Hydrogen peroxide in nebulizer for covid 😡

[kbutton]

17 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

While some hospitals have infusion sites on their campuses, the rule, at least in my area, is that hospitals will NOT give infusions once someone is admitted. 

If you've been admitted, you are probably too sick for the treatment.

8 hours ago, Acadie said:

There's a window of opportunity for monoclonal antibodies that passes

It's my understanding that the window is not about time, but about disease severity. If you get to the point of needing oxygen, you're too late. Just in case people were thinking it was solely about time passing. 

[BeachGal]

9 hours ago, Frances said:

How is it simultaneously not being used in the US and videotaped being used in the US?

How do you know it’s not being studied in the US? How do you know it’s not being discussed by medical professionals in the US? I’ll take your word that info on it is being removed from social media. But personally, I don’t see something being removed from social media as evidence that’s it not being discussed by healthcare professionals or studied. Then again, I don’t choose to get my medical advice from social media, so maybe I’m an outlier.

I have decided to respond again since you have decided to keep my quote up. That is fine. I will engage and answer your questions.

When I say it is not being used, I mean as part of a hospital or institutional protocol in the US. It is being used by some individual MDs in the US but they are not legally allowed to say they are offering ozone therapy as a potential treatment for Covid. Unless a patient knows about its use elsewhere and who offers it, they are effectively shut out of the treatment altogether here in the US. Providers who do advertise it as a treatment for Covid will receive a tersely-worded letter from a governing agency stating that if they don’t comply, there will be consequences. I know two MDs who received these letters, one of which I posted earlier, and for the sake of their privacy, am not going to post them here. I can somewhat agree with the agency’s reasoning here but during a pandemic with a novel virus running rampant it doesn't seem wise to ignore a relatively simple treatment.

Despite the risk, some MDs did videotape their Covid patients, with their consent, at various points while they received ozone autohemotherapy. They took the chance because they saw firsthand how well it worked noting that symptoms often abated quickly, even during treatment. (True for long Covid, too.) These videos were uploaded to YouTube and subsequently removed but not by the healthcare provider.

When so many are dying or dealing with long Covid and our economy is suffering, it doesn't make sense to not be more open about ozone therapy. Why does our media ignore it or portray it as some kooky treatment. It isn’t. If you watched Dr. Hyman’s interview, Tordiglione discusses how incredibly safe and effective it is. It has been used in Italy for most of the pandemic on numerous Covid patients who opted to try it. We should be openly offering it as well at least as an optional treatment. I see no good reason to let people suffer or die if a safe treatment is available.

In Hyman’s interview, Tordiglione explained what he thinks might be the reason we do not use it in the US. He said that in 1997 the FDA claimed ozone therapy would not be allowed because it was dangerous to breathe in. Well, of course that is true but breathing in ozone is never advised and equipment and procedures have been designed with great care. I safely generate it for myself when necessary and have never had a problem. So for some reason, maybe a misunderstanding, our protocols do not include ozone therapy here in the US even during a pandemic when there is evidence that it works well as a treatment elsewhere.

Regarding studies, I have not found any being conducted in the US except for one in Florida that appears to be shelved. Feel free to link any here if you know of any.

Regarding using social media as a means to inquire or share and gather information, I see nothing inherently wrong if reliable sources are provided. MDs and researchers are doing this themselves.

I am not in the least bit anti-vax, btw. Far from it. However, as of yet, we really don't have reliable treatments that are easy to administer at all stages of a Covid infection. Patients are suffering and dying and HCWs caring for them are horribly overwhelmed. We should be offering this.

Edited October 30, 2021 by BeachGal
corrections

[Corraleno]

@BeachGal Do you know if there are any really solid RCTs on this? I've been goggling around and am not finding much.

Very small study from India with 10 patients, but there was no control group and they were given a ton of other drugs and treatments, including steroids, ABX, and antivirals, along with the ozone therapy, and the result was that all 10 patients with moderate covid were discharged from the hospital in an average of 10 days.

