What can we, as individual US citizens do to improve the division (non-political)

[Sneezyone]

Just to clarify, saying, I don’t like that BLM organization is like saying I don’t like that civil rights movement organization. Well which one? NAN, ADL, ACLU, NAACP, NUL, La Rasa, Voto Latino? They all organize separately and together, have distinct platforms and issues, and all fall under the civil rights movement umbrella. There is no BLM organization. I’m beginning to feel like the inability to identify either an organization or problematic platform is very telling. Where does this information or misinformation come from?

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Junie]

4 hours ago, Mommalongadingdong said:

Yeah. I KNOW I KNOW my opinions on the thread are crap.

But it's so white saviory to me to have some lady join a spanish speaking church to learn about them and be taught by them? What do you want, a tamale recipe?  

We are not a commodity. 

Like how far removed are you to think you need to join a spanish speaking church to get to know Hispanics? 

If some white lady wanted to befriend me to get to know me and mine, yeah, I'd be beyond wary and know what's up. But learning Spanish, visiting a church, knowing our "struggle", doesn't make you an ally. 

I understand your concern and it is something that I think about.  I am aware that people might be questioning my motives.  I have questioned them myself.

The Spanish church is part of the church that I've attended for 20 years.  One of my good friends attends Spanish and English services.  (She's from South America.)  She has been trying for years to speak Spanish with me, but we've always ended up speaking English because my Spanish had been so limited. 

I also know the pastor.  They both encouraged me to attend when I said that I wanted to improve my Spanish skills.  They also both know that I'm friendly and I was interested in getting to know the people in the Spanish church better.  (I've seen many of the people from Spanish church in the hallways or at parties, exchanged holas/buenos dias, a few longer conversations in a mixture of Spanish and English.)  

I try to be very respectful.  I know that I am a guest.  I mostly listen.  I have been attending now for over a year and I have been mostly warmly welcomed.  (I could tell at the beginning that a few people were wondering why I was there.)

I have learned about the Hispanic community in a way that I wouldn't be able to do unless I was with them.  Seeing the struggles of bi-lingual parents raising kids who only speak English.  Seeing the joy on a woman's face because after 20 years(!) she is another step closer to being a citizen.  Hearing them pray for the country they love that doesn't always love them back.  Watching the heartbreak of a mother with her young child because he still lives in Central America and can only come once a year for a visit.  Talking with someone about how exhausting it is to speak in a second language for extended periods of time.

It has been humbling and rewarding.

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Junie said:

I try to be very respectful.  I know that I am a guest.  I mostly listen.  I have been attending now for over a year and I have been mostly warmly welcomed.  (I could tell at the beginning that a few people were wondering why I was there.)

I have learned about the Hispanic community in a way that I wouldn't be able to do unless I was with them.  Seeing the struggles of bi-lingual parents raising kids who only speak English.  Seeing the joy on a woman's face because after 20 years(!) she is another step closer to being a citizen.  Hearing them pray for the country they love that doesn't always love them back.  Watching the heartbreak of a mother with her young child because he still lives in Central America and can only come once a year for a visit.  Talking with someone about how exhausting it is to speak in a second language for extended periods of time.

It has been humbling and rewarding.

I think you're doing a good thing. It's hard work learning about another community. 

[SereneHome]

40 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There is no *actual* organization to believe/not believe in. BLM is a movement of people like me who stand for and advocate for racial justice and fairness in policing. I suppose there are people who do not believe in those things but, to your earlier question, no, we could not be close friends.

Yeah, sorry. I meant what the movement stands for vs simply believing that lives of black people matter.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SereneHome said:

Yeah, sorry. I meant what the movement stands for vs simply believing that lives of black people matter.

So, what does the movement stand for to you?

[Not_a_Number]

It's a sprawling, grassroots movement, correct? So where is this idea that it "stands for" anything much other than the fact that Black Lives Matter coming from? 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

It's a sprawling, grassroots movement, correct? So where is this idea that it "stands for" anything much other than the fact that Black Lives Matter coming from? 

This is what I’m asking! lol. In the words of King George, I’m perplexed.

