Mental Load

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

OMG, she told him THREE FREAKING TIMES, absolutely explicitly, that she did. not. care. what he ordered, she just wanted him to take care of it without asking her, and he still asked her to repeat it a 4th time! And you are trying to reframe this as if her request was incredibly unclear and ambiguous and any normal person would of course ask their partner who was lying in a bathtub in serious pain after surgery to repeat the exact same thing FOUR TIMES, because otherwise he could not possibly have guessed that she really meant *exactly* what she said the first, second, or third time. This is not mind reading! This is basic, kindergarten-level listening skills! 

He asked her 2x and the third time was to confirm she was OK with him ordering pizza.  She did not need to do anything extra beyond saying "I don't care."

I don't see what being in the bathtub has to do with it, but whatever.  "I don't care" is not that hard to say even if it's 3 times.  Sometimes you have to say things multiple times to convince the person you mean it.  Especially when a woman says "I don't care" which often means "I do care and your ass is grass."

Really people are making a mountain out of a molehill.  The guy was a little hard to convince that she really did not care (supposedly).  Big deal.  The world would be an immensely happier place if he'd just held off on asking that 2nd or 3rd time.  Her butt would feel better and her healing would be faster.  If you say so.

[TCB]

22 hours ago, StellaM said:

I am nervous about nothing. About the only thing dh did that I didn't, before he got sick, was take out the bins. I worked that out pretty quick.

This thread kind of sucks in that other women are denying that anyone ever experiences an unfair mental load, and that if they do, it's their own fault.

 

 

This is exactly what I get from some of the women on this thread too. You've said exactly what I was thinking but couldn't quite put into words. Some of us maybe aren't such paragons of virtue as some of you and maybe we had the misfortune of marrying someone who is less than great, or has become less than great. It might be nice for some of you to maybe just think to yourselves that you don't get it.We're not all the same and we didn't all marry the same type of person. Maybe it seems strange to you because you just aren't living that kind of life. Be thankful and maybe be compassionate.

[Corraleno]

46 minutes ago, SKL said:

Not agreeing that anyone said anything similar to the above.

But in that scenario, the wife was asking the husband to hire someone to do part of her job.  That would be like the husband asking the wife to hire him a secretary at work.  It isn't a terrible thing to ask, but it would have been better for her if she'd done that herself (because the result would be more appropriate to what she wanted), and asked her husband for something more suited to his role in their partnership.  Like next year, if I were her, I would set up the maid service myself and have them come for enough time that it compensated for my time of hiring them, plus gave me some relief beyond that.  And I'd ask dh for a nice book or movie to enjoy with my extra relaxation time.

No, an appropriate analogy would be if he said "I know I usually do all the landscaping and lawn care, but for my Father's Day present I would love for you to hire a landscaper to come and do the backyard so I can kick back and relax that day without worrying about." And then she waited till the last minute and told him "Well, the one company I called was too expensive, so I'm going to spend an hour pulling weeds while you watch the kids instead of relaxing, and hey, here's a new tie." And then expected him to be grateful that she bought him a tie and pulled a few weeds while he was stuck watching the kids, even though that is not remotely what he asked for.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[EmseB]

This idea that people should do at home tasks the same way they approach tasks at work is interesting to me.

First of all, I'm not a boss so if I make some kind of request for a gift or help with something, I'm not asking for the it in the same way a boss makes a request of an employee. I would be mortified if my family saw me that way or thought that's what I wanted.

Secondly, I don't know anyone who runs their house like a workplace, as if the manager with the mental load is the same as a ceo expecting professionalism and results from everyone on time and on budget and anyone cintributing should do so with a level of professionalism. Our home takes management, but it's also where the family (including me!) comes for comfort, relaxation, and leisure.

I guess if you operate your home that way then more power to you, but I don't know many people that do. I don't and never have expected that from myself in home management. I have way more leeway with tasks at home than I ever did at work. I can burn dinner, for example, and not fear for my position or a dressing down. I would be stressed out with an unmanageable mental load if I operated at home like I did on the job. Or expected that from anyone else around here.

[EmseB]

24 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

No, an appropriate analogy would be if he said "I know I usually do all the landscaping and lawn care, but for my Father's Day present I would love for you to hire a landscaper to come and do the backyard so I can kick back and relax that day without worrying about." And then she waited till the last minute and told him "Well, the one company I called was too expensive, so I'm going to spend an hour pulling weeds while you watch the kids instead of relaxing, and hey, here's a new tie." And then expected him to be grateful that she bought him a tie and pulled a few weeds while he was stuck watching the kids, even though that is not remotely what he asked for.

And I would be crushed if on my end I thought, "There's no way we can afford this. I will go out and do the work myself. I know it probably won't be as good as a professional, but hopefully it will take this off his plate for a little bit."

His response?

You didn't even really try to find an affordable service, now I still have to watch the kids while you're out in the yard, probably not even doing as good a job as I could have done myself and I don't get any time to relax. What, you pulled a few weeds, ran the mower, and got me a tie I didn't even want? And you want me to *thank* you? Either you're really dumb or you just don't care about what I want.

 

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, EmseB said:

This idea that people should do at home tasks the same way they approach tasks at work is interesting to me.

First of all, I'm not a boss so if I make some kind of request for a gift or help with something, I'm not asking for the it in the same way a boss makes a request of an employee. I would be mortified if my family saw me that way or thought that's what I wanted.

Secondly, I don't know anyone who runs their house like a workplace, as if the manager with the mental load is the same as a ceo expecting professionalism and results from everyone on time and on budget and anyone cintributing should do so with a level of professionalism. Our home takes management, but it's also where the family (including me!) comes for comfort, relaxation, and leisure.

I guess if you operate your home that way then more power to you, but I don't know many people that do. I don't and never have expected that from myself in home management. I have way more leeway with tasks at home than I ever did at work. I can burn dinner, for example, and not fear for my position or a dressing down. I would be stressed out with an unmanageable mental load if I operated at home like I did on the job. Or expected that from anyone else around here.

You're missing my point, which is that a man who is capable of handling the task to hire someone for a specific job at work is equally capable of doing the same thing at home. If his attitude is that giving his wife the present she asked for is too much trouble, then he should admit upfront that he just really can't be bothered. He should not pretend that he's going to do it, then make a brief, vague, half-assed attempt and expect to get credit for "doing the best he could." The truth is, he could absolutely have accomplished what she asked him to do, he just couldn't be bothered to do it, and he should own that. He should have told her long before Mother's Day that he had no intention of actually doing that for her, and if she wanted a cleaner she needed to do it herself, because he was just going to go out and buy something whether that's what she wanted or not. 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I agree. I also don’t see much point whining about it. It’s one of the things I’ve come to dislike about blogs, especially Mommy Blogs. There’s so much fruitless belly-aching about reality. 

In my family, I’m the Executive Function manager, married to someone who is...not. He has his things he’s good at, but the details of life management are not among them. I’m certain I still complain about it now and then, but in general, I long ago learned that if XYZ matters to me, I’m going to have to do it. Like - lightbulbs. When lightbulbs burn out, dh does not care. There aren’t many places in the house where a burned-out bulb means no light at all, so the reduced light doesn’t motivate him to change it. He doesn’t care; I do. Therefore, I long ago decided not to get frothed about this but to change it myself or let it the hell go. 

Also, it’s not as though he doesn’t have his pressures I don’t have to think about. When we had to evict a tenant, I didn’t have to go stand in that courtroom and say, “Sorry, Your Honor, but Mr. Tenant is six months in arrears.” Thank God. 

Particularly this blog.  I have issues with this blog

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/mamamia-v-roxane-gay-mia-freedmans-bad-feminism-20170616-gws9yy.html

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entertainment/sydney-confidential/mamamia-freedman-doesnt-pay/news-story/9c5387a956619d5afb23b7ba806ba0dc?sv=708fcde2480e2a14708ed8a9bcb0dc5

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/5741-mamamia-website-audience-growth-trend-june-2014-20140819005

I don’t know anything about this particular author but the blog overall is run by wealthy white people making money out of pretending to raise issues that belong to much less privileged people.  And often that seems to seep through into the writing somehow.  

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

You're missing my point, which is that a man who is capable of handling the task to hire someone for a specific job at work is equally capable of doing the same thing at home. If his attitude is that giving his wife the present she asked for is too much trouble, then he should admit upfront that he just really can't be bothered. He should not pretend that he's going to do it, then make a brief, vague, half-assed attempt and expect to get credit for "doing the best he could." The truth is, he could absolutely have accomplished what she asked him to do, he just couldn't be bothered to do it, and he should own that. He should have told her long before Mother's Day that he had no intention of actually doing that for her, and if she wanted a cleaner she needed to do it herself, because he was just going to go out and buy something whether that's what she wanted or not. 

I have hired a few housecleaners in my day and I personally don't find it that simple for various reasons. The first time I did it, I thought I could call a place and they would come clean my house. Ha! So I was pretty bummed when I ended up having to do it myself because they wanted to see the place, give an estimate, and then schedule a cleaning...and I didn't budget that kind of time. Turns out I was capable and failed with all good intentions! One time, the cleaners I hired just didn't mop the kitchen floor. One time they didn't show up at all. One place we lived, I ended up not hiring anyone bc it was a high col area and ended up being too expensive, as it turned out. But as you say, that's all kind of beside the point. He didn't do what his wife requested and she felt shat on for it.

Here's my point: I grew up getting talked to in exactly the same tone in your posts for the exact same type of mistakes, where I thought I was doing a good job, or, at least adequate, and missed the mark. I wouldn't be able to live with that kind of person as a husband. I would be catatonic as an adult hearing the same criticism, and I'd believe it! Because as you say, these things are so simple an idiot with a mild sense of consideration for others could get it done, so why can't I? It kind of reminds me that episode of the office where the new boss asks Jim for a "simple rundown". 

