Questions for Jews and Christians

[LongRamblings]

I am an American that hasn't really cared to become well informed about Palestine/Israel fighting. You know until it touches someone you care about it is easy to overlook thing. I regret this.  Recently we  become friendly with Arabs that are vocal in their defense of Palestine. Being in the Bible belt I have always been raised to support Israel so my bias naturally falls with them even though I don't have enough knowledge to form a valid opinion. I have also read and  watched so many videos/comments/posts  from social media, and news that my head is spinning. I don't know enough to know what to watch or what is reputable so I am watching it all.  I have actually searched for one sided articles as well as unbiased. Sometimes I feel I learn more when listening to biased opinions as long as I find the other sides' biased opinions to compare.  Besides leaving my head spinning, I have been left with questions that I would love to ask but don't want to debate especially here.  I was wondering if someone would be willing to answer my questions privately? I promise I won't debate or attack as this is just for my knowledge. I am ok with it being one sided view because I have the other sides view locally. I don't personally know any Jews to ask these questions to.  I have searched for answers and I know that I have seen some in comments but my biased view is that welltrainedminders are more educated than the general population of commenters.  Anyway if this is not allowed then please delete. Again, I don't want a debate started here, which is why I won't ask the questions here.  You can private message me through the board if you are willing.  I would also love to discuss the politics of supporting Israel as a Biblical standpoint if any Christians want to help me understand this position more fully.  Again I was raised in the Bible belt and am Christian but don't have a firm enough grasp on this part either.  I hope this is not taken wrong and is received in the spirit it is meant to be asked, search for knowledge from ones closer to the crisis then I. 

[gardenmom5]

This conflict goes back centuries.

I'm not going to get too into it.  I have a Christian acquaintance that lives in Israel, and teaches college.  (her husband's family are jewish.)  And my son's childhood friend that did her MA at the University of Jerusalem.  

I would just like people to keep in mind - Arabs in Israel have more freedom than in arab countries.  (and arabs who live there will tell you that too.).

I would also suggest you ask your arab friend why no arab country will take in Palestinian refugees.

[HS Mom in NC]

Don't be surprised when people living in democracies support political ideologies that most closely resemble their democracy.  That's a separate issue from how a democracy actually functions relative to its own ideals because no democracy is operating without serious issues that need to be resolved and watched out for continually, but it's very hard for people living in democracies that promote tolerance and egalitarianism to lend political support to political leadership with ideologies that aren't on board with those things.

That's the big Islam problem.  It's hard to support political leadership in groups that appear to be inherently opposed to our political ideals. For Muslims who do want egalitarian and democratic rule, hopefully they'll "get the microphone" in addition to political influence to make cultural changes that match those values and we'll be able to in good conscience give them a seat at the table.

Separating religion and state is very important, even to religiously conservative people like me. While I can't condone homosexual behavior on religious grounds, I can in good conscience support gay marriage and the right of vetted by universal standards US citizens of all orientations to be chosen by birthmothers and adopt through fostercare. While I can't condone worshiping anyone other than the Christian God, I can fully support people's right to choose to worship or not worship who or whatever they choose without any negative governmental consequences so long as that worship don't infringe on any other person's rights.  While I don't condone divorce except in some situations, I can fully support the legal protection of both spouses and parents in fair, government recognized divorces.

We need that all around the world.

[Drama Llama]

23 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

This conflict goes back centuries.

I'm not going to get too into it.  I have a Christian acquaintance that lives in Israel, and teaches college.  (her husband's family are jewish.)  And my son's childhood friend that did her MA at the University of Jerusalem.  

I would just like people to keep in mind - Arabs in Israel have more freedom than in arab countries.  (and arabs who live there will tell you that too.).

I would also suggest you ask your arab friend why no arab country will take in Palestinian refugees.

Jordan currently houses 2 million Palestinian refugees, making up 20% of their population, plus about 2 million more from Syria and Iraq. 

I think it's fair to say that Arab countries take in more than their share of refugees.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

This board has a no politics rule that you might not be aware of as a new poster.  There is a political group on the Club tab that you might want to join.

[YaelAldrich]

Long ramblings, there are Jews in this board but since you are new to the board I know I'm more than wary of engaging with a complete stranger about this issue. Right now Jews are being verbally and physically abused unless they don't espouse any pro-Israeli views.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Long ramblings, there are Jews in this board but since you are new to the board I know I'm more than wary of engaging with a complete stranger about this issue. Right now Jews are being verbally and physically abused unless they don't espouse any pro-Israeli views.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that 😞 . What's been going on? 

