Monuments and statues - discuss

[LucyStoner]

17 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

See, this could be a terms issue. The three actual legit racists in my history were obvious.  Popular prejudice and bias and bigotry are also things I’ve seen.  But I don’t conflate the two, plenty of people have biases about groups of people but not racism, there were pretty clear differences in what I was seeing.

I will also say I go out of my way to see the absolute best in people and not try to read into their intentions or hearts based on their actions.  I abhor mind reading when it is done to me, and I work intentionally to avoid doing it to others as much as possible.  I think if something is borderline it is best to assume social conditioning or ignorance than racism, given that the latter implies and characteriological attitude of the heart. Prejudice is just such a lesser degree of bias and judgment, but much more common.  When I see someone arguing to retain a statue or stating ‘blue lives matter’ I see nothing inherently racist in those words or actions. There may be wrong thinking or a focus that is insensitive to the cultural context, but that isn’t the same thing.

The racists I knew were just blatant about it.  Like skinhead tattoo rally burn crap levels, but not that alignment.... there was no mistaking those hateful, prideful words and actions as anything but, even with the most charitable spin.  They’d tell you exactly where they stood if asked 😞

What I hope you can do, is on self reflection, come to see that it's highly unlikely that you only have been around three racist people.  Unless you don't go anywhere or see anyone, understand that people who can be perfectly lovely to you and your kids will not do the same for my niece or nephew.  
 

Two of my early childhood experiences contained blatant racism that I wouldn't have seen if I were a white person without a close familial relationship to a black person.  In the first instance, we were at a flea market selling basically everything we owned to fund our move from Denver to Seattle.  I was 4.  My older brother was 10.  He'd seen a stall with Michael Jackson shirts.  He talked my mom into giving him some money to get some.  My mom said he could go, but he had to take me with him.  What I remember the most was being so excited to get to go with my brother.  When we got to the table, the vendor was very rude to my brother and demanded to see his money before letting him touch any of the shirts.  I have never in my life been asked to produce funds as proof of ability to pay in order to shop.  That was just something that happened to...my one black brother.  Another time, which I recall in vivid detail was that when I was about 7, my parents moved us from Seattle to the WA Peninsula.  The neighbors were thrilled and invited us to a BBQ when all they saw was me and my parents.  Then my brothers came running up (they had gone to explore the rural post office).  The neighbors saw my older brother and we were all no longer welcome.  They did not even try to make up a reason, we were suddenly very unwanted.  Subsequent to this, we were targeted for what you would agree was overt racism and harassment.  I promise you that our neighbors were "perfectly lovely people" with nice friendships at work and church and many people in fact defended them as exactly that.  Had we been an all white person family, would we have known it was racist people inviting us to that BBQ?  Prolly not.  We would have gone.  They might have been our new besties.  My mother was a fierce defender of equality and I think would have been so even if her first child wasn't black, but I don't think any of us would have had the same cause to see what was going on around us in that regard.  

Edited June 24, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Sneezyone]

Just now, katilac said:

What? No! Robert E Lee was a slave owner, and a cruel one who authorized beatings with whips and separated families by selling family members. 

 

The B.S. perpetuated as fact by the DAR is insidious. All those wonderful white women trying to preserve, protect and defend southern heritage.

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

On these boards over the years, I have had people say things like this to me and also, when confronted with very clear and obvious examples of racism say things like "how do you know it was racism"?  When the answer really is quite as simple as "for the same reason I know the sky is blue."

 

and I'm sure you'd tell me I was racist because I was watching a black guy in the small, high end home good store where I was working.   to me, the way he moved was fascinating. he reminded me of a cat. graceful, sleek, smooth, and silent.  I'd never never seen anything like it before, and only once since (a white high  school kid running cross country who made it look downright *easy*.)  I think he might have been a seahawk.  I finally understood dh and his "he's just pretty to watch run" about various football players over the years.

 I liken it to hearing my niece comment on her orchestra director wanting to know when she was going to get a better instrument, and wondering "how do you tell?"  I've since had two  times when I listened to someone play and thought "you need a better instrument".  there's just "something" different.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

and I'm sure you'd tell me I was racist because I was watching a black guy in the small, high end home good store where I was working.   to me, the way he moved was fascinating. he reminded me of a cat. graceful, sleek, smooth, and silent.  I'd never never seen anything like it before, and only once since (a white high  school kid running cross country who made it look downright *easy*.)  I think he might have been a seahawk.  I finally understood dh and his "he's just pretty to watch run" about various football players over the years.

 

WHAT IN THE EVER LOVING HELL?

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Do you mean people like Rosa Parks?  

no.  I mean like some celebrities who deliberately go out to get arrested for the PR.  especially ones not making any movies for quite a while beforehand.  it gets them attention.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

The racists I knew were just blatant about it.  Like skinhead tattoo rally burn crap levels, but not that alignment.... there was no mistaking those hateful, prideful words and actions as anything but, even with the most charitable spin.  They’d tell you exactly where they stood if asked 😞

I do not use such a narrow definition of racism. You know why? Because when people are just lightly racist, they can come on board with bad practices. They can refuse to offer someone a job because the application says “Jamal Jackson” and they see the city of residence and say, “Oh, well...not this one.” They can decline to book a vacationer into their Airbnb because the profile picture shows a black person.

