those are existential concerns too.  White boys can imagine themselves into shared human experiences as well as you or I can.

The challenges are limited time and finding quality resources. The high quality resources certainly do exist. But it is equally certain that finding the time is challenging.

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9 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re shared human-ness , universal stories, and finding oneself in them

Yep, this is why I come together nearly-weekly to read the same Torah portions over and over and over, despite the difficulty most weeks in gleaning women's experience, specifically, from those particular passages.

By the same token, white grammar school kids can register the universality of the *experience of being unfairly excluded* from swimming pools or water fountains, or white high school students the universality of *a parent's grim determination that her beloved child not be subjected to what she herself endured*; better off dead.  Those are existential concerns too.  White boys can imagine themselves into shared human experiences as well as you or I can.

The challenges are limited time and finding quality resources. The high quality resources certainly do exist. But it is equally certain that finding the time is challenging.

Yes, of course. 

I'm actually not OK with dumbing down English in senior years by substituting YA for classic texts. So you wanna ditch Shakespeare and put in YA? No, thank you. All children deserve access to our cultural heritage. Not just the ones heading to college. 

But if you want to supplement Shakespeare* with culturally equivalent texts, sure. Or supplement the culturally equivalent text with Shakespeare. Or read one through the lens of the other. All fine. 

*Shakespeare as an avatar for any canonical adult literature. 

I think it's sad we are telling kids that they can only see themselves in texts that line up with one aspect of their identity. That's not literature. It's not even reading. 

I'd love it if the Canon was written by working class women, I'm sure, but it wasn't. In some ways, it doesn't matter.

Because what I share with any human writer whose work endures is more than what we do not share. 

 

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We’ve been telling all kids to find themselves  in the texts of dead white men for a long time. Adding additional voices is hardly heretical and certainly not dumbing anything down. There’s nothing especially challenging about the words in Huck Finn which was a YA novel in its day.  And certainly not all available literature by diverse authors in the last 75 years is a YA text. I find it difficult to believe that folks cannot think of a single novel written since 1950 that better represents or communicates the themes of the Outsiders to the diverse student bodies of today. Note, that too is YA. The high school English classes here still read Shakespeare plus every single year. 

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5 hours ago, KSera said:

This suggests that addressing the history of minorities in this country is an “extra” that isn’t part of the basics. Or would you advocate eliminating teaching any history at all?

Oh please! Pretending that the complaints about CRT/DEI are about not wanting historically accurate history to be taught is so much BS! Repeat a lie often enough and it will become the truth I guess is the plan here. 

We have been over and over this and we have not seen one example where parents at school board meetings are complaining about this. They are complaining about the racializing of EVERYTHING and teaching kids to judge each other over their immutable characteristics be it race or sex. But carry on with pretending the whole uproar is about Ruby's book and teaching history. Meanwhile we are graduating kids that "feel heard", have established their pronouns, and their privlege ranking amongst their peers, with no hope of succeeding in college, technical school, or the job market.

The person in the OP was not at a school board meeting but rather making a FB posting. Who the heck cares about some clown's FB posts? That's a bit different than actually showing up at a school board meeting, signing up for a time to speak, and presenting his case.

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Reading selection favors old white men. If that was a reason my selection in schools, many would say that. It is simply what it is. I don’t see any history that is in either way written from the perspective of the persecuted either. Much more traditional (at least what I own of her work. Might be lacking one high school volume). In fact WTM to me is what a private school education used to be in the old times. 
 

And I am not talking about the boards. I am talking about at actual homeschool curriculum and method as outlined by WTM book. 

I am talking about the WELL-TRAINED MIND BOOK, not ancillary curricular materials. Neither of my copies/versions does what you describe. It makes suggestions, discusses core competencies and areas of study by age, and provides some guidance on scheduling/juggling.

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12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I am talking about the WELL-TRAINED MIND BOOK, not ancillary curricular materials. Neither of my copies/versions does what you describe. It makes suggestions, discusses core competencies and areas of study by age, and provides some guidance on scheduling/juggling.

Yes the book. No need to yell. It has very specific suggestions on literature. Suggestions, sure, because nobody could actually read the entire list, but the way she approaches even elementary school reading (as children’s version of the canon, which we didn’t do as much), is fairly specific. I mean if you only look at her methods (dictation, copy work….) and leave the lists out, and leave out curriculum she actually wrote (history for example), then yes, I guess you can do whatever. It’s up to you what you follow. We follow it closely, yes THE BOOK. 

