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How do you "do" literature? And balance/schedule writing assignments?


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I need some advice/discussion/alternative ideas about how to "do" literature.  Not what to read, or how many books, but the actual mechanics.  What does a lit/English class look like at your house?  My kid is only a 7th grader, but she is definitely ready for more than just reading a book and having the basic Logic-stage discussion and writing about one of the WTM Lit Analysis questions.  I'm experimenting with different things, and reading up on different philosophies of how to teach lit, but I'd love to hear from some of you about how you do it.

 

We don't do any worksheet-typed stuff for lit, and I'm not interested in doing that - no end of chapter or end of book comprehension questions. We talk about the books, I know she's read them, so I don't need anything like that.  My goal is for us to be having deeper discussions about the books, and for her to write about them.  I realize I can (should be able to?) do this without a curriculum.   But I have been trying out various study guides to try and help me deepen the discussion beyond the very surface level.  And so far what I've tried hasn't worked too well.  We tried a couple of the Garlic Press lit guides, and it was just too much - overkill - for one book.  We also tried LLLOTR (just the chapter notes) and a similar home-made guide for The Hobbit.  I look at some of the Progeny Press guides, and the depth of questions they contain really appeals to me.  But - this approach, discussing after each chapter or every few chapters, really doesn't seem to work for us.  It breaks up the story, it bogs down, it makes the book into a chore rather than a joy.  Not what I'm trying to accomplish!  I was reading MCT's parent guide for one of the lit trilogies and it was reminding me that if our lit study practice results in *less* love of reading and literature, we are failing.  So, I need to do something different.

 

If you use lit guides, how do you use them?

 

If you don't use lit guides, how does lit disucssion/writing work at your house?

 

I guess I should go back to the basics - read the book to the end, have a discussion, have her write a paper.  Do your students write about all the books that you study in lit class (I'm not talking about independent reading, just books you read and discuss together).  I have the idea that this is the right way to go about it, but then my dd is also doing writing assignments from a writing program, as well as writing in history and science, so it feels like too much writing to write about every book and to write weekly in the other subjects, too.  There is also the issue that my dd is just learning to write essays this year, so getting assigned to create and execute a thesis-driven essay is actually a pretty huge task for her, and it takes time.  So writing assignments keep lagging behind the reading, and we're getting behind ourselves.  Do we just let writing about some books go?

 

If your student does writing across the curriculum, are they writing in all their classes at the same time, or do they alternate? Do you alternate intentionally/on a schedule, or some other way?  

 

Reading back through this post, it sounds muddled.  I guess what I'm basically looking for is advice on two things:

1) How to step it up in lit studies without killing the joy

2) How to manage writing across the curriculum assignments - quantity, pacing, subjects, etc.

 

ETA: I'm asking here on the HS board because I'd love to hear about what you did in junior high to get ready for high school, as well as what you are doing now in high school.  I always do better at planning when I see where I'm going in a year or two, as well as where I am now.

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Anybody with BTDT advice?  I relistened to SWB's Literary Analysis and Writing lectures yesterday, which did help clear my mind.  She articulated what I was feeling - that you can kill a book by spending too much time on it, and that it's better to err on the side of less analysis rather than more.  I'm thinking of forging ahead with read/discuss for all assigned books, and writing for about a third of them, in rough rotation with writing in other topics.  I'm thinking for a 7th grader, one essay a week is plenty, though she suggests two for high school.  

 

I love SWB's audio lectures!  :001_wub:  I find them very grounding.  More so than re-reading WTM, which often makes me feel like I should be adding more to our days.  The lectures are a breath of fresh air - keeping it real!

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I have no high school BTDT advice.   My two sons will be doing 9th grade work beginning next year.  I am a "low written output" kind of a teacher by many standards.  I have two pencil phobic boys who do not want to write.  Their written output will increase slightly next year, and my plan is to increase it a bit each year.  See me in a few years, and I will tell you how this went.  :D

 

However, we read and discuss as much of the best literature and poetry that I can cram into a twelve month calendar.  Our discussions are very organic.  I do not use lit guides and never have.  I also teach a lit analysis class that my boys attend at our co op, and we get a bit more organized for this, though it is still just reading and discussion.  For the class, we discuss action, protagonist, antagonist and any literary devices that I find as I read along with them.  After I read Animal Farm aloud this past summer, I got my hands on a lit guide and read this explanation to the boys so they would understand it in context of the political/government stuff.  I am not anti-lit guides when they bring something to the table.  We read Lord of the Flies this summer, as well, and no lit guide was necessary.

 

I am interested in the BTDT, as well, but my philosophy is pretty set, I think. 

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I'll throw in our experience for the record. Generally, we separated literature and writing.  :tongue_smilie: Probably not what you wanted to hear! But we usually had a writing curriculum that my kids were doing (Classical Writing, IEW, LAOW, Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition, others) and combining writing and lit was an exception not the rule for us. Also, the vast majority of books my kids read were read independently without accountability questions, family discussion or required essays. We did do some of that, but not every semester, every year.  

 

When we did do lit study, I usually used a Progeny Press guide and occasionally parts of a Total Language Plus guide. We also used the Hewitt materials for a year and had a book club that included great book discussion.  

 

In high school, my kids have been part of a lit tutorial.  There is weekly discussion. Not only does the teacher love the class, love the books and love passing his passion to the kids, but there is opportunity for discussion since there are at least 5 kids in the group. But he doesn't include writing so we continue to do that at home with our own materials. And I'm really good with that because his class is so excellent. I found my attempt at regular discussion at home fell short because it was just one or possibly two of my kids and me and it was really hard for me to keep up with their reading as well as my reading, my studies, my stuff. The best book discussion experience I had at home were the years I ran a middle school girls book club. 