Small Turkish study which found no statistically significant difference for patients in ICU, but did find a small statistically significant difference for patients who were not in ICU, although the "control group" for that study was just 18 patients who refused to be in the treatment group.

Another Indian study, this one had a proper control, with 30 people in each group. The OZ group were discharged from the hospital on average one day earlier and had no deaths or patients in ICU, vs 10% of the non-OZ group that were in ICU or died. (ETA: this study used "ozonized rectal insufflation and minor auto haemotherapy" so slightly different than the studies that just treat blood.)

These are somewhat positive results, but they don't seem so overwhelmingly positive that the FDA would approve this treatment on the evidence so far, when monoclonal antibody treatment seems to be significantly more effective and only requires a single treatment, vs ozone therapy which requires daily treatments over the course of a week.  Now if there are good studies out there showing it is effective in treating long covid, then that seems definitely worth pursuing, but it just seems to me that the evidence for monoclonal antibody treatments, and the ease of administration, currently outweighs the evidence for ozone therapy, so I don't think its a big conspiracy thing that its not being used in the US.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Corraleno

[Tree Frog]

29 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

 

 

 

I have appreciated hearing your perspective on several different threads. Thank you for sharing them.

[BeachGal]

18 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

@BeachGal Do you know if there are any really solid RCTs on this? I've been goggling around and am not finding much.

Very small study from India with 10 patients, but there was no control group and they were given a ton of other drugs and treatments, including steroids, ABX, and antivirals, along with the ozone therapy, and the result was that all 10 patients with moderate covid were discharged from the hospital in an average of 10 days.

Small Turkish study which found no statistically significant difference for patients in ICU, but did find a small statistically significant difference for patients who were not in ICU, although the "control group" for that study was just 18 patients who refused to be in the treatment group.

Another Indian study, this one had a proper control, with 30 people in each group. The OZ group were discharged from the hospital on average one day earlier and had no deaths or patients in ICU, vs 10% of the non-OZ group that were in ICU or died. (ETA: this study used "ozonized rectal insufflation and minor auto haemotherapy" so slightly different than the studies that just treat blood.)

These are somewhat positive results, but they don't seem so overwhelmingly positive that the FDA would approve this treatment on the evidence so far, when monoclonal antibody treatment seems to be significantly more effective and only requires a single treatment, vs ozone therapy which requires daily treatments over the course of a week.  Now if there are good studies out there showing it is effective in treating long covid, then that seems definitely worth pursuing, but it just seems to me that the evidence for monoclonal antibody treatments, and the ease of administration, currently outweighs the evidence for ozone therapy, so I don't think its a big conspiracy thing that its not being used in the US.

I’d have to watch again but I’m pretty sure Tordiglione mentioned Italy was conducting an RCT in that interview. He and Hyman were discussing case studies and how we need the RCTs. I think it was toward the beginning. The interview was done almost a year ago so you’d think more information would be available. I can’t find it either.

Early on, the WHO had listed ozone trials and studies at their site that anyone could access.

I know Matt Cook, an MD in California, is designing studies that he’d like to conduct on reservations in Montana where he’s from. Not just for Covid but other issues as well. He’s trying to jump through all of the FDA hoops.

I don’t follow ozone all that closely for Covid anymore. We still use it if a symptom appears and are now experimenting with the oils on our teeth and gums. My interest in it initially was to use it as a backup plan for my Dupuytren’s nodules on my right hand if they progressed. Turns out they regressed. So when Covid arrived, I had already read enough to know it might be worth a try. That’s when I bought my own generator and tank and the self experiments began.

I don't know why Italy is giving only one passes. Maybe because they’re quicker. Here in the US, MDs often give a 10-pass in their office, fewer if they think that will suffice, and it’s often all that’s necessary.

It just distresses me that people don’t know about it and worry someone might die. I shouldn't let it bother me but it does.