Your experience seems to lead you to believe the worst, most uncharitable interpretation of what a man did in any given situation where the wife's expectations weren't met. I and others have given possible ideas as to charitable interpretations of the same events. I'm willing to consider there are real heels out there that effectively hate their wives and treat them like crap. I'm also willing to say that one event given no other history or information does not *necessarily* mean the man is a huge ass who just can't be bothered to care. You seem unwilling to consider any other interpretation. It's black or white. And I give my perspective to say that maybe there is a scenario where he isn't malicious or stupid AND dressing down a spouse (or any human person!) in that way is hurtful if in fact they didn't have the worst possible motivation or thoughtlessness in screwing up meal planning or a bday gift or mother's day.

[EmseB]

13 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I'm trying to work out how my standards are apparently sky high, and yet low enough to blame for my own predicament.

 

 

 

Literally no one is saying that. I am saying in most situations, I expect that I am not doing things well, to whatever standard, and I mess things up. So does my DH. If we both went off like the lady in the article everytime that happened or kept track of all that stuff he's not doing when he's obviously at least doing some things, we'd be miserable. Our marriage would suck. It is not a healthy attitude. I am willing to read her tone and say I think she is taking a wrong approach. We may disagree on this point, but:

This says nothing, not one thing, about a situation where a man is abusively negligent to his family to the point of literally doing nothing to help anyone and deliberately sabotages simple tasks to get out of them.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

People with executive function issues who actually care about their partners and don't want to just dump 95-100% of the mental load on them, can make a reasonable effort to mitigate their issues: they can create lists/schedules for recurrent tasks such as cleaning or car maintenance or bill paying or whatever, they can set up autopay for bills, put alarms on their phone, put repeating events like birthdays on digital calendars, etc. If they are asked to take over a task that has not been their responsibility before, they can ask for help setting up a system, up front, to keep them on track. They can acknowledge that the planning and the scheduling and the follow-up are at least as much, if not more, of the work than the actual execution of the task. 

Many people, especially men, do not want to bother with with hassle of setting up systems to mitigate these weaknesses, they would rather just dump the mental load on someone else — and then often expect profuse thanks if they can even be bothered to execute a task that has been assigned to them as long as it's a one-time thing, all the planning has been done, and the steps have been clearly spelled out by someone else. Many men get around this at work by dumping those tasks on a secretary or executive assistant, while others are forced to set up systems, like those listed above, in order to keep their jobs, but they are still unwilling to give their partners the same respect and consideration they give their bosses and coworkers.

The issue isn't that people who are naturally organized and have good executive function skills expect everyone else to be naturally good at the same skills. The issue is expecting that a thoughtful, considerate partner should at least be willing to put systems in place that allow them to help share the burden.

I think though we’re talking about random tasks that a system isn’t going to cover?  And systems and lists and everything else often fail for executive function issues.  They are a starting point but they don’t fix everything.  

[Storygirl]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/well/mind/clutter-stress-procrastination-psychology.html

I think I read this article a month or so ago, when everyone was talking about decluttering. But what I took from it that helped me is not the decluttering bit, but the information about cortisol. Evidently, people who continue to think about tasks constantly have higher levels of cortisol and higher stress responses.

I had been really struggling with the mental burden of tasks at home, and I shared that article with DH. If I remember, I cried, and said, "So, I am not making up these feelings. I thought I was going crazy." Because being at home with the constant visual reminders of everything that I couldn't get done, and having my mind preoccupied constantly with a mental list of everything related to the household and childcare and planning family gatherings was creating very real and paralyzing stress for me.

I have a really great husband. He is always willing to help at home. But I still needed him to help shoulder some things for me, so that I didn't have to THINK about them all of the time, because it was so stressful. He listens and tries to understand, but he doesn't get it, and because he doesn't really get it, he will do tasks, but he doesn't take over the mental load for me.

He doesn't think about his work when he is at home, but my work is constantly in front of me, all of the time. Knowing that there is likely a physical reaction happening during this mental stress was comforting.

Reading articles about the mental load helps me not to feel alone.

I keep reading this thread, but it makes me sad. I am not going to present any examples, because people keep saying that people's examples are poor and that the woman's only problem is wrong thinking or improper expectations. I don't need other people to say that about me.

Because it isn't true.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Storygirl

[EmseB]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I hear that you would be crushed.

I am crushed by my mental load.

I would be crushed if ds grew up to be the kind of husband who did not take on his share of the mental load.

Personally, I have rarely spoken in a harsh way - I attempt politeness - but when it gets to the point that SIX MONTHS ago you asked your spouse to take some of the mental load of looking after a kid who is high needs, and it doesn't happen - when do I get to say, enough! That is wrong, and unfair.

But attempting to do something and doing it poorly (well-intententioned or not) and just not caring to do anything at all are two different scenarios. I'm not talking about being polite when the other person makes it clear they don't care and won't be bothered for years if ever. 

That's not what was in the OP's article and not what I've been speaking to for the last 8 pages. I've caveated that at least once.

[TCB]

18 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

My kids should do great then 🙂

 

Mine too! And you know that might be a little bit of the silver lining I'm looking for lol.

[Corraleno]

39 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think though we’re talking about random tasks that a system isn’t going to cover?  And systems and lists and everything else often fail for executive function issues.  They are a starting point but they don’t fix everything.  

But a person with EF issues can at least take on some of the areas where those things are helpful, to relieve some of the mental burden that is carried by their partner, so the partner is more able to deal with the unusual things that come up without being totally overloaded. If the person with poor EF skills just decides that all their own EF tasks will be transferred to their partner, then the partner's brain is going to be filled to the point of overflowing just with everyday tasks, and there is no room to add more tasks when something out of the ordinary comes up. So that tends to be the point where the person whose brain just cannot take on one. more. thing. goes ballistic and pitches a fit saying "I need help!" And then the partner who has unloaded all his EF tasks onto her looks perplexed and says "well if you needed help, you should have just asked." Arrrrghhhh!

 

30 minutes ago, EmseB said:

But attempting to do something and doing it poorly (well-intententioned or not) and just not caring to do anything at all are two different scenarios. I'm not talking about being polite when the other person makes it clear they don't care and won't be bothered for years if ever. 

That's not what was in the OP's article and not what I've been speaking to for the last 8 pages. I've caveated that at least once.

Here's where I think the disconnect is in this discussion: the people who are siding with the husband are saying "well he tried to do what she wanted, he did his best, she's being way too picky because he did the thing even if he didn't do it exactly the way she wanted." And others of us are saying exactly what the wives in those scenarios are saying: doing the thing is not the main part of the job — it's the thinking and planning and managing the doing of the thing that is the bulk of the work. And those are the parts the guys didn't do.

Both of the husbands in the above examples seem completely oblivious to the fact that making a 90 second phone call and scrubbing a toilet were not the things they were asked to do. Taking over the mental burden of figuring out dinner and hiring a cleaning service were the things they were asked to do. The wives were understandably frustrated that their husbands do not seem to comprehend this, and the posters in this thread who deal with exactly these scenarios every single day are frustrated that other women do not seem to get it either.

I suspect that a lot of the women who don't get it are in relationships where their partner does take on a lot of the mental load, even if the mental load may be split along fairly traditional lines — if your husband takes care of the taxes and the finances and the car maintenance and the yard work, and you don't even have to think about those things, then it's easy to say "well it's no big deal if I have to take on the mental burden for all the housework and childcare." But there are also relationships where one person carries the mental load for all the finances and the taxes and the car maintenance and the yard work on top of all the childcare and housework and bills and literally everything else. And as if that isn't sucky enough, their partners literally do not recognize that all the mental work that goes into managing those things is actual work. Like they think women's brains are just infinitely expandable, and it doesn't take any real effort to remember 87,000 different things at once and make sure everything that needs to get done for the entire family (and often extended family) not only gets done, but gets done properly, on time, and within budget. So the husband thinks that taking out the trash (after being reminded four times) and picking up a kid from soccer practice once a week (after being reminded every week) means he's doing "his fair share."

[caedmyn]

44 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/well/mind/clutter-stress-procrastination-psychology.html

I think I read this article a month or so ago, when everyone was talking about decluttering. But what I took from it that helped me is not the decluttering bit, but the information about cortisol. Evidently, people who continue to think about tasks constantly have higher levels of cortisol and higher stress responses.

I had been really struggling with the mental burden of tasks at home, and I shared that article with DH. If I remember, I cried, and said, "So, I am not making up these feelings. I thought I was going crazy." Because being at home with the constant visual reminders of everything that I couldn't get done, and having my mind preoccupied constantly with a mental list of everything related to the household and childcare and planning family gatherings was creating very real and paralyzing stress for me.

I am right there with you.  I have thought for years, "I am doing all the thinking for 5/6/7 people".  It is just too much.  I think this is why "taking care of me first" never really helps.  It's nice, but the mental load is always present and there's no way around that.

[EmseB]

39 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 But there are also relationships where one person carries the mental load for all the finances and the taxes and the car maintenance and the yard work on top of all the childcare and housework and bills and literally everything else. And as if that isn't sucky enough, their partners literally do not recognize that all the mental work that goes into managing those things is actual work. Like they think women's brains are just infinitely expandable, and it doesn't take any real effort to remember 87,000 different things at once and make sure everything that needs to get done for the entire family (and often extended family) not only gets done, but gets done properly, on time, and within budget. So the husband thinks that taking out the trash (after being reminded four times) and picking up a kid from soccer practice once a week (after being reminded every week) means he's doing "his fair share."

Okay, so if we're talking only about that guy, then I give up. :whiteflag: There's no discussion to be had. That guy's a jerk who isn't even attempting to be helpful.