[Not_a_Number]

We were all talking about respecting facts on this thread. So what facts about BLM bother you? As everyone has noted, the slogan seems pretty unimpeachable... 

[Moonhawk]

@Sneezyone I know you've said there's no organization, and so I'm seriously not questioning you because all I've got is Google, but...I found Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc.and am wondering if this is the confusion ?? I'll edit this out once I understand better so I don't sow my confusion everywhere. 

 

[SereneHome]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

So, what does the movement stand for to you?

So I know very little about it. I was asking general question, not from my own position.

I know this is a very personal topic for you, and I probably shouldn't have asked.

[kirstenhill]

1 minute ago, Moonhawk said:

@Sneezyone I know you've said there's no organization, and so I'm seriously not questioning you because all I've got is Google, but...I found Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc.and am wondering if this is the confusion ?? I'll edit this out once I understand better so I don't sow my confusion everywhere. 

 

I was wondering the same thing.  I read this article that said it did not have 501c3 status and each chapter works independently, but if it has "chapters" it seems like an organization of some sort.  https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/npo-spotlight/black-lives-matter

[Sneezyone]

29 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

@Sneezyone I know you've said there's no organization, and so I'm seriously not questioning you because all I've got is Google, but...I found Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc.and am wondering if this is the confusion ?? I'll edit this out once I understand better so I don't sow my confusion everywhere. 

 

There are no names, for Pete’s sake. It’s a shell. And if you look at the ‘platform’, such as it is, it’s the same loose set of aims I already articulated. It’s not a real organization, there are no directly linked regional chapters. There are, as I said, local organizations that organize under a singular umbrella. No one is paying for licensed BLM gear, for ex. The name belongs to all.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[frogger]

Just now, Moonhawk said:

@Sneezyone I know you've said there's no organization, and so I'm seriously not questioning you because all I've got is Google, but...I found Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc.and am wondering if this is the confusion ?? I'll edit this out once I understand better so I don't sow my confusion everywhere. 

 

I was just going to reference this.

 

Also smaller local organizations might also make statements that add to specific ideas or broaden the over all subject that might add in things that people might disagree with such as specific policies or reparations or any number of things. 

I don't know if this is what people are seeing but it could be part of the confusion.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

So I know very little about it. I was asking general question, not from my own position.

I know this is a very personal topic for you, and I probably shouldn't have asked.

I don’t have a problem with you asking or me answering. I simply cannot grasp disliking something for which you, or anyone, don’t have information. On what are you basing your dislike?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

There are no names, for Pete’s sake. It’s a shell. And if you look at the ‘platform’, such as it is, it’s the same loose set of aims I already articulated. It’s not a real organization.

So your point is that there's no centralized structure setting goals and telling the chapters what to do, right? (There might be one at some point, just not yet.) 

[SereneHome]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I don’t have a problem with you asking or me answering. I simply cannot grasp disliking something for which you, or anyone, don’t have information. On what are you basing your dislike?

But again, I wasn't asking from my perspective. I was asking as a general question - if you know someone who doesn't support BLM but believes that lives of black people should matter, would you be friends with that person. I didn't say that they wouldn't have any info about the movement.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So your point is that there's no centralized structure setting goals and telling the chapters what to do, right? (There might be one at some point, just not yet.) 

YES. THIS.

[SereneHome]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

You admit that you know very little about it but you seem to have a negative opinion. Where does come from? I'm not trying to rag on you here but it seems like this is a good example of what is being discussed on this thread. 

You are right, this is a GREAT example of how things are made up from nothing!

Show me one post that says or implies that I have a negative opinion of BLM

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SereneHome said:

But again, I wasn't asking from my perspective. I was asking as a general question - if you know someone who doesn't support BLM but believes that lives of black people should matter, would you be friends with that person. I didn't say that they wouldn't have any info about the movement.

But the question is what that could mean. What about "I am not racist, but I think we should segregate the schools again." Is that a meaningful sentence? What does it MEAN? 

[Carol in Cal.]

A foundation is usually a charity, a fundraising arm of some area or cause.

Maybe what some are looking for is this:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SereneHome said:

You are right, this is a GREAT example of how things are made up from nothing!