I only personally know one wave-Confederate-flag, tell you straight out racist person. This person was in my life by employment, so I couldn’t avoid them. But never would I say that’s the only racist I know. 

Bias is somewhat different because every human being is subject to bias, but we can become aware of our bias and not have it inform our decisions/behavior. This is what happens when we reflect on our own reactions...”Hmmm. Why did I immediately wonder if that middle-eastern-looking man was a threat on this airplane?” Hopefully, we can make better decisions once we have reflected on our own bias, both individually and as a society. 

[gardenmom5]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

 

WHAT IN THE EVER LOVING HELL?

   do you go to the ballet?  do you like watching the dancers dance?  are they graceful?  I've had various dancers stick in my head over the years.  the way they jump, etc.

I recall one who played puck. he was a very new dancer, but he really stuck in my head.  he moved up the ranks fairly quickly because he was just that good.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

   do you go to the ballet?  do you like watching the dancers dance?  are they graceful?  I've had various dancers stick in my head over the years.  the way they jump, etc.

I recall one who played puck. he was a very new dancer, but he really stuck in my head.  he moved up the ranks fairly quickly because he was just that good.

It read weird, your post. And why that would make you racist, I don’t know. 

[LucyStoner]

8 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

and I'm sure you'd tell me I was racist because I was watching a black guy in the small, high end home good store where I was working.   to me, the way he moved was fascinating. he reminded me of a cat. graceful, sleek, smooth, and silent.  I'd never never seen anything like it before, and only once since (a white high  school kid running cross country who made it look downright *easy*.)  I think he might have been a seahawk.  I finally understood dh and his "he's just pretty to watch run" about various football players over the years.

 I liken it to hearing my niece comment on her orchestra director wanting to know when she was going to get a better instrument, and wondering "how do you tell?"  I've since had two  times when I listened to someone play and thought "you need a better instrument".  there's just "something" different.

You simply can not be sure of that.  Your certainty of that about me is a huge leap.  Watching someone is different than demanding to see their money to allow them to touch your cheap, likely copyright violating flea market shirts.  I take situations as they are.  If all you take away from my post is that I see racism where it isn't, then I think that's on you.  Once I was accused of racism because I didn't recall a person's name. No, I'm just shitty at recalling names (and apparently have a neurological reason why, which I never knew).  Honestly, your post reads as a rationalization.  Staring is something that most Americans learn to be very rude.  

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

   do you go to the ballet?  do you like watching the dancers dance?  are they graceful?  I've had various dancers stick in my head over the years.  the way they jump, etc.

I recall one who played puck. he was a very new dancer, but he really stuck in my head.  he moved up the ranks fairly quickly because he was just that good.

 

The dancers are paid to PERFORM. The man in your store was there to shop, in peace, free from your WHITE gaze. He wasn't an animal. This is absolutely atrocious. Stop trying to justify your racist behavior.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Katy]

18 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

See, this could be a terms issue. The three actual legit racists in my history were obvious.  Popular prejudice and bias and bigotry are also things I’ve seen.  But I don’t conflate the two, plenty of people have biases about groups of people but not racism, there were pretty clear differences in what I was seeing.

I will also say I go out of my way to see the absolute best in people and not try to read into their intentions or hearts based on their actions.  I abhor mind reading when it is done to me, and I work intentionally to avoid doing it to others as much as possible.  I think if something is borderline it is best to assume social conditioning or ignorance than racism, given that the latter implies and characteriological attitude of the heart. Prejudice is just such a lesser degree of bias and judgment, but much more common.  When I see someone arguing to retain a statue or stating ‘blue lives matter’ I see nothing inherently racist in those words or actions. There may be wrong thinking or a focus that is insensitive to the cultural context, but that isn’t the same thing.

The racists I knew were just blatant about it.  Like skinhead tattoo rally burn crap levels, but not that alignment.... there was no mistaking those hateful, prideful words and actions as anything but, even with the most charitable spin.  They’d tell you exactly where they stood if asked 😞

 

If you've never witnessed more than 3 acts of racism you live in a bubble.  As a blonde blue eyed Southerner who's lived all over the country I've seen it everywhere.  Sometimes it's a class thing.  Sometimes it's bad cops and social workers.  I know a nurse who was screamed at to "go back home because you're stealing white jobs" while trying to walk in from the parking lot to go to her shift in the ER.

[Matryoshka]

Just a heads-up.  If someone is biased or prejudiced against someone, or a group of someones, because of their race/ethnicity/skin color, that is racism.

Racism does not have to entail full-on KKK regalia and cross-burnings or a constant flow of overtly racist language.  Most racism is even unconscious and unrecognized and unexamined.  That lady in Central Park who called the cops on the scary, bird-watching college professor did not think she was a racist, or that what she did was racist.

[katilac]

 

24 minutes ago, goldenecho said:

 Statues of Robert E. Lee should be treated differently, as he was not a slave owner.  

I already replied that he was a cruel slave owner, but I have to add that I don't think leading the war in support of slavery is a step up anyway. 

7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

   do you go to the ballet?  do you like watching the dancers dance?  are they graceful?  I've had various dancers stick in my head over the years.  the way they jump, etc.

I recall one who played puck. he was a very new dancer, but he really stuck in my head.  he moved up the ranks fairly quickly because he was just that good.