I find some disconnect in the idea that the lazy, useless man's way out is to scrub toilets himself because he doesn't care enough to...get someone else to do it like she asked...but okay. We'll all agree that every scenario described here in this thread is That Guy and he's a boor. And if he doesn't do exactly as she requests (and she has to request it, so already he's not paying attention!) he's either an idiot or doesn't care about her, but probably a little bit of both.

It couldn't be that most people's situations are not that extreme or one-sided. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by EmseB

[EmseB]

I also think that some of the disconnect is related to relative stress level. I generally feel like I have 87,000 things going on between myself and four kids and none of it ever gets done and I just accepted another commitment and now I'm sick so how to get all this going feeling like carp, etc.

But at the same time, I'm not constantly in a state of high stress about any or much of it. None of it is really ever going to be done in the next 10 years. No one is going to stop bugging me with their needs. I'm not going to get to stop thinking about or making dinner probably ever. But I can sit in my chair mid-day and drink a coffee and not care that I'm not accomplishing a household task. And then my kids start fighting and that's the end of that. But I don't go to bed overwhelmed precisely because everything I do will always be there. There's no possible way to do everything *perfectly* on time and on budget and get it all finished...I have never had that in mind as a household manager. No one expects that of me. Is it common for people in the family to expect that of the SAHM? Perfection, everything done and tidy all the time? Never miss a sports practice, forget a bday card, let a toilet get icky, leave laundry unfolded, drop the ball and not realize a kiddo has been maybe not honest about their school work? Because if the standard is done on time, on budget, no mistakes every time, I can see how one could quickly, EASILY burn out.

Like, a kid being hospitalized or a housefire or death or whatever...I have been in super stressful situations like that and it is HARD. I know people deal with that stuff a lot, sometimes long term. But that is not every day household management either.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Okay, so if we're talking only about that guy, then I give up. :whiteflag: There's no discussion to be had. That guy's a jerk who isn't even attempting to be helpful.

I find some disconnect in the idea that the lazy, useless man's way out is to scrub toilets himself because he doesn't care enough to...get someone else to do it like she asked...but okay. We'll all agree that every scenario described here in this thread is That Guy and he's a boor. And if he doesn't do exactly as she requests (and she has to request it, so already he's not paying attention!) he's either an idiot or doesn't care about her, but probably a little bit of both.

It couldn't be that most people's situations are not that extreme or one-sided. 

No, were not only taking about "that guy." I happened to have been married to one of those guys, and a couple of other people here seem to be, or have been, in similar situations. But there are also women in this very thread who are saying that they love their husbands very much, they are nice guys, they mean well, yet they (the wives) are still stuck shouldering 90-100% of the mental burden of managing a home and family, and that this is extremely difficult and stressful and frustrating.

And the responses to that seem to be either "Well you're just not communicating properly," or "Well if you just accept that life is like that, then you won't feel so stressed about it." Topped off with a dose of "Well obviously you should have done a better job of choosing your husband, like I did."

Edited March 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

37 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I also think that some of the disconnect is related to relative stress level. I generally feel like I have 87,000 things going on between myself and four kids and none of it ever gets done and I just accepted another commitment and now I'm sick so how to get all this going feeling like carp, etc.

But at the same time, I'm not constantly in a state of high stress about any or much of it. None of it is really ever going to be done in the next 10 years. No one is going to stop bugging me with their needs. I'm not going to get to stop thinking about or making dinner probably ever. But I can sit in my chair mid-day and drink a coffee and not care that I'm not accomplishing a household task. And then my kids start fighting and that's the end of that. But I don't go to bed overwhelmed precisely because everything I do will always be there. There's no possible way to do everything *perfectly* on time and on budget and get it all finished...I have never had that in mind as a household manager. No one expects that of me. Is it common for people in the family to expect that of the SAHM? Perfection, everything done and tidy all the time? Never miss a sports practice, forget a bday card, let a toilet get icky, leave laundry unfolded, drop the ball and not realize a kiddo has been maybe not honest about their school work? Because if the standard is done on time, on budget, no mistakes every time, I can see how one could quickly, EASILY burn out.

Like, a kid being hospitalized or a housefire or death or whatever...I have been in super stressful situations like that and it is HARD. I know people deal with that stuff a lot, sometimes long term. But that is not every day household management either.

Expecting that a partner will not ignore the "check engine" light for weeks until the engine is ruined is not expecting an unattainable level of perfection. Expecting a partner to open their mail and make sure bills get paid on time so the electricity doesn't get shut off, or the family doesn't lose their health insurance, or you're not stuck paying a big penalty you can't afford because the property taxes are late is not unreasonable. Expecting a partner to be able to pick up his own kid from a soccer game at 7 PM every Wednesday, without having to be reminded at 6:30 PM every Wednesday that he needs to do this, is not asking too much. Expecting a man to be able to order take-out for one meal without having to be told the exact same thing four times in a row is not an absurd request that most adult men would be incapable of. Expecting an adult man to pick up his own dirty clothes and put his own dirty dishes in the sink or dishwasher, rather than assume that his time is so much more valuable than his wife's that he'll just leave it for her to clean up, is not some crazy thing only the most difficult, demanding wives could possibly expect. This is basic Adulting 101, something I would actually expect most teens to be capable of, not some unattainable standard of perfection no one should expect of a 40 year old man. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[Carol in Cal.]

Re. The EF issue—an adult does have some responsibility to try to figure out how to scaffold himself for this.  I don’t mean to be unsympathetic, but I don’t think that just saying, oh well, you’ll have to remind me over and over or it will be your fault if it doesn’t happen even though it is a responsibility I agreed to, is really OK.

An example—I am TERRIBLE at driving directions.  I get lost ridiculously easily.  I have very little real sense of geography in cities and suburbs (although I never ever get lost while hiking.  It’s funny.).  So I could say, well, I’m always going to be late because I can never find anything.  I could call up someone with a good sense of direction and ask them to guide me turn by turn.  Do I do those things?  Nope.  I have a map function on my phone that navigates me to most of the places I go, and before I had that I used to print out driving instructions from Yahoo maps and follow those.  Before that I would study physical maps and pull over and consult them frequently.  I did this stuff because it’s how I compensated for being terrible at directions but not wanting to burden anyone else too much.

People who are grown ups have to try to figure out their own work arounds to some extent.  I’m not talking about the cases where someone is blind and shouldn’t be expected to cook over an open flame, but cases where there is assistance available via electronic means or lists or other helps.

 

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Expecting that a partner will not ignore the "check engine" light for weeks until the engine is ruined is not expecting an unattainable level of perfection. Expecting a partner to open their mail and make sure bills get paid on time so the electricity doesn't get shut off, or the family doesn't lose their health insurance, or you're not stuck paying a big penalty you can't afford because the property taxes are late is not unreasonable. Expecting a partner to be able to pick up his own kid from a soccer game at 7 PM every Wednesday, without having to be reminded at 6:30 PM every Wednesday that he needs to do this, is not asking too much. Expecting a man to be able to order take-out for one meal without having to be told the exact same thing four times in a row is not an absurd request that most adult men would be incapable of. Expecting an adult man to pick up his own dirty clothes and put his own dirty dishes in the sink or dishwasher, rather than assume that his time is so much more valuable than his wife's that he'll just leave it for her to clean up, is not some crazy thing only the most difficult, demanding wives could possibly expect. This is basic Adulating 101, something I would actually expect most teens to be capable of, not some unattainable standard of perfection no one should expect of a 40 year old man. 

*sigh*

I am talking about my own responsibilities stressing me out (or rather not stressing me out) in household management, not what I expect of others.

I agree that the things you list are not high expectations and the man is an unreasonable deadbeat in all these scenarios. That was not my question at all, even remotely.

[EmseB]

25 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

No, were not only taking about "that guy." I happened to have been married to one of those guys, and a couple of other people here seem to be, or have been, in similar situations. But there are also women in this very thread who are saying that they love their husbands very much, they are nice guys, they mean well, yet they (the wives) are still stuck shouldering 90-100% of the mental burden of managing a home and family, and that this is extremely difficult and stressful and frustrating.

And the responses to that seem to be either "Well you're just not communicating properly," or "Well if you just accept that life is like that, then you won't feel so stressed about it." Topped off with a dose of "Well obviously you should have done a better job of choosing your husband, like I did."

All the women that differ in an opinion about these issues have no compassion, gloat over their choice of husband (specifically said the opposite myself! but whatever), and generally just have no compassion for any other woman. Probably never had an issue with their husbands or fought or felt not listened to or ignored. Got it. Have a nice evening, I don't think there's any way to reconcile any of this. I feel like I'm responding to someone who is not reading or understanding any of my words. And attibuting malice to boot!

Funny that dismissing the experience, opinion, and perspective of other women (and strawmanning their arguments) is somehow the best way to point out that women are being ignored and dismissed IRL.

[Bluegoat]

6 hours ago, Corraleno said:

People with executive function issues who actually care about their partners and don't want to just dump 95-100% of the mental load on them, can make a reasonable effort to mitigate their issues: they can create lists/schedules for recurrent tasks such as cleaning or car maintenance or bill paying or whatever, they can set up autopay for bills, put alarms on their phone, put repeating events like birthdays on digital calendars, etc. If they are asked to take over a task that has not been their responsibility before, they can ask for help setting up a system, up front, to keep them on track. They can acknowledge that the planning and the scheduling and the follow-up are at least as much, if not more, of the work than the actual execution of the task. 

Many people, especially men, do not want to bother with with hassle of setting up systems to mitigate these weaknesses, they would rather just dump the mental load on someone else — and then often expect profuse thanks if they can even be bothered to execute a task that has been assigned to them as long as it's a one-time thing, all the planning has been done, and the steps have been clearly spelled out by someone else. Many men get around this at work by dumping those tasks on a secretary or executive assistant, while others are forced to set up systems, like those listed above, in order to keep their jobs, but they are still unwilling to give their partners the same respect and consideration they give their bosses and coworkers.