And I am also not getting into it with someone I don't know. 

[YaelAldrich]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that 😞 . What's been going on? 

And I am also not getting into it with someone I don't know. 

(Multiple) kids in the neighborhood have been spat at and yelled at by pro-Palestinan people. 

LA and other Jewish communities have had vandalism and harassment as well.

Edited May 20, 2021 by YaelAldrich
additions, additions.

[Amira]

 

55 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

This conflict goes back centuries.

I'm not going to get too into it.  I have a Christian acquaintance that lives in Israel, and teaches college.  (her husband's family are jewish.)  And my son's childhood friend that did her MA at the University of Jerusalem.  

I would just like people to keep in mind - Arabs in Israel have more freedom than in arab countries.  (and arabs who live there will tell you that too.).

I would also suggest you ask your arab friend why no arab country will take in Palestinian refugees.

I’m curious why you think that Arab countries don’t take in Palestinian refugees. Is that something you see reported in the news you follow, or is it something you’ve been told?  I’m always surprised when I hear people say this when it’s so easily disproven.

(I’m really not trying to get you here, or make a point.  I just wonder where people think the over five million Palestinian refugees are living if they’re not in Arab countries.)

[Not_a_Number]

I'm just go to throw this out here, and judge me if you will -- however badly one thinks of Israel's behavior right now, the last few years in the US has made me feel pretty adamant that it needs to exist. Jewish history is replete with situations where Jews were welcome until they were not. I do not know whether my kids have a future in the US. I really hope they do, since I don't actually want to move to Israel. But I need it to exist. 

[YaelAldrich]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm just go to throw this out here, and judge me if you will -- however badly one thinks of Israel's behavior right now, the last few years in the US has made me feel pretty adamant that it needs to exist. Jewish history is replete with situations where Jews were welcome until they were not. I do not know whether my kids have a future in the US. I really hope they do, since I don't actually want to move to Israel. But I need it to exist. 

I'm with you 1000%. In fact I believe, as a Jew, we need a couple of choices of escape places. Until covid derailed our plans we were to have long term visas to another country that has historic good treatment of Jews (and we personally have high governmental friends there). We had them before. We will restart that process again soon. 

While a certain person was President I know many of my liberal, Orthodox Jewish friends made sure all papers and passports were in order in case everything went to pot and we needed to leave immediately.

[LongRamblings]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

This conflict goes back centuries.

I'm not going to get too into it.  I have a Christian acquaintance that lives in Israel, and teaches college.  (her husband's family are jewish.)  And my son's childhood friend that did her MA at the University of Jerusalem.  

I would just like people to keep in mind - Arabs in Israel have more freedom than in arab countries.  (and arabs who live there will tell you that too.).

I would also suggest you ask your arab friend why no arab country will take in Palestinian refugees.

Thank you for responding. I believe I know where you are going with this and can understand your points. I wish I had Jewish friends so that I could talk to them personally.  It has been going on for centuries and I know I am never going to understand it all but I do believe listening and educating myself will help me emphasize.  That is really all I can do. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, LongRamblings said:

Thank you for responding. I believe I know where you are going with this and can understand your points. I wish I had Jewish friends so that I could talk to them personally.  It has been going on for centuries and I know I am never going to understand it all but I do believe listening and educating myself will help me emphasize.  That is really all I can do. 

 

There are plenty of Jews on the board 🙂 . If you stick around, you’ll hear from everyone.

[LongRamblings]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Don't be surprised when people living in democracies support political ideologies that most closely resemble their democracy.  That's a separate issue from how a democracy actually functions relative to its own ideals because no democracy is operating without serious issues that need to be resolved and watched out for continually, but it's very hard for people living in democracies that promote tolerance and egalitarianism to lend political support to political leadership with ideologies that aren't on board with those things.

That's the big Islam problem.  It's hard to support political leadership in groups that appear to be inherently opposed to our political ideals. For Muslims who do want egalitarian and democratic rule, hopefully they'll "get the microphone" in addition to political influence to make cultural changes that match those values and we'll be able to in good conscience give them a seat at the table.

