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35 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

But why do the Palestinians need to begin with a recognition of anti-semitism?

 

Is that an actual question? The answer seems beyond obvious.

I agree that European people (of which I include myself as an American of European extraction) must acknowledge the hatred of Jews. But why the Palestinians? What was that to them before the founding of Israel? 

Well, the question I posed last night re: Foster's "history lesson" was where where did the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem go when he was exiled by the British? The answer is he went to Nazi Germany where he aided Adolf Hitler and he provided similar assistance to Benito Mussolini. He was lucky to escape war-crimes charges for his collaboration. That the leading Palestinian political figure made common cause with the Nazis did not go unnoticed by Jews.

No one here has the mindset that sees Israel as evil and the Palestinians as uniquely suffering. 

That's definitely not the impression one gets from the messaging of many in the passionate populist-left these days. "Evil Israel" is becoming a near-constant trope and liberals who protest the one-sided caricatures tend to face anger in response. 

The Palestinians are supposed to continue suffering until world-wide anti-semitism is solved? Again - why is that their problem? Don't they have value of their own and deserve to have their suffering end? 

No, but lobbing rockets is not going to help their cause.

Bill

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44 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

But why do the Palestinians need to begin with a recognition of anti-semitism? I agree that European people (of which I include myself as an American of European extraction) must acknowledge the hatred of Jews. But why the Palestinians? What was that to them before the founding of Israel? 

That's an interesting question. Does that imply there was never anti-Jewish sentiment in Palestine? Did it only get sparked by the formation in Israel? Since the current Palestinians mostly didn't exist back then, who exactly would need to be anti-Semitic for the current population to be responsible? 

At the moment, certainly Palestinians are highly anti-Semitic, just like many Israelis are heavily anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab. That's what happens if you spend a few generations being terrified of each other and angry at each other. It benefits no one and it's damaging to both the populations. 

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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Asking this question is like asking why minorities in the USA don't have equal wealth with white people? The system is set up to keep that from happening. 

The Myth of a Palestinian Economy

It doesn't have to double but how do you stop that? Who tells the Palestinians that they can't have any more children? Can you imagine the outcry? What about the population growth in Israel from the ultra-Orthodox? Must that keep growing and how would you stop it? Can you stop one and not the other? 

Generally speaking, population growth slows when women have more economic opportunities other than forced sterilization and forced abortions. 

No one tells anyone to do anything, right? The point is that the doubling of the population is not Israel's responsibility, per se. 

Let's say one wanted the Palestinians to have an excellent economy. How do we envision this happening? What needs to happen? Or is this in fact a problem that's quite difficult to solve due to cultural issues related to having lived in an occupied land so far? What Middle Eastern economy could the Palestinian country aspire to be? 

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

No one tells anyone to do anything, right? The point is that the doubling of the population is not Israel's responsibility, per se. 

Let's say one wanted the Palestinians to have an excellent economy. How do we envision this happening? What needs to happen? Or is this in fact a problem that's quite difficult to solve due to cultural issues related to having lived in an occupied land so far? What Middle Eastern economy could the Palestinian country aspire to be? 

To have a modicum of a normal economy within the West Bank, Palestinians would need to be able to at least distribute things like fresh agricultural good across their territories. Currently (and not just in the current crisis) checkpoints make traversing  the West Bank between Palestinian cities very very difficult.

To say nothing of being largely cut off from the world economy.

Working in concert with Israel, the West Bank Palestinians could have a lively economy. Both people could benefit from peace and cooperation.

Bill

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9 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

To have a modicum of a normal economy within the West Bank, Palestinians would need to be able to at least distribute things like fresh agricultural good across their territories. Currently (and not just in the current crisis) checkpoints make traversing  the West Bank between Palestinian cities very very difficult.

To say nothing of being largely cut off from the world economy.

Working in concert with Israel, the West Bank Palestinians could have a lively economy. Both people could benefit from peace and cooperation.