The issue isn't that people who are naturally organized and have good executive function skills expect everyone else to be naturally good at the same skills. The issue is expecting that a thoughtful, considerate partner should at least be willing to put systems in place that allow them to help share the burden.

 

Isn't the whole premise of the article that mental load is something that it is difficult to see when it is something you haven't really been responsible for.

We know very little about this guy in the article, o the woman who wrote it.  His wife woders if he is trying to avoid the work that is burdening her - maybe she is right.  It's also entirely possible that he doesn't understand what she is asking for, or it's vague enough that he can't formulate a plan to deal with it.  .  Telling him to hire a cleaner does not really express that issue, nor does telling him to pick up after himself, nor does generalised talk about carrying the load unless you already understand the nature of the problem she wants to solve. And none of it goes very far to helping with the real problem.  They don't seem to have sat down and actually talked about management of tasks, and what all really needs to be accomplished in an organised way.  Which is precisely what people who don't understand what the mental load of a task need to know, and especially what people who are bad at executive function need to know to create ways to mitigate their limits.

It does no one any good to say it should be obvious, no one should have to ask about this stuff or dig into what really needs to be done, if they don't see the mental effort involved they must just not want to.  What people think and say and want is not always obvious to others, whether or not they think it should be.  

I have no clue why you think the fact that someone here, or yourself, or someone you know, deals with a person who understands but doesn't bother, means that is what is going on in  every other instance of this kind.  Or why it would be odd for people to talk about that in relation to the article if it seems like that could be the issue in the examples there.  Or in relations to their own experience of similar things. You have no more way of knowing which sort of scenario is going on here than any one else, it could be any number of possibilities and they have different potential solutions.

Honestly, if the author thinks her husband doesn't want to help her and doesn't care, she should leave him.  If she thinks he does - which seems likely given that he is actually making an effort, just an unsuccessful one - the problem seems to be that he still doesn't get quite what is troubling her.  Maybe he is stupid, but saying it would be better if he weren't won't change anything.  

[Corraleno]

27 minutes ago, EmseB said:

All the women that differ in an opinion about these issues have no compassion, gloat over their choice of husband (specifically said the opposite myself! but whatever), and generally just have no compassion for any other woman. Probably never had an issue with their husbands or fought or felt not listened to or ignored. Got it. Have a nice evening, I don't think there's any way to reconcile any of this. I feel like I'm responding to someone who is not reading or understanding any of my words. And attibuting malice to boot!

Funny that dismissing the experience, opinion, and perspective of other women (and strawmanning their arguments) is somehow the best way to point out that women are being ignored and dismissed IRL.

Someone on this thread did in fact say that living with this burden is totally a choice, and that she purposely chose a husband who did not have any of these issues, and would never have settled for a husband with ADD because they are childish thinkers. Which kind of took me aback, to be honest, because I can't personally imagine saying to someone "I'm sorry, but I can't go out with you because you have a learning disability and therefore are not up to my standards." Also, I know plenty of people with ADD who somehow manage to make it work without dumping all of their EF issues on a spouse.

Other people have said that women who complained about these issues were just being whiny, or weren't communicating clearly, or should just suck it up and accept that it is what it is and be cheerful about it instead of frustrated. It's like there are only two possible alternatives here: the men are total selfish assholes and there's nothing to be done about it, or the men are basically decent guys so the problem is either that the women are being too picky and aren't explaining things well enough, or they just need to adjust their attitudes and just accept that this is their life from now on.

What I'm not seeing in this thread are women saying "Oh, wow, yeah I can see how it would suck to be married to someone you love and want to stay married to. but who is just not willing to take on more than 10-20% of the mental load, if that. That must be so exhausting and frustrating! You have my sympathies." I'm reading lots and lots and lots of comments along the lines that women really shouldn't expect a man to do this or that or this other thing without extensive hand-holding and multiple explanations and check lists and reminders, because nobody's perfect. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Re. The EF issue—an adult does have some responsibility to try to figure out how to scaffold himself for this.  I don’t mean to be unsympathetic, but I don’t think that just saying, oh well, you’ll have to remind me over and over or it will be your fault if it doesn’t happen even though it is a responsibility I agreed to, is really OK.

An example—I am TERRIBLE at driving directions.  I get lost ridiculously easily.  I have very little real sense of geography in cities and suburbs (although I never ever get lost while hiking.  It’s funny.).  So I could say, well, I’m always going to be late because I can never find anything.  I could call up someone with a good sense of direction and ask them to guide me turn by turn.  Do I do those things?  Nope.  I have a map function on my phone that navigates me to most of the places I go, and before I had that I used to print out driving instructions from Yahoo maps and follow those.  Before that I would study physical maps and pull over and consult them frequently.  I did this stuff because it’s how I compensated for being terrible at directions but not wanting to burden anyone else too much.

People who are grown ups have to try to figure out their own work arounds to some extent.  I’m not talking about the cases where someone is blind and shouldn’t be expected to cook over an open flame, but cases where there is assistance available via electronic means or lists or other helps.

 

I do the exact same things and I have used this exact example to try to get people to understand that just shrugging your shoulders and saying "well I'm not good at that, so you're going to have to do that job" is not acceptable unless the other person explicitly agrees to that and things balance out in other ways. My sense of direction is so bad that I can't even "reverse" written directions in my head, so I not only used to have to write out explicit directions to get somewhere, I would have to write out another set of explicit directions for coming back. Until the availability of portable GPS devices, I always had a map in my car, and I always wrote out the directions in advance and did a virtual run-though with the map to make sure nothing was missing. Even now, when I never go anywhere without GPS, I still often print out a map and directions ahead of time anyway, in case the Garmin loses it's signal (which for some reason happens frequently in our city) or I get stuck with a detour and the GPS keeps trying to make me get back on the road that isn't usable. 

As I've gotten older I've found that my post-menopausal brain is far more porous than my premenopausal brain was, and I need to rely a lot more on written lists and schedules and reminders, instead of being able to keep it all in my head. So that's what I do! I make lists and schedules and reminders, I don't just say, well, I guess I'm crap at remembering stuff now, so I need to offload those tasks on someone else. 

[Bluegoat]

5 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Not fibbing, just incredulous.

I literally do not understand how a neurotypical adult could not know how to take over family meals for a few days, or find out if they didn't previously know.

I do not understand how a man, previously confused about all things domestic, cannot use the tool called Google to look up 'meal plans family post surgery' or 'mid range cleaning service'.

I do understand that a spouse, say, with ADHD, is going to find things tougher, and both counselling and coaching might be required to help that spouse be able to take a fair share of the load. And that's a separate challenge to your ordinary 'please feed us all after surgery without asking me to think about it' scenario.

 

I don't think he was incapable -he got everyone fed in the end and presumably for the rest of the week. Being incapable isn't the issue, it's having a bit of a bumpy ride at the beginning.

it might be that some people are incapable, but that would be extreme. It does sound like maybe cooking was not something he did much, since his wife thought he might prefer just to order out.

I think that probably, because he didn't normally take care of all that, when she initially said "take care of the meals" he interpreted that as just doing the cooking, maybe in a way he'd done before when asked to help out, and assumed he knew what was going on, and didn't think about it again until it came up.  He wouldn't google anything because he thought he knew what would happen, there would be food to make available and he'd in some way be told what to make, and then he would totally take care of it.

Then he all of a sudden realised that no, he was supposed to have decided himself.  Which for whatever reason seemed to throw him for a loop.  Bad at making decisions, no cooking skills at all, can't cook from pantry ingredients without direction, panicked because he dropped the ball, I don't know.  In the end he ordered out.

I think this is the whole point of the mental load issue - the person not managing that task will tend to miss just what and how much work is involved, and may tend to assume that what they see it the bulk of it.  The degree to which they make that mistake about a particular task will depend a lot on their own experiences.

He dropped the ball a bit and floundered around unattractively, but I can't see any reason to assume it was in bad faith.  I don't think the wife was in bad faith either, it would have seemed perfectly obvious to her that he needed to have some kind of plan, so why would she make a point of telling him?  There are likely things both might have done to clarify, but that would depend on them realising that something was not being communicated.

 

[Bluegoat]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Except that what so many people keep saying is that women who are stating that they are carrying all (most/a lot/an unfair amount) of the mental load of their household are just not communicating clearly enough and/or that they are ignoring the mental load of their spouse.  And what I have been trying to say is that that is just simply not the case in a lot of cases, specifically, my case, and in the case of the lady who had surgery, I still actually for really actual cannot comprehend how ANYONE can claim she didn't communicate clearly.  It just baffles me that it is being said that she wasn't communicating clearly because the words that came out of her mouth are probably different than what she actually meant.  

 

Um, no.

People are reading the article and suggesting that there are a variety of possibilities around what the underlying problem might be in that situation being described, or in these situations generally.   One possibility is that is is just like she says, and everyone knows that sometimes that happens.  I think everyone or most people have actually said so.  But there is really quite a variety of things that can contribute to these situations, and also things that can be barriers to resolving them.   Saying that, or that maybe the situation in the article fits that profile, does not mean that is universally the case.

Has anyone told you that your dhs' issues iare probably that you don't communicate correctly, or that your asking for the wrong things?  No, because we have no reason to think that. Theoretically it could be true, but based on what you've said it doesn't seem so, at least to me.  Your situation is your situation.

It really doesn't matter if it baffles you that sometimes people don't think something is clear, when you do.  Or rather, that is kind of the point to take about the nature of interpersonal communications - people can think they are being so clear no one could misunderstand and another person will misunderstand them and have no idea something different was meant.

I think she was not entirely clear, and unless I am fibbing, that is an evidential truth - it is possible to have understood her in more than one way, because we have in fact understood her in different ways.   

