My parents did not attend my niece’s wedding

[katilac]

3 hours ago, unsinkable said:

I never would have put my child in that position. If I already knew a person thought so little of my child that they avoided talking to them, I wouldn't have asked my child to escort that person in a public event.

I think of it as protecting my minor child (child is still a minor, right?) not catering to the other person's discomfort.

The wedding couple chooses the ushers and such. You don't chit-chat with the usher as they escort you, so I can see how they did not anticipate a problem. 

42 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Having personal experience with my grandparents not going to my brother's wedding and not saying so until the day of because of my Grandmother's sudden explosive diarrhea she had never had before the wedding day, I can completely understand that it might very well be a legitimate, sudden issue everyone else wouldn't know about and those that did would likely not go into detail about it. If an elderly person can't back out of a social event at the last minute with "I'm not feeling well" then we must be in a parallel universe where up is down, light is dark, and right is wrong.

They have apparently given a lot of people ample reason to suspect that it was not a legitimate issue. Sudden illness can happen to anyone and generally merits understanding and sympathy when you haven't been acting like an ass. In this case, the fact that they are being doubted is a direct result of their ongoing prior behavior. 

[catz]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Having personal experience with my grandparents not going to my brother's wedding and not saying so until the day of because of my Grandmother's sudden explosive diarrhea she had never had before the wedding day, I can completely understand that it might very well be a legitimate, sudden issue everyone else wouldn't know about and those that did would likely not go into detail about it. If an elderly person can't back out of a social event at the last minute with "I'm not feeling well" then we must be in a parallel universe where up is down, light is dark, and right is wrong.

The fact that you can say definitively what happened to grandma that day makes this situation different.  Actions of people are often viewed through the lens of past behavior.  

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

But I expect from my parents’ perspective that is tacitly condoning sin.

What makes me so crazy about this is that I only ever see it in regards to what some view as sexual sin. Unwed pregnancy, living together without marriage, and most of all, being gay/queer/trans. Other sins get a pass, at least to the extent of being willing to talk to the person in passing. I never see or hear about people refusing to engage in basic, minimal social conventions because someone is selfish or slothful or gluttonous or dishonest. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Having personal experience with my grandparents not going to my brother's wedding and not saying so until the day of because of my Grandmother's sudden explosive diarrhea she had never had before the wedding day, I can completely understand that it might very well be a legitimate, sudden issue everyone else wouldn't know about and those that did would likely not go into detail about it. If an elderly person can't back out of a social event at the last minute with "I'm not feeling well" then we must be in a parallel universe where up is down, light is dark, and right is wrong.

This is not like that. My mom and my dad dropped hints to me and other sister they might not go because it was near the city, didn’t want to be out in the dark, worried about having to walk, didn’t want to come from that area home late at night. It’s not as though they were, “Oh yes, we’re coming with bells on, cant wait!” And then on the wedding day, BOTH suddenly had an attack of violent illness. They were pussy-footin’ they might not come and then didn’t but only told my other sister, not the MOB sister. 

All of the reasons they hinted they might not go were solveable problems; IMO, if they wanted to go but were worried about those things as legitimate obstacles, discussing it with my sister ahead of time could have solved every problem. I don’t think they wanted solutions because they were making excuses. 

The groom’s granny was there and I swear she’s as old as Methuselah and is less coherent than my mom. 

[scholastica]

Not quoting, but OP, what you said about putting the grandparents and the child they have an issue with together for a very public appearance is disturbing. Your sister was almost daring your parents to do something. There are a lot of unhealthy relationship dynamics here, not just your parents. Your sister set them up to “fail” in this way. Their reaction wasn’t great, but the initial situation seems unfair to them, as well. It’s one thing to invite them to the function where the person is in attendance, but this was way more than that. I’m sorry your parents were unable to communicate with your sister In a healthy way about it. I wish you luck in navigating this with everyone.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Not quoting, but OP, what you said about putting the grandparents and the child they have an issue with together for a very public appearance is disturbing. Your sister was almost daring your parents to do something. There are a lot of unhealthy relationship dynamics here, not just your parents. Your sister set them up to “fail” in this way. Their reaction wasn’t great, but the initial situation seems unfair to them, as well. It’s one thing to invite them to the function where the person is in attendance, but this was way more than that. I’m sorry your parents were unable to communicate with your sister In a healthy way about it. I wish you luck in navigating this with everyone.

There are definitely dysfunctional relationships abundantly for all involved. FWIW, I don’t think my sister was daring them to do something. I think, as I said upthread, she had a vision of my parents just being decent about it and that didn’t happen. I think she hoped they would be able to abide walking twenty feet with the kid. I also think that’s just normal for how teens might be involved in their sister’s wedding if they are not a bridesmaid or groomsman. So that’s the job her teen kids (two of them) had for the wedding. 

[katilac]

30 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Not quoting, but OP, what you said about putting the grandparents and the child they have an issue with together for a very public appearance is disturbing. Your sister was almost daring your parents to do something.  

I strongly disagree. First of all, the wedding couple chose the ushers, not her sister. Should they not have allowed the bride's sibling to be an usher just because they knew this set of grandparents had an issue with her? Should everyone walk on eggshells and make decisions based on the possibility that these grandparents can't act civilly for a few moments? No one was asking them to wear a rainbow tuxedo to a gay wedding while helping to light a unity candle. In your scenario, they can't bear to be seen with their grandchild. That's unbearably sad to me. 

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Attending a wedding isn't a basic, minimal social convention. Unless weddings are a heck of lot shorter and less fuss where you are from than where I am! 

Basic minimal social convention is 'how was the wedding, dear ?'

Basic, minimal social convention was in regards to the usher escorting them to their seat (based on the OP). Speaking briefly and politely to a person at other gatherings is also basic, minimal social interaction (let alone your own grandchild at a family gathering). 

Weddings are pretty short where I am, usually 30 to 45 minutes, no fuss required other than wearing suitable clothes. Regardless, I do personally consider attending the wedding of a close family member to be a pretty high obligation, and my guess is that the grandparents have always done so in the past. 

[shawthorne44]

I think that there is some confusion about the kids.   It wasn't the disapproved grandchild that was getting married.   The disapproved grandchild was merely the sister of the bride. 
To me, that somehow makes it even worse. 

Quill, how did you turn out OK?   Note, I have said to more than one friend "How did you end up OK and not dead in the gutter or in supermax?"    So, I understand that people can rise about their parents.  It still amazes me, though. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

People sometimes destroy their own family over political differences as well as over judgement of personal identity or personal life decisions. 

For my family we've chosen to stand up for our children, even when the older generation was ready to literally condemn them and us to hell for not doing (or believing) what they wanted. Our decision to not obey actual *commands* from the relatives or to placate them any further has caused us to be shunned. We no longer have a real relationship with a HUGE extended family, because everyone else thought it was fine for us to be treated this way.

I won't say we don't miss them, but the pain has already started to fade after a couple of years. And there has not been one moment during that time that I have regretted our decisions. For not one moment have I thought that maybe someone should have changed their religion or hidden their identity or been ashamed of respectable life decisions, just to please their relatives. And frankly, I do not miss those who stood by and let this happen to us. Now, if anyone ever apologizes and wants to make amends, of course, we would be open to that. But it would have to be coming from a place of equality and acceptance amongst us all, instead of our just being tolerated as the black sheep. We put up with that dynamic for FAR too long.

So that's my stance. If it's a matter of standing by someone (especially minors, especially young people) and supporting their right to their identity, beliefs, politics, and non-harmful life choices, that's where I'm standing. Relationships, even family, require respect and maintenance. Abusive control from the older generation is not an acceptable alternative to respect and relationship.

Now, regarding Quill's situation, I am 100% Team Go to the Mountains for this year. If this is an unfixable situation, just opt out of the awkwardness for this year and wait to see how things progress. No split holiday parties, no awkward situations in which you have to pretend that it's somehow OK for Grandma and Grandpa to not even speak to Grandchild while showering gifts and attention on other grandchildren. No way. Do your own family thing for the main holidays. That doesn't mean you don't meet up with sister and kids, or go to visit parents and take care of them and bring a gift or whatever; just don't do the Big Family Party.

The time comes for families to stop doing holidays together, or take a break, at least. The trick is recognizing when that time has come. Be thankful for good memories, if you've got 'em, but the present is for the needs of people in the present. If they need support, or some serious time and distance, or at least to enjoy a holiday without judgment, that's more important than a tradition that is making everyone miserable.

Edited to add: I've told my kids that if someone is withholding affection, approval, and relationship because they don't like something about you that

A. Is part of your identity and not up for change, or

B. is about a decision that you have a legal, moral, and ethical right to make,

then that person is not really going to approve of you or accept you even if you dance to their tune or try to live a lie. 

Address it at THAT point - where they are rejecting you or trying to manipulate you in an area where they really do not have any rights or any say. Because my children know what unconditional love is like, and they have friends whom they treat respectfully even when they disagree. My children know right from wrong. And we don't enable or accommodate wrongs toward ourselves or toward others.

Young people need older relatives who will understand and empower them in these attempts at better relationships, instead of siding with abusive other relatives against them in any way. If we can't stand up to our parents, aunts, uncles, etc. on our kids' behalf, at least we can put an end to the "holidays" which are pretty unholy, if the premise is to make others feel unaccepted and small.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Lang Syne Boardie

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I think part of your sister's anger is that she probably knew ahead of time that she wasn't going to get the acceptance she's craving for herself and her kid, but she hoped she would, anyway.  She's probably angry with herself for hoping, as much as anything else. 

Personally, I think your approach is healthier and more realistic - your parents will not change. I would not waste my time trying to get them to change.

That first paragraph - yes, that is my read on it, too. 

I do think it is healthier but it took a long time for me to understand this in adulthood. I first met with the idea in Stephen Covey’s 7 Habits of Highly Effective People where he talks about your Circle of Concern and your Circle of Influence. At first it was an absolute revelation to me that I could only work in my Circle of Influence. I could only choose *my* behavior, responses, actions. Since then, it has been many years of learning to apply that, but I still have my moments where I forget. 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

Quill, how did you turn out OK?   Note, I have said to more than one friend "How did you end up OK and not dead in the gutter or in supermax?"    So, I understand that people can rise about their parents.  It still amazes me, though. 

Lol, I didn’t turn out OK; I’m all effed up! 😄 I spent half of my teen years writing poems about rejection, death and not belonging. Sometimes I still struggle with those thoughts, I just have much more to live for now and I actually do see evidence from time to time that some people love me and care about me. That was the weirdly good thing about when I got cancer. Seeing the way people came out of the woodwork to help me was pretty amazing. 

Truly, though, when I met dh and his family, in some ways his mom was a model to me of how things could be better. Actually, in many ways. I modeled my parenting largely off of my MIL. I owe her a debt of gratitude I cannot repay. 

[HS Mom in NC]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

This is not like that. My mom and my dad dropped hints to me and other sister they might not go because it was near the city, didn’t want to be out in the dark, worried about having to walk, didn’t want to come from that area home late at night. It’s not as though they were, “Oh yes, we’re coming with bells on, cant wait!” And then on the wedding day, BOTH suddenly had an attack of violent illness. They were pussy-footin’ they might not come and then didn’t but only told my other sister, not the MOB sister. 

All of the reasons they hinted they might not go were solveable problems; IMO, if they wanted to go but were worried about those things as legitimate obstacles, discussing it with my sister ahead of time could have solved every problem. I don’t think they wanted solutions because they were making excuses. 

The groom’s granny was there and I swear she’s as old as Methuselah and is less coherent than my mom. 

OK, since you don't want pussy-footing around and prefer something straightforward: 

1.  Elderly people get suddenly ill whether they have a history of being straightforward and direct or sneaky and manipulative.  So anytime a person in the last chapter of life makes an unusual complaint, it should be responded to seriously.  This is the time of life to watch carefully foe indications of decline.

2. Elderly people have declining mental, physical, and emotional energy levels.  Sometimes suddenly, sometimes gradually. When an elderly person doesn't want to overcome obstacles to get to a big event with complex family dynamics, they should be respected and supported, not criticized. Problem solving isn't something elderly people do well. It's very common. What kind of resources are you and your siblings accessing to make yourselves familiar with these kinds of elder care issues?  They get more challenging as things progress and I think everyone involved needs to have much more realistic expectations.

3. When someone who has a history of being indirect and non-confrontational drops that many hints that they might not attend something, it should be interpreted that they're not going to attend the event. Everyone who knows them knows that's what's going on, right? It's their convoluted way of telling you no. Whoever they drop hints to is obligated to discreetly pass it on to anyone who needs to know to keep the event going as smoothly as possible because indirect people aren't likely to directly tell everyone who needs to know.  That's not who they are or how they operate.

4. If someone has a history of conflict about/with/related to another family member and they choose not to go to a family event to avoid that conflict, it should be respected.  It's better to not attend than run the risk of causing drama at the event.

5. It doesn't matter what other people, like the groom's Granny, were doing.  Individuals decide for themselves if they're going to attend a wedding or not for whatever reasons.  People are allowed to not want to go to a relative's wedding.  So much of wedding madness is rooted in an unhealthy compulsion to keep up with what other people are doing.

6. It's just a wedding. This is not a medieval political marriage involving the merging of 2 kingdoms entities for Geo-political purposes, where if the king doesn't attend his daughter's ceremony the other king is insulted, pulls out of the treaty, and the fate of nations is war.   Granny and Gramps chose not to attend for whatever legitimate or illegitimate reasons they don't have to explain. That really sucks.  The bride can have a few minutes of disappointment and then get on with her joyous day. Same with the rest of the relatives.

7. It's over.  Don't spend any more emotional energy on it because it isn't going to change.  Expect them to be increasingly difficult in these and other ways as they age and continue to deteriorate.  Don't take anything personally even if it was meant personally. Don't go back into the past with all the history of how they've made if hard for their relatives.  People who get over things are not people who spend a lot of time thinking about the negative stuff from the past.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

OK, since you don't want pussy-footing around and prefer something straightforward: 

1.  Elderly people get suddenly ill whether they have a history of being straightforward and direct or sneaky and manipulative.  So anytime a person in the last chapter of life makes an unusual complaint, it should be responded to seriously.  This is the time of life to watch carefully foe indications of decline.

2. Elderly people have declining mental, physical, and emotional energy levels.  Sometimes suddenly, sometimes gradually. When an elderly person doesn't want to overcome obstacles to get to a big event with complex family dynamics, they should be respected and supported, not criticized. Problem solving isn't something elderly people do well. It's very common. What kind of resources are you and your siblings accessing to make yourselves familiar with these kinds of elder care issues?  They get more challenging as things progress and I think everyone involved needs to have much more realistic expectations.

3. When someone who has a history of being indirect and non-confrontational drops that many hints that they might not attend something, it should be interpreted that they're not going to attend the event. Everyone who knows them knows that's what's going on, right? It's their convoluted way of telling you no. Whoever they drop hints to is obligated to discreetly pass it on to anyone who needs to know to keep the event going as smoothly as possible because indirect people aren't likely to directly tell everyone who needs to know.  That's not who they are or how they operate.

4. If someone has a history of conflict about/with/related to another family member and they choose not to go to a family event to avoid that conflict, it should be respected.  It's better to not attend than run the risk of causing drama at the event.

5. It doesn't matter what other people, like the groom's Granny, were doing.  Individuals decide for themselves if they're going to attend a wedding or not for whatever reasons.  People are allowed to not want to go to a relative's wedding.  So much of wedding madness is rooted in an unhealthy compulsion to keep up with what other people are doing.

6. It's just a wedding. This is not a medieval political marriage involving the merging of 2 kingdoms entities for Geo-political purposes, where if the king doesn't attend his daughter's ceremony the other king is insulted, pulls out of the treaty, and the fate of nations is war.   Granny and Gramps chose not to attend for whatever legitimate or illegitimate reasons they don't have to explain. That really sucks.  The bride can have a few minutes of disappointment and then get on with her joyous day. Same with the rest of the relatives.

7. It's over.  Don't spend any more emotional energy on it because it isn't going to change.  Expect them to be increasingly difficult in these and other ways as they age and continue to deteriorate.  Don't take anything personally even if it was meant personally. Don't go back into the past with all the history of how they've made if hard for their relatives.  People who get over things are not people who spend a lot of time thinking about the negative stuff from the past.

Wow, you speak with quite a lot of authority for someone not involved! 

Your 1st and 2nd points seem to assume none of us knows much about elder care. I do not think that is the case, particularly for me, because I have been down the road of decline with my MIL. I would say it is one reason I give my folks a pass more than my sister does, as I said in the first few posts. 

On your point 3, I disagree. I think one of the most unhealthy dynamics in screwed up families like mine is triangulation. Mom tells this sister, who tells this sister and then that sister tells me (not mom) how upset she is...that is no good and it’s crazy-making. You RSVP for your grandkids wedding. You don’t tell the grapevine and hope word gets around in time. Also, even though they are and always have been avoiders, it did not enter my head they would RSVP in the negative by hinting to me and the other sister. They have not missed other weddings, even this bride’s older sibling for which they had to travel 130 miles one way. It did not occur to me they would hint around and then just not come to see their granddaughter get married. 

On point 4, they don’t have a history of conflict with the grandkid they don’t understand. They are avoiders. They never have said one word about the kid openly. I mean, I guess it’s nice they haven’t ever opened up the Bible and started preaching to the kid, but their issues with the kid are beneath the surface. They don’t say Hi to him if they walk in the room, though they say “Hi, everyone” to the room he is in. I have never heard them use the child’s new gender-neutral name. They just don’t refer to the child at all. I think the request to stop Xmas gifts also had something to do with this. My mom doesn’t want to write the new name or use those pronouns or focus on figuring out a gift that is not “girlie”. 

Your 5th and 6th points - yes, people can not go to a wedding. ITA. But there’s no two ways about the way they did this - it was crappy. If, a few weeks prior, mom had said to my sister, or the bride or sister’s husband, “I’m sorry, but we don’t feel up to it. It’s just too much rigamarole for us in our current health,” that would have been a mature way to handle it. There is every chance my sister would still have been mad they didn’t make the effort, but that is the way to do it. But by trying to duck out they made it worse. 

On your last point, we talk about things here, right? That’s what I’m doing. I’m processing the thing and I’m listening to what others say. It’s not really “over,” though, because it impacts holidays. There was more said in The Big Fight that directly relates to the holidays, so it’s not over. And it’s also not over because my sister’s kid is not going to suddenly go back to being a girl. 

Admittedly, there is a part of me that wants to help this repair because time is short and I don’t want my sis to be left with certain emotions if my mom dies sooner. Realistically, I know I cannot fix it. But that’s part of what I’m processing here. 

[Murphy101]

20 hours ago, Quill said:

This is what I have kind of tried to do; I tell her she is totally right to be hurt, I would be too, I agree with her perception of the “reasons”, etc. But I have also said, “you know I don’t even think mom knows what she’s saying half the time.” And I have also said to the effect of, “I doubt we have many more years to be bothered by my mom’s bad decisions.” She’s just so hurt. She feels her kid is rejected by my parents and that it pre-dates the wedding by several years. She also thinks my daughter is held up as “the golden grandchild”, which, probably valid there. Sis acknowledges I don’t have any control over the golden child thing but it still upsets her to think her kids - ALL of them - are being spurned because of the one child. 

If she has reached a point of cutting ties with her parents, there’s not much you can do and it may not matter how close to death your parents are. People think that the elderly/dying get forgiven everything simply bc they are dying but the truth is that’s usually not how it goes ime. It sounds like your parents and sister have had a rough relationship long before your parents started to decline.  And that isn’t likely to miraculously be wiped clear in their old age unless they decide to make reparations.  If your sister feels she’s always giving a pass and has reached her limit, again, not much you can do about it.

It sounds bizarre to me to ostracize an adult because of things a related grown adult is doing, but then again if your parents didn’t think they could be civil then they shouldn’t have gone.  And not being open and honest is a problem.

I think you should plan to spend holidays with your parents separate from holidays spent with your sister.  And I disagree about taking sides. If you agree with her, say so and explain you just can’t bring yourself to cut ties with your parents though.  If the parents genuinely aren’t mentally stable, there’s no point arguing with them. If not, I’d tell them my POV and leave it at that bc it’s between them and sister.

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, katilac said:

What makes me so crazy about this is that I only ever see it in regards to what some view as sexual sin. Unwed pregnancy, living together without marriage, and most of all, being gay/queer/trans. Other sins get a pass, at least to the extent of being willing to talk to the person in passing. I never see or hear about people refusing to engage in basic, minimal social conventions because someone is selfish or slothful or gluttonous or dishonest. 

I think it's because it's easy to "other" those persons - and not so easy to other the selfish, slothful and gluttons, because most people cannot rightfully say they have nothing of that inside themselves. But hey, they can feel very self-righteous about the fact that they happen to be straight or cis.

Edited October 29, 2019 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Quill, I am so sorry for your sister. A close friend of mine has a similar situation between their mother and their trans child, and it has caused a painful rift. I do not consider being elderly and infirm an excuse for ostracizing a grandchild. 

I think for the holiday planning, you should plan to get together separately with your parents and with your sister. Or skip the family holiday altogether and do your own thing. You cannot change you parents' attitude. But you can avoid a painful confrontation. It makes no sense to consider a family holiday celebration if your parents shun one of the family members present. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by regentrude

[Frances]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

I think it's because it's easy to "other" those persons - and not so easy to other the selfish, slothful and gluttons, because most people cannot rightfully say they have nothing of that inside themselves. But hey, they can feel very self-righteous about the fact that they happen to be straight or cis.

Exactly. Scapegoating is as old as time.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, StellaM said:

It is, but unfortunately I haven't noticed self-identified 'cis' people being immune from this very human failing.

I do not understand your comment. Stella. The above was exactly my point, wasn't it?

[Murphy101]

5 hours ago, katilac said:

What makes me so crazy about this is that I only ever see it in regards to what some view as sexual sin. Unwed pregnancy, living together without marriage, and most of all, being gay/queer/trans. Other sins get a pass, at least to the extent of being willing to talk to the person in passing. I never see or hear about people refusing to engage in basic, minimal social conventions because someone is selfish or slothful or gluttonous or dishonest. 

One, not all sins are equal. 

Two, if it matters, I’ve cut ties with my FOO for numerous sins not related to sex.  Go figure all of the capital sins also make people act in ways that damage relationships.

Three, this is weird bc the actual people the wedding was for are not the ones being shunned if I understand correct. If I started avoiding people based on the sins of their extended family - geez, we’d all have to live in isolation. 

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Sigh.

Love your poetry, hate the argument which will follow any explanation.

It's my experience that people who use words like 'cis', who broadly impose it, if you like, on others who may not have any such inner or indeed any gender identity, have a tendency to indulge in the scapegoating of anyone who objects. 

There is enough hurt in this family to go around. Hurt and confusion isn't a pie. The grandparents are not cartoon villians for failing to come to terms with someothing they find difficult or impossible to come to terms with. Quill's sister's child isn't a villian for feeling hurt. Quill's sister isn't a villian for being angry. Quill isn't a villian. The cousins aren't villians. Nobody here is a villian, nobody here needs to be written off as exhibiting 'cis self-righteousness'. All these people are just humans. Quill's sister is human, Quill's niece is human, Quill's parents are human.

My comment that you quoted was not directed at Quill's situation (to which I have responded in a separate post), but responded katilac's more general observation that sexual sin seems to be treated much more harshly than other types of sin. My observations agree with hers, and I stand by my explanation that it is easier for people to distance themselves from things they are convicned could never happen to them, rather than from behaviors they, if they are honest, can detect in themselves. That was my whole point, and I think human nature would support that. (This argument functions just fine without using terms like "cis". The othering of people for sexual sins is centuries old and predates the modern concepts of gender identity.)

ETA: The mechanism works in other areas too - whenever people are under the illusion they control the "desirable" aspect in themselves, it is easier for them to judge people who possess the "undesirable" aspect.

Edited October 29, 2019 by regentrude

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

OK, as a general comment, sure. Some people like to see sin in sexual matters.

This isn't a sexual matter, so I'm not sure what it has to do with Quill's situation.  "Gender' doesn't have anything to do with sexuality or sexual orientation. It seems kind of irrelevant to even bring it up. So far as I understand, this was a bog standard heterosexual wedding; clearly, the grandparents did not fail to attend because they were judging a sexual sin (or maybe they were and the bride and groom lived in sin, idk. I just object to the lazy rhetoric around 'cis')

I am fully aware of the bolded. However, in my experience, many people are not, especially not people who strongly object to both homosexuality and transgender identity. I have often seen both thrown into the same pot, so to speak. I took katilac's comment to refer to that group, so did not consider it irrelevant. But you are right, this is a tangent not directly related to Quill's situation. (which is how conversations tend to go, IRL or online.)

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by regentrude

[katilac]

9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

This isn't a sexual matter, so I'm not sure what it has to do with Quill's situation.  "Gender' doesn't have anything to do with sexuality or sexual orientation. It seems kind of irrelevant to even bring it up. 

 

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am fully aware of the bolded. However, in my experience, many people are not, especially not people who strongly object to both homosexuality and transgender identity. I have often seen both thrown into the same pot, so to speak. I took katilac's comment to refer to that group, so did not consider it irrelevant.  

 

Yes, that is what I meant. ime, both homesexual and transgender identity are regarded as sexual sin by a wide swath of believers. It is not irrelevant bc it is the belief such people are acting upon. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I've not met a single person who believes this, and that includes conservative people.  I think this is something said in order to conflate the two.

Anyhow, none of this is remotely helpful to Quill.

Gender/sexual identity are both sexual sins. This is exactly what the Evangelical members of my family believe. It may not be helpful to Quill as I am sure she is well aware of the conflation of the two. This view is pervasive.

[maize]

From an anthropological viewpoint:

Sexual behavior is circumscribed by taboos in most human societies. That is a human norm.

We happen to live in a society that has both heterogenous and rapidly evolving social norms. Treating people who embrace more traditional sexual taboos as somehow deficient/deserving of condemnation seems to me to be merely an expression of a competing sort of taboo that seeks to exclude from approved society people who don't embrace the currently ascendant norms of one's own social in-group.

Odd groupish creatures we humans are.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Interesting. Many peiople in other traditions see gender reassignment as preferable to homosexuality, as transitioning 'fixes' the same sex attraction (it doesn't, but it can be perceived to be).

Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate that.

I guess what posters meant to say, in that case, is that some people, (regardless of whether they are dysphoric or do not have sex-dysphoria), in Evangelical Christian traditions, see gender reassignment as a sexual sin, as they believe that women and girls are meant to have an innate feminine identity, and that men and boys are meant to have an innate masculine identity. That makes MUCH more sense! and now I can see how it applies to Quill's situation. 

I don't know any Evangelical conservatives, mostly secular or other denomination conservatives, so that explains the gap in understanding.

Not really. I typically hear Evangelicals say that ‘God doesn’t make mistakes’ when handing out genitalia. Deliberately rejecting that gift/God’s will and selecting ones own gender is hubristic and sinful regardless of whether there is any sexual activity.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, maize said:

From an anthropological viewpoint:

Sexual behavior is circumscribed by taboos in most human societies. That is a human norm.

We happen to live in a society that has both heterogenous and rapidly evolving social norms. Treating people who embrace more traditional sexual taboos as somehow deficient/deserving of condemnation seems to me to be merely an expression of a competing sort of taboo that seeks to exclude from approved society people who don't embrace the currently ascendant norms of one's own social in-group.

Odd groupish creatures we humans are.

This really isn’t about the grandparents. The wedding was about the couple, neither of whom were offensive to the grandparents. The inability to tolerate someone different in the same space as you to JOINTLY celebrate someone else’s special day strikes me as incredibly sad. It was/is their loss. The grandparents made this other grandchild a victim in their proxy war.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Farrar]

I'm sorry you're going through this, Quill. In reading the thread, the thing that resonated for me was that you should really prioritize preserving your relationship with your siblings. I'm not saying ditch your parents by any means, but whatever holiday solution is right would be one that maintains those relationships - because they're going to last a lot longer and if I'm understanding, then it seems like you're going to get more out of them. Obviously no one is perfect and your sister may not have made the best decisions in terms of staying on good terms with them, but it strikes me that your parents probably can't fully be satisfied no matter what you do, something you've acknowledged and are willing to live with. So don't try. Put their desires last if they can't ever be satisfied anyway.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

I guess what posters meant to say, in that case, is that some people in Evangelical Christian traditions, see gender reassignment as sin against God's plan, as they believe that women and girls are meant to have an innate feminine identity, and that men and boys are meant to have an innate masculine identity, and to trangress goes against God's desires. That makes MUCH more sense! and now I can see how it applies to Quill's situation

Exactly. God “knit you together in your mother’s womb” and before you were born, you were known and designed by God to be exactly who and what you are, in the Evangelical view. Ergo, to reject that God designed you as feminine is, at minimum, baffling, but more commonly viewed as a sin. 

[LMD]

I'm sorry for the difficult situation in your family atm Quill. I agree with whichever posters said that pressuring (not purposely, I'm sure!) your sister to just make peace for the holidays will backfire. Whatever your kind intentions, no matter how careful your wording, the wound is too raw and this will likely read as dismissive of her hurt and siding with your parents.

I'm no contact with our mother, and my sister is somewhat estranged with our father. We kind of have opposite relationships with each parent 😄  how this works in real life is, I do not talk about our mother or ask about her - nor do I get upset if sister talks about her. Sister invites me to events, lets me know if mother will be there, and doesn't take my answer personally. We tend to do big holidays with our respective in-laws and the contact parent tagging along if possible (ie, our mother goes along to my sister's in-laws Christmas lunch) and then catch up separately. But, we are quite a way out from the original hurt and I know that it was tough on my sister, I know she felt immense pressure to fix things.

I guess I'd just advise to let your sister have her space and her feelings. Don't try to fix things. Make peace with the fact that this holiday season will not be what you hoped it would and try to see the joy in the options you do have. Maybe this is a good year to start a new tradition with your sister's family?

[HS Mom in NC]

17 hours ago, Quill said:

Wow, you speak with quite a lot of authority for someone not involved! 

Your 1st and 2nd points seem to assume none of us knows much about elder care. I do not think that is the case, particularly for me, because I have been down the road of decline with my MIL. I would say it is one reason I give my folks a pass more than my sister does, as I said in the first few posts. 

On your point 3, I disagree. I think one of the most unhealthy dynamics in screwed up families like mine is triangulation. Mom tells this sister, who tells this sister and then that sister tells me (not mom) how upset she is...that is no good and it’s crazy-making. You RSVP for your grandkids wedding. You don’t tell the grapevine and hope word gets around in time. Also, even though they are and always have been avoiders, it did not enter my head they would RSVP in the negative by hinting to me and the other sister. They have not missed other weddings, even this bride’s older sibling for which they had to travel 130 miles one way. It did not occur to me they would hint around and then just not come to see their granddaughter get married. 

On point 4, they don’t have a history of conflict with the grandkid they don’t understand. They are avoiders. They never have said one word about the kid openly. I mean, I guess it’s nice they haven’t ever opened up the Bible and started preaching to the kid, but their issues with the kid are beneath the surface. They don’t say Hi to him if they walk in the room, though they say “Hi, everyone” to the room he is in. I have never heard them use the child’s new gender-neutral name. They just don’t refer to the child at all. I think the request to stop Xmas gifts also had something to do with this. My mom doesn’t want to write the new name or use those pronouns or focus on figuring out a gift that is not “girlie”. 

Your 5th and 6th points - yes, people can not go to a wedding. ITA. But there’s no two ways about the way they did this - it was crappy. If, a few weeks prior, mom had said to my sister, or the bride or sister’s husband, “I’m sorry, but we don’t feel up to it. It’s just too much rigamarole for us in our current health,” that would have been a mature way to handle it. There is every chance my sister would still have been mad they didn’t make the effort, but that is the way to do it. But by trying to duck out they made it worse. 

On your last point, we talk about things here, right? That’s what I’m doing. I’m processing the thing and I’m listening to what others say. It’s not really “over,” though, because it impacts holidays. There was more said in The Big Fight that directly relates to the holidays, so it’s not over. And it’s also not over because my sister’s kid is not going to suddenly go back to being a girl. 

Admittedly, there is a part of me that wants to help this repair because time is short and I don’t want my sis to be left with certain emotions if my mom dies sooner. Realistically, I know I cannot fix it. But that’s part of what I’m processing here. 

The most common thing I hear and have experienced with elder care  is that after the elders die, the caregivers say they didn't recognize the decline as it was beginning.  With later perspective, people see that the decline started earlier than they recognized at the time, but they wrote it off as annoying personality traits in the elder or as general old people behavior.  This tends to happen with people with more emotional baggage in their elder relationships.

You're stuck on should, (which is idealistic) and I'm suggesting you move to is (which is realistic.)  Abandon idealism and its righteous indignation embrace cold, hard realism with it's resignation and fatalism. Yes, they should've done things differently than they have, assuming they're cognitively normal (odds are they are not cognitively normal at this time) but the fact is that they haven't and won't.  You say you're realistic about them and sister isn't, but I would say you're not as realistic as you think you are or need to be at this stage of your parents' lives.  You don't talk about their behavior like someone who has very realistic expectations of declining elderly people. What they say isn't reliable and should never be taken at face value because they're famously avoidant.  That will likely increase as they age because a person's personality is typically amplified in old age.   Therefore, you should never expect their behavior to match their words.  (This is true of avoidant people in general-you can't ever really trust what they say.)

Some elderly people have personality changes for the worse due to mental decline, not just amplification of their younger selves. You and your siblings should expect and emotionally prepare yourselves for their behavior to be all over the map.  Elders in decline are wildcards. Changes can happen quickly. When you change your thinking about a situation, you feelings will follow. Let me repeat that: When you change your thinking (expectations, assumptions, desired behavior of others) your feelings will follow. When you understand that cognitive and physical decline in old age has this affect on people, you no longer take their behavior personally, you no longer have high or even moderate expectations of them, and you no longer expect them to behave today and in the future as they behaved yesterday or earlier.  Things change rapidly for some elderly people. It's to be expected. Accepting it brings peace.  You don't have peace now, but you could by changing your thinking.

Again, what an elderly person was willing to do outside the home in the past is not an accurate indicator of what they're willing to do now and in the future.  That drops off. Sometimes steadily, sometimes suddenly.  Everyone involved with the elderly  should expect all forms of outings, even ones near and dear to their own hearts,  to drop off and then come to a full stop.  Elderly people's processing slows down and breaks down, and that creates confusion and overwhelm which can result in different reactions in different individuals: for my FIL it results in embarrassment and angry shouting scenes, for my grandmother is was anxiety and fear, for my grandfather it was depression and quiet sadness, for my husband's grandmother it was depression and despondency/detachment, for my husband's grandfather it was chronic irritability and overreactions.  It's no wonder that people in that situation would be less inclined to go to big events full of overwhelming stimulation. No, they don't want other people to make arrangements to get them there, they want to avoid those situations because they can't function normally in them and they all know it on some level. They're also far less physically energetic.  Travel and large social events are so much more draining for them than for middle aged people.  Compassion and accommodation for their increasing limitations is necessary.  People dealing with elderly need to be constantly aware of these things, not angry with them over things they can't control. They wish they weren't like this too.

The thing is, it's all too late now. I'm sorry for your loss of that.  It was time to address the family dynamics issues with them when they were physically younger in middle age, when their brains and bodies were functioning normally. You're experiencing a common phenomenon of adult children caring for elderly relatives: the straw breaking the camel's back.  All the cognitive and physical decline are creating issues that are bringing all these underlying family dynamics issues up. Because they weren't addressed before the decline and time is running out before they die, there's an urgency that can't be ignored anymore.  But it's too late. You aren't going to get satisfaction in any way in regards to that relationship. It's going to remain unresolved. I'm sorry for your loss of that.  It's going to get much harder. They're never going to be or do what you think they should and accepting it is hard. They were avoidant before the decline and they're going to be even more avoidant now.

Reliving your frustrations with them in detail here isn't productive for you or them now.  Focusing on processing your feelings about the past shouldn't be your priority-that's usually best for after they're deceased because it cannot be resolved while they're alive, it can only be accepted for the unchangeable mess it is.  Right now you and your siblings need to focus your precious, finite emotional and mental energy on the marathon of elder care. Get very familiar with a range of eldercare challenges and how caregivers deal with them.  Learn to adapt to what could be rapid changes.  Find support  with experienced care givers who can help you in practical ways along the way.  Get your siblings to do the same because they'll need to help. Create mental and emotional  margin in your life because you will need it if they don't die suddenly soon.  Don't underestimate how critically important it is in this situation to clarify what's most important and drop what isn't, especially emotionally.  Elder care is an incredible demand and no one has unlimited emotional resources.  Spend you mental and emotional energy on what is going to get you through this trial, then when it's over, you'll have mental and emotional space to deal with anything you had to put aside.  It can all get processed and dealt with, but not all at once.

[shawthorne44]

Well, elder care will only be Quill's problem if she volunteers for it. 
 

[Guest]

@Homeschool Mom in AZ, I appreciate that you’re trying to help. You’re not, though. 

I know I’m not going to change them, and I couldn’t have done it ten years or twelve years or fifteen years ago, either. I realized when my daughter died they were incapable of being the kind of parents and grandparents I wished they would be. I grieved it; it wasn’t a fun time in my life. For the most part, I let it go. 

Quote

Reliving your frustrations with them in detail here isn't productive for you or them now.  Focusing on processing your feelings about the past shouldn't be your priority-that's usually best for after they're deceased because it cannot be resolved while they're alive, it can only be accepted for the unchangeable mess it is.  Right now you and your siblings need to focus your precious, finite emotional and mental energy on the marathon of elder care.

I find this part of your post offensive. How do you know what’s productive for me or when the best time for that would be? I like discussing things on this community; it helps me weigh what I think about things and relieves some of the stress of these situations. That’s why I have been on here for ten years and have put up 80 zillion posts. 

Look, I don’t have a plan for how things are going to go with my siblings and my folks. I will figure it out as it happens. My family has been very dysfunctional my whole life. I don’t know how it’s going to go. I’m sure it won’t be the last tense post I ever put up here about my FOO. But I do find it productive! 

[shawthorne44]

I have a theory that this sort of thing can be like group therapy.   So, I can see why discussing things can be helpful.  

[catz]

Well I don't think elder care by your offspring is a right.  It's a gift.  I think it's good to know what your limits and what your siblings are in terms of helping parents in their elder years.  Sibling relationships can play into this and how well everyone works together and how important fostering those sibling relationships are to you.  I personally know none of our parents can move in with us.  That cannot work for many reasons.  We don't have financial resources to help them either.  Emotionally being there is what we can swing.

The thing is the road this sister is walking is not necessarily an easy road as a parent either.  I have friends walking that road and it's continuously exhausting for them and can feel very isolating.  If she just feels completely alienated and misunderstood, she may want to just walk away from the whole lot.  So I do see the merits in fostering those relationships.  

I also think Quill (or people in general) can process this incident and be irritated and frustrated by the dynamics without feeling 100% empathy toward her aging parents who sound like they haven't necessarily been loving or supportive possibly ever.  Feelings don't stop happening just because people are aging.  She's under no obligation to anything in particular when it comes to elder care.  I know people who've had to call senior social services on their parents and walk away for various reasons.  There's a range between full time caregiver to wiping your hands of it entirely and everything in between.  Everyone gets to choose their own path in that regard.  Venting and opening discussions about sticky family situations happens all the time here.  

[maize]

37 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

That's what I was trying to say, and doing so badly, in constrast to this more succint and direct comment.

 

 

 

It was inspired by your post :)

 

Quill, you have my best wishes for navigating your family complexities with as little drama as possible under the circumstances. 

[catz]

Just now, StellaM said:

 

Lol, yes, I know. Been walking it myself for the last 3+ years.

Doesn't absolve me of responsibility to my sibs. 

My concern is not particularly for the parents, but for the sibling who (may) get left holding the can. 

 

Meh - I don't feel like I have any responsibility to my sibling who I don't have a great relationship with.  I have an ok working relationship with him because I have a reasonably good relationship with my mother.  So it exists for her sake.  It isn't likely to sustain after she dies, or at least I won't be working at it.  I do feel much stronger responsibility for my own offspring.  People reap what they sow when it comes to relationships with adult offspring and siblings. 

And I don't think people take a harsh line toward the elderly on this board.  I think it's fair to have a good sense of abilities and boundaries.  Not everyone can be a full time caregiver.  Having had a parent die, it's a lot just walking toward death, emotionally supporting a grieving parent and helping them walk that road administratively.  When you have other duties and obligation (work, kids, in laws who may be aging, their own health issues, etc) it may not be possible to drop everything to be a caregiver.  Any of us could get hit by a bus tomorrow so I don't consider my relationships and obligations to my oldest loved ones as deeper than any others.  

[LMD]

23 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Lol, yes, I know. Been walking it myself for the last 3+ years.

Doesn't absolve me of responsibility to my sibs. 

My concern is not particularly for the parents, but for the sibling who (may) get left holding the can, particularly if they don't feel OK about shoving the problem off onto the taxpayer.

 

If sister is a decent sort, who keeps a decent relationship with quill, I'm quite sure she wouldn't see quill struggling under the burden of solo elder care and simply shrug that her hurt is more important.

I wouldn't do that to my sister. I wouldn't leave my no contact mother on the streets. Nor would I throw my kids and dh under the emotionally abusive bus for either of them. Exactly what that will look like, I don't know yet. I can't see my sister suddenly taking on the care of our father either, I guess we worked it out well to have a parent each to deal with! 😄

Quill should be able to set her own boundaries regarding how much care she can handle, and she should be able to be honest with her sister when she needs help. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

 

I find this part of your post offensive. How do you know what’s productive for me or when the best time for that would be? I like discussing things on this community; it helps me weigh what I think about things and relieves some of the stress of these situations. That’s why I have been on here for ten years and have put up 80 zillion posts. 

Look, I don’t have a plan for how things are going to go with my siblings and my folks. I will figure it out as it happens. My family has been very dysfunctional my whole life. I don’t know how it’s going to go. I’m sure it won’t be the last tense post I ever put up here about my FOO. But I do find it productive! 

Me too Quill.  I think there is a belief of some on this board that if we ask for thoughts and then disagree with the advice that we are just wasting everyone’s time.  No really we aren’t.  Some of my feelings and beliefs have been solidified in my mind when I have had to defend them to others.  

[Scarlett]

58 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Yes, I know this board takes a very harsh line towards the elderly. 

And that's from someone who suffered physical, verbal and emotional abuse in the home by a parent - and even I find the harshness here out of whack.

Different cultures, I guess.

 

 

 

Yes, different cultures.  I must be from yours.  I talked to my BIL just recently about his decision to cut his mother completely off.  It was like one day he was just done.  He has no interest in ever seeing her again.  He doesn’t even really seem to hate her.....just says she isn’t maternal.  Which she isn’t.  But doesn’t change the fact that she is his mother and that his brother ( my xh) has taken on the total care of her....and even now their older brother.  The no contact BIL is retired and will do nothing to help.  I find it so so weird.  And he is what I would call the golden child in his mother’s eyes.