You are meant to watch people who are dancing or playing sports. This poor man was walking in a store. You should probably not be keeping your eye on random customers just because you like the way they move. I mean, if some man was staring at my young daughter in a store, and then explained that, oh no, I don't think she's stealing, I just like the way she moves . . . I would not be appeased. 

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

I do not use such a narrow definition of racism. You know why? Because when people are just lightly racist, they can come on board with bad practices. They can refuse to offer someone a job because the application says “Jamal Jackson” and they see the city of residence and say, “Oh, well...not this one.” They can decline to book a vacationer into their Airbnb because the profile picture shows a black person.

I only personally know one wave-Confederate-flag, tell you straight out racist person. This person was in my life by employment, so I couldn’t avoid them. But never would I say that’s the only racist I know. 

Bias is somewhat different because every human being is subject to bias, but we can become aware of our bias and not have it inform our decisions/behavior. This is what happens when we reflect on our own reactions...”Hmmm. Why did I immediately wonder if that middle-eastern-looking man was a threat on this airplane?” Hopefully, we can make better decisions once we have reflected on our own bias, both individually and as a society. 

everyone has biases, and for many different reasons.

we have an acquaintance who owns his own business.  there are two colleges from which he gets a lot of applications and  their resumes tend to go to the bottom.  at 1)  their graduates tend to be  arrogant  and overestimate their abilities.  and at 2) the graduates tend to be full of theory, and not practical experience.   any other college, he' will look at their resume.

and it works all ways.  I have a friend whose son was hired by a Manhattan law firm because they thought he was Jewish.  (based on their last name.  All the lawyers at the firm were Jewish.)  That was the only reason they even talked to him.    

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

everyone has biases, and for many different reasons.

we have an acquaintance who owns his own business.  there are two colleges from which he gets a lot of applications and  their resumes tend to go to the bottom.  at 1)  their graduates tend to be  arrogant  and overestimate their abilities.  and at 2) the graduates tend to be full of theory, and not practical experience.   any other college, he' will look at their resume.

and it works all ways.  I have a friend whose son was hired by a Manhattan law firm because they thought he was Jewish.  (based on their last name.  All the lawyers at the firm were Jewish.)  That was the only reason they even talked to him.    

 

Are you seriously justifying these egregious examples of bias? If I met you on the street tomorrow, I would give you the benefit of the doubt until you let your true colors fly. This is seriously cray right now.

[ktgrok]

I also want to say, people who have racist beliefs or attitudes often are more misinformed than hateful. Absolutely! I posted a statistic about black men having a 1 in 1,000 chance of being killed by police on my facebook page. My neighbor went on a tear about how that's actually way less than white men. I explained it wasn't, and provided proof. He continued to insist that it was, that white men are killed more often. I explained that in sheer numbers, yes, but black men are only x percentage of the population, etc etc, so comparatively it is a higher risk for them. You have to adjust the denominator. 

Now, he didn't on his own come up with the idea that black  men are less at risk than white men on his own, out of some hatred or evil desire. He had been TOLD that, over and over and over again, until it became truth to him. Until he was unable to comprehend it wasn't true, even when shown the facts, (including graphs someone else posted, in case it was just a math issue). His ignorance of that fact is not him being an evil hateful racist. But his worldview, which includes that fact a whole lot of others I won't get into, is pretty darned racist. It has been formed by misinformation, fear, and other issues. I don't think he's a hateful person, but yeah, he's racist. (heck, he's ADMITTED it! His wife tried to say, "we aren't racist...but...." and he interrupted and said, "Yes, yes we are, a little." And that's what he meant - he believes people of a certain color are more prone to violence, more of a threat to him and his family, etc etc etc and he feels all those things are their personal failing, with no room for any nuance or understanding anything else. 

[Matryoshka]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

everyone has biases, and for many different reasons.

we have an acquaintance who owns his own business.  there are two colleges from which he gets a lot of applications and  their resumes tend to go to the bottom.  at 1)  their graduates tend to be  arrogant  and overestimate their abilities.  and at 2) the graduates tend to be full of theory, and not practical experience.   any other college, he' will look at their resume.

and it works all ways.  I have a friend whose son was hired by a Manhattan law firm because they thought he was Jewish.  (based on their last name.  All the lawyers at the firm were Jewish.)  That was the only reason they even talked to him.    

No one is arguing that we don't all have biases, for all different reasons, and often even unconscious.  When these biases are based on race/ethnicity/skin color, they are also called racism.  The fact that we all have them is why is disingenuous to just say 'I'm not racist'. What we have to do is try to examine our own behavior to try to see our biases and make sure we are as fair-minded as we think we are... that's why Kendi argues the opposite of racist is antiracist.  We have to actively work against our own biases, not just pretend we don't have them or throw up our hands because we all do.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Matryoshka

[gardenmom5]

11 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

 

You are meant to watch people who are dancing or playing sports. This poor man was walking in a store. You should probably not be keeping your eye on random customers just because you like the way they move. I mean, if some man was staring at my young daughter in a store, and then explained that, oh no, I don't think she's stealing, I just like the way she moves . . . I would not be appeased. 

I realize that - I had never seen anyone move that way.  it was fascinating. he was graceful, smooth, and frankly if he'd been a seahawk (which I'd heard something about that later) - it would probably have been a conversation starter.  I wasn't following him around the small store.  

and frankly - I'd be creeped out if any man were watching my young daughter (or even a young son) in a store -for ANY reason!  them being afraid of my child stealing wouldn't occur to me - I'd be concerned they were a child preditor.

I've been profiled in a store.  I was tired and depressed and looking at perfume to try and cheer myself up. the clerk stuck to me like glue.  i felt treated like a thief by the clerk.  I ended up leaving in tears.

Edited June 24, 2020 by gardenmom5

[ktgrok]

 

55 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

a lot of those confederate statues built long after the civil war - I believe was about a humiliated people trying to recover their self-respect.  

 

Can I ask what facts/info you base that belief on?

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

everyone has biases, and for many different reasons.

 

And if that bias is about race, and it influences any power relationships, that's racism. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

I've been profiled in a store.  I was tired and depressed and looking at perfume to try and cheer myself up. the clerk stuck to me like glue.  i felt treated like a thief by the clerk.  I ended up leaving in tears.

And that happened to you once. Imagine it happening almost every time you went shopping, all your life. 

[katilac]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

and frankly - I'd be creeped out if any man were watching my young daughter (or even a young son) in a store -for ANY reason!  them being afraid of my child stealing wouldn't occur to me - I'd be concerned they were a child preditor.

I meant young as in pretty young thing, not child. 

[LucyStoner]

13 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

everyone has biases, and for many different reasons.

we have an acquaintance who owns his own business.  there are two colleges from which he gets a lot of applications and  their resumes tend to go to the bottom.  at 1)  their graduates tend to be  arrogant  and overestimate their abilities.  and at 2) the graduates tend to be full of theory, and not practical experience.   any other college, he' will look at their resume.

and it works all ways.  I have a friend whose son was hired by a Manhattan law firm because they thought he was Jewish.  (based on their last name.  All the lawyers at the firm were Jewish.)  That was the only reason they even talked to him.    

How do you think these things balance out in the end?  Do you reckon that for every person binning resumes with the POC sounding names, there is someone else binning resumes with white sounding names?  

Also, do you really think that a non-Jewish person got through in interview with a firm comprised solely of Jewish lawyers without the Jewish lawyers picking up on the fact that he wasn't Jewish?  These sound like the sorts of anecdotes people swap at dinner parties but seem like they need a little critical analysis.  

Edited June 24, 2020 by LucyStoner

[TheReader]

6 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

So, you think it would be okay if Germans kept up statues of their 'heroes' from WWII?  Hitler did a lot of great things for the German people.  Created the Autobahn system, for one.  Should we just overlook that 'cause he killed some people because of their ethnicity?  It was only the people who weren't 'really' German.  

Find out when those statues were put up.  Bet it was not right after the Civil War.  It was much later, and the purpose was pure intimidation of the African-American populace, along with night riders and cross burnings and lynchings. To remember their 'place'.  Those statues were never put up for some innocent 'honor our history'.  And why are we honoring a history of armed uprising against our government for the express purpose of keeping other people as property?  Why is that something we want to honor?   Statues are indeed symbols, and if they are a nice penny-dropping memory for you, but a symbol of oppression and fear for a large swath of the populace, which feeling do you think should prevail?

I started to write a reply, and thought I'd better go and get my facts straight first, because the Sully statue was dedicated in 1918, which in my mind was way before lynchings and such. 

Only, I found that Texas has a horrific history of burning African Americans at the stake, roughly 1 per year, from 1891 to 1922, which holy freaking cow I never knew. Wow. Just....I had no idea. (info here: https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/texas-lynching/)

So, thank you for your reply. I'd only ever looked at the Sully statue in context of the blurb spread by the school (linked here:https://www.tamu.edu/traditions/aggie-culture/pennies-on-sully/index.html) and never really knew, at all, until his statue was vandalized this year, that he even *had* history prior to that, and in the context he's described....and not knowing the extent of his civil war role.....I thought "meh, he's not so bad/it's not so bad."   I was wrong. 

I know it doesn't happen often, but thanks to your post, I did read. I did take the time to learn. And, yea, I'm horrified. 

*

[LucyStoner]

6 minutes ago, TheReader said:

I started to write a reply, and thought I'd better go and get my facts straight first, because the Sully statue was dedicated in 1918, which in my mind was way before lynchings and such. 

Only, I found that Texas has a horrific history of burning African Americans at the stake, roughly 1 per year, from 1891 to 1922, which holy freaking cow I never knew. Wow. Just....I had no idea. (info here: https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/texas-lynching/)

So, thank you for your reply. I'd only ever looked at the Sully statue in context of the blurb spread by the school (linked here:https://www.tamu.edu/traditions/aggie-culture/pennies-on-sully/index.html) and never really knew, at all, until his statue was vandalized this year, that he even *had* history prior to that, and in the context he's described....and not knowing the extent of his civil war role.....I thought "meh, he's not so bad/it's not so bad."   I was wrong. 

I know it doesn't happen often, but thanks to your post, I did read. I did take the time to learn. And, yea, I'm horrified. 

*

I think on of the most bizarre things about how American history is taught K-12 is that the lead up to the Civil Rights movement is presented as being dated to the 50s or 40s and rather than the fact that it was a continual effort from the founding of the first freedman's organizations.  Many people have basically nil awareness of American history and race from the end of the Civil War until Brown V The Board of Education (1954).  

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Can I ask what facts/info you base that belief on?

And if that bias is about race, and it influences any power relationships, that's racism. 

like I said, it goes both ways.

I had a black trainer at a job.  she had power over my training, etc.  she was a racist in that it was only fair white women she bullied.  she was one of those asking questions, but didn't make the final hiring decision.  but I watched the number of fair women who were driven to quit within weeks by how she treated us.  I also ended up quitting a job I felt I  desperately needed.  -  there was one indian woman  she as buddy buddy with.  the trainer was the ONLY other person who knew she'd gone to the bank during lunch, and cashed her paycheck and knew where her purse was.  the purse was still there, the money was gone.   

I was at a funeral for one of the teachers at my daughter's school.  next door classroom and the way things were set up , there was some crossover between classrooms.  a few years later, she died suddenly.   her bff was the daughter of a friend who was very worried about her dd and asked me and another woman to go to the funeral to help support her dd.  huge black baptist church in seattle.  so, I thought it would be good to not leave any empty seats between people, so there would be enough chairs for everyone.  well, apparently, the black husband we ended up next to wanted his space, glared,  and took his family to an entirely different row.  these were armchairs btw, not a bench.  I didn't understand it at the time -   I was just making sure there were no unused seats so no one would have to stand.

[TheReader]

11 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I think on of the most bizarre things about how American history is taught K-12 is that the lead up to the Civil Rights movement is presented as being dated to the 50s or 40s and rather than the fact that it was a continual effort from the founding of the first freedman's organizations.  Many people have basically nil awareness of American history and race from the end of the Civil War until Brown V The Board of Education (1954).  

This is certainly true in my case; I honestly thought all of that -- everything ugly -- took place more or less in the 50s or so. Certainly as post-WWII. 

I don't know if that's due to the constant "we're out of time, here are the highlights" aspect of most US History classes, or an intentional whitewashing of history, or both, or.....that one quick google really revealed the huge gaps in my history knowledge. I've got a LOT more reading/learning to do than I thought. 

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

How do you think these things balance out in the end?  Do you reckon that for every person binning resumes with the POC sounding names, there is someone else binning resumes with white sounding names?  

Also, do you really think that a non-Jewish person got through in interview with a firm comprised solely of Jewish lawyers without the Jewish lawyers picking up on the fact that he wasn't Jewish?  These sound like the sorts of anecdotes people swap at dinner parties but seem like they need a little critical analysis.  

 I'm basing that they thought he was Jewish because they told him that they hired him because they thought he was jewish.  are you saying they're lying?

dd has been to tech conferences with women managers telling how they screw over men to hire women.  their words.  to me- that' is just as wrong as screwing over women to hire a man.

I would love to see people just look at a person's abilities/degrees.   forget names, forget schools, forget extra curriculars (some people simply have more support to engage in such than others.)

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

And it's so often taught as though it just happened.  Like one day there was this lady, who was riding a bus, and her feet were tired and so she didn't get up, and then this pastor happened to hear about it so he decided to start talking about it and then . . . 

I was an adult one day listening to NPR, when they happened to mention her role investigating sexual crimes against black women, including the gang-rape of Recy Taylor.  I was stunned, because the narrative I had been taught in school didn't jibe with that fact at all.   

 

And a lot of the people who lived it are still alive. Both of my parents have very vivid memories of their youth in Seattle/Tacoma. They are not at all pleasant.

[ScoutTN]

5 hours ago, dmmetler said:

I would go for that. As would a good chunk of the state of TN 🙂

She has paid for millions of picture books for children! 

[Jentrovert]

1 minute ago, TheReader said:

This is certainly true in my case; I honestly thought all of that -- everything ugly -- took place more or less in the 50s or so. Certainly as post-WWII. 

I don't know if that's due to the constant "we're out of time, here are the highlights" aspect of most US History classes, or an intentional whitewashing of history, or both, or.....that one quick google really revealed the huge gaps in my history knowledge. I've got a LOT more reading/learning to do than I thought. 

We never made it past the Civil War in any history class I ever had, with one exception. Every year, we worked straight through the book and ran out of time toward the end of the Civil War. (I do not recall ever studying world history in school, only American.)

The one exception was a class in 10th grade that I assume focused exclusively on WWII. I assume this because all I remember from that class is the "Kill Japs!" motto the teacher repeated daily for the whole semester.

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, TheReader said:

This is certainly true in my case; I honestly thought all of that -- everything ugly -- took place more or less in the 50s or so. Certainly as post-WWII. 

I don't know if that's due to the constant "we're out of time, here are the highlights" aspect of most US History classes, or an intentional whitewashing of history, or both, or.....that one quick google really revealed the huge gaps in my history knowledge. I've got a LOT more reading/learning to do than I thought. 

My high school made US history a 1.5 credit class and the third semester was 1945-present (then the 80's). Such a good move! I learned a ton that we would never have had time to cover otherwise. I had teachers who were Vietnam vets, who marched with Dr. King, who saw Elvis and The Beatles when they first got big etc.
The class was hugely popular.