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re content bans specifically limiting historically accurate history from being taught

26 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Oh please! Pretending that the complaints about CRT/DEI are about not wanting historically accurate history to be taught is so much BS! Repeat a lie often enough and it will become the truth I guess is the plan here. 

We have been over and over this and we have not seen one example where parents at school board meetings are complaining about this. ..

 

One parent example complaining about Ruby:

  • Tennessee's anti-CRT legislation, passed May 2021
  • Parent complaint filed by Moms in June 2021 against the Commissioner of the state DOE, on which (middle of p. 2) four books that invoked distress in the named/redacted second-grader are named.  One of the four: Ruby
  • The court threw out the complaint on the basis that it was complained about conduct -- that is, including Ruby in a second-grade classroom -- that was legal at the time it occurred, as the anti-CRT bill was passed AFTER the offending books had been read. But the ruling made clear that it was based on this chronology, not the "merits" of whether the legislative ban would excise Ruby from the classroom going forward.

 

But more directly to the suppressive point, one legislative example complaining about Ruby:

  • Texas' anti-CRT legislation passed last spring (see bottom of p. 5 about possible student distress)
  • Texas legislator Matt Krause, chair of Committee on General Investigating, letter to superintendents demanding they provide the number of copies, and $ spent to purchase, any of an attached list of 850 books deemed to meet distress criteria (dated 10/25/21, demanding response by 11/12/21)
  • The list of 850 books, which does, indeed include poor Ruby, along with a number of other historically accurate books aimed at older kids that I've personally read and can certainly vouch for.
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14 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re content bans specifically limiting historically accurate history from being taught

 

One parent example complaining about Ruby:

  • Tennessee's anti-CRT legislation, passed May 2021
  • Parent complaint filed by Moms in June 2021 against the Commissioner of the state DOE, on which (middle of p. 2) four books that invoked distress in the named/redacted second-grader are named.  One of the four: Ruby
  • The court threw out the complaint on the basis that it was complained about conduct -- that is, including Ruby in a second-grade classroom -- that was legal at the time it occurred, as the anti-CRT bill was passed AFTER the offending books had been read. But the ruling made clear that it was based on this chronology, not the "merits" of whether the legislative ban would excise Ruby from the classroom going forward.

 

But more directly to the suppressive point, one legislative example complaining about Ruby:

  • Texas' anti-CRT legislation passed last spring (see bottom of p. 5 about possible student distress)
  • Texas legislator Matt Krause, chair of Committee on General Investigating, letter to superintendents demanding they provide the number of copies, and $ spent to purchase, any of an attached list of 850 books deemed to meet distress criteria (dated 10/25/21, demanding response by 11/12/21)
  • The list of 850 books, which does, indeed include poor Ruby, along with a number of other historically accurate books aimed at older kids that I've personally read and can certainly vouch for.

Had they been teaching historically accurate history instead of the propaganda they got caught teaching on Zoom during the pandemic there would be no issues with any of this. The refusal by many on this board to acknowledge the propaganda being presented is the issue the majority of the parents are upset about is disingenuous at best. Every single time I mention these real complaints I am accused of "not wanting historically accurate history to be taught". No, I'm fine with history being taught factually. I am not ok with history or any other subject being taught to make one group or another to feel inferior or superior. 

Asking for number of copies etc... does not equate to not being allowed to use these books.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes the book. No need to yell. It has very specific suggestions on literature. Suggestions, sure, because nobody could actually read the entire list, but the way she approaches even elementary school reading (as children’s version of the canon, which we didn’t do as much), is fairly specific. I mean if you only look at her methods (dictation, copy work….) and leave the lists out, and leave out curriculum she actually wrote (history for example), then yes, I guess you can do whatever. It’s up to you what you follow. We follow it closely, yes THE BOOK. 

I suppose it’s a little like getting a recipe from someone else. Results will vary depending on how fresh/seasonal the ingredients are, how skilled the cook is, and then also the proportions and guidance within the recipe itself. I could take the same bolognese recipe as you and follow it to the letter and not achieve something that pleased the palates of my family. SWB says, repeatedly, in the text that it’s not a fixed guide and even acknowledged the ways in which it was more/less effective for her own children because, as with all recipes, results may vary. Reaching the children you have, just like pleasing the palates of your family, is not one size fits all. Teaching is, like cooking, equal parts art and science, not a factory production line.