Separating religion and state is very important, even to religiously conservative people like me. While I can't condone homosexual behavior on religious grounds, I can in good conscience support gay marriage and the right of vetted by universal standards US citizens of all orientations to be chosen by birthmothers and adopt through fostercare. While I can't condone worshiping anyone other than the Christian God, I can fully support people's right to choose to worship or not worship who or whatever they choose without any negative governmental consequences so long as that worship don't infringe on any other person's rights.  While I don't condone divorce except in some situations, I can fully support the legal protection of both spouses and parents in fair, government recognized divorces.

We need that all around the world.

Thank you for your response. I really appreciate it, 

[LongRamblings]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

There are plenty of Jews on the board 🙂 . If you stick around, you’ll hear from everyone.

I just hope my questions don't come off as blaming either side.  It is  aimed at Jews because of my lack of personal encounters with them. Which  shows me I need some Jewish friends.  Honestly I didn't know anything about Palestinians until my daughter started working for Arabs and then later started dating their son. The family is definitely passionate about their views as they have family in Palestine, understandably, but I don't want to form an opinion based solely on their views without having  a Jewish perspective. Even then my views will forever be flawed because it won't be my experiences but I am trying. 

 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that 😞 . What's been going on? 

And I am also not getting into it with someone I don't know. 

Yesterday, for example, here in Los Angeles presumed Jews were attacked on the street by a gang of thugs as they dined on the sidewalk outside of a restaurant in a Jewish neighborhood.

Bill

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

Yesterday, for example, here in Los Angeles presumed Jews were attacked on the street by a gang of thugs as they dined on the sidewalk outside of a restaurant in a Jewish neighborhood.

Bill

 

Presumed?

[LongRamblings]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

This board has a no politics rule that you might not be aware of as a new poster.  There is a political group on the Club tab that you might want to join.

Oh, how do I join?  I actually was hoping people would just respond via private emails so this wouldn't get political here. I just don't know where else to ask these questions where I valued the opinions. 

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Presumed?

I have not check the latest news reposts, but there was speculation yesterday that some of those who were attacked were not Jewish.

I believe that the restaurant was a Jewish restaurant in a predominately Jewish section of town, but I'm shy on the details.

The people were attacked while they were dining outside.

Bill

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

I have not check the latest news reposts, but there was speculation yesterday that some of those who were attacked were not Jewish.

I believe that the restaurant was a Jewish restaurant in a predominately Jewish section of town, but I'm shy on the details.

The people were attacked while they were dining outside.

Bill

 

That’s terrible.

[LongRamblings]

1 hour ago, YaelAldrich said:

Long ramblings, there are Jews in this board but since you are new to the board I know I'm more than wary of engaging with a complete stranger about this issue. Right now Jews are being verbally and physically abused unless they don't espouse any pro-Israeli views.

I can understand that and am sorry it is that way. I would be wary as well. I have actually been around since I started homeschooling years ago but lost my password and couldn't recover it. Kahlanne was my original name.  I knew nobody may choose to answer because of these reasons but honestly don't know how to get information of people experiencing both sides without asking people I trust their educated opinions. I will continue to pray for both sides to find peace and will continue to try to learn more so I can understand and do what I can when I can to make the world better.  Much love sent your way. 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

That’s terrible.

Yes. I just checked one news story. Not a "Jewish" restaurant, but a sushi restaurant in West Hollywood.

Patrons were evidently asked to identify if they were Jewish or not, before they were assaulted.

Bill

 

[LongRamblings]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that 😞 . What's been going on? 

And I am also not getting into it with someone I don't know. 

Understandable.  Thanks for your honesty. 

[Pawz4me]

6 minutes ago, LongRamblings said:

Oh, how do I join? 

Try this link. If that doesn't take you to a page where you can request to join then post again and one of us will try to help.

[LongRamblings]

12 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Yesterday, for example, here in Los Angeles presumed Jews were attacked on the street by a gang of thugs as they dined on the sidewalk outside of a restaurant in a Jewish neighborhood.

Bill

 

Makes it more understandable that people are skeptical to discuss. I am so sorry that this happened. I had no idea. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, LongRamblings said:

Understandable.  Thanks for your honesty. 

