Do most (U.S. of) Americans care?

[OnTheBrink]

Most the people I know don't talk much about their good deeds. They are hidden people.

 

Most of the people I know spend a lot more money on their good deeds than they do on unnecessary items for themselves. They are clean and tidy, but not bejeweled or BMWed (although they could be).

 

Most of them stay out of the malls because there's nothing there they want and a lot they don't want to see. (Victoria's Secret, say, while shopping with their teen boys.)

 

Most of the people I know are in church 10x more than they are in a mall, timewise. Without knowing the facts (because they don't talk about it), I would also bet their wallets reflect this ratio.

 

They eat. They make sure others eat. They have a house. They open their homes to others, and give to shelters, both in time and money.

 

But they are the hidden people, who don't walk around telling everyone how great they are. Without them, however, our country would be a very different place.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[TammyinTN]

Most the people I know don't talk much about their good deeds. They are hidden people.

 

Most of the people I know spend a lot more money on their good deeds than they do on unnecessary items for themselves. They are clean and tidy, but not bejeweled or BMWed (although they could be).

 

Most of them stay out of the malls because there's nothing there they want and a lot they don't want to see. (Victoria's Secret, say, while shopping with their teen boys.)

 

Most of the people I know are in church 10x more than they are in a mall, timewise. Without knowing the facts (because they don't talk about it), I would also bet their wallets reflect this ratio.

 

They eat. They make sure others eat. They have a house. They open their homes to others, and give to shelters, both in time and money.

 

But they are the hidden people, who don't walk around telling everyone how great they are. Without them, however, our country would be a very different place.

 

Well said!

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Well, some friends of ours just came stateside to look for a home after living over seas and one of the first questions was "What do people do with all this stuff?"

 

Having lived overseas myself, I do think that our culture is very "stuff" oriented.

 

As for politics, I think most people are sincere but undereducated.

[SquirrellyMama]

People in other countries talk about us, but we talk about them too. We have certain ideas of what their lives are like and make similar dumb comments.

 

:iagree:

[Peek a Boo]

I wonder why it seems so inconceivable to some people that the United States might not have the greatest culture. We have a lot of freedom, yes, and that is good thing, but our culture lacks many elements that some people feel are important.

 

I wonder whether the people who seem so offended by criticism of American culture have traveled outside the US. I wonder that because most of the people that I know in real life who are the staunchest, most unquestioning defenders of America's superiority in all respects have never been anywhere else.

 

America can be a great country and have problems at the same time, and I don't think it's bad to recognize that.

 

Tara

 

I'm not really offended, cuz i am happy to just write off superficial observations.

i think the offense is that even if we don't have the best, i don't see NEAR the amount of Americans belittling other cultures as other cultures do to us. but that's just my own experience and what i see in the media.

I do think simplicity is often overrated.

 

And no, i don't think one needs to travel extensively to realize that some people are making superficial observations that don't necessarily apply to everyone. On all sides of the globe, as WendyK pointed out :)

 

I've met a few staunch defenders of America that HAVE lived/ grown up elsewhere, so I'm guessing your premise is anecdotal. ;)

[5kidsforME]

I wonder why it seems so inconceivable to some people that the United States might not have the greatest culture. We have a lot of freedom, yes, and that is good thing, but our culture lacks many elements that some people feel are important.

 

I wonder whether the people who seem so offended by criticism of American culture have traveled outside the US. I wonder that because most of the people that I know in real life who are the staunchest, most unquestioning defenders of America's superiority in all respects have never been anywhere else.

 

America can be a great country and have problems at the same time, and I don't think it's bad to recognize that.

 

Tara

 

There is no offense taken here. I just find it ironic, hypocritical, and interesting that the very country some people don't like (ie: jamnkats) is the very country they still live in. That is why I was asking her why she lived here.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

There is no offense taken here. I just find it ironic, hypocritical, and interesting that the very country some people don't like (ie: jamnkats) is the very country they still live in. That is why I was asking her why she lived here.

Pointing out a flaw does not equal not liking. Admitting fault does not equal being unpatriotic. Prefering the country of one's birth does not equal bashing the country in which one currently resides. Wanting to move back to a beloved spot also does not equal hating a current spot.

[Guest janainaz]

Not sure I can word it the way I think about it, but I think people like the "idea" of things. I think many people do mindlessly support certain things, but without asking all the right questions as to what something really stands for. For example - those who are against abortion. They stand up and get really loud about it, get passionate about "life" being "a life" - yet, where is the concern for all the babies born to mom's who can't afford to raise them, who are not really equipped to care for them? If they care so much about "life" why do they sit back and do nothing on the other end of it.

 

I believe a lot of what people do is often without understanding and for all the wrong reasons. I think much of it is a big facade - in reality.

[5kidsforME]

Pointing out a flaw does not equal not liking. Admitting fault does not equal being unpatriotic. Prefering the country of one's birth does not equal bashing the country in which one currently resides. Wanting to move back to a beloved spot also does not equal hating a current spot.

 

Again, that is why I asked jamnkats the question I did. :001_smile:

[Guest janainaz]

I agree. I think we are overfed and over-entertained and over-pampered and therefore we don't have a whole lot of passion to do anything because we're so darn comfortable. The "I've got mine" mentality that I witness around me really bothers me. We are willing to throw money at problems, but if it requires actual work, we tend to decline.

 

I also think that Americans are woefully uneducated about the rest of the world, and since we don't know much about it, we don't particularly care much about it.

 

I have lived overseas and seen people in dire circumstances. Many of them are more knowledgeable about what's going on in the world and more willing to do something about it even if it costs them something. ETA: I think this has to do with the fact that we have billions of things competing for our attention, so we are very distracted. People with fewer entertainment options tend to pay more attention to news, ime.

 

Tara

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Zelda]

Again, that is why I asked jamnkats the question I did. :001_smile:

 

:lurk5:

 

I am enjoying the parsing of words in the responses to your question so far. I haven't lived in another country since I was a baby but I have enough ties to that country and lived close enough to Canada to be a dedicated flag waver because of those experiences.

[5kidsforME]

:lurk5:

 

I am enjoying the parsing of words in the responses to your question so far. I haven't lived in another country since I was a baby but I have enough ties to that country and lived close enough to Canada to be a dedicated flag waver because of those experiences.

 

I can understand that. I visited Guatemala when I was 16 and will always feel drawn to it. I chose to see the beauty of the land and the people. I didn't come home going on and on of what is negative in Guatemala.

 

I appreciate people that say yes the USA is flawed in some areas but it is a beautiful country and has many many positives.

 

I find it ironic and telling that we are a country that is mocked and hated/disliked by so many that live in the country and so many from other countries yet we are the first country that is expected to run to the aid of those very same people.

[Zelda]

I can understand that. I visited Guatemala when I was 16 and will always feel drawn to it. I chose to see the beauty of the land and the people. I didn't come home going on and on of what is negative in Guatemala.

 

 

No, I think I must have misspoken. I'm a flag waver for the US b/c of my experiences with other countries.

[5kidsforME]

No, I think I must have misspoken. I'm a flag waver for the US b/c of my experiences with other countries.

 

 

Ahhh, I see. :tongue_smilie:

[Peek a Boo]

I think many people do mindlessly support certain things, but without asking all the right questions as to what something really stands for. For example - those who are against abortion. They stand up and get really loud about it, get passionate about "life" being "a life" - yet, where is the concern for all the babies born to mom's who can't afford to raise them, who are not really equipped to care for them? If they care so much about "life" why do they sit back and do nothing on the other end of it.

 

I believe a lot of what people do is often without understanding and for all the wrong reasons. I think much of it is a big facade - in reality.

 

and THIS is a perfect example of the superficial observations of which i was speaking.

 

It's too easy to do a basic search and see exactly WHAT people who are anti-abortion ARE doing.

 

it is also ridiculously easy to start making a list of alllllll the things that people DO --in a serious, hands-on way-- in local communities. Just because person A is so involved doing X work w/ charity doesn't mean that person B isn't doing Y work w/ a different charity in a different way.

 

I'm sure some of it is a big facade. on both sides of the issue :).

 

ok, and who dared you to bring up abortion? hee hee....[/I]

[Jenny in Atl]

 

 

ok, and who dared you to bring up abortion? hee hee....[/I]

 

Sometimes I honestly think that's all you think about. :confused:

[LisaNY]

i like voodoo-minding. It has a nostalgic touch of hysteria.

 

bwahahaaaaa!!!

[LisaNY]

:iagree:

 

To the OP, I feel that it has become fashionable to bash Americans. It is done subtlety by our own sitcoms and not so subtlety in our own news. It is done by American bloggers, American individuals in their homes and American groups in the streets. It is done by people in countries close to us and countries far away.

 

We have lost a lot of respect we once had over the last 20 years. Sadly, I've watched it happen. My opinion of the causes is too political to discuss here, but I really hope things turn around in the next decade.

 

As for caring, I know a lot of people who care. I also know people that go for the catch phrase of the day, and/or what ever is popular.

 

Good post, Parrothead - I couldn't agree more.

[pqr]

I wonder why it seems so inconceivable to some people that the United States might not have the greatest culture. We have a lot of freedom, yes, and that is good thing, but our culture lacks many elements that some people feel are important.

 

I wonder whether the people who seem so offended by criticism of American culture have traveled outside the US. I wonder that because most of the people that I know in real life who are the staunchest, most unquestioning defenders of America's superiority in all respects have never been anywhere else.

 

America can be a great country and have problems at the same time, and I don't think it's bad to recognize that.

 

Tara

 

Well, I have lived overseas for over half my life. I have lived in Africa, Asia and Europe. I have lived in over a dozen nations and visited over 60.

 

I can, without equivocation, say that there is no place like the US. Our freedoms exceed those found just about anywhere else, our standard of living is better, opportunities are greater. I will accept that some in Europe may dispute this but please please please do not insult the intelligence of readers on this board by comparing the quality of life in some of the world's hell holes with the US.

 

That being said, I love life in Eastern Europe and will stay here as long as I can, but that is because I have found one of those places where given my finances I live better than most and am immune to some of the hardships that face most people. As I also said I do brook arguments from some living in Europe, or Australia or even SE Asia. I will not agree but will accept the argument.

 

What I find problematical is the attempt to dismiss those who loudly and proudly wave the US flag as somehow ill-informed. I would argue the exact opposite, those who do not are either misinformed or willfully blind.

 

With apologies to Kipling

 

The poor little street-bred people that vapour and fume and brag,

They are lifting their heads in the stillness to yelp at the American Flag!

[LisaNY]

Well, I have lived overseas for over half my life. I have lived in Africa, Asia and Europe. I have lived in over a dozen nations and visited over 60.

 

I can, without equivocation, say that there is no place like the US. Our freedoms exceed those found just about anywhere else, our standard of living is better, opportunities are greater. I will accept that some in Europe may dispute this but please please please do not insult the intelligence of readers on this board by comparing the quality of life in some of the world's hell holes with the US.

 

That being said, I love life in Eastern Europe and will stay here as long as I can, but that is because I have found one of those places where given my finances I live better than most and am immune to some of the hardships that face most people. As I also said I do brook arguments from some living in Europe, or Australia or even SE Asia. I will not agree but will accept the argument.

 

What I find problematical is the attempt to dismiss those who loudly and proudly wave the US flag as somehow ill-informed. I would argue the exact opposite, those who do not are either misinformed or willfully blind.

 

With apologies to Kipling

 

The poor little street-bred people that vapour and fume and brag,

They are lifting their heads in the stillness to yelp at the American Flag!

 

Great post, pqr - thank you!!

 

My dh and I went to Ireland a couple of years ago. It was lovely, and the people were wonderful. I never appreciated my country fully until I was away from it. I never thought I could acutally be THRILLED to be in Newark airport. When we came through the "check in" area, the man who took our passports said, in a beautiful Bronx accent, "How ya dooin'?" It was music to my ears - LOL! We told him that we were so happy to be back in America. He said, "You don't know how many times people say that to me."

 

I LOVE AMERICA!!! I LOVE AMERICA!!! I LOVE AMERICA!!!! :patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot:

[Haiku]

please please please do not insult the intelligence of readers on this board by comparing the quality of life in some of the world's hell holes with the US.

 

 

 

Where did I do that or even imply it? :confused::confused:

 

Tara

[KJB]

"I can, without equivocation, say that there is no place like the US. Our freedoms exceed those found just about anywhere else, our standard of living is better, opportunities are greater. I will accept that some in Europe may dispute this but please please please do not insult the intelligence of readers on this board by comparing the quality of life in some of the world's hell holes with the US.

 

 

What I find problematical is the attempt to dismiss those who loudly and proudly wave the US flag as somehow ill-informed. I would argue the exact opposite, those who do not are either misinformed or willfully blind."

 

 

I have traveled quite a bit and I currently live overseas. I totally agree with your entire post.

 

I will only add that for all the negative attitudes espoused by Americans about Americans, I rarely hear that sentiment about us from foreigners. Many other countries in the world *love* Americans, believe it or not. At least, this is IME as a traveler of all over Europe, Africa, and South America.

[Peek a Boo]

Sometimes I honestly think that's all you think about. :confused:

 

that WHAT's all i think about?

 

abortion?

 

another superficial observation considering the thousands of conversations I've been involved in here and abroad. but i have readily admitted it's a soapbox issue of mine. esp considering the post to which i was responding.

 

so I'll toss another :confused: into the mix....

[emeraldjoy]

Where did I do that or even imply it? :confused::confused:

 

Tara

 

You didn't.

[LisaNY]

that WHAT's all i think about?

 

abortion?

 

another superficial observation considering the thousands of conversations I've been involved in here and abroad. but i have readily admitted it's a soapbox issue of mine. esp considering the post to which i was responding.

 

so I'll toss another :confused: into the mix....

 

I'll add mine, too :confused: since (you didn't bring it up, someone else did...)

[Laura in VA]

Not sure I can word it the way I think about it, but I think people like the "idea" of things. I think many people do mindlessly support certain things, but without asking all the right questions as to what something really stands for. For example - those who are against abortion. They stand up and get really loud about it, get passionate about "life" being "a life" - yet, where is the concern for all the babies born to mom's who can't afford to raise them, who are not really equipped to care for them? If they care so much about "life" why do they sit back and do nothing on the other end of it.

 

 

Are you serious?

[emeraldjoy]

I guess my take on it is.....

the media speaks loud and clear about the general value systems of US citizens. The media focuses on what "sells"; on what the majority are interested in.

 

It seems to me that Brittany Spears' breakdown is far more important than Government backed genocide in Burma, for example.

 

By saying this I do not hate America or anything even close to it. I truly love this country and fully understand the freedoms I am afforded here.

 

Most of the people I *know* care a whole lot too (like many posters here mentioned). It is important to remember, however, that while it is common to surround ourselves with like minded people, those like minded people don't necessarily represent the majority. Someone mentioned that most of the people they know spend far more time in church that shopping....well..... most of the people I know don't go to church (know what I mean?) There is always a bigger picture.

 

What a huge, huge topic. Where to even begin and I am certain that I in no way represented my true thoughts here.........

 

emerald

[KJB]

Where did I do that or even imply it? :confused::confused:

 

Tara

 

And I didn't read pqr as suggesting that you did. I think pqr's post used yours as a springboard for his/her own thoughts. I could be wrong.

:lurk5:

[Laura in VA]

Sometimes I honestly think that's all you think about. :confused:

 

Peek didn't bring it up, Jenny. Is she not allowed to respond to a post regarding abortion? Or, would you just rather her not because her posts are hard to dismiss as purely emotional responses, and they are insightful and factual?

[Michelle in MO]

Not sure I can word it the way I think about it, but I think people like the "idea" of things. I think many people do mindlessly support certain things, but without asking all the right questions as to what something really stands for. For example - those who are against abortion. They stand up and get really loud about it, get passionate about "life" being "a life" - yet, where is the concern for all the babies born to mom's who can't afford to raise them, who are not really equipped to care for them? If they care so much about "life" why do they sit back and do nothing on the other end of it.

 

I believe a lot of what people do is often without understanding and for all the wrong reasons. I think much of it is a big facade - in reality.

 

and it's not a facade. Our community and many communities across America have crisis pregnancy centers that are completely dedicated to helping mothers and fathers of all ages who have chosen to not abort their unborn children. We have volunteered at this crisis pregnancy center and have given many financial contributions as well. This crisis pregnancy center is supported by a very active community, and here are just a few of the services that they provide:

 

- Pregnancy tests

- Free ultrasounds

- Free pre-natal checkups by physicians in our area who volunteer their time and resources

- Post-partum care, including checkups for both mom and baby

- Practical and financial help in finding housing for the young mother and father

- Free maternity and baby clothes

- Help and access to programs like WIC, Medicaid, etc.

- Counseling for the parents (both before and after the birth of the child) to help them learn how to be good parents and work through any other issues that might be necessary

- Job counseling

 

Really, there is so much available out there for unwed mothers or other moms in crisis pregnancy centers. People want to help. One of the moms up the street from us volunteers there literally almost all the time. The only paid staff position is the director, whose salary is minimal and is truly a labor of love. Everyone else is a volunteer.

 

I think most communities I've ever lived in have had at least one if not several crisis pregnancy center. They are a wonderful resource.

 

This is not empty rhetoric, but love in action: people helping other people through extremely difficult situations.

[LisaNY]

and it's not a facade. Our community and many communities across America have crisis pregnancy centers that are completely dedicated to helping mothers and fathers of all ages who have chosen to not abort their unborn children. We have volunteered at this crisis pregnancy center and have given many financial contributions as well. This crisis pregnancy center is supported by a very active community, and here are just a few of the services that they provide:

 

- Pregnancy tests

- Free ultrasounds

- Free pre-natal checkups by physicians in our area who volunteer their time and resources

- Post-partum care, including checkups for both mom and baby

- Practical and financial help in finding housing for the young mother and father

- Free maternity and baby clothes

- Help and access to programs like WIC, Medicaid, etc.

- Counseling for the parents (both before and after the birth of the child) to help them learn how to be good parents and work through any other issues that might be necessary

- Job counseling

 

Really, there is so much available out there for unwed mothers or other moms in crisis pregnancy centers. People want to help. One of the moms up the street from us volunteers there literally almost all the time. The only paid staff position is the director, whose salary is minimal and is truly a labor of love. Everyone else is a volunteer.

 

I think most communities I've ever lived in have had at least one if not several crisis pregnancy center. They are a wonderful resource.

 

This is not empty rhetoric, but love in action: people helping other people through extremely difficult situations.

 

Well, there ya go! I real-life, concrete example of what is *really* happening in many areas. We have a center in our area that does the very same thing. Thanks for sharing, Michelle!

[Jenny in Atl]

Peek didn't bring it up, Jenny. Is she not allowed to respond to a post regarding abortion? Or, would you just rather her not because her posts are hard to dismiss as purely emotional responses, and they are insightful and factual?

 

Sorry, it seems most conversations here tend to roll down hill and re-hash the same subjects over and over, many times by the same posters. I'm honestly very tired of the over all mood on this board. Again, sorry I said anything. I will go away.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On the other hand, there were several areas where I was surprised to find the US with what I considered better positions than Europe. For example handicaped access in public places. Curb cuts are few and far between and the bathroom is often in a basement, completely out of bounds for someone with limited mobility. I was also surprised by how many places were just choked with smoke. I'm not complaining about nightclubs or cafes. But a MacDonalds, say in Greece that was blue with smoke. Or the large number of dog owners who didn't seem burdened with the concept of picking up after their dog pooped on the sidewalk (there are actually comedy sketches about this).

 

The flag waving can seem very jarring to folks from some countries. Germans, for example, rarely hang a flag from their house, unless it is a state flag (Bavaria) or an ethnic minority flag (Danish in Schleswig-Holstein for example). I think that some find it hard to believe that one can be proud of their country without veering into dangerous nationalism.

[mcconnellboys]

No, I do not agree with that sort of characterization at all. But as you say, my main set of acquaintenances might not be the "norm".

[Peek a Boo]

Sorry, it seems most conversations here tend to roll down hill and re-hash the same subjects over and over, many times by the same posters. I'm honestly very tired of the over all mood on this board. Again, sorry I said anything. I will go away.

 

 

well, conversations DO get re-hashed, since it's not a closed community :)

 

but if we were to accurately look over allll the threads here and chart them, I think we'd see a pretty wide diversity of topics that are actually being discussed. It's just that not all of us happen to be interested in those threads, so --like the person in the OP-- we don't see them and tend to see ONE mood on the whole darn board.

 

If issue X gets brought up, there are a few key posters that i expect to be all over that thread giving some pretty insightful wisdom and experience. And like all conversations w/ new people, you often have to repeat the same thing.

 

I guess whether that's 'down-hill' or not is in the mood of the beholder ;)

 

But actually, I think these posts were pretty spot-on at showing how people perceive "the majority" lol.

[LilyK]

most of the people that I know in real life who are the staunchest, most unquestioning defenders of America's superiority in all respects have never been anywhere else.

 

 

 

If I believe that America is the most wonderful place in the world, does that put me in the "staunchest, most unquestioning defenders of America's superiority category?" Because if it does, as a non-native, who socializes in mostly immigrant circles, I can assure you that many of us have been all over the world. I firmly believe that travel and living abroad very often strengthens one's love and appreciation of America. The incident that keeps popping into mind is my flight back from Paris (17 years ago, man, I'm old.) When the flight landed and the captain announced "Welcome to the United States of America," a large number of us broke out into spontaneous cheering. We were mostly college students who had spent a year abroad, and boy, did we realize how much we take for granted over here.

[pqr]

Where did I do that or even imply it? :confused::confused:

 

Tara

 

Tara,

 

To clarify, when I said "please please please do not insult the intelligence of readers on this board by comparing the quality of life in some of the world's hell holes with the US." I was NOT refering to your post, but rather to some other posters who made the comparison.

 

Sincerely pqr

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Culture shock in returning to the US after living overseas is a very tricky subject. Perhaps it might be similar to returning to your hometown after many years. In your mind everything is as you remember it and you probably remember it through rose colored glasses (at least to a certain extent). Once the reality of what life is like hits, you are inevitably disappointed because it can't match up to the image you have built in your mind. This disappointment can lead to rash judgment and criticism. This disappointment is exacerbated by the fact that you have adopted to another culture and are living the lifestyle of country X which may not be in sync with a typical US lifestyle so you feel as if you no longer fit in your "home."

 

While these are all real emotions it is important when living an ex-pat lifestyle to remember what happens to your view of the world and allow for all the differences between home and host countries, otherwise the negative emotions are inevitable.

 

As for the stuff oriented culture in the US...After living in cultures that don't value closets, cupboards and other such storage areas it's not that we value stuff more than others, it is that we have a place to put our stuff and therefore we tend to accumulate more.

 

Visit a Fourth of July party among Americans living overseas. There is plenty of patriotism and love of country. You don't sign over your nationality when you cross the boarder.

[stripe]

As for the stuff oriented culture in the US...After living in cultures that don't value closets, cupboards and other such storage areas it's not that we value stuff more than others, it is that we have a place to put our stuff and therefore we tend to accumulate more.

The US really is a land of plenty.

 

Houses and apartments here are much larger than most other dwelling places all over the world. Roads are spacious. Parking lots are expansive. Stores are cavernous. (Waist-lines are too, but, cough....) This is not really the way it's always been -- I once lived in a very old little house with virtually no storage space -- but it's the way it is now. Americans are used to things. It is very unusual to find someone in the US today, of any income level, who does not have a closet full of clothes, for example.

 

The effect of all this abundance on someone's outlook, varies, I daresay. It can, however, be hard to fathom that the rest of the world doesn't live like this. In many places, clean running (cold!) water sounds totally luxurious.

 

I think there is something in human nature that makes possessions beget a feeling of "need." So even though we may have many things, we still want for more, to the point where we no longer comprehend that we have so much. Yet I think Americans think of and discuss socioeconomic issues through the standpoint of everyone wanting to be middle class.

 

If I may make a "happy" observation -- Americans are generally very friendly. There's a lot of greeting and smiles. Also fairly orderly and conscientious.

[Haiku]

If I believe that America is the most wonderful place in the world, does that put me in the "staunchest, most unquestioning defenders of America's superiority category?"

 

I don't know, because I have never had a conversation with you.

 

When I wrote that, I had in mind people I have spoken with whose attitudes are, "It doesn't matter if we break international law, we are the greatest country in the world. It doesn't matter if we deny people their civil rights, we are the greatest country in the world. It doesn't matter if we destroy the environment, we are the greatest country in the world." To me, it's the people who are completely unwilling to admit that the US might have some issues to work out that bug me the most. It's like they are afraid that, if they acknowledge that we are not perfect, we are then no longer good. I think America is a good place to live. Do I wish some things were different? Absolutely. Does that make me an unpatriotic America-hater who should be shipped off to North Korea? No.

 

I know that people who love love love America don't wish to be categorized as brainwashed drones. Neither do those of us who question some aspects of the American experiment wish to given a verbal swift kick in the rear on the way out the door, so to speak.

 

Tara

[Margaret in GA]

An acquaintance who recently moved back to the States says most people here care only about shopping and selling and waving flags in a shallow support-the-troops kind of gesture. I think that's just a stereotype perpetuated by the media, so I argued that most of the people I know are much more thoughtful and active than that in their stance on issues. But most of the people I know are different in some way -- homeschoolers, Pagans or LGBT. My personal sample group is obviously predisposed to going against the flow.

 

So, what do you think? Are most of the people you know personally mindless shopping drones who choose their political statements based on what bumper stickers are most widely available?

 

(BTW, I do not in any way mean to indicate that supporting the troops is stupid or mindless. Not at all. Just that those stickers tend to be more available, and no one these days is really against supporting people who are in a traumatic situation, so it's the easiest statement to make if you happen to be a nonthinker. Supporting the troops can certainly also be a thoughtful, important form of political activism.)

 

 

I'm quoting the original question here because somehow this discussion as devolved into something else. Can't we say two things at once: 1.) Americans do tend to be cut off from the world. We do tend to mindlessly worship the television (24 hr. news in particular) and and the whole we have a shocking ignorance of Geography, History, and Government. 2.) America is still one of if not *the* best places in the world to be born.

 

I mean, really. Can't we believe in both these things? Why are we bashing America because we dare to criticize its citizens' flaws? I think most of here are about as counter-culture as you can get. We are here for thoughtful debate and dedicate our lives to educating our children. Yet, we can admit that so many people out there don't even know who the Secretary of State is or what that even means, yet know full well who Kevin Federline is and the status of his custody battle --I happen to know both. I'm kind of a know it all ;)

Margaret

PS One more thing to offer as evidence of our consumer-based culture: the fact that many people consider shopping "a mother-daughter bonding experience"

[texascamps]

I'm quoting the original question here because somehow this discussion as devolved into something else. Can't we say two things at once: 1.) Americans do tend to be cut off from the world. We do tend to mindlessly worship the television (24 hr. news in particular) and and the whole we have a shocking ignorance of Geography, History, and Government. 2.) America is still one of if not *the* best places in the world to be born.

 

I mean, really. Can't we believe in both these things? Why are we bashing America because we dare to criticize its citizens' flaws? I think most of here are about as counter-culture as you can get. We are here for thoughtful debate and dedicate our lives to educating our children. Yet, we can admit that so many people out there don't even know who the Secretary of State is or what that even means, yet know full well who Kevin Federline is and the status of his custody battle --I happen to know both. I'm kind of a know it all ;)

Margaret

PS One more thing to offer as evidence of our consumer-based culture: the fact that many people consider shopping "a mother-daughter bonding experience"

 

 

I don't agree at all. I don't. I think most Americans that choose to finish high school are more informed and educated than most foreigners that I've ever met. WHile we do have a consumer driven economy, I can't think that this is somehow backward. After all, those who hate us most are jealous of what we have! And I mean what most Westernized countries have. I mean, really! Who wants to be France! We as Americans idolize and romanticize the European countries. But please, name something technologically advanced, culturally advanced that any other country (other than the Asian countries) have done in that last 30 or so years.