Edited June 25, 2020 by ScoutTN

[katilac]

46 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I also want to say, people who have racist beliefs or attitudes often are more misinformed than hateful. Absolutely! I posted a statistic about black men having a 1 in 1,000 chance of being killed by police on my facebook page. My neighbor went on a tear about how that's actually way less than white men. I explained it wasn't, and provided proof. He continued to insist that it was, that white men are killed more often. I explained that in sheer numbers, yes, but black men are only x percentage of the population, etc etc, so comparatively it is a higher risk for them. You have to adjust the denominator. 

Now, he didn't on his own come up with the idea that black  men are less at risk than white men on his own, out of some hatred or evil desire. He had been TOLD that, over and over and over again, until it became truth to him. Until he was unable to comprehend it wasn't true, even when shown the facts, (including graphs someone else posted, in case it was just a math issue). His ignorance of that fact is not him being an evil hateful racist. But his worldview, which includes that fact a whole lot of others I won't get into, is pretty darned racist. It has been formed by misinformation, fear, and other issues. I don't think he's a hateful person, but yeah, he's racist. (heck, he's ADMITTED it! His wife tried to say, "we aren't racist...but...." and he interrupted and said, "Yes, yes we are, a little." And that's what he meant - he believes people of a certain color are more prone to violence, more of a threat to him and his family, etc etc etc and he feels all those things are their personal failing, with no room for any nuance or understanding anything else. 

If he refused to consider actual, provable facts, then he loses the right to be called more misinformed than hateful. 

[TheReader]

1 minute ago, ScoutTN said:

My high school made US history a 1.5 credit class and the third semester was 1945-present (rhen the 80's). Such a good move! I learned a ton that we would never have had time to cover otherwise. I had teachers who were Vietnam vets, who matched with Dr. King, who saw Elvis and The Beatles when they first got big etc. 

that would have been brilliant. 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

and I'm sure you'd tell me I was racist because I was watching a black guy in the small, high end home good store where I was working.   to me, the way he moved was fascinating. he reminded me of a cat. graceful, sleek, smooth, and silent.  I'd never never seen anything like it before, and only once since (a white high  school kid running cross country who made it look downright *easy*.)  I think he might have been a seahawk.  I finally understood dh and his "he's just pretty to watch run" about various football players over the years.

 I liken it to hearing my niece comment on her orchestra director wanting to know when she was going to get a better instrument, and wondering "how do you tell?"  I've since had two  times when I listened to someone play and thought "you need a better instrument".  there's just "something" different.

 

This is a really weird thing that you wrote. Really, really, REALLY weird. 

[Matryoshka]

27 minutes ago, TheReader said:

This is certainly true in my case; I honestly thought all of that -- everything ugly -- took place more or less in the 50s or so. Certainly as post-WWII. 

I don't know if that's due to the constant "we're out of time, here are the highlights" aspect of most US History classes, or an intentional whitewashing of history, or both, or.....that one quick google really revealed the huge gaps in my history knowledge. I've got a LOT more reading/learning to do than I thought. 

For history reading, I highly, highly, highly recommend The Warmth of Other Suns, which is about the Great Migration.  I think we maybe got a sentence on that in school, which is why I wanted to read it.  So interesting, and it's a very well told book - not at all boring or dry.  Also recommended, The Devil in the Grove, and Just Mercy (not the kids' abridged version).  Read The Warmth of Other Suns first, as it gives a lot of context to the other ones.  I also hear Stamped from the Beginning is very good, but I haven't read it yet (on the list).  It might be another good one for context.

I feel like I've spent a big chunk of my adult life filling in gaps from school.  We never got past WWII in any history class in high school, and it was 100% Western history.

[TheReader]

8 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

For history reading, I highly, highly, highly recommend The Warmth of Other Suns, which is about the Great Migration.  I think we maybe got a sentence on that in school, which is why I wanted to read it.  So interesting, and it's a very well told book - not at all boring or dry.  Also recommended, The Devil in the Grove, and Just Mercy (not the kids' abridged version).  Read The Warmth of Other Suns first, as it gives a lot of context to the other ones.  I also hear Stamped from the Beginning is very good, but I haven't read it yet (on the list).  It might be another good one for context.

I feel like I've spent a big chunk of my adult life filling in gaps from school.  We never got past WWII in any history class in high school, and it was 100% Western history.

thank you! I'm making a list. I appreciate this. 

[Caroline]

“The heartbeat of racism is denial.”—Dr. Ibram X. Kendi

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Jentrovert said:

We never made it past the Civil War in any history class I ever had, with one exception. Every year, we worked straight through the book and ran out of time toward the end of the Civil War. (I do not recall ever studying world history in school, only American.)

The one exception was a class in 10th grade that I assume focused exclusively on WWII. I assume this because all I remember from that class is the "Kill Japs!" motto the teacher repeated daily for the whole semester.

I was 38 and taking a class at community college before I ever heard of Japanese Americans being interned. Either this was never taught in any school experience I had or it was glossed over/barely mentioned and I did not understand what was being said. “We dragged Japanese Americans from their homes and stuck them in camps? What?!” I could not believe it. I even talked about it on this board. 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

like I said, it goes both ways.