[Storygirl]

3 hours ago, EmseB said:

Okay, so if we're talking only about that guy, then I give up. :whiteflag: There's no discussion to be had. That guy's a jerk who isn't even attempting to be helpful.

I find some disconnect in the idea that the lazy, useless man's way out is to scrub toilets himself because he doesn't care enough to...get someone else to do it like she asked...but okay. We'll all agree that every scenario described here in this thread is That Guy and he's a boor. And if he doesn't do exactly as she requests (and she has too request it, so already he's not paying attention!) he's either an idiot or doesn't care about her, but probably a little bit of both.

It couldn't be that most people's situations are not that extreme or one-sided. 

I have not described my husband that way.

My husband is a stand-up good guy. And he still does not help bear the mental load.

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Expecting that a partner will not ignore the "check engine" light for weeks until the engine is ruined is not expecting an unattainable level of perfection. Expecting a partner to open their mail and make sure bills get paid on time so the electricity doesn't get shut off, or the family doesn't lose their health insurance, or you're not stuck paying a big penalty you can't afford because the property taxes are late is not unreasonable. Expecting a partner to be able to pick up his own kid from a soccer game at 7 PM every Wednesday, without having to be reminded at 6:30 PM every Wednesday that he needs to do this, is not asking too much. Expecting a man to be able to order take-out for one meal without having to be told the exact same thing four times in a row is not an absurd request that most adult men would be incapable of. Expecting an adult man to pick up his own dirty clothes and put his own dirty dishes in the sink or dishwasher, rather than assume that his time is so much more valuable than his wife's that he'll just leave it for her to clean up, is not some crazy thing only the most difficult, demanding wives could possibly expect. This is basic Adulting 101, something I would actually expect most teens to be capable of, not some unattainable standard of perfection no one should expect of a 40 year old man. 

 

Look, I really don't get the personalisation going on in this thread.  Your ex seems like he was an ass, or deficient in some way.  No one is saying he isn't.

Do you think that every time someone in a relationship feels that they are carrying more than their fair share, or changing that situation is not going well, it is always a situation like the one you personally experienced?

 

[Bluegoat]

nm

Edited March 14, 2019 by Bluegoat

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Look, I really don't get the personalisation going on in this thread.  Your ex seems like he was an ass, or deficient in some way.  No one is saying he isn't.

Do you think that every time someone in a relationship feels that they are carrying more than their fair share, or changing that situation is not going well, it is always a situation like the one you personally experienced?

 

Some of the examples I included in my post are things experienced by other people who posted about them in this very thread, others are true examples from other people I know of, a couple are personal experiences, and I could list several dozen more examples that I know of from women I have known  who are still married and want to stay married. So no, obviously I don't think every other relationship is exactly like mine — but there are at least two other people in this very thread who have posted about experiences that are just as severe, or even moreso, as my experience, and other people who have posted in this very thread about similar experiences they have had with men who aren't actually jerks but who, for whatever reason, still dump 90% or so of the mental load for the family on their wives. And I have a ton of sympathy for them because I have BTDT and now that I no longer have another person occupying half of my brain rent-free, I know just how exhausting and stressful that was because I no longer have to carry that burden myself. Its the lack of empathy from other women, who seem to think it cannot really be that big of a deal, that bugs me.

[Storygirl]

I think part of the problem in this thread is that some people are talking about the article.

And some people took the article as a jumping off point and are talking about their own personal struggles with mental load.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Just now, Corraleno said:

Some of the examples I included in my post are things experienced by other people who posted about them in this very thread, others are true examples from other people I know of, a couple are personal experiences, and I could list several dozen more examples that I know of from women I have known  who are still married and want to stay married. So no, obviously I don't think every other relationship is exactly like mine — but there are at least two other people in this very thread who have posted about experiences that are just as severe, or even moreso, as my experience, and other people who have posted in this very thread about similar experiences they have had with men who aren't actually jerks but who, for whatever reason, still dump 90% or so of the mental load for the family on their wives. And I have a ton of sympathy for them because I have BTDT and now that I no longer have another person occupying half of my brain rent-free, I know just how exhausting and stressful that was because I no longer have to carry that burden myself. Its the lack of empathy from other women, who seem to think it cannot really be that big of a deal, that bugs me.

 

No one thinks those situations aren't real, difficult, and without obvious or easy remedies.

[Corraleno]

16 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I have not described my husband that way.

My husband is a stand-up good guy. And he still does not help bear the mental load.

Yeah, this is the point that I think is just wizzing past a lot of people. It's like either the husband's an obvious ass, in which case OK everyone will agree it's not the wife's fault (except that maybe she could have screened the perspective candidates better), or her husband is not an ass, therefore the woman is either not explaining things well enough, or expecting too much, or being too picky, or not appreciating the other work the guy does.

[EmseB]

14 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I have not described my husband that way.

My husband is a stand-up good guy. And he still does not help bear the mental load.

I really think my brain is going to explode.

I have been trying, for most of the day, to explain how someone could futz up a task or request from their wife and still possibly have good intentions or be not a huge idiot or jerk.

The post you quoted and responded to was frustrated sarcasm because people not only discounted that as a possibility but went on to assume that I was ignoring and dismissing the experiences of women and telling them it was their own fault.

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

Yeah, this is the point that I think is just wizzing past a lot of people. It's like either the husband's an obvious ass, in which case OK everyone will agree it's not the wife's fault (except that maybe she could have screened the perspective candidates better), or her husband is not an ass, therefore the woman is either not explaining things well enough, or expecting too much, or being too picky, or not appreciating the other work the guy does.

Oh my word. I have said exactly the opposite over and over and over specifically in response to your posts. I wrote out examples of what the man's thinking could have been in the situation that would make the husband a) not a jerk and b) the wife not anything you state above.

I am in the Twilight Zone officially.

[EmseB]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

What I'm not seeing in this thread are women saying "Oh, wow, yeah I can see how it would suck to be married to someone you love and want to stay married to. but who is just not willing to take on more than 10-20% of the mental load, if that. That must be so exhausting and frustrating! You have my sympathies."

Here is me with nothing to do or think about all evening, so I have too much time on my hands and I need to occupy my brain. So this is what I did because you were not the only one to say that no one acknowledged that end of the spectrum or expressed sympathy. All of these were excerpted from posts speaking from "the other side". Almost everyone who was explaining a different POV tried to put in a caveat, disclaimer, sympathy about what you're talking about above. Not all, but a lot of posts. I tried to mostly quote myself so as to not step on too many toes. Outside of that, there was one poster in particular who was blunt about saying that it was totally under her control and she just wouldn't live like that and it was the woman's fault for allowing it. One person. Who, admittedly, said that kind of thing more than once. 

On 3/12/2019 at 3:04 PM, EmseB said:

Kids' mental health issues, being present as a parent, household sanitation, car maintenance, changing diapers, managing bills, doctor's appointment, etc. are all a huge mental and physical load for someone to manage and they have to be done, non-negotiable. I think it is well and truly hard to carry that as one person. I do it when my DH deploys and it sucks. It would suck even worse if I had to do it all while he was here, I get that.

 

On 3/11/2019 at 10:34 AM, EmseB said:

If it's really that no one else will do anything in the household or play with kids or wipe a counter here or there or whatever and they aren't working in any capacity, I totally get how *that* would be frustrating.   (***this was my very first post in the thread, ftr***)

 

On 3/11/2019 at 2:35 PM, EmseB said:

I understand my situation is not everyone else's.

 

On 3/11/2019 at 3:52 PM, Bluegoat said:

Well, I will say I have known of a few spouses who were simply unwilling to help or really even try.  Mt step-moms ex seems to have been like that though she also put up with it - essentially everything that wasn't bringing in money it was her job.  No discussion.  It was actually quite weird and he had some other mental oddities too.  Basically he was a dick.

 

On 3/11/2019 at 4:57 PM, MissLemon said:

I have a lot of empathy for women that feel overwhelmed, resentful, and angry about carrying too much of the family load, because holy cats, have I been there! 
 

 

On 3/11/2019 at 11:36 PM, frogger said:

I realize some of you may be married to complete nin-com-poops. I'm sorry, because truthfully that sucks.

 

On 3/12/2019 at 7:57 AM, forty-two said:

I agree that the mental load is real.  I've really appreciated the cartoon I saw that first made the concept explicit for me.  And since mental load is invisible, it *does* go largely unnoticed and thus unappreciated by those who don't know what goes into it. 

The problem is that others miss them because they are largely invisible to others, and so while they all enjoy the results of it being done and feel the lack of it going undone, they have no idea that anything *was* done.  It's frustrating having one's labor be invisible. 

 

On 3/12/2019 at 8:11 AM, SKL said:

The fact that much of our contribution is often invisible is a valid point.

 

On 3/12/2019 at 10:19 AM, Garga said:

Now, for some women, they do all of the above and I can see where if they did all of those sorts of things and their dh’s only worked and then came home and sat around, that it would start getting crazy.  

For the women who carry it all, you have my sympathy.   If you have a jerk (and I hae a friend with a real jerk of a husband who refuses to do anything to help), then you have double my sympathy.

 

On 3/12/2019 at 1:08 PM, EmseB said:

 I can understand the frustration more if it's always one partner messing up and leaving slack. I'm sorry for people who have to live a life of constantly minding and prodding another adult. That has to suck.

 

On 3/12/2019 at 8:22 PM, Arctic Mama said:

Some of the husbands described here are, as the pre-eminent sages TLC put it, scrubs.  Or just plain not functioning at a level where they can be equal partners, for whatever reason. 

I fully and completely believe every claim made here on this topic. 

This conversation feels so much like women trying to make enemies of other women.  It’s frustrating, to say the least, as someone who hears and agrees with you.

