Article critical of Classical Conversations

[Farrar]

Things the hive taught me about years ago:

Whistleblowers Say Classical Conversations is Multi-Level Marketing Scheme that Exploits Homeschooling Parents

I posted this locally and some people got pretty ticked. Hey, maybe people here will get ticked too! 

I get why a lot of people like CC on the ground as members and why a lot of people stick with it or even know about this, but overlook it. But as a business, I think they're so dirty.

[Terabith]

Thank God somebody finally said it!

[Farrar]

44 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Thank God somebody finally said it!

That was my exact reaction!

[cintinative]

WOW.  I am so shocked at how little these people were making and working so many hours.  

[8filltheheart]

THanks for sharing the article.  I cannot understand the appeal of CC.  I also cannot understand why churches continue to allow them to use their spaces.  I wonder if more churches, forget about homeschoolers who are lured in, understood the business model if they would refuse to give them the space.  That would undermine their ability to function.

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

THanks for sharing the article.  I cannot understand the appeal of CC.  I also cannot understand why churches continue to allow them to use their spaces.  I wonder if more churches, forget about homeschoolers who are lured in, understood the business model if they would refuse to give them the space.  That would undermine their ability to function.

Somewhere I remember seeing a discussion about whether or not a church hosting a for-profit business affects the church's 501 c 3 status. I think it does, at least in some states?

[Farrar]

19 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Somewhere I remember seeing a discussion about whether or not a church hosting a for-profit business affects the church's 501 c 3 status. I think it does, at least in some states?

I don't know the ins and outs of this, but I think they can rent to whoever and can also decide who to rent to and how much (or little) to charge without any real penalty to their status.

[Farrar]

I find the money really dismaying. It's one thing if you're giving of your labor to your own local co-op where costs are kept minimal and control is on you. That's literally a labor of love and I have nothing but respect for that. In this case though, they're giving money and labor to a multi-million dollar business that is profiting off their labor and not always being upfront with them about the financial and time commitments involved. Not only that, but is exploiting what is essentially a religious calling to educate their kids in order to reinforce the idea that they should give their labor away for next to nothing. I just find it really gross.

This is happening in various ways across the educational spectrum - society tells women our labor is worth less and tries to sell this idea that if people truly love educating, that we should all work for pennies to prove our love. It infuriates me.

And all that is aside from the educational issues I have with CC. Like, it could be the best product in the world and this would still be a business model that I found really gross. But the truth is that I think CC undermines homeschoolers' ability to customize and sells the idea that you really need them - neither of which is good. And I think their approach to classical education is far to rigid and narrow. I think it's terrible for kids with any type of learning difference. It's Eurocentric in ways that go way above and beyond... like, people often level this criticism at SWB, and I don't want to say I don't think it's fair in some ways, but I appreciate all the ways she has tried to present a balanced look at world history. CC's approach doesn't even try.

[Lilaclady]

I have friends who are directors who have said they realized they were making less than minimum wage but I didn’t realize it’s so bad. I think the allure of community is what draws a lot in. I was interested but when I saw they don’t allow kids to progress at their own pace, I backed out. We have a lot of CC communities around me and I do wish my kids could get a community but it’s hard. 

[Goldcrest]

The comments on that article page are entertaining. 

[goldenecho]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

like, people often level this criticism at SWB, and I don't want to say I don't think it's fair in some ways, but I appreciate all the ways she has tried to present a balanced look at world history. CC's approach doesn't even try.

SWB?   Story of the World Books?   Something else?