I had a black trainer at a job.  she had power over my training, etc.  she was a racist in that it was only fair white women she bullied.  she was one of those asking questions, but didn't make the final hiring decision.  but I watched the number of fair women who were driven to quit within weeks by how she treated us.  I also ended up quitting a job I felt I  desperately needed.  -  there was one indian woman  she as buddy buddy with.  the trainer was the ONLY other person who knew she'd gone to the bank during lunch, and cashed her paycheck and knew where her purse was.  the purse was still there, the money was gone.   

I was at a funeral for one of the teachers at my daughter's school.  next door classroom and the way things were set up , there was some crossover between classrooms.  a few years later, she died suddenly.   her bff was the daughter of a friend who was very worried about her dd and asked me and another woman to go to the funeral to help support her dd.  huge black baptist church in seattle.  so, I thought it would be good to not leave any empty seats between people, so there would be enough chairs for everyone.  well, apparently, the black husband we ended up next to wanted his space, glared,  and took his family to an entirely different row.  these were armchairs btw, not a bench.  I didn't understand it at the time -   I was just making sure there were no unused seats so no one would have to stand.

 

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 I'm basing that they thought he was Jewish because they told him that they hired him because they thought he was jewish.  are you saying they're lying?

dd has been to tech conferences with women managers telling how they screw over men to hire women.  their words.  to me- that' is just as wrong as screwing over women to hire a man.

I would love to see people just look at a person's abilities/degrees.   forget names, forget schools, forget extra curriculars (some people simply have more support to engage in such than others.)

 

I can't figure out what point you are trying to make. You are telling anecdotes about times someone was mean or unfair, (or times you thought they were mean or unfair), and well those mean people were also Black or Jewish or female, so that proves...what?  That it's ok to have racial, religious, or gender bias if you have a really good reason? That you don't need to do anything to counter those biases if your reasons for having them are justifiable? Because that's how it's sounding to me, and that's not a positive quality being reflected in you.  It makes you sound racist. 

Like, what are you even trying to say with that first story? "There was this one time when I had a Black supervisor and she was mean and then the Indian lady cashed her paycheck and then the money was gone, sooooo...". So what? The supervisor took it? I guess? If so, what does her being Black have to do with anything? 

Sometimes, people of other races and backgrounds won't be nice to you, but it's not because they are "Black" or "Indian" or "Jewish" or "Female". It's because they are human beings who are also flawed or maybe having a bad day.  Their "otherness" doesn't predispose them to bad behavior, and your middle class whiteness doesn't entitle you to good treatment.  

 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

like I said, it goes both ways.

I had a black trainer at a job.  she had power over my training, etc.  she was a racist in that it was only fair white women she bullied.  she was one of those asking questions, but didn't make the final hiring decision.  but I watched the number of fair women who were driven to quit within weeks by how she treated us.  I also ended up quitting a job I felt I  desperately needed.  -  there was one indian woman  she as buddy buddy with.  the trainer was the ONLY other person who knew she'd gone to the bank during lunch, and cashed her paycheck and knew where her purse was.  the purse was still there, the money was gone.   

I

So, she was a nasty person. Perhaps racist. But to equate a lady at work who was mean to slavery, lynchings, redlining, the GI bill ridiculousness, voter supression, segregation, etc...is kind of comparing one apple to a planet of oranges. I mean, its wrong, but not the main problem, and probably a direct reaction to the main problem, you know? The people that did the enslaving and the lynching and the redlining don't get to say, "well, we would be nice to you, but not until you are nice to us", you know?

1 hour ago, katilac said:

If he refused to consider actual, provable facts, then he loses the right to be called more misinformed than hateful. 

I actually have a follow up. I ended up deleting a bunch of the comments because it got ugly. And I messaged him today, and told him I deleted them, because although I am very much in favor of debating facts, I don't want my page used for going after people in any way. Ideas are fair game, people are not, and it had gotten too personal. I also said that I was sorry for not monitoring it when it happened, and catching it before it got that far (the conversation got heated between him and another facebook friend of mine - not between him and I. When I argue, I don't get mean. i get logical.) He apologized himself, said that he does want to be open minded, and that he does realize bad things are happening to black people in this country at the hands of police. I would like to think that interactions with me, someone who is unapologetic about her beliefs, and will stand up for the truth and for facts, but also will show kindness, and will engage with him on the facts but not personal attacks, has helped open his mind. He knows I'm not attacking him as a person, I made that clear, only debating the ideas. I think he took a step towards listening. I hope so. 

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Danae said:

I was 12 when I learned about this.

From The Karate Kid.

I watched The Karate Kid, but I still didn’t understand what happened. I didn’t realize what had happened to Mr. Miyagi. 

[Jentrovert]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

I was 38 and taking a class at community college before I ever heard of Japanese Americans being interned. Either this was never taught in any school experience I had or it was glossed over/barely mentioned and I did not understand what was being said. “We dragged Japanese Americans from their homes and stuck them in camps? What?!” I could not believe it. I even talked about it on this board. 

It's crazy the things I missed. Unfortunately, I did not think I liked history for a number of years into adulthood, and kind of avoided it. (Wonder why?) I wish now I had used those years to learn more, because now I don't have the time.

Well, I'm learning along with the kids, of course, so in another decade I will be more knowledgeable. 😄

I don't remember ever hearing about the internment in school, but I did know about it. There's plenty more I don't know, though.