Bill

Right. I would agree that having a culture of trust rather than distrust would be great for everyone involved. Peace is more prosperous than war. 

But how does one get this done, exactly? If you decrease the security at the checkpoints, you WILL increase the number of suicide bombers that get through. It would only take a few suicide bombers before Israelis decide this is a dumb solution and clamp down. And again... Israel is a teeny country. Everyone will have a cousin who was near the explosion. 

I can always figure out how to wave a magic wand and make sure that there's peace and prosperity. What I always have trouble with is actually imagining how to take the current situation, full of fallible and prejudiced and angry humans, and transform it into the situation I would like to wish into place with my magic wand... 

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9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. I would agree that having a culture of trust rather than distrust would be great for everyone involved. Peace is more prosperous than war. 

But how does one get this done, exactly? If you decrease the security at the checkpoints, you WILL increase the number of suicide bombers that get through. It would only take a few suicide bombers before Israelis decide this is a dumb solution and clamp down. And again... Israel is a teeny country. Everyone will have a cousin who was near the explosion. 

I can always figure out how to wave a magic wand and make sure that there's peace and prosperity. What I always have trouble with is actually imagining how to take the current situation, full of fallible and prejudiced and angry humans, and transform it into the situation I would like to wish into place with my magic wand... 

Unfortunately the checkpoints that are within Palestinian territory (linking their population centers) do not exist to to provide for Israel's security, but rather to make life difficult for those on the West Bank. Sorry to say, it is a form of harassment and economic oppression.

One could understand checkpoints coming from outside into Israel proper, but within the West Bank? It becomes part of a grind that saps people's energy and spirits. That's by intent. Sorry to say.

Bill 

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Just now, Spy Car said:

Unfortunately the checkpoint that are within Palestinian territory (linking their population centers) exist to to provide for Israel's security, but to make life difficult for those on the West Bank. Sorry to say, it is a form of harassment and economic oppression.

One could understand checkpoints coming from outside into Israel proper, but within the West Bank? It becomes part of a grind that spapps people's energy and spirits. That's by intent. Sorry to say.

Bill 

So would removing those suffice? Is that what's needed to make sure Palestine has a robust economy? What steps, exactly, can we imagine taking to fix this problem? Because I agree that it would benefit everyone to fix it. 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

You know how patriarchy is bad for men just as it's bad for women and children? Occupation is bad for occupiers too. 

Yes. I think I've said that at least 3 times in this thread. 

 

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

From my understanding, Jews and Palestinians lived together in Israel prior to the establishment of Israel. The Jews were a small percentage of the population. As more Jewish people moved to Israel, Palestinians began to become more hostile towards them because they believed them to be a threat. 

It's way more complicated than that. At some point, I tried to figure out who was "at fault" and got completely lost in the many, many threads. It's not a simple victim/oppressor story. It's a complicated region with a bloody history. 

 

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

What we think of as anti-semitism is European and Christian more than it was Arab and Muslim. 

I'd disagree there. I think the worst offenders have varied widely over the years. 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I know the story of the Grand Mufti. What about Charles Lindbergh and the Duke of Windsor? They were Nazi sympathizers. Does that mean that Americans and British were anti-semites? 

Yes 😛 . Many of them were. Ever read any 1920s and 1930s British fiction? It makes it pleeeeeeenty clear. 

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4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've never claimed that it's not complicated or that it fits into a simple victim/oppressor story. You can't go back in time and find any one person or group to place all of the blame on. There are even people at fault outside of the Middle East, like the British for example. We can't undo the past or fix everything at this point. But we should at least acknowledge that the situation today is unequal and needs to change. 

Sure. The situation today needs to change. The problem is that I have no idea how to make it change. I'm not Israeli and hope that I don't have to be, but I can tell you that years of living in fear have not made even relatively liberal Israelis flexible. Many people have absolutely no appetite for giving things without getting things in return. That's not me arguing that things shouldn't change -- that's me stating a fact that we're going to have to grapple with here. 

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Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

The average non-Jewish person living in Palestine was probably less anti-semitic than his/her American/British counterpart of the 1930s. 

How do you know? Jews were relatively integrated into British and American society despite the anti-Semitism. Was that the case in Palestine? (Genuine question. I don't know.) 

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Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I understand that. One of the reasons we are where we are is that America has coddled Netanyahu because our politicians are afraid of losing votes from Evangelical Christians. The USA bears tremendous blame for what has gone wrong in Israel. 

Netanyahu is a thug. I don't support him in any way, obviously. 

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11 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I know the story of the Grand Mufti. What about Charles Lindbergh and the Duke of Windsor? They were Nazi sympathizers. Does that mean that Americans and British were anti-semites? 

Charles Lindbergh was not the leading religious/political figure in the United States. Not the case with the Grand Mufti.

Had the Duke of Windsor been the monarch in the UK during WWII and had he actively collaborated with Hitler the way Haj Amin al-Husseini did, I think Jews would have greater cause for grievances, as opposed to the way things worked out.

Bill

  

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27 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So would removing those suffice? Is that what's needed to make sure Palestine has a robust economy? What steps, exactly, can we imagine taking to fix this problem? Because I agree that it would benefit everyone to fix it. 

Necessary (and helpful) but not fully succicient. A good start.

Imagine a 5 hour trip every time one attempted to get in or out of NYC.

Bill

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Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm trying to find the sources I've read before. There is controversy about what life was like for Jews in Middle Eastern countries prior to their expulsion after the founding of Israel. I've done some reading on that subject but it's been awhile. 

Were Jews integrated into American society before WWII? There were limits on their admission to the Ivies. There were covenants forbidding them from buying property in some places.

Are Asians integrated into American society? Because there are limits to their admission to the Ivies 😛 . As limits go, that one isn't THAT bad. I mean, yes, it means you're not in the ruling class, obviously... but there are many, many people in that category. 

I would guess it's quite hard to compare all this stuff, because the Middle Eastern countries are just very culturally different. I'm not sure I'd be able to compare it all. 

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Just now, Spy Car said:

Necessary (and helpful) but not fully succicient. A good start.

Imagine a 5 hour trip every time one attempted to get in or out of NYC.

Bill

I'm not arguing they shouldn't be removed. Mostly just pointing out that this would probably take it 0.1% of the way there, because as people have pointed out, most people who CAN leave Palestine, do. That's not a recipe for a robust economy. Neither is the cultural focus on getting rid of Israel. 

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3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I expect there are takers for a two-state solution. Just not one where lots of people give up their homes. It's human nature. 

 

It's also almost certainly not viable for Israel to absorb a large number of Palestinians and remain a Jewish state. That's a non-starter as well. 

How many Jews are living safely in the Palestinian lands? What would happen in Israel if there was a Palestinian majority? 

This is why I don’t think there is a solution to this conflict. 😞

This exact same thing can be said about Palestinians. By international law they have a right to return to their homes, but their homes are taken. More homes are razed and taken. It is human nature that people don’t want to give up their homes. Nobody wants to become a refuge and give up a home.
I might be Christian, but if somebody tell me to get up and go packing to a different Christian  country to make room for a minority, I wouldn’t want to give up my home. 
You are right. While prior to modern conflict Jews lived safely in Arab lands, that is no longer the case. Having a home for Jews is important. 
I think the only moral solution to this conflict is one state with equal human rights, but nobody is interested in my moral solution. Hence I think there is no solution to this conflict. 
I want to say we knew an old Palestinian men and we were shocked to discover who his best friends were, old Israeli Jews. He told us their families have been neighbors for generations and had really close friendship. I want to address Bill’s point here. Yes, these people have a lot in common, but it’s middle eastern Muslims and middle eastern Jews who have a lot in common. Russian Jews and middle eastern Muslims? (Using Russian as just an example. You can plug any other country really outside of Middle East). Nothing. So I am not optimistic at all about this conflict.

I do hope that at some point solution is found.
I don’t have a bone in this conflict, but I come from a land of ethnic strife, so I get it. It’s all painful and often so personal. I hope humanity wins out one day. 

 

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1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

I think the only moral solution to this conflict is one state with equal human rights, but nobody is interested in my moral solution. Hence I think there is no solution to this conflict. 

Sure. That'd be great. I'd like to have lots of other states in the Middle East have robust human rights, too. Again, if I could wave a magic wand, I'd fix a LOT of stuff. 

I'm not interested in abstractly moral solutions nearly as much as solutions that a) work and b) decrease human suffering as much as possible. Most abstractly moral solutions are equivalent to my wand-waving: they sound great but ain't gonna happen. 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, it's hard and it's not like the Middle Eastern countries today are like they were prior to the founding of Israel either. They were much more liberal and western before the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. 

Right. I don't think that any part of the world has a monopoly on fundamentalism or on liberalism. 

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Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

True but oppression leads to fundamentalism. The Middle East hasn't been left alone. The US and European nations have meddled in all of those countries and caused a lot of trouble. Islamic fundamentalism was a way of pushing back against American imperialism. 

Maybe. I tend to think things are a WHOLE lot more complicated than that. 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Sure. That'd be great. I'd like to have lots of other states in the Middle East have robust human rights, too. Again, if I could wave a magic wand, I'd fix a LOT of stuff. 

I'm not interested in abstractly moral solutions nearly as much as solutions that a) work and b) decrease human suffering as much as possible. Most abstractly moral solutions are equivalent to my wand-waving: they sound great but ain't gonna happen. 

I would love to see it everywhere honestly. 
we need to stop escalating, which means start by not razing Palestinian homes and building homes for Israelis on it.  This is what is literally happening right now and what I understand sparked the latest round of conflict. And in the process really thinking about two state solution. Or if Israel continues to build on over copied land, then it needs to take people with land. I think we all agree that one shall not kick people out of their homes. If anybody knows this, it’s Jews. Nobody has suffered as much as Jews. 
 

I have my own ethnic conflicts to solve ☺️

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Just now, Roadrunner said:

I would love to see it everywhere honestly. 
we need to stop escalating, which means start by not razing Palestinian homes and building homes for Israelis on it.  This is what is literally happening right now and what I understand sparked the latest round of conflict. And in the process really thinking about two state solution. Or if Israel continues to build on over copied land, then it needs to take people with land. I think we all agree that one shall not kick people out of their homes. If anybody knows this, it’s Jews. Nobody has suffered as much as Jews. 
 

I have my own ethnic conflicts to solve ☺️

Again, this is a wand-waving solution. Israel should stop razing homes and Palestinians should stop sending in suicide bombers. Agreed. But currently, the two sides loathe each other and aren't about to give in first. It's the usual game of "Chicken." 

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14 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Lindbergh was extremely popular in the USA before the war. He could have been elected president. He was a Nazi sympathizer and an ardent anti-semite. 

There are so many anti-semitic Christian leaders that you can't even list them all. Why the Grand-Mufti and not Pope Pius X? Because it serves a purpose. 

Lindbergh was popular in some quarters and reviled in others. My father--also a pilot (WWII)--considered Lindbergh to be a very dangerous Nazi-loving demagogue and would have opposed Lindbergh's political ambitions with full force. In any case, it is conjecture and borders on whataboutism.

The Grand Mufti made common cause with the Third Reich. That's an undeniable fact of history (despite Foster leaving it out of his video).

Pope Pius X was not the spiritual/political leader of the Palestinian people. So he isn't germane to the question at hand, which you asked, about the pre-WWII anti-Semitism of the Palestinians.

Bill

 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes 😛 . Many of them were. Ever read any 1920s and 1930s British fiction? It makes it pleeeeeeenty clear. 

 

Britain has a long history of anti-Semitism that extends way back from the early 20th C and into the present day. 