I do think the politics board is a good idea 🙂

[YaelAldrich]

3 minutes ago, LongRamblings said:

I can understand that and am sorry it is that way. I would be wary as well. I have actually been around since I started homeschooling years ago but lost my password and couldn't recover it. Kahlanne was my original name.  I knew nobody may choose to answer because of these reasons but honestly don't know how to get information of people experiencing both sides without asking people I trust their educated opinions. I will continue to pray for both sides to find peace and will continue to try to learn more so I can understand and do what I can when I can to make the world better.  Much love sent your way. 

Kahlanne, I remember you. I hope you join the political group. 

[LongRamblings]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

Try this link. If that doesn't take you to a page where you can request to join then post again and one of us will try to help.

No it says can't locate the item. Is there a way to remove this question here and get it asked on the politics board? 

[Pawz4me]

@Amira-- Can you help with a link? I have the politics forum topics page bookmarked, but I have no clue how to send an invite.

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, LongRamblings said:

No it says can't locate the item. Is there a way to remove this question here and get it asked on the politics board? 

I don't know if it can be moved. If not, you can ask a moderator to lock or delete it and then re-post when you join the politics board.

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, LongRamblings said:

Kahlanne was my original name.  

I remember you — welcome back!  

[LongRamblings]

Just now, YaelAldrich said:

Kahlanne, I remember you. I hope you join the political group. 

Thank you. I don't post lots because I am not as knowledgeable as the rest of y'all.  I will say y'all have challenged my beliefs more times than not and been the catalyst for my challenging them myself. I tell my kids all the time that the reason I watch opposing politics more than those that share my view is because I already know how I feel and need to see if it stands the test when opposed.  Opposition will either destroy my opinion or make it stronger but  it is always better for the challenge.  It also gives me the opportunity to learn why others feel differently than I.  My new motto is that if my beliefs cannot stand up to my own challenges then they are only my opinion and not beliefs that I should hold with such force.   

Besides that you have all helped me tremendously over the years in my homeschool journey. My dyslexic child would have never graduated without that help!  She not only graduated but won a $20k scholarship to attend Cosmetology school and is graduating top of her class! Matter of fact, she was the only student to pass the boards test on the first try.  Want to hear something funny? She failed the corona questionnaire that is basicly  have you been exposed, etc because she thought the final question asking if you agree with the above answers was tricky. She had answered no to all the corona exposure/risk questions and couldn't understand how answering yes to the do you agree meant she wasn't agreeing that she was exposed but that she hadn't been. LOL. When they finally got through that she had to take a pretest on how to work the computer system and failed it because she said they were tricky questions as well. I am not sure how but they finally said she was out of time and just had to figure out the computer on her own.  She didn't have any trouble and passed with higher than an 80. Don't have official grade but all the others in her class failed and a few failed a second time.  Anyway, I know I wouldn't have made it through teaching her had it not been for the people helping me choose programs that worked for her. Thank you. 

 

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Yes. I just checked one news story. Not a "Jewish" restaurant, but a sushi restaurant in West Hollywood.

Patrons were evidently asked to identify if they were Jewish or not, before they were assaulted.

Bill

 

Whoa!!! I have words. None are polite enough to be shared on this forum.

This is what is scaring me. Fascists coming out of the woodwork. I would prefer they stay in their holes afraid to come out.

[Spy Car]

36 minutes ago, LongRamblings said:

I can understand that and am sorry it is that way. I would be wary as well. I have actually been around since I started homeschooling years ago but lost my password and couldn't recover it. Kahlanne was my original name.  I knew nobody may choose to answer because of these reasons but honestly don't know how to get information of people experiencing both sides without asking people I trust their educated opinions. I will continue to pray for both sides to find peace and will continue to try to learn more so I can understand and do what I can when I can to make the world better.  Much love sent your way. 

Here is my perspective. I am not religious, but am interested in all three Abrahamic faiths on an intellectual level and have studied all in depth. I grew up with many Jewish friends, consider myself "Jewish adjacent" and have been named an (unofficial) honorary Jew by rabbis in three different branches of Judaism--from ultra-orthodox to reform (liberal). I studied international relations in university with an emphasis in the Middle-East. My closest college friends went to Lebanon to cover the turbulence prior to the 1982 war with Israel. My plan was to join them, but the conflict broke out before I could do so.

My college cohort included a future (and current) UN ambassador from a neighboring Arab country, many other Arabs from Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia as well as many American Jews who ranged from strong Zionists to strong anti-Zionists. My two best college friends remained working journalists in the region.

