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When to start literature more "formally"


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Is it necessary to do it in 8th grade? I had purchased Mosdos for DD, but she really just wants to buddy read this year, like we did last year. I'm not comfortable teaching analysis and other literary components without a TM, so when we DO need to do that, I *will* buy a program like Mosdos. 

 

Is it necessary to do in middle school, or can we "just read" and then pick up literature more intentionally, or more formally, in high school/9th grade, instead?

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I think you don't "have to" but the middle school years are a good time to introduce the subject.  In WWS 1, SWB introduces writing about literature, short stories and poems etc. She is more focused on teaching the form so it doesn't have to be learned in the high school years, but it was a good introduction.

 

Starting in 5th grade I had a reading list that I assigned to be done independently. I liked it to follow our history, but it isn't necessary by any means. Then I just googled things like "Bronze bow middle school reading questions" or "Bronze Bow 5th grade"  or "Little Women 7th grade" or "Little Women chapter guide". Things like that. I would get a lot of hits. I tried to keep it limited to middle school appropriate stuff. I didn't ask for writing, I left that to WWS, we just discussed what was read. But it helped me to have some questions to fall back on like about symbolism, motifs, themes, gender roles etc.  And it was free, which was nice. I didn't do anything to deep.

 

If you are her 'reading buddy' then I am guessing that you are already reading and discussing.

 

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I think you don't "have to" but the middle school years are a good time to introduce the subject.  In WWS 1, SWB introduces writing about literature, short stories and poems etc. She is more focused on teaching the form so it doesn't have to be learned in the high school years, but it was a good introduction.

 

Starting in 5th grade I had a reading list that I assigned to be done independently. I liked it to follow our history, but it isn't necessary by any means. Then I just googled things like "Bronze bow middle school reading questions" or "Bronze Bow 5th grade"  or "Little Women 7th grade" or "Little Women chapter guide". Things like that. I would get a lot of hits. I tried to keep it limited to middle school appropriate stuff. I didn't ask for writing, I left that to WWS, we just discussed what was read. But it helped me to have some questions to fall back on like about symbolism, motifs, themes, gender roles etc.  And it was free, which was nice. I didn't do anything to deep.

 

If you are her 'reading buddy' then I am guessing that you are already reading and discussing.

Yes, we definitely already discuss when we read, which is what she wants to do this upcoming year. I don't particularly mind it, if that's what she wants to do, and it may be beneficial to keep her load in literature more "lite" and enjoyable - she has a pretty hefty course load otherwise.

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We buddy-read here too. 

 

DD just finished the Coral set from Mosdos.  She's 5th grade/average student/came late to reading.  I wanted something quasi-analytical (exploring plot, themes, etc., in a not-heavy handed way) and it was awesome:  couldn't wait to read the next assignment and do the corresponding work.  She finished the whole thing between late Oct. and now!  And...she understands characters, plot, etc. without my having to really reinforce it :)

 

I do like the idea finding the themes of a novel or novella though:  I read recently about a woman whose 7th grade English teacher made all the kids take different-colored highlighters to their paperback novels to find the big analytical themes within.  Might do that next year with dd. 

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We did buddy reading with most of our formal lit. all the way through high school, so you don't have to stop at the end of 8th grade. ? And formal literature should NOT suck the joy away and be something you and your DD dread starting it.  :eek: The best "formal Literature program"  helps add to your experience and helps you find "buried treasure" in wonderful works of Literature! ?

Why not make 8th grade a super gentle transition year -- buddy reading, plus a little something extra to add to your enjoyment of reading together?

As Silver Moon suggested, Figuratively Speaking would be super easy to incorporate -- do it together, 1 or 2 lessons a week, and it gives you exposure to 40 literary devices. Once you read about one, then you can have fun noticing that device in your buddy reading. That in NO way takes away the cozy fun reading aspect of buddy reading. ?

Another thought: maybe try Lightning Lit 7 this year, and do selected units of it in addition to your buddy reading. There are some really fun books in to enjoy reading aloud together in LL7 (Rikki Tikki Tavi, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, All Creatures Great and Small). The teaching info on each lesson is not long, and are written in a very interesting and engaging way -- it's actually enjoyable to read about how plot works! ? And you can do as many or as few of the go-along worksheets for the lesson as you wish.

Enjoy your Literature journey together next year -- and all through high school! ? Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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We worked through Figuratively Speaking in either 6th or 7th grade, it was painless, lol. He naturally incorporated what he learned, but he had learned quite a few terms in WWS and in FLL.  We didn't go on to read books that were highlighted in Figuratively Speaking, because we had enough other stuff to be getting on with, but he did take away lots from it.  We also used Reading Detective in years 7&9. He already had excellent reading comprehension, but it was good practice to have him go back to the text, both fiction and non,  for supporting statements and examples etc. 

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If she was a strong reader, then maybe. But if she isn't, then I would not wait until high school to start doing formal literature. Why not start building a foundation now???