It also has a left wing Labor party that has just been censured by the Equality and Human Rights commission for failing to deal with its own institutional anti-Semitism. 

It also just experienced a weekend of pro-Palestinian protestors taking a convoy through a Jewish area of London calling for the rape of Jewish wives and daughters. 

Despite this, as you say, Jewish people are a fundamental and integrated part of Britain. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

So do you support forcibly removing a population from their homes? That’s ethnic cleansing. So how else can one accomplish giving Israel enough land to defend itself from military perspective and making sure it’s for Jews only? 
Palestinians also have ancestors tied to that land. I am not sure what the solution looks like to you. 
 

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I would like to recommend the book, The Lemon Tree by Sandy Tolan.  I have not read the whole thread, so if someone has already mentioned this book, I'm sorry for being repetitive. 

https://www.amazon.com/Lemon-Tree-Arab-Heart-Middle/dp/1596913436/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+Lemon+Tree&qid=1621653711&sr=8-1

I'm going to copy one of the Amazon reviews here, as I feel this review very accurately portrays the book.  I learned so much from reading it!

"Except for the fact that I became depressed in the second half of the book, this is just about a perfect non-fiction book about the Palestinian-Israeli differences and all the historical deceptions and betrayals that have led them to their current, apparently insolvable differences. I read it in the context of an Interfaith book group. We have, collectively, had trouble finding books that are even-handed in their coverage of religious differences. We find books good from one point of view or another and learn from each, but rarely have we found such a just and comprehensive book as this. Tolan uses the lemon tree and the specific focus on one Palestinian and one Israeli to open up the entire history, but the focus allows us to read it almost as a novel. The book includes many things that we did not know, such as the story of the Jews in Bulgaria and the Bulgarians non-compliance with their Third Reich ally--very thorough historically, well-researched.The depression I referred to is about any hope for resolution. The absolute intransigence of one side or another, all the lies told, the holding on to resentment from one generation to another, all seem to mitigate against any solution. We need to know all about this and try to understand as a first step. Almost as much harm seems to have been caused by outsiders thinking they can force a resolution upon the parties involved as by any stubbornness from the parties themselves. I highly recommend this book, as a way to learn an understand, as a very readable first step."

 

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55 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

So do you support forcibly removing a population from their homes? That’s ethnic cleansing. So how else can one accomplish giving Israel enough land to defend itself from military perspective and making sure it’s for Jews only? 
Palestinians also have ancestors tied to that land. I am not sure what the solution looks like to you. 
 

No, I don't support ethnic cleansing. Clearly. But I do support a homeland for Jewish people, remembering that almost a third of their population was exterminated within living memory, and given that there is very little appetite world wide to solve the scourge of anti-Semitism. I don't see how we can prevent another Holocaust without Israel. It would involve a global commitment to aggressively stamp out anti-Semitism. 

Wiser heads than mine have failed to solve this issue. I don't know if there is a non two-state solution that can both protect the rights of Palestinians and preserve a Jewish nation. So then I am pretty worried about what happens to Israeli Jews, and Jews worldwide left without refuge. Just as I am pretty worried about the lives of ordinary Palestinians. 

It's described as an intractable problem because it is. 

Ppl seem to be suggesting the solution of a one state in which Israel loses its status as Jewish homeland. That may solve some problems, while allowing others to emerge, fester and even explode. 

 

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I don’t know, but in the meantime I want to see a very firm hand prosecuting hate crimes. I hope a man (if we can call him that!) advocating for rape is in jail. 

Multiple men were arrested in the days afterward. I'm not sure it's the type of crime that will lead to jail time. It's not a hate crime on the basis of advocating for rape, as sex is excluded from legislation re hate crime in England and Scotland. 

 

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Has there ever been a talk of a federation? I wonder if smart people could figure something out that allows for Israeli defense over a federated country but a significant legal authority to each within their states? I know there will be gazillion nuances to work out, but maybe?

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6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Thinking more about the claim that Israel must remain a Jewish state in order to prevent another Holocaust. (Putting aside the questions about who is considered Jewish in Israel.)