I've studied the history of the region in depth. Learned to speak and write rudimentary Arabic. Have met with important leaders in the Palestine Authority and leading Palestinian intellectual figures.

What can I say? Both people have legitimate narratives. Both have legitimate aspirations. Both bleed. Both have committed atrocities. Both have amazing human capital. Both have a lot of assholes in their midst.

Neither people have been well-served by their leadership IMO. Hamas (a deliberate creation of the Israelis in large measure) is not a force for good. Likud is reprehensible. And the PA operates much like the Godfather.

The two societies are highly diverse and mirror one another (very strongly) and in many ways are more alike across cultures that within their own group. Both have educated individuals with liberal outlooks and both have narrow minded maximalists who want no concessions.

The situation keeps getting pushed to the extremes and that's not an accident. Hamas and Netanyahu each find it in their interest to have the situation inflamed.

It is neigh on impossible to have nuanced discussion online, and I may end up regretting this post.

For Americans to jump in and support one side while demonizing the other only add to the extremism and isn't helpful IMO. Both peoples have compelling narratives.

As to right-wing Christian support for Israel on some sort of theological basis, remember that many see Israel as something that's a precondition to their millennial hopes for a "second coming," but also remember that the Jews who don't convert upon Jesus' return are earmarked to burn in hellfires for eternity. Is that "friendship," or something else? 

Bill

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Spy Car

[SeaConquest]

55 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

There are plenty of Jews on the board 🙂 . If you stick around, you’ll hear from everyone.

We are not exactly a quiet group. 😁

[Drama Llama]

40 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I have not check the latest news reposts, but there was speculation yesterday that some of those who were attacked were not Jewish.

I believe that the restaurant was a Jewish restaurant in a predominately Jewish section of town, but I'm shy on the details.

The people were attacked while they were dining outside.

Bill

 

One of the best Kebab spots near me is kosher.  I imagine that if I was sitting outside eating my kebab people might presume I was Jewish, or at least people who are already going about making presumptions about people would.

Not that attacking me would be less or more awful than attacking Jews eating there.

 

ETA: Just read that this was apparently not the case in this particular case.

Edited May 20, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[LongRamblings]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Whoa!!! I have words. None are polite enough to be shared on this forum.

This is what is scaring me. Fascists coming out of the woodwork. I would prefer they stay in their holes afraid to come out.

I am sorry if my post is pulling you out of your safe space. That really isn't my intention.  Everyone deserves safety and I wish everyone had it.  Wishing it to happen doesn't help it seems so I am trying to learn so that I can live better and do a better job of teaching  the next generation that while politics is great to discuss always remember in all your grander choices to consider the individuals it impacts and what you can do to minimize the damage for yourself and others.  

[Tanaqui]

Without getting into any sort of details - because gosh, that's a tricky subject - it's important to remember that "Jewish" and "Israeli" are not synonyms and, for that matter, that Israelis are no more or less likely to agree with their government on everything their government does than Americans are.

It is extremely important to be clear on this topic.

[YaelAldrich]

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Here is my perspective. I am not religious, but am interested in all three Abrahamic faiths on an intellectual level and have studied all in depth. I grew up with many Jewish friends, consider myself "Jewish adjacent" and have been named an (unofficial) honorary Jew by rabbis in three different branches of Judaism--from ultra-orthodox to reform (liberal). I studied international relations in university with an emphasis in the middle-east. My closest college friends when to Lebanon to cover the turbulence prior to the 1982 war with Israel. My plan was to join them, but the conflict broke out before I could do so.

My college cohort included a future (and current) UN ambassador from a neighboring Arab country, many other Arabs from Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia as well as many American Jews who ranged from strong Zionists to strong anti-Zionists. My two best college friends remained working journalists in the region.

I've studied the history of the region in depth. Learned to speak and write rudimentary Arabic. Have met with important leaders in the Palestine Authority and leading Palestinian intellectual figures.

What can I say? Both people have legitimate narratives. Both have legitimate aspirations. Both bleed. Both have committed atrocities. Both have amazing human capital. Both have a lot of assholes in their midst.

Never people have been well-served by their leadership IMO. Hamas (a deliberate creation of the Israelis in large measure) is not a force for good. Likud is reprehensible. And the PA operates much like the Godfather.

