Article critical of Classical Conversations

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

10 hours ago, maize said:

There are other valid reasons to outsource, including meeting the social and emotional needs of kids.

We’ve been very fortunate to be able to meet social / emotional needs through extracurriculars (sports, Scouts, etc) without handing over control of academic material.

Access to a robust homeschooling community was a major factor in our recent move. The local social co-op we’ve selected has a membership of >100 families, a chock-full calendar, & costs just $40 / year. 

[Farrar]

Wait... CC is $50 a week? So, for a school year, it's $1800? For middle school?

Um, you could easily find 3-4 good online yearlong classes with great teachers who are experts in the thing they're teaching whose classes have great reviews for that much for middle school.

Or, for social purposes, I've rarely heard of co-ops that cost anywhere near that much. And usually when they do, it's because it's a tutorial... with teachers who are experts in the thing they're teaching.

Yeah, that's cheaper than getting an individualized tutor. And some subjects are harder to find classes for than others. But CC's usually do them poorly anyway, like music. I mean, I understand what people are saying about marketing, the only community available, undermining people's belief they can do it (evil of them, that)... but I continue to be confounded by their success.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Farrar

[cintinative]

I found this for Challenge (7th through high school). The last I knew it met once per week. This is not including facility fees (vary by location), application fees (around $130), or lab fees ($50?). It is also less weeks of teaching than most online classes.

Tuition (30 weeks per student)................................................... $1,375/year 

 

For 5th/6th, it is $335 for Foundations, $335 for Essentials, plus app fees facility fees, etc.

Edited April 11, 2021 by cintinative

[kiwik]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:32 AM, Dmmetler said:

Which tells me they know nothing of music history, because a recorder is absolutely a "real instrument" if you're talking Renaissance music (and early Baroque). And let's face it-CC kids aren't playing any reels and jigs-they're doing the same sort of limited pitch stuff any other early beginners are. On an instrument which REQUIRES overblowing!!!

And the bigger recorders are beautiful sounding.  I like tin whistles too but it is an odd claim.

[8filltheheart]

The PRO bill will definitely undermine CC's model.  Unfortunately, it will also impact independent contractors across all spectrums.  (FWIW,while the title of the article doesn't connect with me since I am not a homeschooler who relies on these sorts of teaching models, I think the title probably accurately reflects that this will impact a lot of homeschoolers....co-ops, cottage schools, and many online providers) https://hsldaaction.org/post/how-a-labor-bill-will-make-homeschooling-harder

[cintinative]

35 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

The PRO bill will definitely undermine CC's model.  Unfortunately, it will also impact independent contractors across all spectrums.  (FWIW,while the title of the article doesn't connect with me since I am not a homeschooler who relies on these sorts of teaching models, I think the title probably accurately reflects that this will impact a lot of homeschoolers....co-ops, cottage schools, and many online providers) https://hsldaaction.org/post/how-a-labor-bill-will-make-homeschooling-harder

I have a friend who teaches for VIPKid and has posted about this. I hadn't thought about the implications for CC. For some reason, I thought that it had already been determined that their tutors were employees. Maybe that was a state by state thing..  Carol Topp has posted several articles about CC and churches/nonprofit status as regards property taxes lately. It sounds like that is starting to gain more attention.

[Wheres Toto]

There are a lot of places that are calling their people independent contractors when they really should be employees, even under the current laws.   This law seems to define it a little more narrowly but essentially the same rules apply - it has to do with whether the employee/contractor or the employer has control over the details.   

All the teachers at my business will be employees because I tell them when and where they need to do their work, even if I give them a lot of freedom on the how.  

[Farrar]

I just came to this thread to post about HSLDA's targeting this legislation. They try to make it sound in their press release like ooh, your local homeschool tutorial is in trouble. How will you find teachers. But come on, they're concerned about CC and pretty much nothing else. I could be misunderstanding it, but I'm pretty sure nothing else major in the homeschool world is big enough to come under this bill.