How is this to be maintained? There is a significant growth in the Arab population in Israel. How do you maintain a democratic Jewish state with a population that is not majority Jewish? 

Second, this strikes me as unethical because it demands sacrifice from people for something that might happen in the future. People can choose to sacrifice to prevent it from happening in the future but it's unethical to demand that they sacrifice. 

Presumably expecting Israel not to respond to rocket attacks is also demanding some kind of sacrifice however?  

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4 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Are you suggesting that Hamas here is 100% the aggressor?

No but I’m suggesting that if someone fired rockets at the US would probably respond in kind even if the person firing the rockets had a legitimate grievance against the US.

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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

If anyone has reliable and accurate non emotive information on the specific Sheik Jarrah situation that sparked this latest crisis I’d be interested in reading it.  

This is a reasonable article with a very basic summary about Sheikh Jarrah.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-palestinians-sheikh-jarrah-eviction-east-jerusalem-explained/

Here's a NY Times article from 2010 that explains an earlier round of this legal battle.  https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/world/middleeast/10jerusalem.html

Here's a longer article about Sheikh Jarrah, written in 2010, from a pro-Israel source. At the very least, you can read their conclusion on page 71.  https://jerusaleminstitute.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/PUB_sheikhjarrah_eng.pdf

Here's part 1 of a 6-part series about Sheikh Jarrah from a pro-Palestinian source. It was recommended by a Palestinian friend of mine whose family has been part of the property disputes in the neighborhood.  https://www.facebook.com/hiddenpalestine/posts/1185263091896011

Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6

 

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5 minutes ago, Amira said:

This is a reasonable article with a very basic summary about Sheikh Jarrah.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-palestinians-sheikh-jarrah-eviction-east-jerusalem-explained/

Here's a NY Times article from 2010 that explains an earlier round of this legal battle.  https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/world/middleeast/10jerusalem.html

Here's a longer article about Sheikh Jarrah, written in 2010, from a pro-Israel source. At the very least, you can read their conclusion on page 71.  https://jerusaleminstitute.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/PUB_sheikhjarrah_eng.pdf

Here's part 1 of a 6-part series about Sheikh Jarrah from a pro-Palestinian source. It was recommended by a Palestinian friend of mine whose family has been part of the property disputes in the neighborhood.  https://www.facebook.com/hiddenpalestine/posts/1185263091896011

Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6

 

Thank you!

this is why I love this forum 

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53 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

That's amazing. 

I wonder if interacting anonymously with people on the internet is different when the interaction involves hearing others spontaneous words instead of reading their text? If we hear another person speaking, do we see them as more human than if we read what they type? 

 

Yes, I think this is true. Voice adds an element of humanity. Faces do so even more. 

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9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting article, although apparently most people can't listen in 😞 . 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/05/palestinian-israeli-clubhouse-conversation.html

It's interesting that the mods 'work hard to avoid participants re-litigating history'. That's definitely a barrier to movement, because it leaves people stuck in conflict. 

Sounds like a great use of a platform (that's only available to Apple users, I think). 

 

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On 5/21/2021 at 10:37 PM, Roadrunner said:

So do you support forcibly removing a population from their homes? That’s ethnic cleansing. So how else can one accomplish giving Israel enough land to defend itself from military perspective and making sure it’s for Jews only? 
Palestinians also have ancestors tied to that land. I am not sure what the solution looks like to you. 
 

Shabbat (the Jewish Sabbath) is over for me now. I'm glad to see this is so going in a rather genteel manner.

I just want to come in and say Jews and others (Arab Muslims and Christians, Beduion (so), Druse, Christians, Bahais etc) live together in many cities in Israel. There is an Arab judge in the supreme court, Arab political parties (who actually are part of this particular dust up), etc. They are allowed to serve in non combatant roles (Druse are allowed in combatant roles). There were riots in Jewish-Arab towns which surprised and saddened their Jewish neighbors.

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