The two societies are highly diverse and mirror one another (very strongly) and in many ways are more alike across cultures that within their own group. Both have educated individuals with liberal outlooks and both have narrow minded maximalists who want no concessions.

The situation keeps getting pushed to the extremes and that's not an accident. Hamas and Netanyahu each find it in their interest to have the situation inflamed.

It is neigh on impossible to have nuanced discussion online, and I may end up regretting this post.

For Americans to jump in and support one side while demonizing the other only add to the extremism and isn't helpful IMO. Both peoples have compelling narratives.

As to right-wing Christian support for Israel on some sort of theological basis, remember that many see Israel as something that's a precondition to their millennial hopes for a "second coming," but also remember that the Jews who don't convert upon Jesus' return are earmarked to burn in hellfires for eternity. Is that "friendship," or something else? 

Bill

 

 

 

 

Bill, you more or less said what I would say. I'm more hawkish in Israeli politics than American. But Bibi is trying to hang onto power he definitely doesn't deserve any more. I wish for peace. But not at the cost of my friends' and family's lives. I have an app set to alert me every time a barrage of Hamas and Hizbolla missles is launched into Israel. I recognize names of cities and villages I have visited and ones with friends and family having 0 seconds to 1.5 minutes to find safe shelter. It goes off all the time. If you want to join me, look on the app store for cumta red alerts. 

 

[Spy Car]

16 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Whoa!!! I have words. None are polite enough to be shared on this forum.

This is what is scaring me. Fascists coming out of the woodwork. I would prefer they stay in their holes afraid to come out.

Me too. But that ain't happening. And--hate to say it--fascists are not limited to one side.

Those who are inclined towards peace and mutual respect have been sidelined. It is tragic, as if/when Palestinians and Israelis come together, the possibilities are endless.

Bill

[LongRamblings]

10 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Here is my perspective. I am not religious, but am interested in all three Abrahamic faiths on an intellectual level and have studied all in depth. I grew up with many Jewish friends, consider myself "Jewish adjacent" and have been named an (unofficial) honorary Jew by rabbis in three different branches of Judaism--from ultra-orthodox to reform (liberal). I studied international relations in university with an emphasis in the middle-east. My closest college friends when to Lebanon to cover the turbulence prior to the 1982 war with Israel. My plan was to join them, but the conflict broke out before I could do so.

My college cohort included a future (and current) UN ambassador from a neighboring Arab country, many other Arabs from Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia as well as many American Jews who ranged from strong Zionists to strong anti-Zionists. My two best college friends remained working journalists in the region.

I've studied the history of the region in depth. Learned to speak and write rudimentary Arabic. Have met with important leaders in the Palestine authority and leading intellectual figures.

What can I say? Both people have legitimate narratives. Both have legitimate aspirations. Both bleed. Both have committed atrocities. Both have amazing human capital. Both have a lot of assholes in their midst.

Never people have been well-served by their leadership IMO. Hamas (a deliberate creation of the Israelis in large measure) is not a force for good. Likud is reprehensible. And the PA operates much like the Godfather.

The two societies are highly diverse and mirror one another (very strongly) and in many ways are more alike across cultures that within their own group. Both have educated individuals with liberal outlooks and both have narrow minded maximalists who want no concessions.

The situation keeps getting pushed to the extremes and that's not an accident. Hamas and Netanyahu each find it in their interest to have the situation inflamed.

It is neigh on impossible to have nuanced discussion online, and I may end up regretting this post.

For Americans to jump on and support one side while demonizing the other only add to the extremism and isn't helpful IMO. Both peoples have compelling narratives.

As to right-wing Christian support for Israel on some sort of theological basis, remember that many see Israel as something that's a precondition to their millennial hopes for a "second coming," but also remember that the Jews who don't convert upun Jesus' return are earmarked to burn in hellfires for eternity. Is that "friendship," or something else? 

Bill

 

 

 

I did my university training

Thank you for this.  Man was I right when I said that I knew welltrainedminders  was the place to find people that were educated and experienced on the topic.  I hope you don't regret this post as well which is why I asked people to message me rather than post here. I don't want hard feelings, etc to come from my need to learn.  I will say that a couple of the things you said I had formed the same opinion but wasn't sure if I was understanding things well enough to form those opinions or was it my bias or ignorance doing so. I was even doubting my intellectual ability to learn as I am not well spoken and had very limited education in politics and world on a grand scale before adulthood.  Anyway, thank you so much for the response. 