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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

I suppose it’s a little like getting a recipe from someone else. Results will vary depending on how fresh/seasonal the ingredients are, how skilled the cook is, and then also the proportions and guidance within the recipe itself. I could take the same bolognese recipe as you and follow it to the letter and not achieve something that pleased the palates of my family. SWB says, repeatedly, in the text that it’s not a fixed guide and even acknowledged the ways in which it was more/less effective for her own children because, as with all recipes, results may vary. Reaching the children you have, just like pleasing the palates of your family, is not one size fits all. Teaching is, like cooking, equal parts art and science, not a factory production line.

I am not sure what we are talking about anymore. Sure, we all adjust methods and approaches as it suits are kids. We didn’t do classical languages as she suggested. But again, to me her four year cycles, her Great Books approach, her writing/grammar and history books are what make WTM. Her reading lists are at the core. I think. All I am saying is I am a fan of it as it stands now.

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The reading lists were my least favorite part of TWTM.  For high school, I'm on board with picking and choosing from both the Great Books tradition and some more modern/ diverse authors.  But it seemed ludicrous to me that the best way to prepare third graders to read Jane Austen in high school was for them to read an abridged form as opposed to reading some of the many, many wonderful good children's books. 

ETA:  There were a few exceptions.  I read my kids Mary Pope Osborne's Odyssey, because frankly, The Odyssey is a very kid accessible story.  And we did Tales from Shakespeare.  But most of their reading was children's books, although due to my kids' individual weirdnesses and inability to tolerate any form of interpersonal tension, we read a lot of old kids' books until later.  My kids could handle E. Nesbit but not Ramona.  

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4 hours ago, Fritz said:

Oh please! Pretending that the complaints about CRT/DEI are about not wanting historically accurate history to be taught is so much BS! Repeat a lie often enough and it will become the truth I guess is the plan here. 

We have been over and over this and we have not seen one example where parents at school board meetings are complaining about this. They are complaining about the racializing of EVERYTHING and teaching kids to judge each other over their immutable characteristics be it race or sex. But carry on with pretending the whole uproar is about Ruby's book and teaching history. Meanwhile we are graduating kids that "feel heard", have established their pronouns, and their privlege ranking amongst their peers, with no hope of succeeding in college, technical school, or the job market.

The person in the OP was not at a school board meeting but rather making a FB posting. Who the heck cares about some clown's FB posts? That's a bit different than actually showing up at a school board meeting, signing up for a time to speak, and presenting his case.

Pam did my homework for me and posted some examples. I find it baffling that you would call out saying people don't want accurate history to be taught as BS when that is the very thing happening as a result of these "CRT bans". If all the people who have been going to school board meetings (and running for office) to complain about CRT in the schools are not actually wanting the kinds of legislation being passed that is being passed in response to their uproar, they should be the first ones running back to their school boards and legislators saying, "No! This is not what we meant!" I have seen none of that. If they were doing that, I would take their concerns a lot more seriously.

3 hours ago, Fritz said:

Had they been teaching historically accurate history instead of the propaganda they got caught teaching on Zoom during the pandemic there would be no issues with any of this. The refusal by many on this board to acknowledge the propaganda being presented is the issue the majority of the parents are upset about is disingenuous at best. Every single time I mention these real complaints I am accused of "not wanting historically accurate history to be taught". No, I'm fine with history being taught factually. I am not ok with history or any other subject being taught to make one group or another to feel inferior or superior. 

Asking for number of copies etc... does not equate to not being allowed to use these books.

The vast majority of people have agreed about getting rid of the poor methodology like privilege walks and rank your privilege and that kind of stuff. Until people who say they are just anti-CRT speak out about the bans that are preventing the accurate teaching of history and the inclusion of minority, it's empty for them to say they are "fine" with history being taught accurately. How many slave auction and runaway slave games have the anti-CRT folks been as upset about and complained to school boards about as they have about privilege walks and rank your privilege? 