[Jentrovert]

12 minutes ago, Danae said:

I was 12 when I learned about this.

From The Karate Kid.

Oh, I bet that's where I heard it too.

[Terabith]

Ya know, I am so, SO glad that all of my junior high social studies teachers were African American.  We never got past the Civil War in regular history, but thanks to black history month, and a belief that black history month wasn't just February, we learned all the things.  Tulsa bombings, Juneteenth, what led up to Rosa Parks staying seated on the bus, all those "Did you know?" things that go around facebook.  

[Terabith]

Howard Zinn should be required reading in every high school in America.

[bolt.]

17 minutes ago, Quill said:

I was 38 and taking a class at community college before I ever heard of Japanese Americans being interned. Either this was never taught in any school experience I had or it was glossed over/barely mentioned and I did not understand what was being said. “We dragged Japanese Americans from their homes and stuck them in camps? What?!” I could not believe it. I even talked about it on this board. 

When I started HSing my 12yo daughter, she commented as we began Canadian history that she was frustrated that no one was teaching history in her earlier grades. She thought they were just teaching poorly. I knew that the curriculum actually avoids trying to make sense out of Canadian history for little kids. 

I explained to her that history really isn't appropriate or understandable for younger kids. That's because the truth of history is *dark* -- it's bloody, harsh, prejudiced and there are no 'good guys'. So when faced with youngsters, you either have to sanitize and simplify the truth right out of it... or you mostly avoid teaching history (and stick to a few vignettes without much context) until students are older. It seems to me that Americans tend to go the other way educationally. There's a method to sanitize, simplify, and create a comprehensible narrative for those young minds: but I'm guessing that that approach immunizes students against a robust or nuanced understanding of a nation's legacy. The glossing is basically mandatory if you are going to try to explain a war to a 6yo, right?

I'm not trying to be critical: neither option (glossing or avoiding) seems great. I can see the pros and cons of either approach. With my dd12, we've gotten through the early times up to the war of 1812, and she recently commented that she understands now why her teachers weren't bringing up these difficult topics when she was a younger student.

[katilac]

3 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Lincoln didn't start the civil was because of slavery - he did because the south succeeded.

Whoa, whoa, back up the train! Lincoln didn't start the civil war at all. The Confederates started the war when they fired on Fort Sumter. 

It is true that ending slavery was not Lincoln's top priority; that was preserving the nation. 

16 minutes ago, Quill said:

I was 38 and taking a class at community college before I ever heard of Japanese Americans being interned. Either this was never taught in any school experience I had or it was glossed over/barely mentioned and I did not understand what was being said. “We dragged Japanese Americans from their homes and stuck them in camps? What?!” I could not believe it. I even talked about it on this board. 

That's insane 😱

[Terabith]

12 minutes ago, bolt. said:

When I started HSing my 12yo daughter, she commented as we began Canadian history that she was frustrated that no one was teaching history in her earlier grades. She thought they were just teaching poorly. I knew that the curriculum actually avoids trying to make sense out of Canadian history for little kids. 

I explained to her that history really isn't appropriate or understandable for younger kids. That's because the truth of history is *dark* -- it's bloody, harsh, prejudiced and there are no 'good guys'. So when faced with youngsters, you either have to sanitize and simplify the truth right out of it... or you mostly avoid teaching history (and stick to a few vignettes without much context) until students are older. It seems to me that Americans tend to go the other way educationally. There's a method to sanitize, simplify, and create a comprehensible narrative for those young minds: but I'm guessing that that approach immunizes students against a robust or nuanced understanding of a nation's legacy. The glossing is basically mandatory if you are going to try to explain a war to a 6yo, right?

I'm not trying to be critical: neither option (glossing or avoiding) seems great. I can see the pros and cons of either approach. With my dd12, we've gotten through the early times up to the war of 1812, and she recently commented that she understands now why her teachers weren't bringing up these difficult topics when she was a younger student.

Not to brag, but the absolute coolest thing I did when I was homeschooling was create a both historically accurate and developmentally appropriate two year history course for K-2 utilizing picture books.  We did Trail of Tears, Civil War, Japanese internment.  I mean, certainly didn't cover everything, but we covered major highlights of pretty dark stuff.  

[Matryoshka]

Just now, Terabith said:

Not to brag, but the absolute coolest thing I did when I was homeschooling was create a both historically accurate and developmentally appropriate two year history course for K-2 utilizing picture books.  We did Trail of Tears, Civil War, Japanese internment.  I mean, certainly didn't cover everything, but we covered major highlights of pretty dark stuff.  

I did similar stuff with my kids. History can be taught to young kids without over-sanitizing. 

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Howard Zinn should be required reading in every high school in America.

Zinn was taught at my high school, alongside a range of others.  We also got a very diverse set of English Lit courses.  

Granted, my high school was also featured on the most popular conservative cable news network as an example of what schools are like when run by those crazy Seattle liberals. Even I myself commonly refer to it as hippie high.  

It was a solid, free, public education though.  I was very well prepared for college.  Now anyone with any google skills probably knows where I went to high school.  Here I am in my friend’s high school yearbook picture, which was produced like any classic 90s zine.  I’m the one who looks short, though I think my friend is standing on a step because we are the same height more or less.    🤣

Edited June 25, 2020 by LucyStoner