[SeaConquest]

I am a Jew. I support a strong defense for Israel, as it is surrounded by adversaries whose mission each day is to actively work towards its annihilation. I also pray for a two-state solution that will build a peaceful, liberal democracy for the Palestinians. Perhaps, that is a unicorn.

As for Christian support, I know it is an unpopular opinion, but as Bill said, I don't think most of these fervent Israel supporters give a hoot about Jews. It's all about the second coming of the big man for them, and Jews have no place in that world to come. So, forgive me if I am not impressed by this faux support.  

ETA: I also agree with Yael and Bill re Bibi. Times up, buddy. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by SeaConquest

[LongRamblings]

11 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Without getting into any sort of details - because gosh, that's a tricky subject - it's important to remember that "Jewish" and "Israeli" are not synonyms and, for that matter, that Israelis are no more or less likely to agree with their government on everything their government does than Americans are.

It is extremely important to be clear on this topic.

Hmmm.....ok. I originally thought this way but then the more videos and comments I read led me to believe that I was wrong.  I always understood that not everyone will agree with their government. I'll go one farther and say not all Christians will agree with other Christians, Jews with Jews, Palestinians with Palestinians, etc.

 

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Bill, you more or less said what I would say. I'm more hawkish in Israeli politics than American. But Bibi is trying to hang onto power he definitely doesn't deserve any more. I wish for peace. But not at the cost of my friends' and family's lives. I have an app set to alert me every time a barrage of Hamas and Hizbolla missles is launched into Israel. I recognize names of cities and villages I have visited and ones with friends and family having 0 seconds to 1.5 minutes to find safe shelter. It goes off all the time. If you want to join me, look on the app store for cumta red alerts. 

 

When I was 10 years old my dad edited an important television documentary called The Rise and The Fall of the Third Reich for ABC, based on William Shirer's book of the same name. I commonly tagged along with him on weekends while he worked. That gave me a window into the unexpurgated film footage taken by the Nazis that was far too strong to air then (or now). To say that it made an impression on me is an understatement. I made a vow to myself then that no matter the price that I would never stand by in the face of such an evil, whether directed at Jews (but certainly including Jews) or anyone else.

I consider myself very pro-Israel (at least when it comes to the survival of the people and the state), but at the same time I'm not anti-Palestinian (quite the opposite). I have a lot of anger towards those who have fanned the flames of hate.

I disagree with those who see this as a thousand year conflict that is unresolvable. In fact Arabs and Jews have lived in relative harmony for long periods of history. Israeli culture and Palestinian culture overlap very significantly. DNA tests continue to show that the genetic brotherhood is pretty strong as well.

These people could get it together IMO. Certain forces (on both sides) have worked against that, and deliberately so. Damn shame.

Bill

 

[YaelAldrich]

18 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Without getting into any sort of details - because gosh, that's a tricky subject - it's important to remember that "Jewish" and "Israeli" are not synonyms and, for that matter, that Israelis are no more or less likely to agree with their government on everything their government does than Americans are.

It is extremely important to be clear on this topic.

It's really nice to think that everyone makes that distinction. Too many people do not. Which is why I fear for my children's and my safety. The people who spat on my friend's child and get friend didn't ask if they were pro-Zionist or even Israeli. They just knew they were Jewish (because of their dress I'm assuming).

[Spy Car]

6 hours ago, LongRamblings said:

Thank you for this.  Man was I right when I said that I knew welltrainedminders  was the place to find people that were educated and experienced on the topic.  I hope you don't regret this post as well which is why I asked people to message me rather than post here. I don't want hard feelings, etc to come from my need to learn.  I will say that a couple of the things you said I had formed the same opinion but wasn't sure if I was understanding things well enough to form those opinions or was it my bias or ignorance doing so. I was even doubting my intellectual ability to learn as I am not well spoken and had very limited education in politics and world on a grand scale before adulthood.  Anyway, thank you so much for the response. 

You are more than welcome. I'd ugue to to become as informed on the matter as you care to be, but do attempt to resist becoming a pure partisan. When I said both sides have compelling narratives, that's not rhetoric. That's reality. These are compelling reasons to have sympathy for those on both sides in this conflict. Too many will grasp onto one narrative and to bash the other side as monsters. And there have been enough foul deeds that neither side is immune to fault-finding. KWIM?