[Goldcrest]

🤮 from the comments on Farrar's link:

Quote

I got a link this morning to read this article. It’s the same article slightly modified from 4 years ago. Here is the issue that this group of “disgruntled” folks miss in every single article and letter they write. For them, it’s always a return to the money (which is adequately skewed to perfectly adorn their narrative) What do they leave out, you may wonder? The why. Why aren’t these disgruntled people leaders anymore? It is always portrayed as voluntary. Strange that they never address that. If they won’t say, I will leave them covered. The heartbeat behind CC is the outcome of the parents and students. Tens of thousands of successful transitions to adulthood. Tens of thousands of students able to articulate their Biblical Worldview. Tens of thousands of students offered scholarships AND specifically recruited because of their CC education! Not to mention the Parents whose educations have been redeemed. CC has never pretended it wasn’t a business-ever- at any time. Even now, while bashing CC, this site is asking for money, while complaining about CC being greedy. With their profits, CC is spreading the Gospel, translating home education materials, and supporting emerging homeschooling in 48 countries currently. What is it this site is collecting money for? In CC, the blessing for parents to be able to rise up, be trained, and grow in their homeschooling ability and be able to pay for the program with their earnings is a blessing to most. I’m sorry this very important teacher felt slighted. Why did she not feel empowered to just- go get another job? I feel a sorrow for this repeated letter because the continued pursuit is going to rot guts. I imagine these pursuits cause great distress in the family to have a pursuit against the beautiful move of God happening across the world. You are missing it! This article makes accusations and a weak generalization using a ridiculous sample to bash a curriculum publisher and tutoring service that is VOLUNTARY to be a part of. No one is coerced to lead. Dozens of hours of leadership training are provided. Primarily women, and thousands of them, are empowered. Women are trained and given leadership skills that they can take to other positions. The Scriptures tell us that everything concealed will be revealed. We are at peace with that. Are you? Yes, I have been in CC for 15 years and successfully graduated 3 kids…so far. At least give a balanced view!

Does the first bolded myth in particular come specifically from Classical Conversations recruiting material? 

The second & third bolded......wow

[forty-two]

32 minutes ago, goldenecho said:

SWB?   Story of the World Books?   Something else?

Susan Wise Bauer

[wathe]

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

This is happening in various ways across the educational spectrum - society tells women our labor is worth less and tries to sell this idea that if people truly love educating, that we should all work for pennies to prove our love. It infuriates me.

 

Truth.

[stripe]

21 hours ago, Farrar said:

This is happening in various ways across the educational spectrum - society tells women our labor is worth less and tries to sell this idea that if people truly love educating, that we should all work for pennies to prove our love. It infuriates me.

It’s not even just in homeschooling. People expect employees to be so grateful to have a job that they shouldn’t somehow also need one that pays enough for them to live on. There was even a case of modern slavery in Oklahoma involving the John Pickle company, where DOZENS of Indian workers, who had been solidly middle to upper class, were supposed to be so grateful to be on American soil, rather than starving on the streets (others’ opinions of what life is like in India), that being enslaved and paid a few dollars a day was perfectly fine.

Edited March 26, 2021 by stripe

[Sneezyone]

22 hours ago, Farrar said:

I find the money really dismaying. It's one thing if you're giving of your labor to your own local co-op where costs are kept minimal and control is on you. That's literally a labor of love and I have nothing but respect for that. In this case though, they're giving money and labor to a multi-million dollar business that is profiting off their labor and not always being upfront with them about the financial and time commitments involved. Not only that, but is exploiting what is essentially a religious calling to educate their kids in order to reinforce the idea that they should give their labor away for next to nothing. I just find it really gross.

This is happening in various ways across the educational spectrum - society tells women our labor is worth less and tries to sell this idea that if people truly love educating, that we should all work for pennies to prove our love. It infuriates me.

QFT but not just in education. I've been railing about this in the military spouse community FOREVER. Gung-ho 'Senior Spouses' pitch the patriotism, selflessness and glory of your (free) contributions to your partner's career while taking full and shameless advantage of your hard-earned (and expensive to procure/offer) management/leadership/hostessing skills. They both tell you how valuable you are and offer you zero compensation for your work...and it is work to do it well. Some even take it as an affront when you say they should be paid. Given the ridiculous number of overeducated and underemployed spouses, paying them to do more effective, hands-on family support work would be a major win-win.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Farrar]

50 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

QFT but not just in education. I've been railing about this in the military spouse community FOREVER. Gung-ho 'Senior Spouses' pitch the patriotism, selflessness and glory of your (free) contributions to your partner's career while taking full and shameless advantage of your hard-earned (and expensive to procure/offer) management/leadership/hostessing skills. They both tell you how valuable you are and offer you zero compensation for your work...and it is work to do it well. Some even take it as an affront when you say they should be paid. Given the ridiculous level of overeducated, underemployed spouses paying people to do more effective, hands-on family support work would be a major win-win.

Ugh. Yeah, I feel like I see it so often in education because that's my background, but it's in every arena where women traditionally dominate. 😞 

[Goldcrest]

I don’t mean to derail and haven’t been a round here for a long time but.......where did everyone go? I am flabbergasted to see a CC post and only a handful of replies. The boards are really slow; it’s a different place than I remember. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

I don’t mean to derail and haven’t been a round here for a long time but.......where did everyone go? I am flabbergasted to see a CC post and only a handful of replies. The boards are really slow; it’s a different place than I remember. 

I think a lot of the current regulars aren’t the CC sort.

[cintinative]

Carol Topp posted this article on FB in the I am a homeschool group leader group that she runs and I assure you there was commentary.

@Holmesschooler I don't think we have many CC families anymore.  Those that tried it, didn't like it or left.   Most of us on here are more about flexibility in choosing the right curriculum for our kids and CC (at least in the middle/high school level) doesn't allow for that. You use what they use, and at the pace that they specify.  

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think a lot of the current regulars aren’t the CC sort.

It's also WAAAAAY slower than the old days. Like, seven years ago, this would have been a massive nasty fun argument.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

It's also WAAAAAY slower than the old days. Like, seven years ago, this would have been a massive nasty fun argument.

Yeah, I’ve seen some of the old threads.

Honestly, I like my forums to move quicker than this, but I haven’t found any Facebook groups that are truly academic... and that’s where things are fast nowadays.

[Garga]

2 hours ago, Holmesschooler said:

I don’t mean to derail and haven’t been a round here for a long time but.......where did everyone go? I am flabbergasted to see a CC post and only a handful of replies. The boards are really slow; it’s a different place than I remember. 

Someone started a new forum and some of the more conservative WTMers went there. I took a look around at that forum, but the font is so tiny and the spaces so crowded, I have too much trouble reading it. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Garga

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Garga said:

Someone started a new forum and a lot of the more conservative WTMers went there. I took a look around at that forum, but the font is so tiny and the spaces so crowded, I have too much trouble reading it. 

Hmmmm. Interesting. It’s sad we couldn’t all get along 😞 .

What forum?

[Garga]

Also, I think some people started posting on FB pages only.  Plus new homeschoolers who are new to WTM are on the WTM Facebook pages and might not even understand that this forum is here.

[Goldcrest]

49 minutes ago, Farrar said:

It's also WAAAAAY slower than the old days. Like, seven years ago, this would have been a massive nasty fun argument.

Yeah, that’s exactly what I was getting at.  Many I guess have moved on and graduated all their kids too.  I remember when Wendy started one like this and it was great. I see she isn’t around anymore. Good memories at least. The dancing bacon was always a pick me up. 

[Clemsondana]

What's mind-boggling about this, if those numbers are accurate, is that many who teach homeschoolers, often at low rates as a labor of love, still make more money than that while having far more flexibility and a much more pleasant work environment.  At our co-op, PE is one of the less expensive classes because it has no prep or grading.  Families pay $15/month/student.  If the teacher has 15 students, that's $225...after paying rent/admin fees, they'd still have $200, and they teach more than one class during the day.  At $600/month, times 8 or 9 months...they're doing better than a CC director?  And, what most of us love about teaching there is that we can teach whatever we want.  I mean, we're filling specific courses like biology or PE or music theory, but there's nobody telling us how to do it.  I struggle to see why CC would be the preferred way to teach or serve the homeschool community, even if I liked the content.  In my area, those who want to serve homeschoolers do low, but better than that, paid jobs at co-ops or do actual volunteer work like coach academic or sports teams or help with socials or do extra work at the co-op of our choice, and those of us who stick with it often do it because not only do we love the kids, but the adults are our social group, too.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

Also, I think some people started posting on FB pages only.  Plus new homeschoolers who are new to WTM are on the WTM Facebook pages and might not even understand that this forum is here.

What are the WTM Facebook pages like? 

[daijobu]

 

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

What's mind-boggling about this, if those numbers are accurate, is that many who teach homeschoolers, often at low rates as a labor of love, still make more money than that while having far more flexibility and a much more pleasant work environment.  

Thanks for bringing this up!  I was annoyed a few weeks ago to read on a local homeschooling list this complaint:

It's really cool how many great classes are popping up now that more parents are willing to consider online education. I'm just wondering about the prices here. These courses are stunningly expensive. Is that at all off-putting? Do any of you have a metric you use (such as $/class hour) when you decide which courses to take? Am I behind the times in thinking that $50/hour of instruction is shockingly high? Or am I guilty of devaluing education? (I mean, it's true that I'd love teachers to be paid like rock stars. However, when it comes to buying my own kids' education I do exert a little bit of sense when it comes to the budget....)

I was angry, but couldn't bring myself to respond and fortunately no one else responded and the topic died a hasty well-deserved death.

I left a co-op I was teaching at because I was only clearing $80/hour.  Now, on my own I'm earning $150 as a math tutor.  Yes, it's a labor of love, but I find that:

1. People take me seriously when they are paying me significant money.
2. People equate price with quality.
3. The more money I make the better I feel about myself.  
4. My DH in retirement still earns orders of magnitude more than me just for having a conversation with a hedge fund.  Also short selling.  

[Noelle]

I’ve seen rather heated debates over CC and the topic of memorization on Facebook, but I think those groups tend to have a different focus than this one.

I also *think* (but I could be wrong) that a lot of people on the chat board aren’t actively homeschooling. I get the impression that many of them used to homeschool but don’t anymore, so that’s naturally going to lead to different discussions. 

I see the appeal of CC as far as belonging to a group, and I know there are people who join just for that reason. But I think freedom in choosing curriculum is one of the great things about homeschooling, and that’s why I’ve found it hard to join groups in general. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, daijobu said:

 

Thanks for bringing this up!  I was annoyed a few weeks ago to read on a local homeschooling list this complaint:

It's really cool how many great classes are popping up now that more parents are willing to consider online education. I'm just wondering about the prices here. These courses are stunningly expensive. Is that at all off-putting? Do any of you have a metric you use (such as $/class hour) when you decide which courses to take? Am I behind the times in thinking that $50/hour of instruction is shockingly high? Or am I guilty of devaluing education? (I mean, it's true that I'd love teachers to be paid like rock stars. However, when it comes to buying my own kids' education I do exert a little bit of sense when it comes to the budget....)

I was angry, but couldn't bring myself to respond and fortunately no one else responded and the topic died a hasty well-deserved death.

I left a co-op I was teaching at because I was only clearing $80/hour.  Now, on my own I'm earning $150 as a math tutor.  Yes, it's a labor of love, but I find that:

1. People take me seriously when they are paying me significant money.
2. People equate price with quality.
3. The more money I make the better I feel about myself.  
4. My DH in retirement still earns orders of magnitude more than me just for having a conversation with a hedge fund.  Also short selling.  

I've had to stop offering tutoring to homeschoolers, because the prices they want to pay are so low for our area that I don't even know what to say. Like, no, you can't have a math tutor with a Ph.D in NYC who works with your kid for $25/hour. No can do, I'm sorry. Oh, you're now offended? Come on, now. Why did I even bother?? 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Noelle said:

I also *think* (but I could be wrong) that a lot of people on the chat board aren’t actively homeschooling. I get the impression that many of them used to homeschool but don’t anymore, so that’s naturally going to lead to different discussions. 

Yep, definitely true. There's definitely a larger group of ex-homeschoolers than current homeschoolers on here. 

[daijobu]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've had to stop offering tutoring to homeschoolers, because the prices they want to pay are so low for our area that I don't even know what to say. Like, no, you can't have a math tutor with a Ph.D in NYC who works with your kid for $25/hour. No can do, I'm sorry. Oh, you're now offended? Come on, now. Why did I even bother?? 

My DH enjoys reminding me that I still make less than a plumber.  Or an interior decorator.  

[Garga]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What are the WTM Facebook pages like? 

I guess it’s just one page. 

It’s like any FB page. Someone posts something and people comment.

I find it is a horrible format for conversation.  If you know how FB works, there will be comments, and then if someone comments on a comment, then it tabs in, like an outline. But you never know when someone will have commented on someone’s comment unless you click on all the comments every single time you read the post, and then you have to scroll through to try to figure out what you might have missed.  And things get pushed down the FB home page and disappear so you can’t find them again anyway. 

FB is not the place for lengthy responses to the sorts of topics that come up here.  

I’m part of the FB group, but I never even bother reading the posts anymore. It’s just pointless. You can’t have a real discussion.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Garga

[medawyn]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've had to stop offering tutoring to homeschoolers, because the prices they want to pay are so low for our area that I don't even know what to say. Like, no, you can't have a math tutor with a Ph.D in NYC who works with your kid for $25/hour. No can do, I'm sorry. Oh, you're now offended? Come on, now. Why did I even bother?? 

That is offensive.  I tutored in NYC more than a decade ago, and I never worked for less than $50 an hour for short term, generic tutoring.  Plus, if I charged that low, I usually knew the family or situation.  My specialty tutoring ran $125/hour.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Garga said:

I guess it’s just one page. 

It’s like any FB page. Someone posts something and people comment.

I find it is a horrible format for conversation.  If you know how FB works, there will be comments, and then if someone comments on a comment, then it tabs in, like an outline. But you never know when someone will have commented on someone’s comment unless you click on all the comments every single time you read the post, and then you have to scroll through to try to figure out what you might have missed.  And things get pushed down the page and disappear so you can’t find them again anyway. 

FB is not the place for lengthy responses to the sorts of topics that come up here.  

I’m part of the FB group, but I never even bother reading the posts anymore. It’s just pointless. You can’t have a real discussion.

I don't mind FB groups necessarily, and I've run thoughtful and interesting Facebook groups before, but the rapid response thing means that they require really attentive and thoughtful moderation. And most people aren't willing to put in the time to do that for free. So, most of the time, either FB groups are ridiculous free-for-alls where some people are very mean, or they are so restricted on what you're allowed to post that they don't allow for interesting discussions. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, medawyn said:

That is offensive.  I tutored in NYC more than a decade ago, and I never worked for less than $50 an hour for short term, generic tutoring.  Plus, if I charged that low, I usually knew the family or situation.  My specialty tutoring ran $125/hour.  

Yep. I always felt kind of burned by the whole interaction. Like, YOU are offended that I won't do it?? I should be offended you're offering me as much as you'd offer a high school kid. 

And that's why I'm not even offering anymore, lol. I'd rather not offend anyone... 

[Miss Tick]

Interesting about tutoring costs. In my neck of the woods they tend to be more in the $25/hour range (as far as i know, and I've never priced a math tutor). However, my entire life is size medium, including the local cost of living, so i would expect NYC hourly rates to be higher than local-to-me. That said, if you tell me your rate and i can't afford it, it wouldn't occur to me to take offense. That is weird.

[8filltheheart]

Most tutoring I am aware of is around $25-40/hr.  (And, yes, I have had a PhD math tutor who was incredibly kind and taught my kids very, very inexpensively.  She even drove to my house when I had a baby.  🙂  Kathy in Richmond was an incredible blessing to our family!  Ds says she is partly responsible for his achievements.  🙂 ) 

[Terabith]

My oldest did CC for three years, because it was the ONLY co-op around here, and I was desperate to meet other homeschoolers and for my kid to play with other kids.  The educational philosophy drove me completely insane, and during K-2, nobody really cared if we actually did any of the work, so we definitely didn't, other than playing the cd in the car.  But I would bring up questions like, "Why are we doing such schizophrenic, surface level topics that are so completely developmentally inappropriate," and I was chastised for actually trying to get my kid to understand ANY of the history sentences, because they were supposed to memorize without understanding, since the topics were so developmentally inappropriate.  

Plus science was taught by people who knew absolutely nothing about science.  The whole thing was honestly grotesque, and I really don't get the people who have built their entire homeschool around CC.  

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Most tutoring I am aware of is around $25-40/hr.  (And, yes, I have had a PhD math tutor who was incredibly kind and taught my kids very, very inexpensively.  She even drove to my house when I had a baby.  🙂  Kathy in Richmond was an incredible blessing to our family!  Ds says she is partly responsible for his achievements.  🙂 ) 

I can imagine doing this for a friend at a discount, yes 🙂 . As is, the classes I run locally cost peanuts. But no, that's not the standard rate in NYC, given the cost of living, and I couldn't really afford to do that except as a favor. 

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

But I would bring up questions like, "Why are we doing such schizophrenic, surface level topics that are so completely developmentally inappropriate," and I was chastised for actually trying to get my kid to understand ANY of the history sentences, because they were supposed to memorize without understanding, since the topics were so developmentally inappropriate.  

Any examples of the crazy history sentences?? I'm now curious. 

[Wheres Toto]

We have a few CC communities but they don't seem to be a big thing around here.   Probably because we have absolutely no homeschool requirements, so no pressure and lots of unschooling, and there are a ton of groups doing park days and ala carte classes to choose from so it's not hard to find friends/a community.  

I was never the right kind of Christian for CC, but I also was never willing to pay those kinds of prices for some random parent to teach my kids when I could teach them for a lot less with some really high quality materials geared to their exact needs. 

I never understood the appeal. 

[Terabith]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Any examples of the crazy history sentences?? I'm now curious. 

The one that really bothered me when my kids were like five and seven was:  "In 1789, the French Revolution began when citizens stormed the Bastille and fought for the Declaration of the Rights of Man.  Later, during the Reign of Terror, the aristocrats' heads were removed by the guillotine."  

There was just so much to unpack there, in a week, with kids who found Dora the Explorer too scary.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

The one that really bothered me when my kids were like five and seven was:  "In 1789, the French Revolution began when citizens stormed the Bastille and fought for the Declaration of the Rights of Man.  Later, during the Reign of Terror, the aristocrats' heads were removed by the guillotine."  

There was just so much to unpack there, in a week, with kids who found Dora the Explorer too scary.  

Oh my goodness. How are kids not to supposed to notice certain... issues in this sentence?? What, are you supposed to train robots that don't think about the meanings of words?? 

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh my goodness. How are kids not to supposed to notice certain... issues in this sentence?? What, are you supposed to train robots that don't think about the meanings of words?? 

Yes.  Precisely.  

[Lori D.]

58 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Most tutoring I am aware of is around $25-40/hr...

Agree. So much depends on what area of the country you live in. We are slightly higher than average COL, but have always had low-wage jobs for the majority of workers. Plus all of the homeschoolers are single-income families, many just scraping by. So a quick search of my area shows that tutors average $15-$30 for 30-60 minutes. The only way you could get $50+/hour here is if you have specialized abilities, such as working with dyslexia, or have specialized training, such as Orton-Gillingham.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Lori D.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

The only way you could get $50+/hour here is if you have specialized abilities, such as working with dyslexia, or have specialized training, such as Orton-Gillingham.

For the record, I have specialized training, lol. Unless math doesn't count? 

[historically accurate]

30 minutes ago, Terabith said:

The one that really bothered me when my kids were like five and seven was:  "In 1789, the French Revolution began when citizens stormed the Bastille and fought for the Declaration of the Rights of Man.  Later, during the Reign of Terror, the aristocrats' heads were removed by the guillotine."  

There was just so much to unpack there, in a week, with kids who found Dora the Explorer too scary.  

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. How horrible!

[Lori D.]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

For the record, I have specialized training, lol. Unless math doesn't count? 

I doubt it would count here, if someone else, often a university student, can offer tutoring of high school math for $15-25/hour. 😉 

As the saying goes, you just "can't squeeze blood out of a turnip" -- if homeschoolers are barely making it on that single income (driving one car, no frills living), they just can't pay $50+/hour -- even $15-$25/hour is going to be extremely difficult for them to swing more than once or twice a month... 😢