Show me one post that says or implies that I have a negative opinion of BLM

You don't seem to have much of an opinion of it, from what I've seen, but you also seem to be aware that some people don't like it even though you don't think of them as racist. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SereneHome said:

But again, I wasn't asking from my perspective. I was asking as a general question - if you know someone who doesn't support BLM but believes that lives of black people should matter, would you be friends with that person. I didn't say that they wouldn't have any info about the movement.

The one interaction I had with someone like this did not end well so I’m gonna go with NO.

[Not_a_Number]

To be explicit here, not supporting BLM can be used as evidence of racism. It might not be intentional racism, it might not be conscious racism, but it's racism nonetheless. Especially given that there IS no global movement, just a bunch of people waving signs and saying that Black Lives Matter.

[Carol in Cal.]

The back story, self-told:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/herstory/

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

The one interaction I had with someone like this did not end well so I’m gonna go with NO.

Fair enough.

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

The one interaction I had with someone like this did not end well so I’m gonna go with NO.

What happened, if I may ask? 

[Not_a_Number]

From Wikipedia: 

 

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a decentralized political and social movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality and all racially motivated violence against black people.[2][3][4][5][6] While there are specific organizations like the Black Lives Matter Global Network that label themselves simply as "Black Lives Matter", the Black Lives Matter movement is comprised of a broad array of people and organizations. The slogan "Black Lives Matter" itself remains untrademarked by any group.[7] The broader movement and its related organizations typically advocate against police violence towards black people as well as for various other policy changes considered to be related to black liberation.[8]

In July 2013, the movement began with the use of the hashtag #BlackLivesMatter on social media after the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting death of African-American teen Trayvon Martin 17 months earlier in February 2012. The movement became nationally recognized for street demonstrations following the 2014 deaths of two African Americans, that of Michael Brown—resulting in protests and unrest in Ferguson, Missouri, a city near St. Louis—and Eric Garner in New York City.[9][10] Since the Ferguson protests, participants in the movement have demonstrated against the deaths of numerous other African Americans by police actions or while in police custody. In the summer of 2015, Black Lives Matter activists became involved in the 2016 United States presidential election.[11] The originators of the hashtag and call to action, Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tometi, expanded their project into a national network of over 30 local chapters between 2014 and 2016.[12] The overall Black Lives Matter movement is a decentralized network of activists with no formal hierarchy.[13]

Edited November 10, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What happened, if I may ask? 

Suffice it to say that it ended with a series of nasty memes of protests in which the only people arrested and charged were not BLM protesters.

[Moonhawk]

56 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I would have a problem with Black Lives Matter being at my church.  That organization, not that black lives don't matter but I do not like racism and do not think it is Christian at all to be a racist.  But I would greatly object to the BLM organization.

11 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

But again, I wasn't asking from my perspective. I was asking as a general question - if you know someone who doesn't support BLM but believes that lives of black people should matter, would you be friends with that person. I didn't say that they wouldn't have any info about the movement.

So, my question is why using abbreviations or caps changes the meaning?

BLM = Black Lives Matter = black lives matter

@Sneezyone has been very patient with us trying to figure it the it's-not-an-organization-it's-a-movement thing. Now that we've cleared up that there is no central organization there shouldn't be a question of the different phrases meaning the exact same thing. So you can't say you agree black lives matter but don't support BLM, because that would be a paradox.

[At most, you could say that you don't support BLMGNF,Inc, I guess, but any further abbreviation would be inaccurate and confusing, as it's been in this thread. And I can't vouch for the implications of this stand, just clarifying the options.

Or you can take a similarly controversial, but not as hot button stand, and clarify you don't like the Bureau of Land Management at church events.]

 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

There is no *actual* organization to believe/not believe in. BLM is a movement of people like me who stand for and advocate for racial justice and fairness in policing. I suppose there are people who do not believe in those things but, to your earlier question, no, we could not be close friends.

So I'm honestly curious - how have people donated large amounts of money to BLM if BLM is not an organization?  How has BLM spent that money if it's not an organization?