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

There are a lot of places that are calling their people independent contractors when they really should be employees, even under the current laws.   This law seems to define it a little more narrowly but essentially the same rules apply - it has to do with whether the employee/contractor or the employer has control over the details.   

All the teachers at my business will be employees because I tell them when and where they need to do their work, even if I give them a lot of freedom on the how.  

I know AoPS does this: we're all "independent contractors." Saves them a lot of money. Of course, we aren't actually independent... 

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I just came to this thread to post about HSLDA's targeting this legislation. They try to make it sound in their press release like ooh, your local homeschool tutorial is in trouble. How will you find teachers. But come on, they're concerned about CC and pretty much nothing else. I could be misunderstanding it, but I'm pretty sure nothing else major in the homeschool world is big enough to come under this bill.

Is this only targeting larger entities? 

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I just came to this thread to post about HSLDA's targeting this legislation. They try to make it sound in their press release like ooh, your local homeschool tutorial is in trouble. How will you find teachers. But come on, they're concerned about CC and pretty much nothing else. I could be misunderstanding it, but I'm pretty sure nothing else major in the homeschool world is big enough to come under this bill.

I dont really agree.  If you are under a single umbrella and the hrs and/or location are controlled by that umbrella, you would be an employee. Im sure this will impact a lot of online providers and cottage schools. Moms starting their little homeschool schools (coops) thinking they will be paying people more like a tutor...I think this law will classify them as employees.

[Goldcrest]

16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is this only targeting larger entities? 

No. It is extremely similar to the CA (sorry- law, not bill). By definition of the ABC standard (they’ve attempted to pass this bill for years) AOPSwould likely fall under it, as they dictate what you teach, and how you teach it. If you started your own tutoring service, obviously that would be different. But this would likely classify you as an employee. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Holmesschooler

[Roadrunner]

 

1 minute ago, Holmesschooler said:

No. It is extremely similar to the CA bill. By definition of the ABC standard (they’ve attempted to pass this bill for years) AOPSwould likely fall under it, as they dictate what you teach, and how you teach it. If you started your own tutoring service, obviously that would be different. But this would likely classify you as an employee. 

Is CA Bill new?

[Goldcrest]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

Is CA Bill new?

Sorry, no, I should have said law, not bill. The AB5. But Prop 22 impacted that I believe. 
 

@Not_a_Number here is a Forbes summary on this year’s PRO attempt. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2021/03/24/pro-act-and-abc-test-no-one-knows-what-the-effects-will-be/?sh=7561605339e6

 

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I dont really agree.  If you are under a single umbrella and the hrs and/or location are controlled by that umbrella, you would be an employee. Im sure this will impact a lot of online providers and cottage schools. Moms starting their little homeschool schools (coops) thinking they will be paying people more like a tutor...I think this law will classify them as employees.

At most of the tutorials I'm familiar with, the teacher chooses which slots to take and what to teach. Obviously the tutorial is providing the space and therefore has limits on the schedule options, but the teacher can opt in or out of any of those slots. For online providers, it's going to be even more loose as long as the teacher chooses their own time, then all the provider is doing is providing the platform... unless it's like AoPS or something and they provide the curriculum.

To me, the what they teach/do is more key. But maybe my legal reading of this is wrong. That would concern me more.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Farrar

[Not_a_Number]

32 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

No. It is extremely similar to the CA (sorry- law, not bill). By definition of the ABC standard (they’ve attempted to pass this bill for years) AOPSwould likely fall under it, as they dictate what you teach, and how you teach it. If you started your own tutoring service, obviously that would be different. But this would likely classify you as an employee. 

Yes, I've seen this play out with AoPS -- they've had to quickly redefine everyone who was based in CA. 