 

The WHO stats of US birth mortality rates are skewed because we keep better records and we count more deaths than other countries do ( you can find how they get these stats online and they are eye opening, especially when you see how the press loves to make the US look bad.) Plus the standard of living stats are also skewed. Because what we consider poor and destitute in this country is still not "poor" in other countries.

 

 

You can be considered under the poverty line here and still have a house, cable, a car and Tommy Hilfiger jeans.

 

Poor in other countries may be when your chickens share your only shelter with you and you still pee in the corner.

 

Our health department doesn't allow that. Our homeless population is not necessarily homeless because of poverty. Many homeless have chosen their life, they have checked out of society by choice..... a century ago they would have been called nomads, hobos, adventurers, mountain men. Nowadays we don't allow them to make tent villages and cardboard box cities or allow them to retreat to the hills to live on public land.

 

We, the US, give more $$$$ to world humanitarian causes than any other "enlightened" country.

 

If you all are not informed about these things than you may be listening to the wrong news sources. Sources who are either Francophiles, Anglophiles or just plain bent on bringing us down.

 

I have had friends from all parts of the world, professors, thinkers, managers, and very few have struck me as concerned about the plight of the world or any more in tune with humanity than the Americans I know.

 

My biggest fear is that our new administration who has only bad things to say about America and only good things to say about other countries, thinks we need to be more like them.....

 

I don't want to be France!

[KJB]

But please, name something technologically advanced, culturally advanced that any other country (other than the Asian countries) have done in that last 30 or so years.

 

In general, Europeans better utilize public transportation than the US. They drive smaller more fuel efficient cars. They recycle like mad. They use alternative energy. Wind mills and solar panels dot the hills and countryside of Germany. You can recycle while you walk down the street as bins are available for you to sort what you discard. Compost piles are common.

 

Also, Europeans have (imo) an enlightened model of caring for family. Where I live, often two and sometimes three or more generations share houses. And the houses are old, well maintained, and lovely. There are no cars up on blocks outside dilapidated trailer homes like you come across in small town USA. A lot of time is spent making villages look cozy. The summer time flowers are abundant. The smell of fresh bread wakes you up on a Saturday morning because the village baker has his windows open.

 

Mchousing doesn't happen. Houses built where I live are made to last, and they do. Few cookie cutter neighborhoods and an emphasis on charm and quality make up neighborhoods where I live. Houses are built out of concrete. People stencil and adorn their exterior walls with art. Windows are covered for efficiency.

 

I could go on and on about ways the US beats the pants off of Europeans for customer service, health care (I gave birth in a German hospital, I've experienced it first hand), and dear Lord the smoke.... but I won't. I'll just say that while I am wildly patriotic and pro-US, it's not because the Europeans are defunct. The US can still learn a few lessons from our buddies across the pond.

Edited December 12, 2008 by KJB

[pqr]

I don't know, because I have never had a conversation with you.

 

When I wrote that, I had in mind people I have spoken with whose attitudes are, "It doesn't matter if we break international law,

 

 

 

I am sorry.

 

The law of the land is governed by the Constitution of the United States. Unless it is written in a treaty that has been duly approved by OUR government then it doesn’t matter if we break international law as it is not our law and as a sovereign nation we are under no obligation to adhere to it.

 

I am not giving you your "verbal swift kick in the rear" but I fail to understand why anyone should believe that we need adhere to a law that is dictated by non-Americans. It is not because we are the greatest nation in the world, it is simply because we are a free and independent nation that we can, and hopefully will continue to, refuse to be dictated to.

 

I would ask you, how would you feel if 125 nations ( a clear plurality ) agreed that in the name of Children's Rights homeschooling be made illegal. If these nations declared this an international law protecting children and dictated this through an international treaty would you feel compelled to acquiesce?

Edited December 12, 2008 by pqr

[Debbie in OR]

I am sorry, the law of the land is governed by the Constitution of the United States. Unless it is written in a treaty that has been duly approved by OUR government then it doesn’t matter if we break international law as it is not our law and as a sovereign nation we are under no obligation to adhere to it.

 

I am not giving you your "verbal swift kick in the rear" but I fail to understand why anyone should believe that we need adhere to a law that is dictated by non-Americans. It is not because we are the greatest nation in the world, it is simply because we are a free and independent nation that we can, and hopefully will continue to, refuse to be dictated to.

 

I would ask you, how would you feel if 125 nations ( a clear plurality ) agreed that in the name of Children's Rights homeschooling be made illegal. If these nations declared this an international law protecting children and dictated this through an international treaty would you feel compelled to acquiesce?