Edited November 10, 2020 by SKL

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

So I'm honestly curious - how have people donated large amounts of money to BLM if BLM is not an organization?  How has BLM used that money to support political candidates if it's not an organization?

There are many chapters. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

So I'm honestly curious - how have people donated large amounts of money to BLM if BLM is not an organization?  How has BLM used that money to support political candidates if it's not an organization?

It’s not an ‘organization’ in the sense of having firm policy positions and structure. You can’t call up some national office and ask “Who’s in charge here!” You can find the VERY loose and frankly uncontroversial goals of the umbrella movement but you’d have to look specifically at local organizations which may or may not call themselves BLM for specific proposals/policies that they advocate.

[Not_a_Number]

The "I don't approve of BLM" thing is a bit bizarre. It's a bit like saying "I am OK with Christianity, but I don't like churches. Any churches. Big churches, small churches, none of them are fine. Yeah, I know they are all different, and I already said I'm OK with Christianity, which is what they do there, but churches? Nope, no thanks." 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

There are many chapters. 

OK so maybe we have different understanding of what an "organization" is.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

OK so maybe we have different understanding of what an "organization" is.

Sneezy explained this like 10 times. They don't have anyone setting the agenda. They are loosely affiliated. 

Anyway, if you don't approve of BLM, can you tell me why? This thread is all about healing divisions. This movement has some very elementary appeal and is obviously important for some people on here for obvious reasons. Therefore, there must be something about BLM that bothers you if you don't approve. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

OK so maybe we have different understanding of what an "organization" is.

If you can find the policies of this ‘organization’ that you find objectionable, I’d love to see it.

[Terabith]

Perhaps not only can we not agree on what constitute facts but also what constitute definitions of words?

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sneezy explained this like 10 times. They don't have anyone setting the agenda. They are loosely affiliated. 

Anyway, if you don't approve of BLM, can you tell me why? This thread is all about healing divisions. This movement has some very elementary appeal and is obviously important for some people on here for obvious reasons. Therefore, there must be something about BLM that bothers you if you don't approve. 

You need to stop using your "curious questions" to put words in people's mouths.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SKL said:

You need to stop using your "curious questions" to put words in people's mouths.

All right, so you don't disapprove of BLM? I apologize. 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If you can find the policies of this ‘organization’ that you find objectionable, I’d love to see it.

I believe black lives matter, police justice needs improvement, and peaceful protests to that end are appropriate.  I have, however, seen people misuse the words to achieve ends that don't appear to have much to do with the value of black lives.  This is not of course an issue only with BLM.  But it does hurt the underlying intention IMO.

[Not_a_Number]

OK, so far no one has said they disapprove of BLM except @TravelingChris, is that right? So do most of us here approve of the movement? 

I'm just trying to figure out what people think here. If I've misinterpreted anyone's stance, I'm really sorry. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I have, however, seen people misuse the words to achieve ends that don't appear to have much to do with the value of black lives.

What did they use the words for? 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I believe black lives matter, police justice needs improvement, and peaceful protests to that end are appropriate.  I have, however, seen people misuse the words to achieve ends that don't appear to have much to do with the value of black lives.  This is not of course an issue only with BLM.  But it does hurt the underlying intention IMO.

It only hurts the underlying intention if one presumes or chooses to believe that the fringes of any movement represent the whole. It’s also important to recognize that there is a concerted and deliberate effort to infiltrate and undermine the movement that’s been acknowledged by state and local officials in several states. What are these sketchy ends you’ve seen promoted?

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

And yes, I think people should be skeptical of names and slogans.  Very often they do not accurately represent the underlying agenda / activities.  I am sure you all can think of examples if you try.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

And yes, I think people should be skeptical of names and slogans.  Very often they do not accurately represent the underlying agenda / activities.  I am sure you all can think of examples if you try.

I’m sure I could think of some. “Defund the police”, for example, is silly and not at all sufficiently descriptive. It’s proponents typically mean reallocating resources not zeroing out police budgets. It’s also something I generally hear from WASPS too not the people who actually need/want more FAIR/PROPORTIONATE policing in their communities, but I’m specifically wondering what makes BLM something to be skeptical about? 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And what do you do when people can't agree on what facts are? How do you check? 