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

I am not sure what we are talking about anymore. Sure, we all adjust methods and approaches as it suits are kids. We didn’t do classical languages as she suggested. But again, to me her four year cycles, her Great Books approach, her writing/grammar and history books are what make WTM. Her reading lists are at the core. I think. All I am saying is I am a fan of it as it stands now.

What I’m saying is that we don’t all define Great Books (TM) the same way and the text, itself, acknowledges that. I actually do include classical languages tho, lol, because they’re so helpful with spoken Latin-based languages and old English texts.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

Pam did my homework for me and posted some examples. I find it baffling that you would call out saying people don't want accurate history to be taught as BS when that is the very thing happening as a result of these "CRT bans". If all the people who have been going to school board meetings (and running for office) to complain about CRT in the schools are not actually wanting the kinds of legislation being passed that is being passed in response to their uproar, they should be the first ones running back to their school boards and legislators saying, "No! This is not what we meant!" I have seen none of that. If they were doing that, I would take their concerns a lot more seriously.

The vast majority of people have agreed about getting rid of the poor methodology like privilege walks and rank your privilege and that kind of stuff. Until people who say they are just anti-CRT speak out about the bans that are preventing the accurate teaching of history and the inclusion of minority, it's empty for them to say they are "fine" with history being taught accurately. How many slave auction and runaway slave games have the anti-CRT folks been as upset about and complained to school boards about as they have about privilege walks and rank your privilege? 

The last 'slave auction's I had any sat in was 1987, and I boycotted it. And when hauled into the principal's office, told him why.

I have zero impact on white Americans who continue to do this in the 21st C, but it's absolutely possible to be anti both. 

I haven't actually heard anyone say the diAngelo-esque seep into the classroom should be gotten rid of.

I hear motte and Bailey stuff.

Bailey - it doesn't happen or only v rarely.

Motte - what, liddle yt kids can't handle the truth? #whitefragility.

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1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

The last 'slave auction's I had any sat in was 1987, and I boycotted it. And when hauled into the principal's office, told him why.

I have zero impact on white Americans who continue to do this in the 21st C, but it's absolutely possible to be anti both. 

I haven't actually heard anyone say the diAngelo-esque seep into the classroom should be gotten rid of.

I hear motte and Bailey stuff.

Bailey - it doesn't happen or only v rarely.

Motte - what, liddle yt kids can't handle the truth? #whitefragility.

Yeah, well, 40 years later, it’s *STILL* happening (documented) in American schools which results in commentary that “privilege walks” happen rarely (also truth) and “little white kids are being protected from truth (also true). The alternative perspective is what happens when majority voices are repeatedly prioritized over minority ones. These issues are perpetual and the school-specific ones, annual. Individual issues should be dealt with individually. Systemic ones should be addressed systemically. I have seen ZERO evidence that “privilege walks” are systemic, nationwide issues.

Just for perspective/kicks, Google “SLAVE AUCTION SCHOOL” versus “PRIVILEGE WALK” or even “PRIVILEGE SCHOOL” and see what you get, add U.S. if it helps. Click NEWS.
 

Are the entities reputable? Are they neutral, left or right? Are the anecdotes corroborated or replicated? Are they national?

Totally over the false equivalence and amplification of voices that don’t have any kids in public schools/skin in the game.

 

ETA: when college entrants identify “The Hate You Give” as their most influential read they’re signaling the rise of a new, shared experience and seminal work that they can relate to and analyze and discuss in the same way my grandparents’ generation may have been moved by Huck Finn. Time marches on. Most HS reads are relatable and relevant for a reason. These kids are internally/self-focused and anything that draws them in/out, draws their attention to other experiences, is welcome. YA fiction is popular for a reason. It’s developmentally appropriate.

Personally, I want my kids to read some of the crusty stuff so they appreciate that there is nothing new under the sun, not for their literary value (you can teach literary devices with anything), and to imagine the oral histories and stories that were never recorded but conveyed the same message(s). I’m not trying to imprint ‘western’ thought but to inspire their own creativity.

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13 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

What I’m saying is that we don’t all define Great Books (TM) the same way and the text, itself, acknowledges that. I actually do include classical languages tho, lol, because they’re so helpful with spoken Latin-based languages and old English texts.

Yes, you can do whatever you want. Nobody prevents anybody from modifying anything. Of course it’s just a list. 

My point was/is that I love her lists, the ones she included in her book the way the are, unchanged. I would pay dearly for a school that follows closely her recommendations, unchanged. That’s all.
And of course one can define what they value and teach in a way they see fit. Absolutely. That’s why we all homeschool, isn’t it? I wouldn’t if I could find something I was happy with in actual schools. 
 

Yes, I really regret not pushing Latin, but my kids, especially older, really don’t take to languages easily. I just didn’t have that kid at home. ☺️

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On 11/28/2021 at 6:33 AM, Dmmetler said:

I honestly cannot think of a book that has had any impact whatsoever that hasn’t caused some discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any form of psychological distress, except for maybe some early picture books. The ones which don’t also tend to be about as deep as a mud puddle.

Schindler's List ripped my guts out.  I have still only seen it once, and have not been able to return to it.  And...my mother was a German citizen, a young person during the war.  Her mother, my Oma, was one of the German citizens who just kept their head down and eyes closed.  I also have good memories of her making cookies and fussing over me as a child.   I have dozens of German family still living in Germany. 

It is hard German history to learn that the majority of German citizens, whatever their reasons, did nothing to stop what happened, and that many, many supported it.  That is a hard and ugly truth.  Can I understand the reasons (understand without excusing)?  Yes.  Some of them.  But it is still a hard and ugly truth that there is no excuse for. 

I did not and do not feel ashamed OF MYSELF, or any unchangeable aspect of myself (such as my German heritage).  I felt a general sense of shame as a human being, that I am part of a group that was capable of behaving like that to other human beings.   A sense that I needed to keep my eyes open for all the things that led up to what happened.  

How is what is happening here in the US different from a hypothetical movement to water down holocaust history so German people don't feel bad about themselves?  So that they can be proud to be Germans again?

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On 11/26/2021 at 5:27 PM, Roadrunner said:

I do wonder though if somebody actually did a good statistical study on what percentage of population actually objects to mating seahorses or brain pop thanksgiving video, or Ruby Bridges book what we would come up with? I would be shocked if it’s more than a fringe group despite all the noise. 1%? 2%? 5%? Can’t be more. Just can’t. 

I read about this once, and the problem is this:  Each group recognizes that tiny percentage of their own group is an anomaly, an outlier.  But when viewing the opposite group, they view that tiny, incredibly vocal percentage as representative of the group.  

In other words, predictably, we give our own groups more grace than the opposing group.  The media exacerbates this by giving that tiny percentage the loudest voice, making it seem more prevalent that it is.  

 

ETA, to respond to your post directly, probably the same percentage who are doing privilege walks and having white students apologize for their whiteness.

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10 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Schindler's List ripped my guts out.  I have still only seen it once, and have not been able to return to it.  And...my mother was a German citizen, a young person during the war.  Her mother, my Oma, was one of the German citizens who just kept their head down and eyes closed.  I also have good memories of her making cookies and fussing over me as a child.   I have dozens of German family still living in Germany. 

It is hard German history to learn that the majority of German citizens, whatever their reasons, did nothing to stop what happened, and that many, many supported it.  That is a hard and ugly truth.  Can I understand the reasons (understand without excusing)?  Yes.  Some of them.  But it is still a hard and ugly truth that there is no excuse for. 

I did not and do not feel ashamed OF MYSELF, or any unchangeable aspect of myself (such as my German heritage).  I felt a general sense of shame as a human being, that I am part of a group that was capable of behaving like that to other human beings.   A sense that I needed to keep my eyes open for all the things that led up to what happened.  

How is what is happening here in the US different from a hypothetical movement to water down holocaust history so German people don't feel bad about themselves?  So that they can be proud to be Germans again?

I think it is because white America has been steeped in a "we are better than everybody else in the whole world" propaganda which began extra in earnest during the Cold War. So now people having been taught such a one sided view, and a view that celebrates nationalism from a specific vantage point and not patriotism, has created a large group of people who cannot emotionally handle having the viewpoint that their country is the very bestest ever challenged. They are not prepared to see America as the mixed bag, historical salad of bad and good that it is.

