Outschool and copyright laws

[threewishes]

I recently applied and was accepted to be an Outschool teacher. I’ve been a classroom teacher and now a virtual teacher for over 20 years. I have decided not to teach on Outschool because of unethical and illegal practices that are not only condoned but seem to be encouraged. Because Outschool is for profit, there are a number of classes that were approved on Outschool that cannot be legal according to copyright laws. For example, there are numerous Disney themed classes and Harry Potter classes. Within the last couple of weeks, Universal sent a cease and desist letter to a Outschool. They are slowly deleting those classes because they legally have to, but many other classes with copyright infringements remain. I am really sad that this is happening and cannot support this. I know that many homeschoolers use Outschool, and I just wanted to let you know what is happening. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by threewishes

[Tanaqui]

Just because the big guy sends a cease and desist letter and the little guy decides not to fight it, that does not ipso facto mean that the little guy was in violation of copyright laws. Big names often send cease and desist letters to people who are well in compliance under fair use.

[threewishes]

These teachers are definitely not in compliance under fair use. Many Outschool teachers assume they can use the same materials as classroom teachers, but they can’t. Outschool teachers are for profit and cannot use most books, videos, music, etc. without consent. 

[Guest]

Another concern is digital delivery of materials. A lot of materials that are licensed to be used for one teacher's classroom cannot be posted online. I use a lot of studio licensed materials and most do not include those rights, so for my distance students, I have gone back to mostly using print materials  that are readily available and standardizing on a few books, plus digital materials from publishers that do allow them to be e-mailed, or have inexpensive single user licenses that parents can purchase.  

 

[Wheres Toto]

I've actually wondered about this with Outschool.  When I had to shut down for the summer, I was considering moving some classes to Outschool if I wasn't able to open up again.   I know I'd have to go through all my materials and make sure all the pictures are allowed to be used in that situation, all citations are correct, etc. but I really was wondering about how some of the classes were able to use various materials and how certain classes were able to be offered at all. 

[mommyoffive]

I was thinking of teaching on outschool   and then did some research on this topic.   It seems so difficult if you are going to follow the rules.

[Bootsie]

8 hours ago, threewishes said:

These teachers are definitely not in compliance under fair use. Many Outschool teachers assume they can use the same materials as classroom teachers, but they can’t. Outschool teachers are for profit and cannot use most books, videos, music, etc. without consent. 

Even classroom teachers cannot necessarily use videos and other items without consent.  When DD was watching Little Mermaid in science and Beauty and Beast in math class in middle school it was a violation of copyright laws because it was entertainment and not educational and the school district did not have a license.  

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, dmmetler said:

Another concern is digital delivery of materials. A lot of materials that are licensed to be used for one teacher's classroom cannot be posted online. I use a lot of studio licensed materials and most do not include those rights, so for my distance students, I have gone back to mostly using print materials  that are readily available and standardizing on a few books, plus digital materials from publishers that do allow them to be e-mailed, or have inexpensive single user licenses that parents can purchase.  

 

And if you are doing a class via ZOOM that is recorded, all of a sudden materials that you would have had on the overhead screen to discuss in an in-person class you do not have the copyright permission to record.  

[threewishes]

I know not everyone will agree with me, but it an ethical concern to me. I am all for using entertaining methods for teaching classes if you are creating your own materials or getting permission from publishers, musicians, videographers, etc. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

And if you are doing a class via ZOOM that is recorded, all of a sudden materials that you would have had on the overhead screen to discuss in an in-person class you do not have the copyright permission to record.  

It's definitely tough. I've been considering offering a "fundamentals of music teaching" class for teens (since almost all of my teen students seem to end up with a neighbor or family friend asking them to teach their child), but doing so and being legal and ethical is difficult. Even materials that are licensed for me to use with student online and can be put in an LMS are not licensed to be shared with teachers to be used with THEIR students. 

[rebcoola]

Yeah I've wondered we do take some classes mostly cake decorating classes.  We haven't done anything themed but I've seen them and wondered how they could be doing that.

[Bootsie]

7 hours ago, threewishes said:

I know not everyone will agree with me, but it an ethical concern to me. I am all for using entertaining methods for teaching classes if you are creating your own materials or getting permission from publishers, musicians, videographers, etc. 

I am not familiar with Outschool, so I cannot comment on their particular usage of materials, but I agree that copyright issues should be taken seriously.  In educational situations I think it goes even beyond personally being fair and ethical.  In an educational setting it is role modelling for students.   I don't see how a teacher can hold a student accountable for plagirism and other types of academic dishonesty when that teacher is violating copyright laws.  

[Farrar]

I know someone who teaches on Outschool and she has multiple times had parents ask for a pdf of the entire book she's teaching. And she's like, um, no.

Most of the classes I've seen don't violate anything. They can have students watch a movie on their own legally or read a book. They can discuss anything they want. Some companies clearly don't care. Like, there are a ton of Lego classes on Outschool and I seriously doubt Lego cares any more than they care about all the Lego afterschool enrichment companies. 

It's these new classes that are a huge problem... But really, in the end, it's a tiny number. Outschool is mostly a hot mess.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I don't see how a teacher can hold a student accountable for plagiarism and other types of academic dishonesty when that teacher is violating copyright laws.

 Whatever you think about the ethics of our current copyright laws (and I'll only say that I think it's really hypocritical for Disney to cry poor over the very idea of giving up control over franchises that are already a lot older than Pinocchio was when they adapted that), the act of plagiarism is very different from showing an in-class movie without paying the fee. Unless the teacher is claiming they personally produced the movie, that is.

[Bootsie]

1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

 Whatever you think about the ethics of our current copyright laws (and I'll only say that I think it's really hypocritical for Disney to cry poor over the very idea of giving up control over franchises that are already a lot older than Pinocchio was when they adapted that), the act of plagiarism is very different from showing an in-class movie without paying the fee. Unless the teacher is claiming they personally produced the movie, that is.

I don't see that it is that different.  It is using something that doesn't belong to you without permission.   

[Farrar]

49 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I don't see that it is that different.  It is using something that doesn't belong to you without permission.   

Even the law makes a huge distinction here though between infringement that has no monetary gains (and if there's anything with less monetary gains than a student plagiarizing for an ungraded cheap Outschool enrichment course, I don't know what is) and something that is - like showing a movie or using images to sell a class. You may put these in the same moral category for yourself, but they're obviously very different legally. No author would have real standing to go after a 9th grader who copied their work for English class.

[Sneezyone]

Hmph. DS has a bi-weekly, semester-long class with an IEW instructor who, I presume, is licensed/approved to use their name in her advertising. The kids don’t have a textbook. They buy, rent or borrow their novels and the KWO passages are chosen from their readings. He has a trombone teacher and I bought the book for that too. In our area there really are no B&M teachers right now and they’re moving to recordable zoom classes due to some abusive behaviors (from students/parents). That format change would preclude use of a lot of content that would otherwise be subject to fair use. Kinda sad, really.

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Hmph. DS has a bi-weekly, semester-long class with an IEW instructor who, I presume, is licensed/approved to use their name in her advertising. The kids don’t have a textbook. They buy, rent or borrow their novels and the KWO passages are chosen from their readings. He has a trombone teacher and I bought the book for that too. In our area there really are no B&M teachers right now and they’re moving to recordable zoom classes due to some abusive behaviors (from students/parents). That format change would preclude use of a lot of content that would otherwise be subject to fair use. Kinda sad, really.

But that doesn't violate anything. Each person in the Zoom call and the class has paid for the materials and they're discussing them together. The teacher has (we'll assume) paid for the IEW materials and any license to use them with students. A lot of materials geared toward teachers are for the teacher to use with any students they have who have accompanying student materials. Or sometimes they cover that as well. If the teacher materials cover a method, that method can be used with any students.

I think some people in this thread are being way too harsh on Outschool overall. I'm not a huge fan of them for a ton of reasons, but the majority of classes on Outschool are fine from a copyright perspective. It doesn't matter if a teacher is charging for a class or in a physical classroom. You can still discuss a book or use a quote from it. Good grief, y'all. There are a small number of classes on Outschool using copyrighted materials in ways that are not okay - especially from Disney and Harry Potter. Most of those could easily just be changed to comply because it's just the class cover image that is a problem. Like, a Harry Potter themed book club might just need to change the class image and not much more. It's not okay to use the movie image to sell the course. But it is okay to assign students to read the book or watch the movie and then come and discuss it or cook food from it or whatever. That's FINE. But some of them probably need to be taken down - like the Disneyworld scavenger hunts and mysteries that use a ton of Disney materials. The second I saw that stuff, I was like, no. That's simply not going to last. But we're talking about a teeny portion of classes on a massive platform that has hundreds of classes going a day.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Farrar

[Farrar]

Like, I'm just trying to get clear here. Does anyone actually think that a teacher can't use a generalized image of a book that they took themselves or paid for to use as the cover image, then teach a class where they read a recent novel on Zoom and discuss it? Because discussing a book is not a violation of copyright. Discussing a movie is not a violation of copyright. Writing fanfiction and creating fanart (two more things you see a lot on Outschool) are not violation either - this has now been pretty well established. 

Additionally, teaching from a textbook or curricula if it's intended for the teacher is not a violation. It doesn't matter what the type of school is or how the teacher is paid. If there are student materials, it is illegal for the teacher to copy and distribute those. If it's a method, then it's not illegal to use. And some books (especially enrichment books, or, say, the Math Mammoth materials) give the teacher permission to use with all students. Again, the fact that the platform charges as a business does not change anything legally about who is a teacher and who is a student in those cases.

Like, here's an example of an Outschool class that probably needs to go:
https://outschool.com/classes/hollywood-studios-quest-a-disney-escape-room-LBtk7SEz?sectionUid=1b803023-540c-4028-a300-3f5b2ffa7c1a#usOxapjoyH

Here's an example of an Outschool class that is probably fine, but has a cover image that likely needs to be changed:
https://outschool.com/classes/marvel-movies-club-3iAPo0zy?sectionUid=add3b0c4-8b80-42d4-b7d4-546e46fdd139#usOxapjoyH

[LMD]

11 hours ago, dmmetler said:

It's definitely tough. I've been considering offering a "fundamentals of music teaching" class for teens (since almost all of my teen students seem to end up with a neighbor or family friend asking them to teach their child), but doing so and being legal and ethical is difficult. Even materials that are licensed for me to use with student online and can be put in an LMS are not licensed to be shared with teachers to be used with THEIR students. 

Gosh, I would LOVE a class like this for my teen. 

Sorry, off topic.

[Bootsie]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Like, I'm just trying to get clear here. Does anyone actually think that a teacher can't use a generalized image of a book that they took themselves or paid for to use as the cover image, then teach a class where they read a recent novel on Zoom and discuss it? Because discussing a book is not a violation of copyright. Discussing a movie is not a violation of copyright. Writing fanfiction and creating fanart (two more things you see a lot on Outschool) are not violation either - this has now been pretty well established. 

Additionally, teaching from a textbook or curricula if it's intended for the teacher is not a violation. It doesn't matter what the type of school is or how the teacher is paid. If there are student materials, it is illegal for the teacher to copy and distribute those. If it's a method, then it's not illegal to use. And some books (especially enrichment books, or, say, the Math Mammoth materials) give the teacher permission to use with all students. Again, the fact that the platform charges as a business does not change anything legally about who is a teacher and who is a student in those cases.

Like, here's an example of an Outschool class that probably needs to go:
https://outschool.com/classes/hollywood-studios-quest-a-disney-escape-room-LBtk7SEz?sectionUid=1b803023-540c-4028-a300-3f5b2ffa7c1a#usOxapjoyH

Here's an example of an Outschool class that is probably fine, but has a cover image that likely needs to be changed:
https://outschool.com/classes/marvel-movies-club-3iAPo0zy?sectionUid=add3b0c4-8b80-42d4-b7d4-546e46fdd139#usOxapjoyH

A discussion of a book over ZOOM would not be a problem.  But the recording of a ZOOM session where certain materials are used could be a problem.  I teach a course in which we I use materials from Harvard Business School.  Some of the materials have charts with a lot of numbers in them.  If I am in a classroom and project those on an overhead it is OK.  If I am in a ZOOM class and have that same item as a screen share and the class is recorded, then there can be an issue because that item can now be shared electronically to others.  

There are also issues about who is a teacher and who is a student.  We can use materials in a university course under fair-use educational use.  But, I cannot use those same materials if I am teaching an executive education or a continuing education class offered through the university.  I am still a "teacher" and the people in the room could still be considered "students."  There is a difference under fair-use if it is a not-for-profit educational venture or a for-profit educational outfit. 

 

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

A discussion of a book over ZOOM would not be a problem.  But the recording of a ZOOM session where certain materials are used could be a problem.  I teach a course in which we I use materials from Harvard Business School.  Some of the materials have charts with a lot of numbers in them.  If I am in a classroom and project those on an overhead it is OK.  If I am in a ZOOM class and have that same item as a screen share and the class is recorded, then there can be an issue because that item can now be shared electronically to others.  

There are also issues about who is a teacher and who is a student.  We can use materials in a university course under fair-use educational use.  But, I cannot use those same materials if I am teaching an executive education or a continuing education class offered through the university.  I am still a "teacher" and the people in the room could still be considered "students."  There is a difference under fair-use if it is a not-for-profit educational venture or a for-profit educational outfit. 

 

The vast majority of Outschool classes are not recording at all. Or keeping the recordings if they are. A few are recording and then you can watch for the next week to keep up. The FLEX classes - yes, I agree with you. That's where you potentially get into issues. I understand what you're saying about the difference between fair use - but I disagree about a continuing education class through a nonprofit entity like a university. As long as the provider is a nonprofit, then the course is a nonprofit. Otherwise, every single university and private school in the country wouldn't be able to follow those guidelines. 

Regardless, this is all pretty moot. Outschool classes are mostly teacher created materials. Or, for the handful of serious classes, they require that the student buy the textbook. So now everyone has the book. There's no copyright issues there to assign and discuss the questions. Or for the teacher to personally use the answers in marking. Or it's something like IEW, which licenses instructors to use their name and methods in classes.

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The vast majority of Outschool classes are not recording at all. Or keeping the recordings if they are. A few are recording and then you can watch for the next week to keep up. The FLEX classes - yes, I agree with you. That's where you potentially get into issues. I understand what you're saying about the difference between fair use - but I disagree about a continuing education class through a nonprofit entity like a university. As long as the provider is a nonprofit, then the course is a nonprofit. Otherwise, every single university and private school in the country wouldn't be able to follow those guidelines. 

Regardless, this is all pretty moot. Outschool classes are mostly teacher created materials. Or, for the handful of serious classes, they require that the student buy the textbook. So now everyone has the book. There's no copyright issues there to assign and discuss the questions. Or for the teacher to personally use the answers in marking. Or it's something like IEW, which licenses instructors to use their name and methods in classes.

A university that is a not-for-profit can have some of its activities not fall under its educational not-for-profit mission; this will result in those activities being considered Unrelated Business Income for the university.  So, if the university has a continuing education class designed for the managers of XYZ Co. to come learn about leadership skills, advanced accounting, or some other topic, that would fall under Unrelated Business Income.  So, just because the provider is a non-profit the course is not necessarily non-profit.  

 

[Wheres Toto]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

I think some people in this thread are being way too harsh on Outschool overall. I'm not a huge fan of them for a ton of reasons, but the majority of classes on Outschool are fine from a copyright perspective. 

Can you share some of the issues you know about?   PM is fine if you'd prefer.  Thank you.

[mommyoffive]

9 hours ago, Farrar said:

Like, I'm just trying to get clear here. Does anyone actually think that a teacher can't use a generalized image of a book that they took themselves or paid for to use as the cover image, then teach a class where they read a recent novel on Zoom and discuss it? Because discussing a book is not a violation of copyright. Discussing a movie is not a violation of copyright. Writing fanfiction and creating fanart (two more things you see a lot on Outschool) are not violation either - this has now been pretty well established. 

Additionally, teaching from a textbook or curricula if it's intended for the teacher is not a violation. It doesn't matter what the type of school is or how the teacher is paid. If there are student materials, it is illegal for the teacher to copy and distribute those. If it's a method, then it's not illegal to use. And some books (especially enrichment books, or, say, the Math Mammoth materials) give the teacher permission to use with all students. Again, the fact that the platform charges as a business does not change anything legally about who is a teacher and who is a student in those cases.

Like, here's an example of an Outschool class that probably needs to go:
https://outschool.com/classes/hollywood-studios-quest-a-disney-escape-room-LBtk7SEz?sectionUid=1b803023-540c-4028-a300-3f5b2ffa7c1a#usOxapjoyH

Here's an example of an Outschool class that is probably fine, but has a cover image that likely needs to be changed:
https://outschool.com/classes/marvel-movies-club-3iAPo0zy?sectionUid=add3b0c4-8b80-42d4-b7d4-546e46fdd139#usOxapjoyH

Does the reading of the book have to happen on the students time?  Meaning you can't read the book in the online class.  

[mom31257]

This has caused me to wonder if I am violating any laws. I am teaching math classes online using Zoom. I require the students to purchase specific textbooks, and I teach the material from the text. I assign homework, quizzes, and tests (two classes the quizzes and tests come from a teacher CD I purchased). 

In the past, I have taught these same classes at my kitchen table. With Covid, I decided to move to an online format. Some of my students are new because they live too far away to come to my house twice a week. 

What do you all think? I record the lessons, but I don't make them available for public viewing (only for my current students). 

 

[threewishes]

11 hours ago, Farrar said:

The vast majority of Outschool classes are not recording at all. Or keeping the recordings if they are. A few are recording and then you can watch for the next week to keep up. The FLEX classes - yes, I agree with you. That's where you potentially get into issues. I understand what you're saying about the difference between fair use - but I disagree about a continuing education class through a nonprofit entity like a university. As long as the provider is a nonprofit, then the course is a nonprofit. Otherwise, every single university and private school in the country wouldn't be able to follow those guidelines. 

Regardless, this is all pretty moot. Outschool classes are mostly teacher created materials. Or, for the handful of serious classes, they require that the student buy the textbook. So now everyone has the book. There's no copyright issues there to assign and discuss the questions. Or for the teacher to personally use the answers in marking. Or it's something like IEW, which licenses instructors to use their name and methods in classes.

Actually, this isn't true. Since I have been approved as an Outschool teacher, all the Zoom meetings are mandated to be recorded. Also, it is not a small number breaking copyright laws. Just look up classes using Paw Patrol, Disney characters, Hamilton materials, and books not in the public domain. AS a for profit teacher on Outschool, it is NOT fair use to read a book in a class or discuss unless the student are required to buy the book. There are quite a few classes for little especially that are openly violating copyright laws. That is a huge ethical concern to me. 

[Bootsie]

22 minutes ago, mom31257 said:

This has caused me to wonder if I am violating any laws. I am teaching math classes online using Zoom. I require the students to purchase specific textbooks, and I teach the material from the text. I assign homework, quizzes, and tests (two classes the quizzes and tests come from a teacher CD I purchased). 

In the past, I have taught these same classes at my kitchen table. With Covid, I decided to move to an online format. Some of my students are new because they live too far away to come to my house twice a week. 

What do you all think? I record the lessons, but I don't make them available for public viewing (only for my current students). 

 

From what you describe, I think this is OK; it doesn't sound as if you are distributing copies of copyrighted material.

I am not at all familiar with Outschool, but gathering from what other posters have written in this thread, perhaps one of their problems is that they are using images.  The copyright law treats art work differently than text--so even thought I could use a paragraph except out of a 500-page book and be within fair-use, I cannot use a graphic from that book that is of equal size and characters.  This is one reason why textbooks in some fields are so expensive, the publisher is having to pay for the rights to use tables and graphics from other sources.  

Are you just videoing yourself, or can the students' images and voices be detected in the video?  We have been going through legality issues regarding this at my university.  When we went online we were told we had to record so that students who were out ill and access--then the attorneys got involved; we have been told tape, don't tape, get permission....  This has more to do with state recording/privacy laws than with copyright issues, from what I understand.  Even though taping is allowable in my state, once we have a student sitting in quarantine in another state in the class, we have issues regarding whether it is legal in that state, also. 

[mom31257]

6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

From what you describe, I think this is OK; it doesn't sound as if you are distributing copies of copyrighted material.

I am not at all familiar with Outschool, but gathering from what other posters have written in this thread, perhaps one of their problems is that they are using images.  The copyright law treats art work differently than text--so even thought I could use a paragraph except out of a 500-page book and be within fair-use, I cannot use a graphic from that book that is of equal size and characters.  This is one reason why textbooks in some fields are so expensive, the publisher is having to pay for the rights to use tables and graphics from other sources.  

Are you just videoing yourself, or can the students' images and voices be detected in the video?  We have been going through legality issues regarding this at my university.  When we went online we were told we had to record so that students who were out ill and access--then the attorneys got involved; we have been told tape, don't tape, get permission....  This has more to do with state recording/privacy laws than with copyright issues, from what I understand.  Even though taping is allowable in my state, once we have a student sitting in quarantine in another state in the class, we have issues regarding whether it is legal in that state, also. 

I do give tests and quizzes to the students from the CD, but that's its purpose. 

I am videoing the kids as well as me. They are all friends' kids in our local homeschool group. I am putting the videos on Youtube, but with unlisted links. They parents were all okay with that since I'm not sharing them outside our group. 

 

 

[regentrude]

50 minutes ago, mom31257 said:

This has caused me to wonder if I am violating any laws. I am teaching math classes online using Zoom. I require the students to purchase specific textbooks, and I teach the material from the text. I assign homework, quizzes, and tests (two classes the quizzes and tests come from a teacher CD I purchased). 

In the past, I have taught these same classes at my kitchen table. With Covid, I decided to move to an online format. Some of my students are new because they live too far away to come to my house twice a week. 

What do you all think? I record the lessons, but I don't make them available for public viewing (only for my current students).

If you are requiring students to purchase the textbook, you can legally use the companion teacher materials provided by the publisher, and I am pretty sure you can record your classes and make them available to registered students only. That's no different than a college instructor using lecture slides from the publisher and posting the material on the password protected LMS.

I am putting my lectures on my own website instead, which means I cannot use any images from the text, but have to create my own artwork.

[Matryoshka]

22 minutes ago, threewishes said:

AS a for profit teacher on Outschool, it is NOT fair use to read a book in a class or discuss unless the student are required to buy the book. There are quite a few classes for little especially that are openly violating copyright laws. That is a huge ethical concern to me. 

Okay, I'll bite. How in heck do you run a literature discussion group where the students don't have to have their own copy of the book to read???  You might be able to read small excerpts aloud in class, but you can't possibly have all the reading in a lit class be done off a screen in class. There simply isn't enough time.  

Edited September 22, 2020 by Matryoshka

[threewishes]

7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Okay, I'll bite. How in heck do you run a literature discussion group where the students don't have to have their own copy of the book to read???  You might be able to read small excerpts aloud in class, but you can't possibly have all the reading in a lit class be done off a screen in class. There simply isn't enough time.  

I am talking about classes on Outschool that are read aloud classes or where the teacher is using a book or book characters in a hands on class such as crafting or art. Images are frequently used, and that is a definite copyright issue. For Fair Use, even commercial teachers can use excepts from a  book or movie ( I believe it is no more than 25% of the material), but images and songs are further copyright protected. 

[threewishes]

Overall, I think many Outschool teachers are there for educational purposes and not just to make money. This summer, an influx of teachers from one specific ESL site came in, and they don't seem to be concerned about copyright laws, or they erroneously think that for profit teachers have the same rights as a classroom teacher. When I first checked into applying to Outschool, and my daughter took some classes there, it wasn't like this. There is a glut of teachers now, and many academic instructors are being overshadowed by this new lot of classes, many of which are not following copyright laws. 

[Bootsie]

12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

If you are requiring students to purchase the textbook, you can legally use the companion teacher materials provided by the publisher, and I am pretty sure you can record your classes and make them available to registered students only. That's no different than a college instructor using lecture slides from the publisher and posting the material on the password protected LMS.

I am putting my lectures on my own website instead, which means I cannot use any images from the text, but have to create my own artwork.

This is not necessarily the case if you are "teaching" but are not associated with a non-profit educational institution.  I use a book in my class at the university and use the ancillary materials provided by the publisher.  The same book is used in some professional training classes.  I cannot as an instructor of those professional training classes use the PowerPoints that are provided by the publisher without permission from the publisher although I am "teaching" and my "students" are purchasing the book.   

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

This is not necessarily the case if you are "teaching" but are not associated with a non-profit educational institution.  I use a book in my class at the university and use the ancillary materials provided by the publisher.  The same book is used in some professional training classes.  I cannot as an instructor of those professional training classes use the PowerPoints that are provided by the publisher without permission from the publisher although I am "teaching" and my "students" are purchasing the book.   

Interesting. So would that be in the licensing agreement when you download the instructor materials?

 

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Interesting. So would that be in the licensing agreement when you download the instructor materials?

 

There is probably something in the licensing agreement that says it is for non-commercial use.  Once I am a business (either corporation or an individual) who is selling my teaching services, I have crossed into commercial use.  

[Tanaqui]

15 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I don't see that it is that different.  It is using something that doesn't belong to you without permission.   

 

There's a matter of academic dishonesty.

And you know what? I *don't* think that 75 year old works should belong to anybody but the public. I don't think 50 year old works should either. Throughout human history, the norm has been that creators lost control over their works pretty darn quickly, if not immediately. I think our current copyright laws allow corporations to keep exclusive use of something that rightfully belongs to the public. Every day that Batman is not in the public domain is a day in which Marvel (now owned by Disney) is stealing from the public.

Sane copyright laws are one thing, but "life of the author plus 70 years" is not sane. It's not reasonable. I'd go so far as to say that it is theft.

[Farrar]

I'd be curious if a K12 centered publisher like Pearson or Scholastic has ever actually gone after a small or even a chain tutoring business for using their materials in the way they were intended just by a tutoring and outside class business instead of by a school. My guess is not. And as I pointed out, some of the curriculum providers in question here, like IEW, very explicitly expect their materials to be used in a tutorial business and include it as part of their licensing agreements. Because of the nature of homeschooling, the homeschool materials seem to expect that tutorials will be a part of the deal.

[Matryoshka]

37 minutes ago, threewishes said:

I am talking about classes on Outschool that are read aloud classes or where the teacher is using a book or book characters in a hands on class such as crafting or art. Images are frequently used, and that is a definite copyright issue. For Fair Use, even commercial teachers can use excepts from a  book or movie ( I believe it is no more than 25% of the material), but images and songs are further copyright protected. 

Ah. When you said discussing a books, I was thinking older kids. 

[Bootsie]

6 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I'd be curious if a K12 centered publisher like Pearson or Scholastic has ever actually gone after a small or even a chain tutoring business for using their materials in the way they were intended just by a tutoring and outside class business instead of by a school. My guess is not. And as I pointed out, some of the curriculum providers in question here, like IEW, very explicitly expect their materials to be used in a tutorial business and include it as part of their licensing agreements. Because of the nature of homeschooling, the homeschool materials seem to expect that tutorials will be a part of the deal.

I do know of some instances of companies issuing cease and desist letters to small businesses and providers.  The materials were intended, for example, to teach math in a not-for-profit educational setting; they are not being used in the way they were intended if they are used by a another provider.  And, it isn't just a situation of whether you will be caught; it is a situation of whether it is ethical or not.  

Of course, an owner of the copyright may state the materials can be used in other ways and grant permission for broader use.  It is find for a curriculum provider to choose to do so.  But, just because some choose to do so does not mean that I should expect to use the materials from companies that do not grant permission. 

[Bootsie]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

There's a matter of academic dishonesty.

And you know what? I *don't* think that 75 year old works should belong to anybody but the public. I don't think 50 year old works should either. Throughout human history, the norm has been that creators lost control over their works pretty darn quickly, if not immediately. I think our current copyright laws allow corporations to keep exclusive use of something that rightfully belongs to the public. Every day that Batman is not in the public domain is a day in which Marvel (now owned by Disney) is stealing from the public.

Sane copyright laws are one thing, but "life of the author plus 70 years" is not sane. It's not reasonable. I'd go so far as to say that it is theft.

I am curious as to what you are basing this statement on.  While many of our copyright laws are relatively new in relation to human history, the ability to typeset, photocopy, reproduce a picture, videotape, digitize, and publish something that can reach millions of people in seconds (much of what modern copyright laws are about) are relatively new also.  

[mommyoffive]

Off the research that I have done if you had a class that had a the teacher reading a story , and then doing activities based off the book would be ok because it is transformative and you are adding to it.    But if you just read the book it wouldn't be ok.  Thoughts?

[Bootsie]

33 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Off the research that I have done if you had a class that had a the teacher reading a story , and then doing activities based off the book would be ok because it is transformative and you are adding to it.    But if you just read the book it wouldn't be ok.  Thoughts?

II don't think it is clear whether or not that is allowed  Here is one person's opinion on read-alouds https://programminglibrarian.org/articles/online-story-time-coronavirus-it’s-fair-use-folks#:~:text=A rights holder could deny you to permission,outweighs the economic interest of the rights holder..  She brings up that once things become livestreamed and digitized that a different standard may apply.  It may also be different if it is a library who is fulfilling part of its non-profit purpose versus a for-profit endeavor.  I don't think doing activities after the book is read would be considered transformative (in the same way parody is considered transformative).  Schools (even not-for-profit) cannot perform plays that are under copyright without permission--usually paying royalties.   

[Farrar]

It's definitely tricky when you want to read a picture book. I'm also not clear if that's okay at all. I would guess not because you're broadcasting it. But there are lots of for profit daycares out there and I don't think anyone has ever suggested that they can't read aloud books. The problem is that now it's online, so it's like broadcasting.

Dh ran into this with a virtual drama read group he ran at the start of the pandemic. He decided he wouldn't let non-public domain plays be read. Obviously, if you did a group table read of a play in person, then that wouldn't be illegal. But it's less obvious whether or not doing it online, even if everyone has purchased the script and it's just a group, no charges, if that's legal or not. There are some things that are clearly fine in person that are less clear online.

I maintain that if you buy the vast majority of curricula, as long as students have the physical per pupil materials as well, it's fine to use those. But that's so few Outschool courses. The biggest issue there isn't curricula. It's use of tons of images from Disney.

[mommyoffive]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

It's definitely tricky when you want to read a picture book. I'm also not clear if that's okay at all. I would guess not because you're broadcasting it. But there are lots of for profit daycares out there and I don't think anyone has ever suggested that they can't read aloud books. The problem is that now it's online, so it's like broadcasting.

Dh ran into this with a virtual drama read group he ran at the start of the pandemic. He decided he wouldn't let non-public domain plays be read. Obviously, if you did a group table read of a play in person, then that wouldn't be illegal. But it's less obvious whether or not doing it online, even if everyone has purchased the script and it's just a group, no charges, if that's legal or not. There are some things that are clearly fine in person that are less clear online.

I maintain that if you buy the vast majority of curricula, as long as students have the physical per pupil materials as well, it's fine to use those. But that's so few Outschool courses. The biggest issue there isn't curricula. It's use of tons of images from Disney.

Yep, it is so confusing.   I heard that Warner Brothers (?) had a lot of the Harry Potter classes taken down by contacting Outschool. 

[Guest]

One of my friends is a playwright, and he has adapted several of his scripts (he mostly writes plays that meet the requirements for state level competitions in states that include theater in ISL) to be done via zoom, and the biggest issue wasn't rewriting the scripts, but getting his publisher to OK them for broadcast so that the kids could actually do a performance for people outside the class. This included his OWN drama classes and clubs at the school he teaches at, let alone a school that just bought the rights to do a high school performance of said play. It took a new contract that allowed (and limited) performance rights to allow live streaming to get it to work. And this is a publisher that mostly works with schools and children's/youth theater classes/companies, so if anything, they tend to be fairly flexible on performance rights. 

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

II don't think it is clear whether or not that is allowed  Here is one person's opinion on read-alouds https://programminglibrarian.org/articles/online-story-time-coronavirus-it’s-fair-use-folks#:~:text=A rights holder could deny you to permission,outweighs the economic interest of the rights holder..  She brings up that once things become livestreamed and digitized that a different standard may apply.  It may also be different if it is a library who is fulfilling part of its non-profit purpose versus a for-profit endeavor.  I don't think doing activities after the book is read would be considered transformative (in the same way parody is considered transformative).  Schools (even not-for-profit) cannot perform plays that are under copyright without permission--usually paying royalties.   

 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

Yep, it is so confusing.   I heard that Warner Brothers (?) had a lot of the Harry Potter classes taken down by contacting Outschool. 

I think a number of them were showing clips from the movies and heavily using images from the films. There are still a lot of HP classes on Outschool - but you'll note that they've changed and none of them have actual HP movie images. They just have generalized "wizard" artwork. My guess is that the majority of classes got reapproved or similar ones got approved that just don't use the art.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

One of my friends is a playwright, and he has adapted several of his scripts (he mostly writes plays that meet the requirements for state level competitions in states that include theater in ISL) to be done via zoom, and the biggest issue wasn't rewriting the scripts, but getting his publisher to OK them for broadcast so that the kids could actually do a performance for people outside the class. This included his OWN drama classes and clubs at the school he teaches at, let alone a school that just bought the rights to do a high school performance of said play. It took a new contract that allowed (and limited) performance rights to allow live streaming to get it to work. And this is a publisher that mostly works with schools and children's/youth theater classes/companies, so if anything, they tend to be fairly flexible on performance rights. 

 

A lot of people do not realize that the author is not necessarily the owner of the copyright.  I have people who have been upset with me for not giving them permission to use material from a book I wrote--I have tried to explain that I do not own the copyright, the publisher does, and it is the publisher that must provide the permission.  Also, I had permission to include a graphic in the book, but if the publisher provides rights to someone to reprint the chapter, my publisher cannot grant permission for that graphic to be included.  The original permission for the graphic only extended to it being published in my particular book.  

[katilac]

I wouldn't worry about other teachers violating copyright - other people are worrying about that for you, and being paid quite a lot of money for doing so. 

If anyone wants to teach on Outschool, all they need to worry about is their own classes being in compliance. 

[melmichigan]

On 9/21/2020 at 9:26 PM, Farrar said:

I know someone who teaches on Outschool and she has multiple times had parents ask for a pdf of the entire book she's teaching. And she's like, um, no.

 

There are a number of them now that will list this under materials, a pdf to follow after enrollment.