That's where you need skillz. And it's difficult when they have been "programmed" to think the source that gives them their info is the only one telling the truth. 

Sometimes you can pull the fateful Jenga rod, though, just by asking questions to have them reveal to themselves that they don't actually know what they profess to know. Questions like, "How does that work?" "What are the contributing factors to that?" "What do you think is a better idea?" Etc. 

I did say, "Sometimes," though. Other times, a person just gets angry and the conversation must end. 

[HeartString]

I don’t know where it comes from exactly, but I see people comment all the time on Facebook that “BLM isn’t what it seems”.  When pressed the only answer I’ve ever seen is that they support abortion. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but saying that it is gives large swaths if the population cover for not supporting it. 
 

I think it might be easier if someone did take the lead with BLM and set up an organization with a structure.  I’m sure there are reasons why it doesn’t, but seems like so much energy goes into explaining the whole “not an organization, it’s a movement”.  I feel like Occupy tried this set up and wasn’t as effective as it might have been, and I think BLM might be suffering the same fate.  Conversations like this one make me wonder if whatever the benefits of not having a structure are out weighing the negatives. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

That's where you need skillz. And it's difficult when they have been "programmed" to think the source that gives them their info is the only one telling the truth. 

Sometimes you can pull the fateful Jenga rod, though, just by asking questions to have them reveal to themselves that they don't actually know what they profess to know. Questions like, "How does that work?" "What are the contributing factors to that?" "What do you think is a better idea?" Etc. 

I did say, "Sometimes," though. Other times, a person just gets angry and the conversation must end. 

I mean, I do that. But when it’s not people close to you, they just get mad 😉 

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

The "I don't approve of BLM" thing is a bit bizarre. It's a bit like saying "I am OK with Christianity, but I don't like churches. Any churches. Big churches, small churches, none of them are fine. Yeah, I know they are all different, and I already said I'm OK with Christianity, which is what they do there, but churches? Nope, no thanks." 

yes!!!

 

7 hours ago, SKL said:

I believe black lives matter, police justice needs improvement, and peaceful protests to that end are appropriate.  I have, however, seen people misuse the words to achieve ends that don't appear to have much to do with the value of black lives.  This is not of course an issue only with BLM.  But it does hurt the underlying intention IMO.

Ok, as said above, I'm a Christian, and agree with the basic tenets of Christianity. Like you agree with the basic tenet that Black Lives Matter. But I've seen people misuse the Bible, and their faith, to achieve ends that have nothing to do with the sacrificial death of Christ. That doesn't mean I don't support Christianity, or that it would make any sense really, for me to say I don't support Christianity. 

Which is why I don't get why there is this need for perfection amongst all who claim Black Lives Matter in order for people to support it. I'd say the majority of people that say they can't support the movement due to XYZ have no problem supporting Christianity despite there being Christians who also do XYZ. 

And there are websites for Christianity, and you can donate to various Christian groups but there is no overarching "Christian" organization that is in charge of all the others. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by ktgrok

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Cnew02 said:

I don’t know where it comes from exactly, but I see people comment all the time on Facebook that “BLM isn’t what it seems”.  When pressed the only answer I’ve ever seen is that they support abortion. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but saying that it is gives large swaths if the population cover for not supporting it. 
 

I think it might be easier if someone did take the lead with BLM and set up an organization with a structure.  I’m sure there are reasons why it doesn’t, but seems like so much energy goes into explaining the whole “not an organization, it’s a movement”.  I feel like Occupy tried this set up and wasn’t as effective as it might have been, and I think BLM might be suffering the same fate.  Conversations like this one make me wonder if whatever the benefits of not having a structure are out weighing the negatives. 

The obvious downside of that, leaving aside the abortion issue which has absolutely nothing to do with a movement that is fundamentally about valuing life, is that solutions to disparate policing SHOULD be locally developed/derived. Different communities have different challenges. I’m not sure why the onus should be on members of the movement to disprove a negative like “When did you last beat your wife?”

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone