Why Teach Literature?

[shinyhappypeople]

What is your motivation in teaching literature?  Why do you think it's important to learn story structure, plot, literary devices, etc.?  Is there really an advantage to teaching literature in a formal, structured way versus having a child read widely and often?  

I'm thinking (overthinking?) about these questions and would enjoy hearing what others think.  My goals are for my daughters to love reading (a stretch for one kid, fait accompli for the other) and engage thoughtfully with big ideas.  What is gained by formal study?  What might be lost?

Edited August 12, 2018 by shinyhappypeople

[klmama]

Learning about structure, literary devices, etc., enables a person to more fully engage with literature (or movies) and with others interested in discussing.  It doesn't mean that everything read has to be analyzed.  In fact, I remember hearing SWB suggest not analyzing works that really move the child. 

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, klmama said:

Learning about structure, literary devices, etc., enables a person to more fully engage with literature (or movies) and with others interested in discussing.  It doesn't mean that everything read has to be analyzed.  In fact, I remember hearing SWB suggest not analyzing works that really move the child. 

This. You get more out of it if you know how it's done, and how to look for the multilayered meanings below the face of the text.

Btw, some children are quite capable of picking up on structure and literary devices just by copious reading and discussion about books, without formal direct instruction or work sheets etc. Both my kids were like that. At some point in high school, I handed them the book Essential Literary terms, so they could familiarize themselves with the terminology. But we never "taught" literature - they learned about literature mostly by reading.

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by regentrude

[Lori D.]

On 8/12/2018 at 1:35 PM, klmama said:

Learning about structure, literary devices, etc., enables a person to more fully engage with literature (or movies) and with others interested in discussing.  It doesn't mean that everything read has to be analyzed.  In fact, I remember hearing SWB suggest not analyzing works that really move the child. 

What klmama said. (:D  And check out EKS's post in this past thread: "Ways to Teach Literature".

And, copy-pasting some of my thoughts from a past thread below. Enjoy your entrance into the Great Conversation with the Great Books! Warmest regards, Lori D.

_______________________

"Don't kill the love of reading/literature -- or just a "like" or "okay-ness" with literature -- by too much formal writing/discussion. Even if you have a variety of types of writing assignments. Those who are starting of with "just a little informal discussion" and not with every book -- that's an excellent way to ease into more formal literature gently, while not killing the love through too much too quick, and while allowing the analysis portions of your student's brain to continue to develop.

Esp. if you have a math-science-focused student, or a student with dyslexia or other LDs, or a student who is weak in reading or not that interested in reading -- absolutely start very light, do it together, do NOT discuss every book, don't "analyze" a beloved book, and do very little writing to start with -- maybe a paragraph response to one book per quarter.

It is VERY hard on a student (esp. if the student fits one of those descriptions in the previous paragraph) to be a "class of one", so that all the discussion falls on just the one student. Ideas to alleviate that:

- Try giving your student the guide to ask YOU the questions.
- Or, together, pick a few questions in advance, and each of you commit to answer those questions.
- Try expanding the size of your "group" for discussion -- include siblings, friends, or host a monthly book club with other students.
- Run with some books that are of high interest to your student, or that your student picked to do -- you can create a literature unit out of all kinds of genres, or follow an author's work, etc
- Listen to SWB's audio lecture on "What Is Literary Analysis and When, Why, and How to Teach It".
- Look over her handout for that lecture for ideas of types of questions to slowly work in to.
- Listen to Andrew Kern's audio session on "Teaching Literature without Killing the Book".
____________________

Good stuff in these past threads:

- What kinds of questions do you ask your kids when reading?
- When to start literature more formally?
- How do you do literature and balance/schedule writing assignments -- asking for 9th grade, but some good info in there for middle school, too
- "Just reading" vs. using literature guides
- Reading books without doing papers/critiques
- Doing TWTM with a high school student who isn't ready for rhetoric level
___________________

And I love these past threads for seeing the kinds of discussions that high school Literature can bring about (not every book, of course! and often the very BEST conversations are the spontaneous ones in the car while driving somewhere, as the Literature your student has been reading and discussing with you triggers thoughts and discussion on topics of personal interest!):

- Sir Gawain and the Green Knight -- input needed please!
- Jane Eyre and boys
- What's up with Wuthering Heights -- not only discussion on the book, but also on the idea of literary analysis and whether/not it is useful

Good luck to all as you start your Literature adventures -- and ENJOY the journey! Warmest regards, Lori D."

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lori D.

[Another Lynn]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

This. You get more out of it if you know how it's done, and how to look for the multilayered meanings below the face of the text.

Btw, some children are quite capable of picking up on structure and literary devices just by copious reading and discussion about books, without formal direct instruction or work sheets etc. Both my kids were like that. At some point in high school, I handed them the book Essential Literary terms, so they could familiarize themselves with the terminology. But we never "taught" literature - they learned about literature mostly by reading.

 

I don't want to put words in regentrude's mouth, but I agree with the idea that sufficient knowledge of literary structure and terms doesn't have to be super formal. 

I'm definitely not a "literature person," but I love the simplicity with which Adam Andrews approaches the subject.  If you want an "easy button" you might try the Teaching the Classics materials.

[LLucy]

As my reply, I share with you a bookmarked thread https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/534288-high-school-english-wo-literature/ .  I had one particularly one-sided, STEM-oriented child, and  I find it inspiring reading. Note especially Tsuga's and Hunter's contributions.

-- LL

[J-rap]

I think the above but even more.  I think great literature can be eye-opening, and a great way to view and think about different life experiences with the advantage of seeing the whole story from beginning to end:  how different things affect and play into the ultimate outcome, how lives have ups and downs, how many people can be impacted by one thing, how tough and yet how beautiful this world is, and so much more.  Honestly, I think reading good literature is one of the most important things we did in homeschooling.

Edited August 12, 2018 by J-rap

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, shinyhappypeople said:

... Is there really an advantage to teaching literature in a formal, structured way versus having a child read widely and often?  
... What is gained by formal study?  What might be lost?

I don't see this as an "either/or" type of proposition, but rather that your one "goal" or "view of literature" stated here enhances the other. Reading literature in a more formal structured way enhances my interest and engagement in not only the work but in Literature as a whole. Reading widely and often is enjoyable and it also encourages me to think more about Literature. Yes, some reading I do with a goal or view toward "digging deep", and some reading I do is with the goal of relaxation or "comfort food". It doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to appreciate lovely writing and notice depth in a work that I am primarily reading "for fun", or that I "have" to read certain classics -- and analyze every page of it -- just because it's on a classics list.  It's absolutely fine to decide for yourself what kind of goals (or no goals) you have for reading each individual work. ; )
 

1 hour ago, shinyhappypeople said:

...What is gained by formal study?  What might be lost?

Nothing is ever "lost" by reading! (:P  I can see how you might tire of a work by "putting it under a microscope" for too long, but the solution to that is to stop over-scrutinizing the work. (:P

I don't mean to make light of your questions, because they are good questions to ask to help you find the balance for YOUR homeschool, YOUR children, your OWN reading journey. : )

I find it helpful to substitute a different subject in place of "Literature" to answer these questions. Example: just because we did a formal study of Science in high school didn't mean we had to stop watching lighter Science shows and documentaries. Or that we "lost" something (an appreciation for lighter Science shows) just because we studied Science more formally. Just like with Literature, the formal/deeper study and analysis of Science through labs gave us more info, more depth, and more appreciation for how the universe works for when we watched the lighter Science shows.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Lori D.

[Rosie_0801]

It's for the vocabulary and thinking skills. It's handy to have a wide vocabulary and it's handy to have different frameworks in your head to think with.