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So this happened during a science class in Seattle during a discussion on magnets. This teacher thinks he knows more than the jury that actually heard the Rittenhouse case. And as he had a captive audience he felt the need to spew his opinion, not for debate, but for indoctrination. When a student raised their hand he told them to put their hand down it was his turn. 

https://mynorthwest.com/3253161/rantz-seattle-area-teacher-recorded-during-vulgar-anti-police-kyle-rittenhouse-rant/

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#1-this is a clear violation of every PS teaching contract I've ever signed. It would equally be a violation if a science teacher praised the Rittenhouse jury. There are provisions in the contract for dismissing a teacher for this, and for pulling or flagging licenses, and the video/transcript would be reviewed, as well as interviews conducted with students in the room at the time. Even in courses where current events are on scope (or if this happened during a homeroom or other non-class period), it would be a requirement that the teacher NOT share their political views in most contracts. This is honestly one reason why I am very, very in favor of cameras in school settings. It protects both sides when something like this is alleged. 

#2-this is not an example of CRT or, indeed, anything in the school science curriculum. 

#3-this is irrelevant when it comes to laws that are affecting what is taught in history and literature classes and what books are shelved in school libraries. 

 

 

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Pausing to note the concerns of the majority of teachers in the trenches right now. I have seen these issues in our district as well. Kids with no home training and/or boundaries are damaging property and in desperate need of mental health services. Meanwhile, their parents are arguing about "CRT". We have had multiple unscheduled 4-day weeks this year b/c of staffing issues and parents are asked to provide transportation for everything. Lunches at a 2K student high school have only one serving line open so some students are still going without (FREE due to pandemic funding) food. Due to TikTok-inspired vandalism, bathrooms  have been closed school-wide. We have much bigger issues than faux-CRT outrage. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/us/central-bucks-school-board-politics-pennsylvania.html#commentsContainer

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11 hours ago, Fritz said:

So this happened during a science class in Seattle during a discussion on magnets. This teacher thinks he knows more than the jury that actually heard the Rittenhouse case. And as he had a captive audience he felt the need to spew his opinion, not for debate, but for indoctrination. When a student raised their hand he told them to put their hand down it was his turn. 

https://mynorthwest.com/3253161/rantz-seattle-area-teacher-recorded-during-vulgar-anti-police-kyle-rittenhouse-rant/

Teachers that act unprofessionally and out of line should be disciplined.  How would this be solved by anti-CRT laws?  That's part of what the rest of us don't understand, how so much is getting lumped together that's not related.

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re how would this incident/ others like it be solved by anti=CRT laws?

9 hours ago, goldberry said:

Teachers that act unprofessionally and out of line should be disciplined.  How would this be solved by anti-CRT laws?  That's part of what the rest of us don't understand, how so much is getting lumped together that's not related.

The point of the legislation is not to solve incidents like this.

The point is...

1638428308_rufoonCRT.png.b136f78b77bb90fc4e0c1b3c0a96de82.png

.to amplify every outrage in the newspaper and to *label that outrage as CRT.*

Then use that outrage as fuel,

to propel legislation that bans history and literature,

to precipitate fundraising for dark money PACs and candidates devoted to upholding the status quo power,

and to precipitate the candidacies to offices from local BoEs (last November) to Secretaries of State.

 

That is what Rufo and Tucker have explicitly said out loud.

 

 

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There is a double standard. If someone crosses the border, illegally, and then is given a free home, while people who worked hard and cannot afford a lot for themselves go without, or homeless people or veterans who fought for this country go homeless, without food, and everything else, that is just called compassion. Anyone who objects is considered evil. But when people come to this country when there was no border, and "steals" food that was left behind in a seemingly abandoned place when they were dying, and then turns around and those who survived have a big feast a year later, that is called white supremacy and evil. It is a complete double standard and not okay. The only reason to called the Pilgrims is the color of their skin. The fact is, they sacrificed A LOT to go to a new land and try to make a life for themselves where it was not just about collecting welfare. The stories of many who came to this continent in the 1600 and 1700's were ones of people who were very hardworking and sacrificing. And for the record, this video does not make it clear that the Native Americans were not just one big happy nation. Nope. They were many many smaller and often warring tribes, many of whom were nomadic and did not claim one area as their own. This video took so much out of context in an attempt to undo any good that was done by pointing out how bad bad bad the white people are. Guarantee, when Brain Pop covered MLK, it did not cover his drug abuse, his abusing women, cheating on his wife, or abusing his wife. 