 

Lisa

 

 

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Lisa, thanks for sharing! I was afraid this thread was just going to be us Logic Stage moms talking to each other again!  :lol: (you know I love you all, right?)

 

Can you tell me what you did with the Progeny Press guides?  I have seen the Frankenstein guide, and I'm super impressed with it, but I worry that it will wind up with us beating the book to death - it's just so very dense, with tons of interesting discussion topics.  I think this is the kind of thing I'd tend to overdo.  

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I had an average writer and a struggling writer, so I had a lower volume of writing output overall -- both compared to others, and to what I WISH we had done, but, oh well, you play the hand that's dealt you ;)

 

It's hard to give you a specific "game plan", as every student and their abilities (and thus what you can expect of them) varies widely. Also, the level of ability in every student increases during the high school years, so expectations and requirements change with each year of high school -- so how you "do" literature and writing in 9th grade look very different from what it looks like in 11th or 12th grade.

 

A few general comments related to how we "did" literature:

1. Most of the writing in high school was NOT tied to the literature.

2. Not all literature was written about, although virtually all formally assigned literature was discussed.

3. We chose to do the majority of the actual reading aloud together (for several reasons specific to our family's needs) -- most families are doing solo reading; so what we did may not work for much of anyone else.

 

As far as writing and the literature:

1. In the middle school/early high school years, a short (1-3 paragraph) answer to a discussion question or writing assignment idea from a literature guide is very helpful.

2. We averaged writing about literature about once every 3-4 weeks; and most were short assignments (1-3 paragraphs). About 2x/year we shot for a longer paper -- one was a history/science research paper, and one was a longer literary analysis paper; we were doing weekly lab reports and timed essays from prompts, plus working through a writing program for the bulk of the writing.

3. Compare/contrast papers are a much easier "in" for young high school students attempting literary analysis essays.

4. Windows to the World has a great, specific, step-by-step unit on how to write a literary analysis essay.

5. Several short (1-3 paragraphs) pieces of writing on different types of questions over the course of several weeks of reading a longer more complex piece of writing can be more beneficial to young high school students than one long piece of writing (save that for the later high school years when the student is really "getting" how to analyze and discuss literature).

6. Reader responses are useful writing assignments in the later high school years and prep the student for college literary analysis essays. (See Tullia's two posts: "If you're frustrated with discussing history and literature with a high school student" AND "More about response papers and their context".)

 

I summed up my overall thoughts on teaching writing, expectations about writing, and links to loads of resources about writing in this past thread: "Can we discuss apathetic writers and college prep."

 

Literature suggestions:

1. I suggest using a formal literature program to start you off (in grade 7, or 8, or 9) to glean from, and to get ideas for how you can make a Lit. study flow for YOUR family.

2. Individual guides all along the way are helpful for YOU for discussion questions and writing assignment ideas. GLEAN from the guide -- only use parts that are useful. Do NOT use every bit of the guide!! Skip anything that is "fill-in-the-blank" or "busywork". Only pick a few questions that seem to be prompting useful discussion. one writing assignment from a guide -- better yet, let your student pick the question most of interest to THEM -- or let them come up with a topic that the guide's writing assignments might trigger for the student.

3. Cover a wide variety of types of works each year (novels, novellas, short stories, poetry, essays, plays, biography).

4. Cover works of interest to your student (for crucial buy-in!!), and sprinkle in some of the works you feel are "musts" but that you know aren't going to go down as well.

5. Don't over discuss. Comparisons are a great way to start discussion. And a lot of discussions end up being informal after the fact while driving in the car. ;)

6. Your student is a class of one, so that puts a heavy weight on the student to always have an answer. Don't press if you are getting laconic "yes", "no" or shoulder shrug answers. Move on to a different question or chapter. Or be done for the day -- that's okay too. Not every discussion question or every day is going to yield bountiful discussion. ;)

 

For more details on how our family "did" literature, see post #6 of "Doing Literature with my 9th grader", below. I wanted to give you the benefit of LOTS of responses, though, so that's why I'm "punting" you to linked threads. ;) BEST of luck as you find your own way! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

Definition / benefits of a Great Books study:
- SWB's explanation of what a Great Books study is
- What are the benefits of doing a Great Books study as opposed to traditional route?
- What do you think: is the reading of fictional Great Books important?

Preparation for a Great Books study:
- Preparing our DC to read the Great Books?
- Which 20 books help prepare for reading the Great Books
- Which would be best for preparation of reading the Great Books
- How do I choose Great Books when I haven't read most of them?

Transitioning into a Great Books study:
- Where do you start with a high school boy who has never read classic lit?
- Moving away from a boxed curriculum and toward TWTM approach for lit. and history (how do you transition)

- TOG vs. doing it ourselves ala WTM

How do you actually DO it:

- Doing literature with my 9th grader
- Great Books question (how do you do it)

- Questions about how you do literature with your homeschoolers (do you read together or solo)
- Please Share How You Do History ala WTM "Great Books"
- Does Anyone Do History and/or Literature WTM or WEM Way?

- Doing WTM with a high school student who isn't ready for Rhetoric Level
- I Don't Think We Are Cut Out To For The "Great Books"
- Tell Me I Can Really Do WTM At Home For High School

- How do you find the time to pre-read lit. books (so you can discuss)

 

Making your own Literature study:
- If you create your own high school lit.

- Just reading vs. using literature guides

- Literary spoof, satire, sarcasm, anyone? (making a study on parody/satire)

- Have you ever done an "author's study"?

- Fairy Tale unit for high school

- Need ideas... classics: Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc.)

- Can I feel dumb here and ask about Victorian era, Pride & Prejudice and British Lit? (19th Century Female Authors study)

- Anybody know of a fantasy & science fiction course? (fantasy and sci-fi)

- Science Fiction, and, Science Fiction Unit (sci-fi)

- High Literature which is encouraging (inspiring classics)


Threads that are examples of a Great Book discussion in action:
- Sir Gawain And The Green Knight -- Need Help Please
- Jane Eyre and boys

- What's Up with Wuthering Heights

Balance -- Great Books, but not going overboard:
- Life beyond the Great Books? Heresy?

Resources:
- Great Books study -- what resources are you using?
- Need a Literature Guide for any book
- So what is a good program for teaching lit. analysis
- What Do You Use To Learn About The Worldview Expressed In A Particular Book

 

- SWB's hand-out on "What is Literary Analysis? And When to Teach It" 

- SWB's audio lecture download that further fleshes out this topic

- Andrew Kern on "Teaching Literature Without Killing the Book or the Student" (scroll down, 3/4 down to free lectures from 2012)

- David Kern & Brian Phillips podcast discuss:  "On Teaching Literature Without Killing It".


How to credit it on a transcript:
- How to show Great Books on a transcript
- Great Books on transcript
- Great Books and high school credits

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We actually enjoy talking about lit in comparison to other works or analyzing perspective from historical/contemporary perspectives, etc.  I would say our lit discussions are far from typical, but they are interesting and thought-provoking.   

 

As far as papers, this yr b/c dd is taking such a heavy load and her languages consume so much time, we have decided to come up with an alternative approach.  She gets the week after we finish a work or compilation of works (like short stories or poems) to write her paper.   (Same with history.  When she is writing a paper for a subject, she gets a week and it is the only thing she is focusing on for that subject.)  

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Do you have The Well Educated Mind?  I used the questions in that to help deepen our discussions.  The questions are more varied, more specific, I think than in the WTM, and they can go very deep.  It seemed a more natural starting point.  I tried instituting a reading journal as described in the WEM, but my boys balked at that.  I also had a hard time getting them to learn to start marking up their books, but I like the suggestions in the WEM for how to engage more with your books -- mark them up by underlining favorite quotes, or beautiful sentences, copy them into your reading journal.  The WEM also has broad historical overviews of the different genres which was helpful to me.

 

I didn't expect an essay a week in middle school, and didn't expect an essay a week just on literature in high school.  There were generally 4 essays or larger writing projects a month, in high school, but it was in different subjects.  Literary essays usually arose from our conversations, especially when the teen had a strong opinion about something. I'd point out what a great essay topic he had and we'd talk about the kinds of arguments that could be used to support that opinion.

 

I used Teaching Company lectures -- in high school.  Not necessarily entire series, although we did use Dr. Vandiver's lecture series on the Iliad.  I'd use individual lectures from a couple of different series, my favorite being The Western Literary Canon in Context.  Each lecture focused on one major work, focusing on the historical context in which it was written as well as the historical flukes that preserved it or brought it to the top of our canon of great works.  Another series was on different authors.  With either series we'd watch a single lecture related to whatever work we were reading, and it certainly mixed things up, brought more depth to our understanding and enjoyment of the book.

 

I also did assign some context papers and reading ala WTM.  

 

I'd search for literary criticism on-line, and share what I found with my student.  We'd talk about the points in those essays, whether we agreed or disagreed.  I sometimes searched for lesson plans and found some entertaining work sheets just for the fun of it.  

 

We watched movie adaptations and dissected those. 

 

But mostly I just let them read then we'd talk about our books, and swap titles sometimes.  We still trade books and talk about them, I just don't fret about needing some kind of "output" from them anymore!   And I totally agreed with SWB's essays -- don't kill literature by analyzing everything or expecting brilliant output about every work read.  Just enjoy it.  The more your teen reads the more comfortable they will become with literature and non-fiction.  And you can nurture it all simply by modeling your own reading, your love of the written word.

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Lisa, thanks for sharing! I was afraid this thread was just going to be us Logic Stage moms talking to each other again!  :lol: (you know I love you all, right?)

 

Can you tell me what you did with the Progeny Press guides?  I have seen the Frankenstein guide, and I'm super impressed with it, but I worry that it will wind up with us beating the book to death - it's just so very dense, with tons of interesting discussion topics.  I think this is the kind of thing I'd tend to overdo.  

 

Rose,

 

It's been a while since I've used the PP guides. If memory serves, we would either orally discuss the chapter questions or I'd have my dc (only the older 2 used PP) write short answers to the discussion questions. It's been so long, I'm not much help.  I think Hewitt had some great essay prompts that my oldest used one year in American Literature. 

 

Lisa

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We actually enjoy talking about lit in comparison to other works or analyzing perspective from historical/contemporary perspectives, etc.  I would say our lit discussions are far from typical, but they are interesting and thought-provoking.   

 

As far as papers, this yr b/c dd is taking such a heavy load and her languages consume so much time, we have decided to come up with an alternative approach.  She gets the week after we finish a work or compilation of works (like short stories or poems) to write her paper.   (Same with history.  When she is writing a paper for a subject, she gets a week and it is the only thing she is focusing on for that subject.)  

 

That makes sense.  With my 7th grader, I'm only asking her to do one essay/writing project at a time (although she is doing other writing in content subjects - outlining, summarizing, answering study guide questions, and she's studying essay writing and doing exercises, as well).  So if she is writing something for history when we finish a book, I'm trying to figure out whether to just let writing about that book go - she's already working on a paper that week - or whether to try and catch it some how? What I'm realizing is that it is fine to just let it go.  If she just writes about a couple of books a year, it seems like that will be enough.  As long as she is writing about something, it doesn't need to write about everything she reads.  We are doing the Big History project, and I am having her do some type of essay/writing assignment with each unit, so between that and writing about a few of the books we read and discuss, hopefully this will be enough.  I guess I'm letting go of the lit guide/writing about every book idea I started the year with. 

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Do you have The Well Educated Mind?  I used the questions in that to help deepen our discussions.  The questions are more varied, more specific, I think than in the WTM, and they can go very deep.  It seemed a more natural starting point.  I tried instituting a reading journal as described in the WEM, but my boys balked at that.  I also had a hard time getting them to learn to start marking up their books, but I like the suggestions in the WEM for how to engage more with your books -- mark them up by underlining favorite quotes, or beautiful sentences, copy them into your reading journal.  The WEM also has broad historical overviews of the different genres which was helpful to me.

 

Yes, I just pulled this off the shelf and started reading it again.  I'll look at the questions in it, I hadn't actually compared them to the questions in WTM.  Thanks!  I would love to have her do a reading journal or write in her books, but I haven't figured out how to have her *do* anything with the book that hasn't been intrusive, so far.  She does love to re-read, though.  She tends to blow through a book very quickly the first time, and then if she loved it she will re-read it more slowly, sometimes multiple times.  Maybe a re-reading is when to try and have her do some of this annotation.

 

 

I didn't expect an essay a week in middle school, and didn't expect an essay a week just on literature in high school.  There were generally 4 essays or larger writing projects a month, in high school, but it was in different subjects.  Literary essays usually arose from our conversations, especially when the teen had a strong opinion about something. I'd point out what a great essay topic he had and we'd talk about the kinds of arguments that could be used to support that opinion.

 

This is specific and super helpful, thank you!

 

I used Teaching Company lectures -- in high school.  Not necessarily entire series, although we did use Dr. Vandiver's lecture series on the Iliad.  I'd use individual lectures from a couple of different series, my favorite being The Western Literary Canon in Context.  Each lecture focused on one major work, focusing on the historical context in which it was written as well as the historical flukes that preserved it or brought it to the top of our canon of great works.  Another series was on different authors.  With either series we'd watch a single lecture related to whatever work we were reading, and it certainly mixed things up, brought more depth to our understanding and enjoyment of the book.

 

I have Vandiver lectures, and I have The Western Literary Canon, and Heroes & Legends.  There are also a scad of online things, too - a new Berkeleyx book club that is covering some of the works we planned to read anyway, and this spring Coursera is doing a Shakespeare class.  I absolutely adore this stuff, my problem is figuring out what she'll benefit from and what will just woosh right over her head.  I actually think I'm going to love teaching high school - I'm kind of waiting for my student to be ready for all these amazing resources! In the meantime, I'm trying to figure out how to meet her where she is and help her take the next logical step from that place - where she actually is.  This is my constant challenge!

 

I also did assign some context papers and reading ala WTM.  

 

I'd search for literary criticism on-line, and share what I found with my student.  We'd talk about the points in those essays, whether we agreed or disagreed.  I sometimes searched for lesson plans and found some entertaining work sheets just for the fun of it.  

 

We watched movie adaptations and dissected those. 

 

But mostly I just let them read then we'd talk about our books, and swap titles sometimes.  We still trade books and talk about them, I just don't fret about needing some kind of "output" from them anymore!   And I totally agreed with SWB's essays -- don't kill literature by analyzing everything or expecting brilliant output about every work read.  Just enjoy it.  The more your teen reads the more comfortable they will become with literature and non-fiction.  And you can nurture it all simply by modeling your own reading, your love of the written word.

 

I've been reading some of the old threads Lori D linked, and some of the descriptions of how you guys have done lit - you, and Nan, and Lori, and others - are helping to reassure me.  I especially felt relieved in realizing that you often read aloud, or took turns reading.  I think this will be a good way to help my dd step up to the next level in her reading.  She inhales middle-grade level books, and I really want to help her stretch and read more challenging things, and I'm realizing that it's ok for us to start out by reading some of them together.  That's kind of a relief!

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Goodness, Rose, I still read aloud to my 10th grade dd and she is functioning (without a single doubt) at a college level.  I read aloud all kinds of things with her b/c it is the best way for us to stop and really tear something apart in deep discussion.  I love listening to her interject her thoughts!  Those moments are some of the greatest pleasures you ever get from homeschooling.  Some of the things kids say are so profound.  

 

My kids like writing about multiple things at once vs just one.  For example, dd will be writing this week.   She has come up with some topic that she wants to compare across Frankenstein, Rappacinni's Daughter and Farhenheit 451 and ethics issues with modern science.   They like something that they can really dig into and discuss.   Let writing assignments be organic---let them grow with your dd.  It is YOUR homeschool.  You really do get to make the decisions that best fit her needs.   :)

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Goodness, Rose, I still read aloud to my 10th grade dd and she is functioning (without a single doubt) at a college level.  I read aloud all kinds of things with her b/c it is the best way for us to stop and really tear something apart in deep discussion.  I love listening to her interject her thoughts!  Those moments are some of the greatest pleasures you ever get from homeschooling.  Some of the things kids say are so profound.  

 

My kids like writing about multiple things at once vs just one.  For example, dd will be writing this week.   She has come up with some topic that she wants to compare across Frankenstein, Rappacinni's Daughter and Farhenheit 451 and ethics issues with modern science.   They like something that they can really dig into and discuss.   Let writing assignments be organic---let them grow with your dd.  It is YOUR homeschool.  You really do get to make the decisions that best fit her needs.   :)

 

 

Thank you for that! Isn't it silly to feel like you need permission to do what you suspect is the right thing?  But it does really help to hear from you veterans who have successfully gotten kids all the way through!