 

[EmseB]

8 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

That is not the vibe I got from this thread, lol. 

I believe the word 'whiny' was used ?

I think that when I read some of the mommy blogs on this topic, particularly like the article in the OP, the word whiny comes to mind. I think articles like that do a disservice to women are living with people like your DH or BooksandBoys' or Corraleno's ex, or Lemon's ex, or HSL's DH who absolutely will not or cannot function as a thinking, helping partner in the household for whatever reason. Because they are not the same thing.

My DH doing dinner and sending the kiddo up with a packet to ask me in bed if that's the rice the recipe calls for isn't a problem. It truly isn't and if I complain about it, I'm being silly because my DH is apparently pretty good and capable. Because there are people who's husbands won't or can't earn income, won't deal with kid stuff, won't do housework, won't, won't won't. And to conflate the bungling of dinner when mom is sick with the latter I think really messes something up and minimizes the issues of taking on a full mental load of the house and not having any relief in sight ever. And that's not to say that there aren't degrees of problematic husbands out there, or that because someone is worse that means the slightly better dude gets a pass. I just think we might all be discussing different things here because given what I know of your situation (and others') I would never consider using the word whiny to describe you. In fact, I generally think something of the opposite, if there is an opposite to whiny. I think how your DH treats you is truly shitty and I wish there were a better option for you. I don't know how else to say that when I've been commenting on the thread, I take your situation to be somewhat of an extreme end of the spectrum (as is blowing up the car, not being able to get car reg after a divorce, so and so forth) and not whatsoever what I've been commenting on when I think someone needs to "change their perspective" or try to see it from the DH's POV.

[frogger]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

  And that matters more to me than giving the benefit of the doubt to those shirking, or perceived to be shirking. But each of us feels differently, and in the end, that's how it is. 

 

I shared some of my story then promptly erased it because it's not mine to share but I know and have stayed in a home where the woman's sole contribution might "might" be that she swept the floor because her husband asked her to. No homeschooling, no career, no cooking, no licence to drive kids places, no maintainance skills, hell not even basic laundry. The man not only worked tons of overtime but took care of everything. Ev.er.y.thing. I watched him raise 4 kids and multiple nephews and run himself into the ground. His weekends were spent doing cleaning and food when he wasn't working tons of overtime as the sole breadwinner.  He dealt with school issues, discipline issues, then had to fix the car and pay the bills. Mostly she watched movies and played video games. The first time I experienced this I didn't know what to do as a guest. After a few years, if I was visiting, I'd do the work myself, as a guest while she watched t.v. 

 

 I also know three men personally that are now raising their ex's children that aren't biologically theirs because the woman is a flake and the children refused to live with their mom but chose their step-dad. The carry the entire mental load because the women aren't even in the picture anymore. I know it's only three though. I don't say it's a complete representation of the entire nation.

Trust me there is flakiness in both genders. 

It works so much better to work as a team but if you get someone who is a flake there are huge costs to divorce and you can't "just change" another adult. I will agree with that.

I can sympathize and want all couples to share burdens but what I really can't do is say it is always men. The majority of my personal experience tells me it's the other way around but I know others have different experiences and really each relationship has their own dynamics. 

So we can both agree that parents ought to be supported more. What we can't agree on is that all men fit this sterotype and all women are wonderful. 

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by frogger
Spelling

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

That is not the vibe I got from this thread, lol. 

I believe the word 'whiny' was used ?

I did use it in relation to the vibe of articles on that particular website not any poster here.  I’ve no idea if I was the only one to use it.

I have to be honest, if you can afford a housekeeping service and your complaining about having to make phone calls to get it I can’t help see that as a bit whiny.  Maybe I’m being all judgmental but it just feels so 1st world problems or you know “it’s so hard to get good help these days” style.  

[Shoeless]

Never mind.

Edited March 14, 2019 by MissLemon

[DawnM]

Shrug.....people complaining about what they have to do because they think it is more than what someone else has to deal with......pretty normal.   Heck, I do it all the time.

In my household, DH does ALL the outside work, yardwork, landscaping, pool, etc.....I hate it.  I don't mind doing a little extra inside to compensate.  And I don't mind making the schedules and knowing when the appointments are for the kid, activities, etc.....I am a little bit of a control freak about those kinds of things anyway.  But I don't see it as some huge monumental "mental load."  It is just life.

[frogger]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

Basically, I just wish all women were better supported, so that however the configuration works for each family, each woman felt like she wasn't carrying someone else's mental load.  And that matters more to me than giving the benefit of the doubt to those shirking, or perceived to be shirking. But each of us feels differently, and in the end, that's how it is. 

 

Well, you sure seem to imply it.

 

"ALL" women need better supported. You have a bias. 

I certainly feel for those who don't have a real team mate to help them raise kids etc. But a pass that ALL women are victims is a modern narrative that I simply can't agree with. 

I know you will probably now qualify it but that really seems to be the attitude I hear a lot. It certainly seemed the tone of the thread and and the article.  Men are certainly NOT given the same pass to complain about the opposite sex regardless of if they have been treated poorly. 

That seems to be a privilage only women are allowed.

Edited March 14, 2019 by frogger

[Bluegoat]

9 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

That is not the vibe I got from this thread, lol. 

I believe the word 'whiny' was used ?

 

I think the thread overall covered a pretty wide variety o situations, some of them including whiny ones.  I don't think there are significant differences in self-reflective ability among men and women, so some people don't really have much insight to their situations on both sides.  I noticed a lot of people mentioned mommy bloggers being annoying about this, I may be they tend to be a certain sort of person.  I don't tend to enjoy the trend to very personalised writing in that I see in a lot of media, and I wonder if that isn't true of others as well, and they are rubbed the wrong way.

9 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I think a disproportionate mental load is pretty common, and I absolutely believe that many women experience it in their relationships, and that there are major commonalities in the experience of mental load, whether the woman is with an abusive ass or a really lovely, clueless guy. 

 

 

I also think it's very common for mental load to be disproportionate, and that for a variety of reasons women often are on the heavier end of that.  I also think for most couples it's possible to do something to improve it.

I think when people are at an impasse around this, the only way to try and overcome it is going to be to approach it like a management exercise, and look at things like, is the perception that the load is unfair accurate as it could be.  THat's not an assumption that it isn't, it's a way of trying to see things more holistically.  Because it is also the case that the person who is seen to be doing less may have mental load that is invisible to the other person.  That's the nature of it being invisible, and it's not uncommon.  Even if there is still an imbalance, it can make people feel a lot better at the situation if they realise that actually, their partner is not just looking for a free ride and is contributing. It can also reveal what the real gaps are, or where there are patterns.

And then it's often a good idea to check around expectations.  I think this is an area where their often will be legitimate differences in opinion and expectation that can sabotage things. There often isn't really one right answer about how housework or bills should look, and people's experience growing up often contain a lot of underlying assumptions they aren't aware of themselves, and don't communicate well to their partner as a result.  

Those can gross gender expectations because they have to do with family culture, but I do think gender expectations have a big role in many cases.  Lots of people have the experience of a mother who takes care of certain things, and that tends to make it hard for them to see the real work being done.  I think though that there is a part of that which it ends up falling to women themselves to let go of, which is that they very often have certain expectations of themselves, or certain things as reflecting on themselves. Men seem in a lot of cases to have an easier time letting those go - they don't care about remembering everyone's birthday in the extended family, or that the house should look like what they see on HGTV, or they aren't reading magazines that tell them they have to make snazzy packed lunches for their kids.  I think women internalise a lot of pressures with this stuff that can really ramp up the feeling of carrying the household themselves.  Most men who find themselves having to manage it all just let a lot of that stuff go, and they don't get some of those pressures in the first place, they don't watch HGTV for example (I know that seems like I'm giving a lot of power to a tv channel, but I think it's emblematic and that stuff is truly hugely popular and has had a hand in changing people's expectations around household work.)   

All of which is to say I think it can require a real examination for a lot of women about what is pressurising them, including social and cultural things,  and expectations from their up-bringing. It could also be their spouse's expectations.    I think reconsidering what is really important like this can be a huge relief for a lot of overwhelmed people, it can probably reduce mental load for some more than a spouse making changes to what they do.

The third thing I think is to take a pretty clear look at your own and your partner's limitations, and what will take the least energy to change most effectively, and what sort of things are going to be impossible.  The thing with the bin struck me like that.  It could be an easy fix, but if he is the sort of person who gets distracted between tasks and then forgets what he was doing, he'll likely always do it to some extent.  It would be better use of effort to try and be chill about the fact that he leaves stuff out, and maybe get him to take over something else.  And similarly, if there is certain work that is especially trying for you, or which you actually will not want to turn over, then it's best to be aware of that.

I think for most couples, if the one who is overburdened can try and see what are the most pressing issues, they are so much more likely to be able to approach the other person in a way they will respond to.  And it's just so much easier to finding practical solutions when there is a clearer sense of what is going on in the household, and what needs to go on, and what could be left.

 I know a few people have said they think that when someone is at the end of their tether they have already examined all this, but that hasn't tended to be my experience,  I think the being overwhelmed in itself can begin to obscure these kinds of things, and suck in issues that are really peripheral.

So - that's usually how I approach thinking about articles like this - what could be the factors, how would I approach working through them.  It does tend in a way to be one-sided, because I have more information about the thinking of the person doing the writing, while only that person's explanation and perception of the situation of the other person.  

 

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the time you took to be so clear. You're a sweetheart, and it means a lot.  I still think mental load issues are relatively common for women, even when they're not down my extreme end. 

I think often women don't say anything to other people for a long time, so to outsiders it can seem like whining, but it's actually last straw stuff.

The vibe I got from the original article was end of the tether - a woman, with young kids, who is also working - that's Big Stress, albeit normal stress in our society.  I understand end of their tether women saying 'hey, not OK', even in the pages of a crappy magazine, and I don't think that makes them whiners either. 