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I am very confident that parents who object to teaching K-3 (the age this video is intended for) kids that "some people aren't nice", and "When you move into a place that other people already live, it causes problems for them that you have to work out" would also object to teaching kids about spousal abuse and adultery. 

 

And, given the fact that when I've taught this age group, I have almost always had at least one or two kids a year proudly talk about being Native American-because, after all, they were born here (as opposed to actually having family who is Native American-I haven't taught in a part of the country where that is common due to the Trail of Tears), I don't think it is the case that the typical 2nd grader viewing this video will automatically decide that they're a Pilgrim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

#1-this is a clear violation of every PS teaching contract I've ever signed. It would equally be a violation if a science teacher praised the Rittenhouse jury. There are provisions in the contract for dismissing a teacher for this, and for pulling or flagging licenses, and the video/transcript would be reviewed, as well as interviews conducted with students in the room at the time. Even in courses where current events are on scope (or if this happened during a homeroom or other non-class period), it would be a requirement that the teacher NOT share their political views in most contracts. This is honestly one reason why I am very, very in favor of cameras in school settings. It protects both sides when something like this is alleged. 

#2-this is not an example of CRT or, indeed, anything in the school science curriculum. 

#3-this is irrelevant when it comes to laws that are affecting what is taught in history and literature classes and what books are shelved in school libraries. 

 

 

No, it isn't CRT, meant to post under ML post about teacher's misuse of having a captive audience. 

Correct, it has nothing to do with Science. And I completely agree with cameras in the classroom. That would put an end to most of these issues. I now see a positive for giving kids phones outside of emergency contact with parents and 911. I hope more parents will talk to their kids about videoing or at least recording these events in the classroom.

This happening in Seattle, I'm willing to bet absolutely nothing will happen to the teacher for this behavior.

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6 hours ago, Janeway said:

There is a double standard. If someone crosses the border, illegally, and then is given a free home, while people who worked hard and cannot afford a lot for themselves go without, or homeless people or veterans who fought for this country go homeless, without food, and everything else, that is just called compassion. Anyone who objects is considered evil. But when people come to this country when there was no border, and "steals" food that was left behind in a seemingly abandoned place when they were dying, and then turns around and those who survived have a big feast a year later, that is called white supremacy and evil. It is a complete double standard and not okay. The only reason to called the Pilgrims is the color of their skin. The fact is, they sacrificed A LOT to go to a new land and try to make a life for themselves where it was not just about collecting welfare. The stories of many who came to this continent in the 1600 and 1700's were ones of people who were very hardworking and sacrificing. And for the record, this video does not make it clear that the Native Americans were not just one big happy nation. Nope. They were many many smaller and often warring tribes, many of whom were nomadic and did not claim one area as their own. This video took so much out of context in an attempt to undo any good that was done by pointing out how bad bad bad the white people are. Guarantee, when Brain Pop covered MLK, it did not cover his drug abuse, his abusing women, cheating on his wife, or abusing his wife. 

The video called it stealing.  It did not call it white supremacy or evil.  It did not say or do anything to point out how "bad bad bad white people are" other than telling the story of what happened, which in fact left out many ugly details to be age appropriate and to NOT dwell unnecessarily on a complex area.  You are literally inserting ideas yourself.   Regarding history of Native Americans and different tribes, etc., how does that fit with a story of the history of Thanksgiving?  

 

 

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16 hours ago, goldberry said:

Teachers that act unprofessionally and out of line should be disciplined.  How would this be solved by anti-CRT laws?  That's part of what the rest of us don't understand, how so much is getting lumped together that's not related.

I think most is us are anti anti-CRT laws. 

For me, I think it's more that a philosophy that reifies race is being propagated in education, leading to lack of professionalism in the classroom. 

I'm not an avatar for some dude who wants books banned. 

I want admin to use their brains and choose better ways of 'educating' staff than the current trends in DEI. 

And the main reason I want this to happen is that I think the current approach runs the risk of creating more racism, not less. 

The opposite of this approach is described here:

https://medium.com/truth-in-between/theory-of-racelessness-db40e2e33edf

(article by woman of colour - basically she doesn't believe it's possible to rehabilitate the concept of race. Instead she proposes an eliminativist, sceptical position which seeks to undo race altogether). 

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