[Wheres Toto]

51 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I dont really agree.  If you are under a single umbrella and the hrs and/or location are controlled by that umbrella, you would be an employee. Im sure this will impact a lot of online providers and cottage schools. Moms starting their little homeschool schools (coops) thinking they will be paying people more like a tutor...I think this law will classify them as employees.

 

39 minutes ago, Farrar said:

At most of the tutorials I'm familiar with, the teacher chooses which slots to take and what to teach. Obviously the tutorial is providing the space and therefore has limits on the schedule options, but the teacher can opt in or out of any of those slots. For online providers, it's going to be even more loose as long as the teacher chooses their own time, then all the provider is doing is providing the platform... unless it's like AoPS or something and they provide the curriculum.

To me, the what they teach/do is more key. But maybe my legal reading of this is wrong. That would concern me more.

That's really how the current law is already supposed to work.   If you don't have control over what you do, when you do it and/or where you do it, you are supposed to be an employee.   But the current wording is kind of weak.  This feels more like a clarification of the way it's already supposed to be rather than a completely new law to me.   I've done a ton of looking into this with lots of discussions with tax experts because I hired my first employee last year.   I would have LOVED to be able to make them an independent contractor.  The taxes are a real PITA and it's not worth paying someone else to do them for one part time employee, so it adds to my work.   

An independent contractor is supposed to be more like a freelancer who chooses what jobs to take, may have a deadline/time constraint but works at their choice of time to get that job done before billing for their time, with no guarantees of future work.   Being able to opt in/opt out and pick your own "jobs" is key.   At least from what I've been told.

Interestingly, under part C if I worked for a co-op (I've been asked a few times), I would be considered an independent contractor because I own a business providing the same service.  

I looked up the full text of this, which is evidently an amendment to the Fair Labor Act and not something completely new, and seems to mostly be concerned with organizing and people who were fired in relation to attempts to organize workers.  

[Roadrunner]

Reclassify them as associates. I have seen this happen in CA, but not sure of the details. 
 

Adding - We have a family member on CA who went from being an employee to an independent contractor to an associate. He says he is still receiving medical insurance benefits, so I am not sure what those legal classifications have changed. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Roadrunner

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

At most of the tutorials I'm familiar with, the teacher chooses which slots to take and what to teach. Obviously the tutorial is providing the space and therefore has limits on the schedule options, but the teacher can opt in or out of any of those slots. For online providers, it's going to be even more loose as long as the teacher chooses their own time, then all the provider is doing is providing the platform... unless it's like AoPS or something and they provide the curriculum.

To me, the what they teach/do is more key. But maybe my legal reading of this is wrong. That would concern me more.

I would spend more time reading this site: https://www.labor.ca.gov/employmentstatus/abctest/

In order to be an independent contractor all 3 conditions have to be met.  This one makes me think that your interpretation is incorrect.  Co-op teachers are not like a one-time hire plumber or electrician coming to do job.  Teachers are hired to do the actual job of teaching on the premises.

Quote

PART B: Does the worker perform work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business

• Employment proffered by the company (Great N. Constr., Inc. v. Dept. of Labor (Vt. 2016) 204 Vt. 1, 161 A.3d 1207).

 

In analyzing Prong B of the ABC test, the California Supreme Court in Dynamex explained:

 

• Contracted workers who provide services in a role comparable to that of existing employees will likely be viewed as working in the usual course of the hiring entity’s business.

 

The California Supreme Court in Dynamex provided the following examples of Prong B being applied:

• Prong B is satisfied (e., services are not part of the hiring entity’s usual course of business):
  • When a retail store hires an outside plumber to repair a leak in a bathroom on its premises.
  • When a retail store hires an outside electrician to install a new electrical line.
• Prong B is not satisfied (e., services are part of the hiring entity’s usual course of business):
  • When a clothing manufacturing company hires work-at-home seamstresses to make dresses from cloth and patterns supplied by the company that will thereafter be sold by the company.
  • When a bakery hires cake decorators to work on a regular basis on its custom-designed cakes.

 

[Roadrunner]

I don’t understand the appeal of CC for all the reasons stated above,  but from little interaction I have had with people who were part of it, they all felt their choice was academic as well as social. CC seems to have done a great job selling itself as a classical education leader. Parents seem to be convinced it’s a better educational choice than coops. And it gives them an instant community. Why people don’t do it themselves? It beats me. Especially since all the families tend to be religious and already have a community through church youth groups. 
I have been on this board for long enough to raise my eyebrows every time I hear CC. 

[Clemsondana]

Our co-op structure has tried to make sure that we aren't classified as employees, but who knows how things will change in the future.  We are maybe comparable to hair stylists who rent a chair at certain times on certain days.  I mean, we have a schedule but they ask us when we want to teach and if we don't like it we don't do it.  I do biology and agreed to do a middle school earth science and ecology class this year but have said no to a request to do anatomy in other years.  I say that I can teach before 2pm and prefer to be done by noon, so that's when I teach.  I pay a percentage of my pay from parents as rent/facilities costs.  If a student outside of my usual parameters (grades 9-12, no adds at midterm) requests to join the class, I can make whatever decision I want about adding them or not.  I hope we don't get roped in to this sort of thing someday.  

[8filltheheart]

18 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Our co-op structure has tried to make sure that we aren't classified as employees, but who knows how things will change in the future.  We are maybe comparable to hair stylists who rent a chair at certain times on certain days.  I mean, we have a schedule but they ask us when we want to teach and if we don't like it we don't do it.  I do biology and agreed to do a middle school earth science and ecology class this year but have said no to a request to do anatomy in other years.  I say that I can teach before 2pm and prefer to be done by noon, so that's when I teach.  I pay a percentage of my pay from parents as rent/facilities costs.  If a student outside of my usual parameters (grades 9-12, no adds at midterm) requests to join the class, I can make whatever decision I want about adding them or not.  I hope we don't get roped in to this sort of thing someday.  

I don't think the hair dresser example you used would actually be a contractor based on the ABC test unless the hair dresser has their own independent business that they actually operate somewhere else or empl and they are just going to that salon as a side.  (See Where Toto's academic example above.)

[Clemsondana]

55 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't think the hair dresser example you used would actually be a contractor based on the ABC test unless the hair dresser has their own independent business that they actually operate somewhere else or empl and they are just going to that salon as a side.  (See Where Toto's academic example above.)

That's why this is all weird...the person who cuts my hair works at a store and then cuts hair on Fridays.  She rents a chair at a small shop and sometimes is the only one there - she decides how early to start and how late to work.  During the early scary days of Covid, she made house calls and cut our hair on my mom's back porch.  Her benefits are from her store job.  We make appts by texting her.  If she doesn't cut on a particular Friday, then she's losing money because she rents the month and has paid for that day.  It's weird to think of her as an employee.  Some of our co-op teachers are stay at home parents or retirees, but others own their own businesses (not related to co-op) or have other jobs. The person teaching health next year is a nurse.  My kids took a fun Magic Treehouse class from somebody who worked nights in a diagnostic medical lab.  A lot of us do this more for love than money, although we are happy to be paid, so it's frustrating to see it tossed around with legal terms that don't relate to how we think of it or what we actually need or want.  Sigh...not sighing at you, just the rigidity of legal frameworks.  

[SoCal_Bear]

Speaking as a CPA, the CC tutors are most definitely misclassified and have always been misclassified. They have no control over where, when, and what to teach. This has been my issue with them all along because they have not offered clarity as a corporation and wrongly in my opinion told directors it was their responsibility to figure out what their obligations were as CC could not offer guidance. Sorry, that's dodging the issue. If they have changed that stance recently, then all I can say is finally and about time.

The main issue is who has control. A co-op who invites a outside teacher to come and teach. Allows said teacher to control when they teach and they are free to turn it down or request other times. Said teacher retains complete control of what curriculum, what happens in the classroom, control over the fees that are charged, collects their own fees, etc. Said teacher was regularly engaged in providing similar services outside of said co-op. Then I would be satisified that they would meet the criteria that is proposed.

My other issue with CC is that it sure seems like when it is convenient they put on the business hat...when it is not they say they are a ministry in order to silence dissent and criticism.


 

Edited April 24, 2021 by calbear

[8filltheheart]

56 minutes ago, calbear said:

Speaking as a CPA, the CC tutors are most definitely misclassified and have always been misclassified. They have no control over where, when, and what to teach. This has been my issue with them all along because they have not offered clarity as a corporation and wrongly in my opinion told directors it was their responsibility to figure out what their obligations were as CC could not offer guidance. Sorry, that's dodging the issue. If they have changed that stance recently, then all I can say is finally and about time.

The main issue is who has control. A co-op who invites a outside teacher to come and teach. Allows said teacher to control when they teach and they are free to turn it down or request other times. Said teacher retains complete control of what curriculum, what happens in the classroom, control over the fees that are charged, collects their own fees, etc. Said teacher was regularly engaged in providing similar services outside of said co-op. Then I would be satisified that they would meet the criteria that is proposed.


 

Does the C definition apply to "regularly engaged in teaching in the home" vs as an employee somewhere satisfy the condition?  Someone who is a former professional but now retired?  Someone who works in a different field than they are teaching?  

I'm not even sure about A. Most co-op classes are offered during the scheduled co-op time, not random times selected by the teacher. (It isn't like the teacher can say they want to offer the class on Tues evenings at 7 if the co-op runs MWF from 8-12.   They might be able to say Friday from 10-12, but they didn't have unlimited hrs to choose from.

[SoCal_Bear]

@8filltheheart I would say teaching in your home would not count because it is not paid work. This definition would be addressing are you engaged in similar work for compensation. IRS doesn't care one whit about voluntary activity.

Yes, there are obvious limits to when the co-op is operating. Does the person have the freedom say this is my availability or not. Or does the group say you must be available at these times and compel someone to provide services. Obviously an IC would say that they have limits within the operating hours of the co-op. For example, dan the IC turn around and offer said similar service outside of the group for compensation at a time and choosing of their convenience? Nobody might do it, but the key is whether they have that control and freedom. For CC, you must be available from x time to y time for all tutors. CC you can't do it outside of their control. In fact, they are fairly controlling about how the materials are to be used as well.

[8filltheheart]

23 minutes ago, calbear said:

@8filltheheart I would say teaching in your home would not count because it is not paid work. This definition would be addressing are you engaged in similar work for compensation. IRS doesn't care one whit about voluntary activity.

Yes, there are obvious limits to when the co-op is operating. Does the person have the freedom say this is my availability or not. Or does the group say you must be available at these times and compel someone to provide services. Obviously an IC would say that they have limits within the operating hours of the co-op. For example, dan the IC turn around and offer said similar service outside of the group for compensation at a time and choosing of their convenience? Nobody might do it, but the key is whether they have that control and freedom. For CC, you must be available from x time to y time for all tutors. CC you can't do it outside of their control. In fact, they are fairly controlling about how the materials are to be used as well.

I don't know.  I see a fine line between CC and how most paid co-op/cottage schools are run.  I think the main difference outside of these ABC requirements are HUGE.  (CC is a controlling business and doesn't really pay their non-teachers (bc tutors are not teachers.)  But, in terms of the ABC regulations, co-ops run in a specific place, during specific times, and they often even select the curriculum being used. Some have statements of faith that need to be signed. Some have co-op guidelines that control how they function, etc.    Those seem to fall under a bakery hiring decorators to decorate their signature cakes on a regular basis more than a plumber coming in to do a single job.

[Dmmetler]

I know at my community center, we have both independent contractors and contracted teachers. The former hold classes onsite, but they do their own registration/payment and pay the center for the space. For the latter, the center handles the registration and payment, and cuts a check. 

I'm a contracted teacher, but I don't get benefits or anything like that, and they really don't tell me what to do, I can set my own schedule and hours, and just let them know when I'm going to be there, etc. If I want to offer group classes vs private lessons, or go to offering only hour long lessons, that's my prerogative. If I want to stop teaching preschoolers, again, it's up to me.  It's just that they handle the money and pay me my contracted amount vs my handling the money and paying THEM a contracted amount, and that they do the IRS withholding for me. 

 

 

[Lori D.]

I see your argument @8filltheheart. I esp. wonder how that will play out for online course providers, or cottage schools, as you say.

A lot may come down to semantics. The main thing I keep seeing in that ABC "test" is the phrase "hiring entity". Really, what is meant *exactly* by that phrase???

I get my hair cut by a woman who has a similar set up as described by the poster above. It is a big store front that has been sub-divided into several dozen small individual salons which are rented by the cosmetologists. She is NOT hired by anyone, but is self-employed and sets her own prices for the services she chooses to offer, and collects from the clients that she books. Her only connection to the facility is that she pays rent for the use of the space, so it is NOT a hiring entity. Even when she used to work at a salon, each stylist was renting her individual chair/space ("station") and set her own hours, offered services of her choice, set her own fees. In that case, part of the "station" rental was getting the use of the communal receptionist who would make the bookings with whoever the client wanted to book with. The stylists also each had keys to the salon, so they could do special wedding styling or other services at times/days when the salon was closed and the receptionist was not working -- so the stylists are still able to independently do their business and were not dictated to by the salon.

Similar to @Dmmetler, my co-op is NOT a "hiring entity." No money goes through them to me. I choose what courses and materials I will use. (In fact, I create my own curricula and lessons.) Parents directly pay me. Out of what I collect, I donate a portion to the church, so as to not be "beholden" to the homeschool group or the church facility in any way. The church has a free day during the week that they are happy to open up their facility to the homeschool group, and I set my own class times, just coordinating with several other teachers who are doing the same thing so that we aren't overlapping to maximize classes that students can take. If the homeschool group or church facility attempted to dictate to me in any way, I would be free to walk away and offer my classes elsewhere to other families, on the day and at the time I chose. I have been offering classes now for 9 years, and have done so out of several different venues, including my home. I can't imagine how in any that is NOT an independent contractor...

Edited April 24, 2021 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

Yes, @Lori D. that sounds like an independent contractor.  I agree.  That isn't the way I see most co-ops or cottage schools running.  (So many have popped up around here lately.)  Say that a co-op says they are YE or the opposite and want evolution/OE and secular....is that control?  If parents pay an enrollment fee to the co-op and parents enroll through the coop?  The coop controls number of students or ages of students?  (I see so many areas where it isn't like someone just offering a class where they are just using the location.)  

[Wheres Toto]

It does seem like in some cases it may come down to who the "clients" are paying.  Do they pay a main entity (co-op, salon, etc) or are they paying the individual provider?  

Around here most salons have their stylists rent their chair/space but clients pay a central desk and all prices are set by the salon.   Often the stylists also have to work a minimum number of hours, sometimes a minimum number of weekend or evening hours, to continue "renting" their chair.  Most clients probably don't even realize the stylists aren't employees (I only do because my cousin is a stylist).   That seems to be a case where they should be employees or should be allowed to set their own pricing, etc. 

The same probably applies to coops.  I don't think having to pick working hours from a range of available hours will automatically switch them to employees if all the other things are within their control.     

[Jean in Newcastle]

5 minutes ago, SJan said:

I find it amazing how you all assume we are stupid, unable to think and decide for ourselves, only able to blindly follow others who will obviously take advantage of us. Your view of home educating mothers is demeaning. It’s shocking and eye-opening to read these comments from people who think they are superior and know better somehow. 

You do realize that we are all home educating mothers, right?