 

I guess my struggle is that I'd like to get Shannon *reading* more challenging books.  She loves to read, and she reads voraciously, but she's mostly reading mid-level YA stuff, fantasy and mysteries.  She literally inhales books - this weekend she read an entire novel on Saturday and another on Sunday.  So reading quantity is no problem, and she comes and talks to me about the books that she loves, so I know she understand them and is reading them thoughtfully.  But they just aren't that challenging in terms of language, and I feel this need to try and stretch her in that area.  Should I just let that go, and read the "stretch" books together until she develops an interest in reading them on her own? That's where I'm not certain how to proceed. Should I be assigning her more challenging books, or just be grateful she reads on her own and, if I want her to experience a particular book that she's not into reading herself, do it together?  Is this reasonable? (there I go, asking for permission again!  ;)  :) )

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I still read aloud all of our history and most of our classic literature.  My boys are in 8th grade.  They do independent reading for some book related to history/lit.  One boy is pretty independent in math.  I have absolutely nothing to do with their outsourced science class, reading or studying for tests or any of it.

 

Starting next year, I will outsource math, science and foreign language for at least one boy.  The other may not be outsourced for math but will be independent if not outsourced.  I will continue to read aloud the history and literature, though.  It is the class I will own until the day they move on to 100% college work.  At some point, I may stop reading aloud quite so much.  In fact, I anticipate this.  But not now.  Not yet. 

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We've always followed the WTM recommendations.  It is simple but works so well! My DS is in 12th grade and has taken a few dual credit courses at the community college.  His professors are always complementing his critical thinking, literary analysis and writing skills!  One even went so far as to say that more people should teach like we have at home!  Being surrounded by great literature and discussing it has paid off so well!

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 But they just aren't that challenging in terms of language, and I feel this need to try and stretch her in that area.  Should I just let that go, and read the "stretch" books together until she develops an interest in reading them on her own? That's where I'm not certain how to proceed. Should I be assigning her more challenging books, or just be grateful she reads on her own and, if I want her to experience a particular book that she's not into reading herself, do it together?  Is this reasonable? (there I go, asking for permission again!  ;)  :) )

 

I personally never worried about the level of books my kids read for fun.  Sometimes easy fluff is just what a mind needs, especially a mind in the midst of a growth spurt, or a mind grappling with challenging new academic material.  As for school, I always had a list of books I wanted to introduce to my kids, most of which I read aloud or we'd listen together to an audio version.  (We did more audio books, actually as the electronic narrator's voice lasts much longer than mine, and can continue reading while we're in the car.)   I also assigned easier historical fiction readers or biographies to flesh out a topic and my kids eventually matured into preferring materials written for adults -- popular authors like Bill Bryson or Neil deGrasse Tyson for instance.  In other words, their level of "light reading" material grew with them.

 

Reading aloud classic literature, or listening to it being read by an excellent narrator on an audio book, is a great way to allow more advanced language to seep into your young teen's mind.  Those long, clause-filled sentences become natural, the vocabulary becomes a natural part of their spoken language.  Be grateful she enjoys reading and know that her thirst for better written books will grow as she matures and is exposed to more literature.  

 

 I will continue to read aloud the history and literature, though.  It is the class I will own until the day they move on to 100% college work.  At some point, I may stop reading aloud quite so much.  In fact, I anticipate this.  But not now.  Not yet. 

 

Yes to the bolded!!  Some of my fondest homeschool memories are of afternoons spent reading aloud, or of long drives while listening to a good book.  

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Thank you for that! Isn't it silly to feel like you need permission to do what you suspect is the right thing? But it does really help to hear from you veterans who have successfully gotten kids all the way through!

 

I guess my struggle is that I'd like to get Shannon *reading* more challenging books. She loves to read, and she reads voraciously, but she's mostly reading mid-level YA stuff, fantasy and mysteries. She literally inhales books - this weekend she read an entire novel on Saturday and another on Sunday. So reading quantity is no problem, and she comes and talks to me about the books that she loves, so I know she understand them and is reading them thoughtfully. But they just aren't that challenging in terms of language, and I feel this need to try and stretch her in that area. Should I just let that go, and read the "stretch" books together until she develops an interest in reading them on her own? That's where I'm not certain how to proceed. Should I be assigning her more challenging books, or just be grateful she reads on her own and, if I want her to experience a particular book that she's not into reading herself, do it together? Is this reasonable? (there I go, asking for permission again! ;) :) )

I have never controlled the books my kids read on their own, but I do select their lit readings, often with their input, but I still put together our lit classes.

 

My 10th grader had a literary explosion when she was your Dd's age. That was the yr I put together an Anne of Green Gables study and she fell in love with poetry. Reading **together** :) works like Marmion, Lady of the Lake, siege of Valencia, Lancelot and Elaine, etc combined with a fascinating unit on Shakespeare did for her in lit and language what AoPS did for Ds and math.

 

My current 7th grader, who is not as advanced as her sister, is blossoming with works like Gulliver's Travels, The Passing of Arthur, and Abigail Adams.

 

What does your dd love? Can you build a unit around that love?

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Horses!   :lol:  I'm not sure if there is any horse-based classic literature.  She's read all the usual suspects

 

She also fell in love with Greek mythology via the Percy Jackson series and has asked to do The Odyssey.  Clearly, that is something we will read/do together!  That's a no-brainer.  I'm working on a unit for that right now.  I'm thinking it will involve storytelling/philosophical discussion aided by The If Odyssey, listening to an audio version (I love the Ian McKellan audio), listening to the Vandiver lectures on Classical Mythology and The Odyssey.  Definitely not something I'd try to turn her loose on to read alone!

 

She loves Shakespeare and we do a couple of these each year - reading a retelling, watching several filmed versions, and now, starting this year, reading the play together, reader's theater style.  We did that with Macbeth, and I see that Coursera has a Shakespeare class coming up this spring, with discussions of Romeo & Juliet and Midsummer Night's Dream, which we've read, and Much Ado About Nothing and The Tempest, which we haven't.  So that's another good option for us.  Again, Shakespeare is not something I'd ever consider asking her to read on her own, we always do that together.

 

The other things she has asked to read are Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde, The Invisible Man, and The War of the Worlds.  I'm now thinking that we will listen to these and/or read them together.  I agree with what you all have been saying, the discussions will be so much more natural and organic if we pause when something strikes us and discuss it in real time.  I think what was artificial about what I was doing before was to send her off to read a chapter, then come back to discuss.  That just broke up the story too much.  But if we're listening or partner reading, it can just bubble up when something strikes us.  We're going to start listening to Dr. Jekyll today, I have a good audio version of it on hand.

 

I can also see that I need to just let go of the idea of having her write about literature this year, unless something bubbles up that she really wants to write about.  She's still learning how to write an essay, and learning to use various kinds of note-taking strategies as learning tools for content subjects.  I think I'm just trying to do too much too soon with writing (surprise, surprise!  :001_rolleyes: )

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I guess my struggle is that I'd like to get Shannon *reading* more challenging books.  She loves to read, and she reads voraciously, but she's mostly reading mid-level YA stuff, fantasy and mysteries.  She literally inhales books - this weekend she read an entire novel on Saturday and another on Sunday.  So reading quantity is no problem, and she comes and talks to me about the books that she loves, so I know she understand them and is reading them thoughtfully.  But they just aren't that challenging in terms of language...

 

She's 12yo and in 7th grade; very natural and normal. :) What she is doing through loads of grade-level reading is unconsciously absorbing a lot of the hidden "structure" of Literature. The tropes, the character types, the typical plot structures, cause and effect, allusions and references, etc. This is giving her a broad foundation for the next stage -- a sort of "rhetoric stage" of reading that comes during high school/adulthood.

 

Reading literacy and analysis comes in stages. Reading lots of similar works helps strengthen each new step in a reader's progress. For example, when young readers turn the corner and start to read with fluency, reading loads of works that are at or slightly below reading that have very similar, predictable patterns to them (series books) is great *practice*, and it builds confidence. Same thing is going on here: tweens hit another stage in their reading, where they are now beyond fluency and enjoying the entertainment and novelty in reading, and they are seeing *ideas* and *choices/consequences* in the YA fiction and now they need to feed these new patterns into their brains through lots of repetition of similar books. This is a critical "exercise" phase, to build up new muscles that will prepare the reader for the next phase of reading -- more complex works, and ability to think about and analyze literature.

 

No need to panic. She's only 12yo. She'll develop into those challenging works in her own timetable, as part of that development into the Rhetoric stage. (Side note: BTW is not a hard and fast switch to Rhetoric stage reading at grade 9, anymore than "switching" into Logic stage was. These are gradual transitions -- Logic stage thinking and reading levels transition slowly over several years. Same with Rhetoric stage thinking and reading levels -- often not really fully developing until gr. 10, 11, 12. That's why some classics, while a student may be *able* to read all the words in 6th garde, is just not going to appreciate or get as much out of it as by waiting until 10th or 12th gradeĂ¢â‚¬Â¦)

 

 

...But they just aren't that challenging in terms of language, and I feel this need to try and stretch her in that area...

...Should I be assigning her more challenging booksĂ¢â‚¬Â¦

Ă¢â‚¬Â¦ if I want her to experience a particular book that she's not into reading herself, do it together?

Ă¢â‚¬Â¦ Is this reasonable? (there I go, asking for permission again!   ;)   :) )

 

 

Since we started homeschooling with grades 1 and 2, we've always had assigned reading aloud together scheduled into our school day, so I guess that's why it never occurred to me I needed permission to do our middle/high school literature that way. ;) And, reading aloud happened all the way through 12th grade. On the rare occasion when there has been a bit of free time, we've read aloud even with college-age DSs. :) Just not something that any of us really wanted to stop -- sharing all the wonderful books together. :)

 

 

In your situation, since it sounds like you would like to encourage the occasional more challenging work, and have the opportunity to guide her into the next step of slightly more formal literary analysis, I would probably continue to let her read what she wants as her free reading, AND, starting after Christmas in the new semester, ADD an additional new way of doing the Literature:

 

1. Formal Lit together = 30-40 min/day, 4-5x/week

Read alouds, but with an added twist. A scheduled, more challenging work, that you read aloud together popcorn style ("you read a page, I read a page") -- or listen to as audio book. Read for about 30 minutes that way, and do any discussion either in the midst or ask lit. guide questions after for oral discussion. Compare with movies/TV, or things people have said/done in real life around you. Ask what she thinks of the character's choices. Check out the SWB questions on her handout, "What Is Literary Analysis And When to Teach It". Look-out for whatever literary elements you've just been learning about through Figuratively Speaking or Walch's Prose and Poetry, or other resource.

 

This is where doing something like LL7 or 8, or LLftLotR, or some other formal program comes in handy -- it is the formal "bad guy" (lol) that is what is requiring some slower reading and stopping to discuss and discover, and you get to be the cheerleader coming alongside with her to do that slower version of Literature *with* her -- oh, and BTW, getting to have some great discussions along the way on all kinds of topics (not just related to the Literature)Ă¢â‚¬Â¦ ;)

 

Hey, here's a radical thought: how about this spring semester, start a more "formal lit" by doing the Movies as Literature program together! You'll get to watch the movie on Mondays, and then tackle about half a dozen questions a day for the next 4 days (and go back to look at scenes to support your answers, or to look for answers). That way, you learn how to discuss the film elements which are often much easier to SEE than literary elements in literature. You could either do an abbreviated version and just take 1 semester to watch the films and just touch on them with light discussion, OR, you could spread it out and take a full year or year and a half (so, go into next year to finish), and go deeper/take longer by sometimes picking a question as a writing assignment, and sometimes actually going and reading the book and comparing...

 

And you then translate those film analysis skills into future years (high school) as literary analysis skills, either by then doing a formal Literature program, OR, a formal DIY WTM Literature...

 

 

2. History/Lit Supplemental books solo = a book every 2-4 weeks? (orĂ¢â‚¬Â¦?)

Assigned solo reading during school hours (or however you've been doing it) -- books from your big list that you created back last summer that go with your history and literature plans. What you've already been doing.

 

 

3. Free reading solo = up to DD

Free choice, on her own time outside of school hours, as much or as little as she wants, and of her choosing (within reason ;) ).

 

So 2/3 of her reading is still solo, and it's as much solo reading as she's had and is used to and enjoys -- so you are in no way squelching her love of reading. But starting with the new semester, you are *adding* a new extra to allow you to do the formal work with Literature. Sort of like having a pre-schooler who's had all day as free time to play and discover, moving into being a kinder, where they still largely have that free time, but you gently move into structuring 60 minutes of their free day of time, by sitting down together for two separated 30-minute sessions of a bit more formalized instruction in reading and math. :)

 

 

Just a few more ideas and some encouragement! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

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This thread has been so helpful to me.  I think that somewhere between Rose and me is a happy middle ground.  :D

 

I am aware that I need to beef up my boys' writing assignments at least a bit in the 9th grade.  This thread will help me to quantify that and define it.

 

Rose, my younger ds is a voracious reader and loves to read classics.  He picked up The Hound of the Baskervilles on his own recently and then requested to watch the movie.  He read an abridged version of The Invisible Man several years ago and asked for the unabridged version.  He begs for Poe to be read aloud.  He chose The Raven during the poetry class of my lit analysis class at co op.  He requested that I read aloud Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde two summers ago.  For kicks, he reads WW2 books.  He will be 12 in two weeks.  I think he and your dd would get along famously.  :)

 

Then I have a more typical-ish 14 yo son who reads what is assigned and little else.  The only books he really enjoys are dystopian.  I bought him The Maze series for Christmas.  He plays a lot of basketball.  :)

 

I have just started looking at a concrete plan for 9th grade for these two guys so this thread is timely.

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Not BTDT, but have you got MCT's Classics in the Classroom? I've been re-reading it this week.

 

In fact, it was reading the intro to one of MCT's lit trilogies that helped these feelings - that I'm doing lit "wrong" - bubble up to the surface.  I do have this book, I will pull it out again.  I do find MCT's discussions about literature inspiring!

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We read Stevenson's short story Markheim together today - alternating pages.  So good that we read it together, there was some background info I could supply that helped her understand the setting (what is a pawn shop? what is a fence?) but she did great with the vocab, and not only did she understand the story, she got a plot twist that I totally missed in my first reading, and loved the surprise ending.  We had a great discussion about how authors create sympathy for characters who do terrible things (Macbeth, Markheim) and about the duality of human nature, and how monsters are created, a theme we'll be continuing to explore in our next few readings (Dr. J & Mr. H, Invisible Man).  And with no threat of a writing assignment hanging over our heads, it was so much more relaxed and pleasant!!  Thanks to everybody who helped me figure things out these past few days, I'm feeling like I see my way forward a bit better now.  I think that letting the writing program and the history program create the writing assignments, and just enjoying our reading and discussion of lit is the right place for us at the moment.

 

And Lori, Shannon would *love* that Movies as Literature curriculum, I think.  I will have to do a bit more research on that.  You may have picked next year's lit for us! 

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We read Stevenson's short story Markheim together today - alternating pages.  So good that we read it together, there was some background info I could supply that helped her understand the setting...

 

Ă¢â‚¬Â¦ not only did she understand the story, she got a plot twist that I totally missed in my first reading, and loved the surprise ending.  We had a great discussion about how authors create sympathy for characters who do terrible things (Macbeth, Markheim) and about the duality of human nature, and how monsters are created, a theme we'll be continuing to explore in our next few readings (Dr. J & Mr. H, Invisible Man).

 

...And with no threat of a writing assignment hanging over our heads, it was so much more relaxed and pleasant!! 

Ă¢â‚¬Â¦. I think that letting the writing program and the history program create the writing assignments, and just enjoying our reading and discussion of lit is the right place for us at the moment.

 

:hurray: SO AWESOME, Rose! That is SO great that BOTH of you enjoyed it!  :hurray: That will go a long ways towards not making future Literature seem slow or onerous to your DD. ;) And we often found it worked that way too -- what was seen in one work built up and carried into other works, or at least made for interesting contrasts...

 

And, just adding that I always found it helpful to have multiple guides/resources for each work we did this way, to help us catch things we would not have known -- either helpful background info on the author/times so we "get" what the work was referencing or rebelling against, or connections the author had to other works or authors, etc. Google searching on specific works and Wikipedia articles for author background usually helped, but if you want more than what you can find, post it with a request -- there always seems to be SOMEONE here with loads of knowledge to fill in for you. ;)

 

This reminds me the success that Aimee (5LittleMonkeys) had 2 years back with her DD just starting more formal Literature with Windows to the World: "Why does my DD have lots to say"

 

:cheers2: Cheers! And wishing you and DD continued joy in the journey with the Great Books! Warmest regards, Lori D.

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We read Stevenson's short story Markheim together today - alternating pages.  So good that we read it together, there was some background info I could supply that helped her understand the setting (what is a pawn shop? what is a fence?) but she did great with the vocab, and not only did she understand the story, she got a plot twist that I totally missed in my first reading, and loved the surprise ending.  We had a great discussion about how authors create sympathy for characters who do terrible things (Macbeth, Markheim) and about the duality of human nature, and how monsters are created, a theme we'll be continuing to explore in our next few readings (Dr. J & Mr. H, Invisible Man).  And with no threat of a writing assignment hanging over our heads, it was so much more relaxed and pleasant!!  Thanks to everybody who helped me figure things out these past few days, I'm feeling like I see my way forward a bit better now.  I think that letting the writing program and the history program create the writing assignments, and just enjoying our reading and discussion of lit is the right place for us at the moment.

 

And Lori, Shannon would *love* that Movies as Literature curriculum, I think.  I will have to do a bit more research on that.  You may have picked next year's lit for us! 

 

One of the great benefits I have found of reading aloud is that I can define unfamiliar words for the boys or give the background, as you did with the pawn shop.  This enriches them in ways they would miss if they were independently reading the book.  I also teach them to glean the meaning from root words and context, a skill they will need always.

 

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Can I piggyback a question on this:

how do you do literature with an introvert who hates discussions?

He is a strong reader, loves to write on his novels (mandated essays not so much), has thoughts about books, will listen with interest to TC lectures - but wants absolutely no interaction with me!

He wants to be left alone to do school all.by.himself.

 

Any suggestions what I can use to enhance his experience? I'd LOVE to have interactions like 8FillTheHeart describes - but no way this is going to happen. (And no, forcing him to discuss books with me will not produce meaningful conversations or get him to express his thoughts beyond grudging monosyllabic answers. )

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Can I piggyback a question on this:

how do you do literature with an introvert who hates discussions?

He is a strong reader, loves to write on his novels (mandated essays not so much), has thoughts about books, will listen with interest to TC lectures - but wants absolutely no interaction with me!

He wants to be left alone to do school all.by.himself.

 

Any suggestions what I can use to enhance his experience? I'd LOVE to have interactions like 8FillTheHeart describes - but no way this is going to happen. (And no, forcing him to discuss books with me will not produce meaningful conversations or get him to express his thoughts beyond grudging monosyllabic answers. )

 

My 14 year old son is an introvert who hates discussions.  He has adjusted well to me reading aloud and asking the occasional question.  Often I just give my take on something.  He listens and absorbs and benefits.  His extroverted brother is not much of a discusser, either.  Sometimes we do get into interesting discussions during history or literature, though, and my introvert is very good at asking questions when he wonders about something.  For instance, we were reading about the Democratic party of the 1800's, and he asked if that was the same as the Democrat party of today.  My dh, a history buff, happened to be walking by at that moment, and ds got all sorts of interesting information as a result of his question.

 

I do not force discussion (as you know, this is futile), and I accept his one word answers.  Introverts need a lot of time to process so I give him this. 

 

We do most of our logic study with me reading aloud, and I will accept his short answer and then piggy back on it to expand upon it.

 

When I ask the meaning of a word I have just read, he will take a stab at it or say that he doesn't know.  I just ask for meaningful participation, and he agrees.

 

I wonder if you can appeal to the side of your ds that would appreciate benefitting from this experience either educationally or for the future discussion experiences he will need to have or both.

 

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Can I piggyback a question on this:

how do you do literature with an introvert who hates discussions?

He is a strong reader, loves to write on his novels (mandated essays not so much), has thoughts about books, will listen with interest to TC lectures - but wants absolutely no interaction with me!

He wants to be left alone to do school all.by.himself.

 

Any suggestions what I can use to enhance his experience? I'd LOVE to have interactions like 8FillTheHeart describes - but no way this is going to happen. (And no, forcing him to discuss books with me will not produce meaningful conversations or get him to express his thoughts beyond grudging monosyllabic answers. )

 

Can you appeal to reason with him at this stage -- will he accept a compromise of doing a weekly "tea and book club" meeting if it is just another required element of earning the Lit. credit? You could lay it out clearly that you are not trying to violate his independence, but rather, the point is to help him learn / practice the skill of class discussion and literary analysis, which, in part, requires some teacher interaction and a group for discussionĂ¢â‚¬Â¦ ;)

 

Can you interact/discuss "in slow motion" -- via writing a paragraph or a 8 to 10 separate sentences per person, back and forth in a notebook, several days a week? (any insights, thoughts, comments, connections, answers to discussion questionsĂ¢â‚¬Â¦) A blog you can both post to a few times a week? Or email each other? Maybe set it up like a more formal "blackboard" discussion group like a college course would have?

 

I know it's also hard to have discussion when it's just one student; they tend to feel "put on the spot", and that they always have to be "on". The teacher (you) has no other student to call on. ;) What about you teaching a small literature co-op class that would include group discussion, so DS wouldn't feel like all the focus was just on him answering? (I'm having the very great privilege of teaching a gr. 7-12 Lit. class this year, based on classic fantasy and sci-fi works, and am having a load of fun with the discussion of the works with the students; they have such great thoughts!)

 

Does your family ever go to a movie or watch a TV show together, and do you discuss afterwards? If so, what does that look like, and is there a way of translating what works for your family discussions of film/TV over to Lit. discussions?

 

What about including dad in the picture and having him read the Lit., too, and having 3-way discussion at the dinner table?

 

Or together, BOTH of you sign up for a Coursera literature class (or other similar offering), so now you are BOTH students with assignments to turn in and can discuss together in support of one another.

 

A few more ideas in this past thread:  "Socratic discusson problems - introverts". BEST of luck in finding a good compromise! Warmest regards, Lori D.

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