The center has not held. That is a shame. There is tremendous potential there. 

Bill

ETA: Sorry I had a typo that destroyed my meaning entirely. Sorry for any confusion.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Spy Car

[LongRamblings]

14 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Bill, you more or less said what I would say. I'm more hawkish in Israeli politics than American. But Bibi is trying to hang onto power he definitely doesn't deserve any more. I wish for peace. But not at the cost of my friends' and family's lives. I have an app set to alert me every time a barrage of Hamas and Hizbolla missles is launched into Israel. I recognize names of cities and villages I have visited and ones with friends and family having 0 seconds to 1.5 minutes to find safe shelter. It goes off all the time. If you want to join me, look on the app store for cumta red alerts. 

 

I couldn't sleep well the last few nights just thinking about the plight of both Palestinians and Israelis. I am not talking about politics but the actual individuals, the moms, dads, grandparents, children.  I keep saying what if it was I that was needing to rush to a shelter in Israel or rushing from a targeted building in Gaza.  What if I disagree with who is in charge of making the decisions but don't have any real control over it.  Truth is Americans should be more sympatric to this plight than we sometimes are.  Our own elections exemplify how you can do everything in your power to have the person you want to lead be chosen but then realize the opposite was chosen instead.  (by this I am not limiting it to the last election.)   It is too easy to say choose better leaders.  And when it comes down to it, my heart is broken for them all. If I am struggling with the bias or lack of clear, precise answers, then how can I fault both countries for struggling as well?  

[YaelAldrich]

7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

When I was 10 years old my dad edited an important television documentary called The Rise and The Fall of the Third Reich for ABC, based on William Shirer's book of the same name. I commonly tagged along with him on weekends while he worked. That gave me a window into the unexpurgated film footage taken by the Nazis that was far too strong to air then (or now). To say that it made an impression on me is an understatement. I made a vow to myself then that no matter the price that I would never stand by in the face of such an evil, whether directed at Jews (but certainly including Jews) or anyone else.

I consider myself very pro-Israel (at least when it comes to the survival of the people and the state), but at the same time I'm not anti-Palestinian (quite the opposite). I have a lot of anger towards those who have fanned the flames of hate.

I disagree with those who see this as a thousand year conflict that is unresolvable. In fact Arabs and Jews have lived in relative harmony for long periods of history. Israeli culture and Palestinian culture overlap very significantly. DNA tests continue to show that the genetic brotherhood is pretty strong as well.

These people could get it together IMO. Certain forces (on both sides) have worked against that, and deliberately so. Damn shame.

Bill

 

There are so many times when the Israeli Arab (Christian and Muslim)/ Palestinian Arab people and Israeli Jews come together in peace and just plain old normal, everyday events. They know and we know if many of both sides' leaders would get out of the way some form of peaceful coexistence could happen. But those leaders can't have that happen.

[Spy Car]

16 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I am a Jew. I support a strong defense for Israel, as it is surrounded by adversaries whose mission each day is to actively work towards its annihilation. I also pray for a two-state solution that will build a peaceful, liberal democracy for the Palestinians. Perhaps, that is a unicorn.

As for Christian support, I know it is an unpopular opinion, but as Bill said, I don't think most of these fervent Israel supporters give a hoot about Jews. It's all about the second coming of the big man for them, and Jews have no place in that world to come. So, forgive me if I am not impressed by this faux support.  

ETA: I also agree with Yael and Bill re Bibi. Times up, buddy. 

I for one did not count Bibi out after to failing to secure a majority in--what is it 5 elections in a row now (losing count)?

He is wagging the dog. The raids on Al Aqsa were provocative and he got the response from Hamas that was his only path to remaining in power. And it works for Hamas as well. Extremists benefit from extremism. Feeds their power. 

Bill

[Swimmer1112]

6 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

It's really nice to think that everyone makes that distinction. Too many people do not. Which is why I fear for my children's and my safety. The people who spat on my friend's child and get friend didn't ask if they were pro-Zionist or even Israeli. They just knew they were Jewish (because of their dress I'm assuming).

The violence against Jews been getting worse. After the Jewish synagogue shooting in Poway, my dh told the kids not to wear anything that identifies them as Jewish or tell people that they are Jewish. Which was very sad for my son, who is very proud of being Jewish.