I’m not against the monoclonal antibodies at all (or other treatments that are in the works). They're pretty fantastic and I think we will see a whole slew of new treatments and possible some different vaccines, maybe a nasal vax. I’d love to see ozone therapy used as well. Maybe it will be eventually.

[Melissa in Australia]

On 10/29/2021 at 3:08 PM, PeterPan said:

The bummer is the monoclonal antibodies need to be started pretty quickly. I don't know, that's the part that blows my mind. We had a friend (80s) just pass from covid and this person refused both the vax and the treatments. I get the vax thing (even if I don't agree), but skipping the treatments just makes zero sense to me. 

Lots of older people in their 80s and older refuse medical treatments for all things. It is a personal choice to not prolong their life. It isn’t necessarily a COVID thing. My great grandfather even had legal documents drawn up to make sure he didn’t have medical treatment after he got pneumonia . Called it the old mans friend. He was 97 and died 20 years ago, so way before this pandemic

[PeterPan]

15 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Lots of older people in their 80s and older refuse medical treatments for all things. It is a personal choice to not prolong their life. It isn’t necessarily a COVID thing.

Except that when they get covid and can't breathe, they go to the hospital anyway and go into ICU for weeks and still die. Oh, sure my friend refused the stage 3 full ventilator, saying they'd only accept levels 1 and 2 (canula and bipap), but they sure weren't willing to sit and home and suffocate to avoid costing society $$$$$$$$$. The principles are completely inconsistent there. If you mean you're ready to die, own it and do it. But no, reality was they wanted treatment, wanted to know if they could get well, and didn't like how it felt. They could have had regeneron, turned it down. Could have had a free vaccine, turned it down. But by gum our country has to pay up $$$$$$$ to make them feel better after all that refusal. 

[Martha in GA]

7 hours ago, BeachGal said:

My interest in it initially was to use it as a backup plan for my Dupuytren’s nodules on my right hand if they progressed. Turns out they regressed.

@BeachGal I tried to private message you about this, but it said you couldn't accept messages. Could you private message me? Thanks

[kbutton]

On 10/30/2021 at 1:35 AM, PeterPan said:

Except that when they get covid and can't breathe, they go to the hospital anyway and go into ICU for weeks and still die. Oh, sure my friend refused the stage 3 full ventilator, saying they'd only accept levels 1 and 2 (canula and bipap), but they sure weren't willing to sit and home and suffocate to avoid costing society $$$$$$$$$. The principles are completely inconsistent there. If you mean you're ready to die, own it and do it. But no, reality was they wanted treatment, wanted to know if they could get well, and didn't like how it felt. They could have had regeneron, turned it down. Could have had a free vaccine, turned it down. But by gum our country has to pay up $$$$$$$ to make them feel better after all that refusal. 

DH is seeing treatment refusal at work too--not sure if it's been a thing all along or just recently. They don't want the antibodies, and possibly even other treatments (he didn't get that specific). 

[busymama7]

25 minutes ago, kbutton said:

DH is seeing treatment refusal at work too--not sure if it's been a thing all along or just recently. They don't want the antibodies, and possibly even other treatments (he didn't get that specific). 

I unfortunately are "friends" with some major deniers and what went around social media a month or so ago was to not go to the hospital for covid because it's the treatments that are actually killing people not covid.  Specifically the drug remisvider.  

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, busymama7 said:

I unfortunately are "friends" with some major deniers and what went around social media a month or so ago was to not go to the hospital for covid because it's the treatments that are actually killing people not covid.  Specifically the drug remisvider.  

I have seen similar. I have mostly unfriended or unfollowed people in this camp, but sometimes you end up commenting on the post of someone else, and there they are...I last saw this in the form of a video that was an abomination. 

[wathe]

On 10/29/2021 at 1:33 AM, KSera said:

I didn’t say nebulizing sodium hypochlorite. I said bleach in the colloquial sense, as hydrogen peroxide is used here as hair bleach. Choosing to do that but not accept any of well tested preventative or treatment methods because one is worried they might be harmful still makes no sense to me. This is where misinformation has gotten to people and led them astray. 