[nixpix5]

I am the super crazy mom that loves literature and discussing it deeply. I have been known (read as 3 days ago) to watch Labyrinth with my kids and pause periodically to discuss how we find themes to compare and contrast with Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan within the characterization, heroes journey, plot, and so forth. My kids get totally jazzed by it and that could be due to my own enthusiasm with it. I see a ton of value in doing this. It helps kids learn to not compartmentalize knowledge but synthesize, to look for meaning and symbolism, to recognize how frameworks are constantly repeated and given a new veneer (great for discussing political ideas and seeing themes there), I could go on. It really does extrapolate over into other disciplines and starting with literature gives it a fun mental exercise and hunting out themes then learning how to support your theory based off of proof you find in the lit (also good practice for later science skills). 

 

It is not for everyone and not for every age but I do so see the value.

[FairProspects]

A timely article on this very topic.

What does immersing yourself in a book do to your brain?

[Ellie]

On 8/12/2018 at 3:26 PM, shinyhappypeople said:

What is your motivation in teaching literature?  Why do you think it's important to learn story structure, plot, literary devices, etc.?  Is there really an advantage to teaching literature in a formal, structured way versus having a child read widely and often?  

I'm thinking (overthinking?) about these questions and would enjoy hearing what others think.  My goals are for my daughters to love reading (a stretch for one kid, fait accompli for the other) and engage thoughtfully with big ideas.  What is gained by formal study?  What might be lost?

It stretches our children's minds. It provides exposure to things they wouldn't necessarily have known about before, and writers and whatnot that they now love that they wouldn't even have known about if they hadn't been required to do it. It helps them become better writers.

Having said that, let me say this: I let my dc get their literature study in college. :-) I read to them for many years, and happily, both became good readers of all sorts of things. But I did not study literature with them.

[hollyhock2]

Have you listened to SWB's audio lecture about literary analysis? It might be worth a listen. She makes a lot of sense to me.

[Earthmerlin]

On August 12, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Lori D. said:

What klmama said. (:D  And check out EKS's post in this past thread: "Ways to Teach Literature".

And, copy-pasting some of my thoughts from a past thread below. Enjoy your entrance into the Great Conversation with the Great Books! Warmest regards, Lori D.

_______________________

"Don't kill the love of reading/literature -- or just a "like" or "okay-ness" with literature -- by too much formal writing/discussion. Even if you have a variety of types of writing assignments. Those who are starting of with "just a little informal discussion" and not with every book -- that's an excellent way to ease into more formal literature gently, while not killing the love through too much too quick, and while allowing the analysis portions of your student's brain to continue to develop.

Esp. if you have a math-science-focused student, or a student with dyslexia or other LDs, or a student who is weak in reading or not that interested in reading -- absolutely start very light, do it together, do NOT discuss every book, don't "analyze" a beloved book, and do very little writing to start with -- maybe a paragraph response to one book per quarter.

It is VERY hard on a student (esp. if the student fits one of those descriptions in the previous paragraph) to be a "class of one", so that all the discussion falls on just the one student. Ideas to alleviate that:

- Try giving your student the guide to ask YOU the questions.
- Or, together, pick a few questions in advance, and each of you commit to answer those questions.
- Try expanding the size of your "group" for discussion -- include siblings, friends, or host a monthly book club with other students.
- Run with some books that are of high interest to your student, or that your student picked to do -- you can create a literature unit out of all kinds of genres, or follow an author's work, etc
- Listen to SWB's audio lecture on "What Is Literary Analysis and When, Why, and How to Teach It".
- Look over her handout for that lecture for ideas of types of questions to slowly work in to.
- Listen to Andrew Kern's audio session on "Teaching Literature without Killing the Book".
____________________

Good stuff in these past threads:

- What kinds of questions do you ask your kids when reading?
- When to start literature more formally?
- How do you do literature and balance/schedule writing assignments -- asking for 9th grade, but some good info in there for middle school, too
- "Just reading" vs. using literature guides
- Reading books without doing papers/critiques
- Doing TWTM with a high school student who isn't ready for rhetoric level
___________________

And I love these past threads for seeing the kinds of discussions that high school Literature can bring about (not every book, of course! and often the very BEST conversations are the spontaneous ones in the car while driving somewhere, as the Literature your student has been reading and discussing with you triggers thoughts and discussion on topics of personal interest!):

- Sir Gawain and the Green Knight -- input needed please!
- Jane Eyre and boys
- What's up with Wuthering Heights -- not only discussion on the book, but also on the idea of literary analysis and whether/not it is useful

Good luck to all as you start your Literature adventures -- and ENJOY the journey! Warmest regards, Lori D."

Lori, in one of the threads you mentioned here was a suggestion of using 'Movies as Literature'. I like this idea! I wonder if you have a free recommendation for elementary? 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Earthmerlin

[Miss Tick]

2 hours ago, Earthmerlin said:

Lori, in one of the threads you mentioned here was a suggestion of using 'Movies as Literature'. I like this idea! I wonder if you have a free recommendation for elementary? 

I'm not Lori, but for elementary you might like the idea if using short films for literature. I'm exploring the idea for my co-op class this year. I kept wanting to do some movies but I need guidance and the one book I found uses full-length movies which is not a good match for an hour long weekly co-op class. There is a seller on Teachers Pay Teachers who has a few literature units tied too short films, and I thought I might get one and check it out.

 

[Lori D.]

4 hours ago, Earthmerlin said:

Lori, in one of the threads you mentioned here was a suggestion of using 'Movies as Literature'. I like this idea! I wonder if you have a free recommendation for elementary? 

As with Literature, I always suggest exercising caution about "doing formal analysis" with elementary ages -- quoting myself from a previous post, and applying it to analyzing films:

"...sometimes for some students the black-and-white/fact-based thinking of younger ages runs the risk of turning reading Literature into a sort of checklist mentality and students stop there -- permanently: "Found the setting, plot elements, symbolism, and a simile, check, check, check, check! My work here is done!" -- instead of being able to continue to mature and go deeper in the reading and understanding of a work in the high school and adult years, and ultimately finding personal meaning and application, and being able to engage in "The Great Conversation" of the classics that authors and readers have engaged in for centuries..."

That said, you might check out the FREE lesson plans at Teach With Movies. Click on the link that says "Age", and you'll get an alphabetical listing of movies, and each one has discussion questions, and assignments (written essay answers to thought questions), and a a pdf worksheet of exploration questions. I suggest that with pre-high school students, you just read through the material for familiarity, and then use only 1 or 2 of the questions that would be of high interest to your student to spark dinner-time or in-the-car informal conversation about the movie and the themes/ideas it raised.

And at *any* age, you also want to be very careful to not ruin enjoyment of literature (or films) by over-analyzing or over-discussing. It is GOOD to "just enjoy" some books and movies!  I'd suggest starting with very informal discussion after watching a movie (DON'T interrupt a movie to discuss in the midst! (:0 ). Keep it short. Keep it as genuine conversation -- run with personal opinions. Stop before the child feels like this is "turning into school" or an inquisition (lol). Over time, you can add a follow-up question or two and quietly move the child towards supporting their opinion with an example/detail from the movie by modeling that:

"My favorite part/character was ____ because ____."
"What was your favorite part/character?" "Why was that your favorite, or what did you like about it/them?"
"Did you guess that the character was going to do/choose that?" "How did you know?" 
"What would you have done/chosen?" "Why?"

Along about middle school, or whenever the individual student is starting to enjoy discussing and digging deeper, then use some of the thought questions after watching the movie -- and be sure to go INTO the movie by giving the student a "heads up" that this movie will be a little different --  "We're going to enjoy watching the movie, but afterwards, we're also going to discuss it a little more formally afterwards, so you might want to put your "thinking glasses" on while watching this movie."

All of that is JMO -- every parent knows their students and their students' interests/abilities best! : )
 

1 hour ago, SusanC said:

...the idea if using short films for literature. I'm exploring the idea for my co-op class this year. I kept wanting to do some movies but I need guidance...

Susan, the Teach With Movies website has FREE lesson plans using a short excerpt from a longer movie to teach a specific cinematic/literary device. (Click on the link that says "Snippets and Shorts".) Some of those might work for you. Note: since most of the films are PG-13 / R-rated, so I would guess these lessons are geared for grades 8-12.

 

Some of the Pixar shorts (vol. 1 and vol. 2) might work for you. The web article "5 Pixar Short Films to Use in Secondary ELA" has discussion questions to go with 5 of the movies. You can also add your own questions to discuss how the films develop character (choices, actions/reactions, emotions) and build story cinematically (through framing, lighting, color, editing, motion, etc.).

"The Seven Best Films for ETL Students" -- at Kieran Donaghy's blog, are links to 7 short films, and by each film is a link to a lesson plan. While the plans are more for prompting general discussion for students learning English, these might be a starting point for you -- just add in some questions about what film techniques did the students see in the film that helped them understand what the character was thinking or feeling, or that foreshadowed what would happen, or created mood -- that type of thing. : )

"25 Films for Exploring Race, Bias, and Identity with Students" -- You might use an excerpt from a film like To Kill a Mockingbird (1962) or In The Heat of the Night (1967), and then use some of these mini-films to go with it to prompt discussion about racism and prejudice.

[Earthmerlin]

Thanks. It's mostly for my own edification, really. I don't really pick apart books or movies except to add genuine comments when they organically arise. I don't believe analyzing such things is too appropriate with an 8 yr old (esp. when she's so engrossed in the story). Having said that, I feel it's always good to have a plethora of tools in your bag in order to take things to the next level when appropriate to do so.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Earthmerlin

[Lori D.]

7 hours ago, Earthmerlin said:

Thanks. It's mostly for my own edification, really. I don't really pick apart books or movies except to add genuine comments when they organically arise. I don't believe analyzing such things is too appropriate with an 8 yr old (esp. when she's so engrossed in the story). Having said that, I feel it's always good to have a plethora of tools in your bag in order to take things to the next level when appropriate to do so.

So sorry, I misunderstood! : )

If looking for a resource for yourself, then you might consider Understanding Movies (Giannetti), a very solid college intro level book for understanding cinematic elements and how films are put together, so that you can then see how they support themes and the filmmaker's vision. It's the text that was used in one of my early film analysis courses in college (a MUCH earlier edition! (:P ), and Giannetti regularly updates the content and includes new films as examples in the text. It looks like there is a ridiculously-overpriced 14th edition out now, but if you don't mind not having the newest edition, check out the 11th edition (2007) -- I see Amazon has it for $2 + shipping. (:D

If you're not looking for something that in-depth, then I can recommend a book that is a very nice beginner overview of film history, techniques, and genres: The Young Oxford Book of the Movies (Parkinson). I used this one with high school students when I created an Intro to Film Analysis class. Alas, this terrific book is 30 years old now, and I dearly wish they would update it.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Lori D.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Overheard at lunch today:  

DS to DD: Where are you in Percy Jackson?

DD: I'm at the part where xyz, I only have about two chapters to go.  

DS:  Oh ok, it's mostly just denouement from there on, you're past the climax.

DD: That's what I thought.   

---------------

Teaching literature gives:

- a vocabulary to discuss stories.  Similar to how discussing grammar gives us the specific vocabulary we need to discuss language

- A way to compare different stories and a way to discuss stories that don't fit the standard story arc

- A way to improve writing

- A way to discuss different styles

- Recognizing context: when was this story written, what was happening in the world at the time? Was this social commentary?

You don't necessarily need to break out with a text book, we certainly don't, but give them the vocabulary they ned to discuss literature.  I googled a list of literary devices and just try to point them out when I see them in our reading.  I really like the workshop from Teaching the Classics... if you the parent have a good basis in understanding the workings of literature, it's easier to teach them more organically.  

---------------

There's no need to do a deep analysis of everything we read.  But so far, no one in my family has found literary discussions to be painful or "school-y" because it's just how we talk about books.  And we talk about books A LOT!  And movies, for that matter.  It is so, so, so much more interesting to discuss if Javert (policeman in Les Miserables, my kids just read a comic adaptation so it's on our minds) is a villain or why not, why he commits suicide, etc, then to simply discuss "Did ya like the book?" or "Who was your favorite character?"  Obviously those questions have their place, but they are just so superficial.