 

We buddy read WITH a program. It's not all-or-nothing. We each read the day's reading, discuss using the provided discussion questions as a starting point, and then we do the activities that relate to literary elements. It doesn't have to be a big change from what you're already doing.

 

MBTP is great for this because the books are broken down into daily assignments. Garlic Press guides are much briefer but still good. Portals to Literature are REALLY comprehensive but worth looking at.

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If she was a strong reader, then maybe. But if she isn't, then I would not wait until high school to start doing formal literature. Why not start building a foundation now???

 

We buddy read WITH a program. It's not all-or-nothing. We each read the day's reading, discuss using the provided discussion questions as a starting point, and then we do the activities that relate to literary elements. It doesn't have to be a big change from what you're already doing.

 

MBTP is great for this because the books are broken down into daily assignments. Garlic Press guides are much briefer but still good. Portals to Literature are REALLY comprehensive but worth looking at.

Because the foundation isn't going to hold if it makes her dread lit time ;) Right now, she loves reading. She just prefers reading "books" and doesn't care much for textbooks (for literature; she doesn't mind them otherwise). She reads well, but her stamina is lacking. If I incorporate much writing into it, she will shut down and it will quickly become a chore for her. Her dyslexia presents far more in her writing/spelling than it does in her reading. As I'm looking through Mosdos, it really shines - as a very comprehensive literature program, but to make the most out of it, it would be too writing intensive for her to do... and still enjoy on any level.

 

I think I'll look at Figuratively Speaking. If it's gentle and enjoyable, it would be even better than MP's American Lit. Autumn does have a list of books she would like to get through this upcoming year, and almost all of them are assigned in most 8th/9th grade programs.

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I love reading books of all kinds, and I love doing Literature. But I would dread it, too, if it was coming out of a textbook! ;)  :laugh:

I know, I know. Lol. I'm weird. I was the type of kid who read through my literature textbooks the minute I got them!

 

I know people do add actual books to literature textbooks, but I just can't see that working for Red. She likes reading, but she would burn out very quickly trying to keep up with actual books, the textbook, and all of the writing work in the literature textbook (and without those assignments, it really isn't anything that any other textbook isn't - the extensions are what makes Mosdos better than so many others. For some kids. Not my eldest).

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Because the foundation isn't going to hold if it makes her dread lit time ;) Right now, she loves reading. She just prefers reading "books" and doesn't care much for textbooks (for literature; she doesn't mind them otherwise). She reads well, but her stamina is lacking. If I incorporate much writing into it, she will shut down and it will quickly become a chore for her. Her dyslexia presents far more in her writing/spelling than it does in her reading. As I'm looking through Mosdos, it really shines - as a very comprehensive literature program, but to make the most out of it, it would be too writing intensive for her to do... and still enjoy on any level.

 

I think I'll look at Figuratively Speaking. If it's gentle and enjoyable, it would be even better than MP's American Lit. Autumn does have a list of books she would like to get through this upcoming year, and almost all of them are assigned in most 8th/9th grade programs.

I agree, textbooks aren't going to help her love literature. I suggested literature guides that are used with novels, not with textbooks.

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On 4/24/2015 at 6:12 AM, KeriJ said:

Not to hijack, but Lori, and others, do you feel it is necessary to continue this type of lit. analysis through high school?  Or is doing something like Figuratively Speaking in 8th sufficient as a "formal program"?  

 

JMO: Yes, I do think you can dig into Literature with great depth without a formal program. Most of our high school Literature was done without a formal program. ?

However: The big potential problem I see with NOT using a "formal program" in high school is there's the risk that you stop at just "exposure" -- just reading through a list of classic works, deciding if you liked them or not, maybe seeing a theme or a literary device or two, and checking the book off of a list.


JMO, but typically high school Literature is about learning to "go deep" on some (not all!) of the works read. It is learning to read a variety of types of classic works (novels, novellas, short stories, poetry, plays, essays) from a range of genres (epic, dramatic, realistic, gothic, humorous, adventure, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.), with some understanding of the context for these types of works and genres to add meaning and appreciation.

High school literature is about digging deeper into reading a book in a variety of ways:
- literary devices and how they are working in the book
- research and apply background info on the author / book / times to the work (provides "lightbulb" moments to understanding what the author's point was or what the author was reacting to, etc.)
- compare/contrast or analyze this work with the author's body of work
- compare/contrast or analyze this author with other authors / genres / subject matter / times
- guided discussion (discussion that brings out what you see in the work, why, what supports that, what connected with you or what you disagree with and why, important thoughts triggered by the work, and connections with things happening in our world today so we learn from the work -- etc.)
- writing assignments (since high school is the rhetoric stage, you practice short answer thinking questions, "reader response" papers, longer analysis paper on character, theme, or other literary devices, etc.)