Right.

Peroxide absolutely is marketed as colorsafe bleach.  Also called non-chlorine bleach.  Bleach can mean either sodium hypochlorite or hydrogen peroxide.

[Corraleno]

The claim is that it's remdesivir, not covid, that causes organs to shut down, and hospitals give it to you in order to force you into dialysis and intubation, because they make more money that way. HCWs are purposely withholding ivermectin because they know it will cure you quickly, and they lose money by curing people instead of killing them slowly over a period of weeks or months. (And they need to keep the fake death rate high to justify the mask and vax mandates, which are designed to turn us into obedient sheep in preparation for the commie-fascist-socialist New World Order).

Edited October 31, 2021 by Corraleno
missing word

[goldberry]

Interesting reading about ozone therapy.  Seems like it could have some potential, but definitely not being used "all over the place" successfully.  That's the thing is that you only have so much time to access treatment if you're in real trouble.  If you are sick and decide to try ozone therapy, even if you find a provider, that's time that could have been spent trying monoclonal antibodies which have a great deal more scientific support.

There are therapies out there with potential, therapies that may really help someone, depending on the circumstances.  But I don't think it is some conspiracy that keeps them out of the mainstream.  Doctors are rightfully going to focus on what has the most solid evidence behind it, over the widest sample groups.  There are studies using ivermectin (medically dosed and supervised) right now.  No one is hiding ivermectin from people.  They are just waiting for more real evidence showing risk vs benefit.  There is no one thing that could cure everyone but doctors are hiding it.

I have tried and subscribe to quite a few alternative-style treatments that have worked for me.  For anything serious (Covid, cancer, etc.) I would likely follow the approach recommended by most doctors, and supplement with alternative strategies that I knew to be safe and that would not interfere with conventional medical treatment.  I mention this to show I am not ANTI-alternative medicine by any means.  But when people are dying, you can't just throw dozens of treatments at them and see what sticks.  You have to follow the hard science.

[KSera]

43 minutes ago, kbutton said:

DH is seeing treatment refusal at work too--not sure if it's been a thing all along or just recently. They don't want the antibodies, and possibly even other treatments (he didn't get that specific). 

I'm hearing this too, and it seems to be the extreme form of the same mentality that caused people to first minimize/deny covid, then to refuse vaccination, and now to refuse treatment once they do fall sick. People following misinformation and thinking that makes them "not sheep" and instead being led right off the cliff like lemmings. 😞

[goldberry]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The claim is that it's remdesivir, not covid, that causes organs to shut down, and hospitals give it to you in order to force you into dialysis and intubation, because they make more money that way. HCWs are purposely withholding ivermectin because they know it will cure you quickly, and they lose money by curing people instead of killing them slowly over a period of weeks or months. (And they need to keep the fake death rate high to justify the mask and vax mandates, which are designed to turn us into obedient sheep in preparation the commie-fascist-socialist New World Order).

This is 100% true.  A family member was hospitalized with Covid and they discovered he had a blood clot.  He almost lost his leg and would have except for the excellent care he received.  The family INSISTS that the clot came from the remdesivir, not from Covid.   According to family, he is lucky the HOSPITAL didn't kill him. I'm grieving for the healthcare workers who work their tails off trying to save people only to be treated like that.  

[BeachGal]

Ozone therapy is not new. It was used before antibiotics even here in the US. Recently it was used to treat Ebola a few years ago.

[KSera]

37 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Ozone therapy is not new. It was used before antibiotics even here in the US. Recently it was used to treat Ebola a few years ago.

A treatment not being new doesn’t make it automatically an approved treatment for a novel use, though. It still needs data to figure out if it’s any more helpful than the things that have been found to help so far before it’s used instead of those things. I think @goldberry’s post a couple above this one explained that well in saying doctors can’t just throw a bunch of treatments at patients and see what sticks. And especially not in the case of early treatments that have to be done before someone is really sick.

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Ozone therapy is not new. It was used before antibiotics even here in the US. Recently it was used to treat Ebola a few years ago.

But in a way what that says is "We've generally used this technology when we didn't have any better treatments for that type of disease." And right now monoclonal antibodies seem to be more effective for covid and are easier to administer. OTOH, we don't seem to have good effective treatments for long covid, so if ozone therapy is showing potential for treating long covid, I would love to see some good RCTs on that.

 

[BeachGal]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

But in a way what that says is "We've generally used this technology when we didn't have any better treatments for that type of disease." And right now monoclonal antibodies seem to be more effective for covid and are easier to administer. OTOH, we don't seem to have good effective treatments for long covid, so if ozone therapy is showing potential for treating long covid, I would love to see some good RCTs on that.

 

Monoclonal antibodies work well if given early enough. Ozone has helped people who were intubated and even about to die. These were case studies but, IMO, those sorts of results warrant well-designed, fair trials. I would love to see some good RCTs but it won’t happen anytime soon.

I will also add that the Italians have treated thousands of Covid patients and are seeing good results. They also sent the (cheapish) equipment to African countries to use. This is not merely throwing something at the wall hoping it sticks. The evidence is there but is not as good as an RCT which would be ideal.

Edited October 31, 2021 by BeachGal
added a paragraph

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Monoclonal antibodies work well if given early enough. Ozone has helped people who were intubated and even about to die. These were case studies but, IMO, those sorts of results warrant well-designed, fair trials. I would love to see some good RCTs but it won’t happen anytime soon.

I’m curious, do you happen to know which method they administered it in that case? A couple months ago, I heard about an admittedly odd sounding study where they found they could oxygenate rats by administering (liquid, I think?) oxygen rectally. It seemed to me that it would be something to look into for Covid sufferers whose lungs are no longer working. I don’t know how long it would be feasible to do so. It would have to be long enough to allow their lungs to heal. I haven’t heard of the treatment being tried in people yet. 

[BeachGal]

There are at least 30 ways ozone can be administered, iirc.

Italy is using a method called ozone major autohemotherapy, MAH. The ideal dose is called a 10 pass which is what MDs in the US are often using for Covid. (Those who offer it.) It’s a one and done in most cases. Takes about 2 hours. This is what some athletes use to dope. Italy is giving 1-3 passes per day.

Cubans use ozone rectal insufflation and have for decades. Ozone is huge there. I don’t think it’s the same as what the mice were given but maybe?

Ozone gas in this case is actually mostly oxygen and a small percentage of ozone when it’s administered. Ozone is very unstable and breaks down into oxygen quickly. The remaining ozone combines instantly with lipids to become ozonides and they do the work. 

[Halftime Hope]

3 hours ago, wathe said:

Right.

Peroxide absolutely is marketed as colorsafe bleach.  Also called non-chlorine bleach.  Bleach can mean either sodium hypochlorite or hydrogen peroxide.

Wathe, I know you are from Canada and this may be a difference in language usage.  In the United States, if someone says bleach, it is commonly understood they mean sodium hypochlorite solution or Chlorox, but not necessarily limited to that brand name.   

If a hairdresser is talking within a salon, they may say bleach, meaning peroxide hair bleach, but that is definitely context specific, and not the same as common usage. 

The media excoriating Trump regarding something he had heard about bleach in the early pandemic: that was absolutely not about hydrogen peroxide. 

Even in the example you gave, H202 is marketed as "non-chlorine bleach", or "colorsafe bleach", not plain old bleach. 

If KSera is an american writing in an american context, conflating peroxide with bleach is disengenuous, even if she is a hairdresser. 😉  If she is from another language base, then her confusion might make more sense. 