 

Excellent points, pqr! And the bolded point (bold mine) is the point. At least for now.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Debbie in OR

[Zelda]

it doesn’t matter if we break international law as it is not our law and as a sovereign nation we are under no obligation to adhere to it.

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:thumbup1:

[Zelda]

 

Also, Europeans have (imo) an enlightened model of caring for family. Where I live, often two and sometimes three or more generations share houses. And the houses are old, well maintained, and lovely. There are no cars up on blocks outside dilapidated trailer homes like you come across in small town USA. A lot of time is spent making villages look cozy. The summer time flowers are abundant. The smell of fresh bread wakes you up on a Saturday morning because the village baker has his windows open.

 

 

And then the children pour into the streets to join hands with their voices raised in song. Oh wait, no they don't, no one in Europe is having children anymore. The enlightened family model is not having a family, which, I agree, does simplify that issue quite a lot.

 

Small town America is doing fine and never worried about what Europeans thought of them even back when they were all 1st generation Europeans. Its what makes small towns so ding danged refreshing.

[KJB]

And then the children pour into the streets to join hands with their voices raised in song. Oh wait, no they don't, no one in Europe is having children anymore. The enlightened family model is not having a family, which, I agree, does simplify that issue quite a lot.

 

Small town America is doing fine and never worried about what Europeans thought of them even back when they were all 1st generation Europeans. Its what makes small towns so ding danged refreshing.

 

1. The enlightened family model to which I refer is how the elderly are not shuffled off to nursing homes. Small children are still allowed to play everywhere. Life is family centered and slower. Yes, the birth rates are down. A normal German family has one or two children. I'm not sure that is the same as not having a family. I'm sure some of our families here on the board with one or two children would quibble with your definition.

 

2. Small town American can be a mess. I've seen it first hand. Mom and Pop stores are closed so people can flock to and trample Walmart employees for cheap Chinese junk. I've lived places where people had no problem having a lawn decorated with trash. I have not seen anything like that here. Not one time. I am sure there are people here who are poor; I'd just like to see where they are living.

 

In short, I love your post Zelda, and others, that are unapologetically pro-America. I am too. I just don't think we can rest on our laurels and on the notion that we have nothing to appreciate/learn from other cultures. Such arrogance is a bad idea politically and does nothing to help us grow as a nation. We need to take the good ideas and apply them.

[Zelda]

1. The enlightened family model to which I refer is how the elderly are not shuffled off to nursing homes. Small children are still allowed to play everywhere. Life is family centered and slower. Yes, the birth rates are down. A normal German family has one or two children. I'm not sure that is the same as not having a family. I'm sure some of our families here on the board with one or two children would quibble with your definition.

 

2. Small town American can be a mess. I've seen it first hand. Mom and Pop stores are closed so people can flock to and trample Walmart employees for cheap Chinese junk. I've lived places where people had no problem having a lawn decorated with trash. I have not seen anything like that here. Not one time. I am sure there are people here who are poor; I'd just like to see where they are living.

 

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401340.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html

 

Its funny that the tidy, manicured lawns of the "character-free" suburbs of the U.S. are as frequently maligned as the garbage strewn lawns of the less kempt neighborhoods. You can't win for losing.

 

A quick google image search of "poverty Europe" yields interesting results.

 

I don't believe that America is perfect and I have yet to meet anyone that does. It amazes me when I'm told that such people exist. I've lived in 3 different regions of the United States from Vermont to California in a mixture of political and socio-economic circumstances and I have yet to meet the person that has no criticisms of some aspect of America.

 

I disagree with your approach here and your overbroad classifications of American values.

[Margaret in GA]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401340.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29Birth-t.html

 

Its funny that the tidy, manicured lawns of the "character-free" suburbs of the U.S. are as frequently maligned as the garbage strewn lawns of the less kempt neighborhoods. You can't win for losing.

 

A quick google image search of "poverty Europe" yields interesting results.

 

I don't believe that America is perfect and I have yet to meet anyone that does. It amazes me when I'm told that such people exist. I've lived in 3 different regions of the United States from Vermont to California in a mixture of political and socio-economic circumstances and I have yet to meet the person that has no criticisms of some aspect of America.

 

I disagree with your approach here and your overbroad classifications of American values.

 

Zelda

 

My problem with your posts (on this subject) is that you see any positive comments about other countries as criticisms of America. Can't we agree that America is great, but other countries may have things we want to emulate here? Is it all or nothing? Can't we critique without being America-haters?

 

Margaret

PS the articles you link point to the other poster's statement that they are having less kids, not no kids. In fact, this is happening here in the US as well:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=17571

 

"Yet without some immigration, the United States’ population would continue aging indefinitely because her birthrate is so low. "