Basically, I just wish all women were better supported, so that however the configuration works for each family, each woman felt like she wasn't carrying someone else's mental load.  And that matters more to me than giving the benefit of the doubt to those shirking, or perceived to be shirking. But each of us feels differently, and in the end, that's how it is. 

What bothers me about the original article - and the reason I said “whiny” - is that, upset for understandable reasons or not, what good does writing an article about her bumbling, incompetant mate do for the problem? I cannot stand articles about how husbands, or “millenials” or teenagers or mother-in-laws all just DON’T GET IT. This reads to me like just one more of those. 

The thing with leaving the Rubbermaid tote out - I do not understand why she would trip over it, push it on its side, be mad about it for two days. If it were a one-off thing at my house, I would get out the step stool and put it back up. If it were a chronic thing another family member repeatedly does, I would discuss it with them. “Dude, I get so frustrated that every week you leave the ——— right in the middle of ————. You, being taller, can easily put it back but I have to get out a stool. So please put it back.” Presumably, if he’s not a careless jerk, he will modify his behavior. If he is a careless jerk, well, I am sad for the woman. 

I think it’s a common pattern for people who are weak on EF skills pair up with someone who is strong on them and the strong EF person assumes the thinking for both. If I didn’t care whether or not we get to church late, well, then, we would be late all the time. Last weekend, we would have been an hour late because I’m the one who remembers Daylight Savings Time, lol. I don’t think it’s fair, though, if I just refused to mention it because I just want to prove to him that I alone am the Keeper of the Time. 

Anyway, if for someone, “dh” really just means “d!ckh**d”, because he just chronically does not care about her burden, well that is a sad thing. But I don’t think a blog post or article in a magazine is helping matters. 

[forty-two]

22 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

Those can gross gender expectations because they have to do with family culture, but I do think gender expectations have a big role in many cases.  Lots of people have the experience of a mother who takes care of certain things, and that tends to make it hard for them to see the real work being done.  I think though that there is a part of that which it ends up falling to women themselves to let go of, which is that they very often have certain expectations of themselves, or certain things as reflecting on themselves. Men seem in a lot of cases to have an easier time letting those go - they don't care about remembering everyone's birthday in the extended family, or that the house should look like what they see on HGTV, or they aren't reading magazines that tell them they have to make snazzy packed lunches for their kids.  I think women internalise a lot of pressures with this stuff that can really ramp up the feeling of carrying the household themselves.  Most men who find themselves having to manage it all just let a lot of that stuff go, and they don't get some of those pressures in the first place, they don't watch HGTV for example (I know that seems like I'm giving a lot of power to a tv channel, but I think it's emblematic and that stuff is truly hugely popular and has had a hand in changing people's expectations around household work.)  

I agree that it's easier to let things go when you don't care about them.  But that's not the same as those things intrinsically not deserving to be cared about.  Often I think women - or whoever the party is who thinks a given thing deserves to be done - care more because they understand more.  AKA they are *right* to care, because those things *actually do matter*, because those things *actually make a positive difference*, because not doing those things really does lower the quality of life.  It's kind of a corollary to the mental load being necessary but non-obvious to the unskilled: how a given task relates to the bigger goals and ends of life is not obvious to all.  And it's easy to not care about a task when you don't understand how it contributes to the big picture.  But just because you don't understand doesn't mean there's nothing to understand.  AKA your failure to understand why something matters could very well be *your* failure of imagination, instead of being a sign of the task's intrinsic unimportance.  Just because one party finds it easier to slough off a bunch of expectations doesn't necessarily mean that party is *right* to be doing so.  "Easier" doesn't mean "better".

It's kind of like the idea that if you have no idea why a law was passed - you have no idea what the point was - then you actually have no business trying to repeal that law.  The fact that you can't imagine why anyone could ever have thought it was a good idea isn't a good argument for getting rid of the law, but rather is a sign you need to *better understand the reason for the law* before you start deciding what to do about it.  (Else you are on track for discovering the reason for the law the hard way.)  Before letting things go, it's worthwhile to consider the costs as well as the benefits.  If you can't think of a single good reason why someone would do something, it's a strong indication you have very little understanding of it.  (Likewise if you can't think of a single good reason why someone would *not* do something.) 

On average, women tend to have a greater focus on building and maintaining relationships than men.  So it's not surprising that women, on average, would have greater expectations around things that build and maintain relationships (such as remembering birthdays) than men - because they understand more of the value of relationships and the work that goes into building and maintaining relationships.  (My understanding is that binding families and communities together was traditionally considered one of the central contributions of women to the common good.) 

IDK, I don't want to discount the pernicious effect of media on men and women's expectations, or how the binding impetus of doing what others in your community are doing can just as easily be a force for evil instead a force for good.  One of the many reasons to re-examine why we do what we do is *because* what we are doing isn't working.  But just because a thing isn't worth the effort in our current situation doesn't mean the thing isn't worth the effort, period, or that cutting out the thing doesn't involve a genuine loss, even as we anticipate a net gain.

But the whole "if others don't value your expectations then your expectations aren't valuable" assumption - especially in the context of men not valuing the traditional concerns of women - it does seem far too related to dismissing the inherent value of the traditional concerns of women.  That in the conflict over how men often don't personally understand the intricacies of women's concerns (and so are prone to dismiss those concerns as unwarranted or unnecessary), there's this implicit assumption that men are *right* in their judgment that traditional women's concerns are indeed unnecessary.  Which I reject entirely.  Both on the general grounds that it's wrongheaded to judge things you don't understand and on the specific grounds that traditional women's concerns *are* inherently valuable.

~*~

FWIW, I'm coming at this as someone who, in my teens and 20s, *didn't* understand people or relationships and who didn't value traditional women's concerns or traditional female ways of relating.  I cheerfully sloughed off every expectation that didn't make sense to me.  But in my 30s, I've come to better understand people and relationships, enough so that all those expectations and habits that I dismissed as so much unnecessary effort - I now understand something of their value.  After years of being the sort of non-conforming woman who didn't have a lot of respect for traditional female ways of being and acting, I'm now starting to understand the sense and purpose and wisdom of so many of the things I used to unthinkingly reject.

~*~

IDK, it sort of feels like, in this thread, that there's this all-or-nothing assumption about who gets to decide if a given expectation is valuable.  Or, more accurately, that a lot of people are assuming that *the opposing side* has an all-or-nothing assumption.  It's like both sides are trying to argue that *both* men and women's concerns are of equal value, but they each assume that the other side is coming from a place of valuing one over the other.  So when side A argues that a given concern of sex B is sometimes invalid, side B assumes that side A is *comprehensively and universally* dismissing the concerns of sex B in favor of sex A.  And likewise, when side B argues that a given concern of sex A is sometimes invalid, side A assumes that side B is *comprehensively and universally* dismissing the concerns of sex A in favor of sex B.  When, actually, I think both sides are coming from a position of "both men and women's concerns are of equal value". 

The difference, I think, is that different sides see different sexes as the underdog.  Side A is primed to think sex A needs defending, while side B is primed to think that sex B needs defending.  And so side A sees B's defense of sex B as defending the stronger side against the weaker side, while side B sees A's defense of sex A as likewise defending the stronger side against the weaker side.  Both sides respond by championing their perceived underdog all the more. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I agree with 42, and would like to add--there is often a strong smell of disrespect in relationships like this.  Not only does one (generally the guy) think that the spouse's priorities are unimportant, but he also thinks that doing such things is beneath him, which of course implies that since that is how his wife occupies her time, she is beneath him, too.  I think that that fuels some of the deep resentment in this thread.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Carol in Cal.

[SKL]

12 hours ago, frogger said:

 

I shared some of my story then promptly erased it because it's not mine to share but I know and have stayed in a home where the woman's sole contribution might "might" be that she swept the floor because her husband asked her to. No homeschooling, no career, no cooking, no licence to drive kids places, no maintainance skills, hell not even basic laundry. The man not only worked tons of overtime but took care of everything. Ev.er.y.thing. I watched him raise 4 kids and multiple nephews and run himself into the ground. His weekends were spent doing cleaning and food when he wasn't working tons of overtime as the sole breadwinner.  He dealt with school issues, discipline issues, then had to fix the car and pay the bills. Mostly she watched movies and played video games. The first time I experienced this I didn't know what to do as a guest. After a few years, if I was visiting, I'd do the work myself, as a guest while she watched t.v. 

 

 I also know three men personally that are now raising their ex's children that aren't biologically theirs because the woman is a flake and the children refused to live with their mom but chose their step-dad. The carry the entire mental load because the women aren't even in the picture anymore. I know it's only three though. I don't say it's a complete representation of the entire nation.

Trust me there is flakiness in both genders. 

It works so much better to work as a team but if you get someone who is a flake there are huge costs to divorce and you can't "just change" another adult. I will agree with that.

I can sympathize and want all couples to share burdens but what I really can't do is say it is always men. The majority of my personal experience tells me it's the other way around but I know others have different experiences and really each relationship has their own dynamics. 

So we can both agree that parents ought to be supported more. What we can't agree on is that all men fit this sterotype and all women are wonderful. 

 

Agree - I have a close male relative who married a person - I think she had depression or something.  He had his own issues - very poor EF and probably on the autism spectrum.  But he loved to cook.  He had the full-time job (lots of stress because of social and EF issues), he did all of the cooking, and nobody cleaned the house.  One day, some months into his domestic bliss, he commented to his wife (SAHW) that there was no place to put down the glass he was drinking out of.  She gave it to him good.  She was even more touchy and depressed after they had their only son.  But over a long time period, they eventually worked out an arrangement that kept their house from imploding.  I believe they both got counseling / meds at some point or other.  I haven't been over there in decades - I don't assume it's house beautiful - but they are still together and their son is loved and doing well.  I think that their mutual understanding that both have problems has been an important help to them.

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, forty-two said:

I agree that it's easier to let things go when you don't care about them.  But that's not the same as those things intrinsically not deserving to be cared about.  Often I think women - or whoever the party is who thinks a given thing deserves to be done - care more because they understand more.  AKA they are *right* to care, because those things *actually do matter*, because those things *actually make a positive difference*, because not doing those things really does lower the quality of life.  It's kind of a corollary to the mental load being necessary but non-obvious to the unskilled: how a given task relates to the bigger goals and ends of life is not obvious to all.  And it's easy to not care about a task when you don't understand how it contributes to the big picture.  But just because you don't understand doesn't mean there's nothing to understand.  AKA your failure to understand why something matters could very well be *your* failure of imagination, instead of being a sign of the task's intrinsic unimportance.  Just because one party finds it easier to slough off a bunch of expectations doesn't necessarily mean that party is *right* to be doing so.  "Easier" doesn't mean "better".

It's kind of like the idea that if you have no idea why a law was passed - you have no idea what the point was - then you actually have no business trying to repeal that law.  The fact that you can't imagine why anyone could ever have thought it was a good idea isn't a good argument for getting rid of the law, but rather is a sign you need to *better understand the reason for the law* before you start deciding what to do about it.  (Else you are on track for discovering the reason for the law the hard way.)  Before letting things go, it's worthwhile to consider the costs as well as the benefits.  If you can't think of a single good reason why someone would do something, it's a strong indication you have very little understanding of it.  (Likewise if you can't think of a single good reason why someone would *not* do something.) 

On average, women tend to have a greater focus on building and maintaining relationships than men.  So it's not surprising that women, on average, would have greater expectations around things that build and maintain relationships (such as remembering birthdays) than men - because they understand more of the value of relationships and the work that goes into building and maintaining relationships.  (My understanding is that binding families and communities together was traditionally considered one of the central contributions of women to the common good.) 

IDK, I don't want to discount the pernicious effect of media on men and women's expectations, or how the binding impetus of doing what others in your community are doing can just as easily be a force for evil instead a force for good.  One of the many reasons to re-examine why we do what we do is *because* what we are doing isn't working.  But just because a thing isn't worth the effort in our current situation doesn't mean the thing isn't worth the effort, period, or that cutting out the thing doesn't involve a genuine loss, even as we anticipate a net gain.

But the whole "if others don't value your expectations then your expectations aren't valuable" assumption - especially in the context of men not valuing the traditional concerns of women - it does seem far too related to dismissing the inherent value of the traditional concerns of women.  That in the conflict over how men often don't personally understand the intricacies of women's concerns (and so are prone to dismiss those concerns as unwarranted or unnecessary), there's this implicit assumption that men are *right* in their judgment that traditional women's concerns are indeed unnecessary.  Which I reject entirely.  Both on the general grounds that it's wrongheaded to judge things you don't understand and on the specific grounds that traditional women's concerns *are* inherently valuable.

~*~

FWIW, I'm coming at this as someone who, in my teens and 20s, *didn't* understand people or relationships and who didn't value traditional women's concerns or traditional female ways of relating.  I cheerfully sloughed off every expectation that didn't make sense to me.  But in my 30s, I've come to better understand people and relationships, enough so that all those expectations and habits that I dismissed as so much unnecessary effort - I now understand something of their value.  After years of being the sort of non-conforming woman who didn't have a lot of respect for traditional female ways of being and acting, I'm now starting to understand the sense and purpose and wisdom of so many of the things I used to unthinkingly reject.

~*~

IDK, it sort of feels like, in this thread, that there's this all-or-nothing assumption about who gets to decide if a given expectation is valuable.  Or, more accurately, that a lot of people are assuming that *the opposing side* has an all-or-nothing assumption.  It's like both sides are trying to argue that *both* men and women's concerns are of equal value, but they each assume that the other side is coming from a place of valuing one over the other.  So when side A argues that a given concern of sex B is sometimes invalid, side B assumes that side A is *comprehensively and universally* dismissing the concerns of sex B in favor of sex A.  And likewise, when side B argues that a given concern of sex A is sometimes invalid, side A assumes that side B is *comprehensively and universally* dismissing the concerns of sex A in favor of sex B.  When, actually, I think both sides are coming from a position of "both men and women's concerns are of equal value". 

The difference, I think, is that different sides see different sexes as the underdog.  Side A is primed to think sex A needs defending, while side B is primed to think that sex B needs defending.  And so side A sees B's defense of sex B as defending the stronger side against the weaker side, while side B sees A's defense of sex A as likewise defending the stronger side against the weaker side.  Both sides respond by championing their perceived underdog all the more. 

 

Oh yea, I do think you are right - I think women do tend to be more focused on social relationships and they are in fact valuable and take work to maintain.  I guess I was taken that as given in a way!  It's more certain expressions of that, and how we balance them.  For example, I used to send out Christmas cards, which I think was something that fell within that.  Also, I just enjoyed it.  I haven't now for a few years though - one year I had a new baby, and then I had a job focused around Christmas and it was too much.  So I dropped it - there are other ways to maintain connections that are less stressful when I am busy, and I hope at some point too to get back to it.

But I think it's easy to get caught feeling like certain things have to happen, and almost a sense of doom around them not happening, but it's not really something so vital.  I have a friend, really the wife of a friend, who I think has this problem - she is a person who has a very strong sense that things should be a certain way, and it makes her very stressed when they are not.  It seems  like she has an extra hard time stepping back and saying "how else might this look and still be ok."

Anyway, that was my main idea, that it is a good thing to step back and say, what will be lost and gained if I don't do this, or do it in a different way?  Can I stop it for a while, or is it something I feel I need to do mainly to achieve some arbitrary standard, or because it's what my parents did? etc

 

 

[BooksandBoys]

12 hours ago, frogger said:

 

I shared some of my story then promptly erased it because it's not mine to share but I know and have stayed in a home where the woman's sole contribution might "might" be that she swept the floor because her husband asked her to. No homeschooling, no career, no cooking, no licence to drive kids places, no maintainance skills, hell not even basic laundry. The man not only worked tons of overtime but took care of everything. Ev.er.y.thing. I watched him raise 4 kids and multiple nephews and run himself into the ground. His weekends were spent doing cleaning and food when he wasn't working tons of overtime as the sole breadwinner.  He dealt with school issues, discipline issues, then had to fix the car and pay the bills. Mostly she watched movies and played video games. The first time I experienced this I didn't know what to do as a guest. After a few years, if I was visiting, I'd do the work myself, as a guest while she watched t.v. 

 

 I also know three men personally that are now raising their ex's children that aren't biologically theirs because the woman is a flake and the children refused to live with their mom but chose their step-dad. The carry the entire mental load because the women aren't even in the picture anymore. I know it's only three though. I don't say it's a complete representation of the entire nation.

Trust me there is flakiness in both genders. 

It works so much better to work as a team but if you get someone who is a flake there are huge costs to divorce and you can't "just change" another adult. I will agree with that.

I can sympathize and want all couples to share burdens but what I really can't do is say it is always men. The majority of my personal experience tells me it's the other way around but I know others have different experiences and really each relationship has their own dynamics. 

So we can both agree that parents ought to be supported more. What we can't agree on is that all men fit this sterotype and all women are wonderful. 

 

It seems to be that at some point, some of the posters started feeling like all of us posting that mental load issues are really hard, etc were also glomming onto gender lines.

I don’t think that’s actually the case. I have never thought this is just a gender thing. And I never will. It’s just that all of us (in this thread) telling stories here happen to be telling those stories from the perspective of women who carry the mental load. 

Like you, I know a couple of women who don’t contribute. One is a SAHM with her one child in school who is very similar to the woman you described, only the husband didn’t do much more, so they live in squalor. Another woman I knew incredibly well for over a decade did not do any household tasks (also a SAHM with kids in school), but between her husband and me (I was the multiple times a week babysitter), we kept the house to a reasonably clean level. But that means that a 14 year-old babysitter was vacuuming, doing laundry, and doing sinkfuls of dishes. She did carry one portion of the mental load - the social schedule. She enjoyed that part and did it well. But he carried the rest. One of my good friends had such severe anxiety at one point that while she was able to do the household work, all mental load went into her husband. 

I’ve never claimed that this mental load thing falls completely along gender lines. It doesn’t. But carrying 90% plus of the mental load is a crushing weight, whether you are male or female. And, for me, that was the conversation. Not “bad, lazy men” but, “holy crap, carrying the mental load sucks.” 

I happen to carry the mental load in my marriage. It’s crushing sometimes. We have A LOT going on here. But, as I said, my husband is now (again) willing to fully contribute within his own abilities. He’s a good father (again). He loves his work and earns a good living (even though he’s scattered at work too). And even though I still carry the mental load, the fact that he does what I ask most of the time makes all the difference in my ability to carry that mental load. Also, my choice to accept that the mental load is mine and will stay that way, helps me so much. He’s a (mostly) good guy who is very, very scattered. And he’s trying. That’s important. He’s slowly becoming open to scaffolding techniques like alarms and to-do lists and routines. That’s life-changing for both of us.   But he had to come to his own realization that he needed that scaffolding. 

Oh, and I’m naturally a scattered person. I use alarms, lists, calendars, routines, post-it’s. I sometimes ask other people to help me remember things (I’m looking at you, mom). I don’t carry the mental load because I’m naturally good at it (I recall that that was claimed earlier in this thread too). I carry the mental load because I have to. And I read books and take classes on better mental load management so I can do it better. My more naturally organized friends think I’m over the top with all my lists and routines, but I need them so that I can manage the mental load. The buck stops here. 🙂