 

 

 

[Halftime Hope]

On 10/28/2021 at 8:52 PM, busymama7 said:

Someone close to me is unvaccinated, positive and symptomatic.  I urged asking about monoclonal antibodies which she said she would. But then she said she is using hydrogen peroxide in her nebulizer and it's safe because she mixed it properly.  I want to cry.  I hadn't heard about this but just read a bunch and I can't imagine this is a good idea.   This person has autoimmune issues, fibromyalgia etc.  Didn't take the vaccine because of concerns about making these issues worse.  I cautioned that the choices were get covid vaccinated or get it unvaccinated. That not getting wasn't much of an option as everyone would likely get it eventually. And catching it was likely to make things worse too.  Her vaccinated husband brought it home and barely noticed the sickness. Because he's vaccinated!!!!!  Just venting.  I really don't want to lose this person.  Early 50s and lots of life left to live 😭

@busymama7   Just checking to see how your loved one is doing?  Much better, I hope.  

 

[wathe]

I'm actually pretty sure that "colorsafe bleach" is an American term.  I first heard of it on this forum, in posts posted by Americans,  when reading laundry threads. 

[busymama7]

19 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

@busymama7   Just checking to see how your loved one is doing?  Much better, I hope.  

 

She got the infusion yesterday and thinks her fever might have broken but that was this am. I'm only messaging once a day for the most part.  Just glad she got the antibodies. 

[KSera]

38 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

If KSera is an american writing in an american context, conflating peroxide with bleach is disengenuous, even if she is a hairdresser. 😉  If she is from another language base, then her confusion might make more sense. 

I think this is getting caught up in semantics and way misses the point. I changed the wording after your initial post on it, because it was a distraction. I casually used the word colloquially, but it really had absolutely nothing to do with the point, which was someone passing up something known to be helpful in favor of something that they read about on the Internet which is not known to be helpful and warned against as potentially dangerous. Which parts of the world and country refer to hydrogen peroxide as bleach is totally beside the point. The point is made just as clearly by using the more specific term, hydrogen peroxide, so I will do so going forward.

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, goldberry said:

This is 100% true.  A family member was hospitalized with Covid and they discovered he had a blood clot.  He almost lost his leg and would have except for the excellent care he received.  The family INSISTS that the clot came from the remdesivir, not from Covid.   According to family, he is lucky the HOSPITAL didn't kill him. I'm grieving for the healthcare workers who work their tails off trying to save people only to be treated like that.  

Pray these people don't file a malpractice suit with an attorney savvy enough and unethical enough to make a big stink without sounding like a conspiracy theorist.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I think this is getting caught up in semantics and way misses the point. I changed the wording after your initial post on it, because it was a distraction. I casually used the word colloquially, but it really had absolutely nothing to do with the point, which was someone passing up something known to be helpful in favor of something that they read about on the Internet which is not known to be helpful and warned against as potentially dangerous. Which parts of the world and country refer to hydrogen peroxide as bleach is totally beside the point. The point is made just as clearly by using the more specific term, hydrogen peroxide, so I will do so going forward.

I agree. The point also is that hydrogen peroxide, depending upon the concentration can burn your insides if taken internally. At 3% it isn’t as dangerous, but it isn’t benign. Just like people have ended up in the ER with Ivermectin poisoning, I think that we’ll see people ending up in the ER for this too. Not everyone but some. 

[Melissa in Australia]

This thread has remined me. When I was a teen someone told me that brushing my teeth with peroxide stops tartar build up.. I did it for a year.efite I found out that peroxide isn't meant to be taken internally.😲.... I didn't have any tartar though... 

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

[klmama]

11 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

This thread has remined me. When I was a teen someone told me that brushing my teeth with peroxide stops tartar build up.. I did it for a year.efite I found out that peroxide isn't meant to be taken internally.😲.... I didn't have any tartar though... 

Our dentist's office has had us swish our mouths with 1.5% hydrogen peroxide at each visit since Covid started.  Food grade is supposed to be safer than the regular store brands, as it doesn't have the potentially toxic stabilizers, but even the regular kind sold in the US is labeled for use as a diluted oral rinse.  Rinse does NOT mean swallow!!!