That's why a *good* Literature program can be so very worthwhile, if you as the parent / teacher / facilitator don't have a strong background with Lit., don't care for it, or aren't sure what high school Literature should/could look like. But that's also why it is so easy for a "formal program" to go overboard and try to do TOO much with EVERY work. Or when you "DIY", you can accidentally kill the love of a book.

So either way, formal program, or DIY, be so very careful to NOT over-do, or to force trying to "get deep stuff" out of works of Literature! Textbooks, or even homeschool parents who are STEM-based and very literal/black & white thinkers, have a tendency to do this -- for example, stuff the work into some sort of multi-step process and at the end, it should yield the result of the theme of the book is "x", the symbol of "y" means "z".  :sad::ohmy: :eek:  :crying:  :svengo:  That is treating Literature like a math equation to be solved. That results in what poet Billy Collins says is like this: 

Introduction to Poetry
I ask them to take a poem   
and hold it up to the light   
like a color slide
or press an ear against its hive.

I say drop a mouse into a poem   
and watch him probe his way out,
or walk inside the poem’s room   
and feel the walls for a light switch.

I want them to waterski   
across the surface of a poem
waving at the author’s name on the shore.

But all they want to do
is tie the poem to a chair with rope   
and torture a confession out of it.

They begin beating it with a hose   
to find out what it really means.

by Billy Collins
 

Andrew Kern's free audio download of "Teaching Literature Without Killing It" might be a good place to start as a balanced perspective: (scroll down the list about 3/4 of the way; it is the first title in the section "free selections from 2012 conference")

Good literature is entertaining or moving or difficult, certainly. But good Literature is more than that -- it can help us wrestle with life; make us soar above the clouds and inspire us; allow us the privilege of learning through the lives of the characters and the world of the book. Literature is a *conversation* between you, the reader, and authors and works of Literature. So, you have do so some *listening* to the work to hear what the author/work is trying to say on that side of the conversation, and that's a skill that good high school Literature helps you develop over the years of high school. Because listening to Literature is an active process, more than "just reading" And by "active", I *don't* mean answering comprehension questions!  ?

So: All that said, some good, gentle programs to help you towards "DIY" literature, or work as transition from "just reading" into more formal Literature study in high school:

intro to the "tools" of literary elements that are used in literary analysis
 
how to guide discussion / dig deeper through Socratic questions
 
how dig deeper/ have thinking discussions about film, which then is a stepping stone to working with Literature
 
how to write a literary analysis essay; how to annotate and use your annotations as specific support in a literary analysis essay (or discussion!); how several 
 
lovely, gentle programs that make great transitions from "just reading" to beginning literary analysis -- to think about what you're reading and how to see a little deeper into the work without detracting from enjoyment of the work intro to literary analysis
 
These past threads are great for discussion on to do/not do formal literary analysis in high school:
 
And I love these past threads for seeing the kinds of discussions that high school Literature can bring about (not every book, of course! and often the very BEST conversations are the spontaneous ones in the car while driving somewhere, as the Literature your student has been reading and discussing with you triggers thoughts and discussion on topics of personal interest!):
 
What's up with Wuthering Heights -- not only discussion on the book, but also on the idea of literary analysis and whether/not it is useful

 

Finally, here's SWB's overview of what literary analysis at the high school level looks like (from her handout on this website, "What Is Literary Analysis and When to Teach it?" As you can see, you slowly work towards rhetoric stage thinking, discussing, writing with Literature, just as you do with other subject areas, but with care to not kill the love of reading! If a "formal program" helps you accomplish this, great! Go for it! If a "formal program" does not click for your family or help you, great! Don't use one! Find resources that do help you! ?

And enjoy your high school Literature journey together! ? Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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If she was a strong reader, then maybe. But if she isn't, then I would not wait until high school to start doing formal literature. Why not start building a foundation now???

 

We buddy read WITH a program. It's not all-or-nothing. We each read the day's reading, discuss using the provided discussion questions as a starting point, and then we do the activities that relate to literary elements. It doesn't have to be a big change from what you're already doing.

 

MBTP is great for this because the books are broken down into daily assignments. Garlic Press guides are much briefer but still good. Portals to Literature are REALLY comprehensive but worth looking at.

Waht is MBTP?
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Another thought: maybe try Lightning Lit 7 this year, and do selected units of it in addition to your buddy reading. There are some really fun books in to enjoy reading aloud together in LL7 (Rikki Tikki Tavi, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, All Creatures Great and Small). The teaching info on each lesson is not long, and are written in a very interesting and engaging way -- it's actually enjoyable to read about how plot works! ;) And you can do as many or as few of the go-along worksheets for the lesson as you wish.

 

 

Enjoy your Literature journey together next year -- and all through high school! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

We used LL in 7th & 8th as transition. I liked the reading selections and it begins to bring in the idea of studying literature. Be careful not to drown in the worksheets, but feel free to pick and choose instead. 

 

And, no, you don't have to use 8th as a transition year. It is fine to start in high school. I like gentler transitions though.

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