Grammar woes

[lexi]

I can’t find a grammar program that works for my 7th grader. 

We used FLL in elementary. It was fine.

Then we tried Hake. It did not go over well and she retained nothing. 

We are trying GWTM. We started it last year and are still working through it. She loathes it. And honestly, I’m not enjoying it either. She hates the oral component with me asking questions and going through the rules. 

I think she’d be happiest with some type of textbook/workbook. Something that requires less oversight and involvement from me. She hates the “conversation” part of GWTM. She wants to just read it herself. She is my independent student who loves textbooks and workbooks - especially if they have color. 

What would work well for her?

Rod and Staff looks so uninspiring. 

I’m considering Growing with Grammar but wondering how much of it is simply busywork. 

I’ve also glanced at Abeka and it looks solid. But I can’t tell exactly what I need to buy. Are the instructions all in the teacher guide or is the workbook written to the student? 

Critical Thinking Co has grammar but I don’t think it has diagramming. 

So, can anyone suggest something? I’d like her to do grammar in 7th and maybe 8th and then focus on writing in high school. 

She does ok with grammar. I wish I could find a curriculum that she would tolerate rather than one that frustrates her. If I buy the next book of GWTM she will mutiny!

[Lori D.]

What is your purpose in studying Grammar? Not trying to be snarky or glib or dismiss the importance of Grammar, but sometimes it helps to figure out what exactly you want to accomplish with a subject in order to determine whether or not you really *need* a formal program, or if perhaps you are already accomplishing some of the goals organically, without a program.

I personally see Grammar as a tool for the purpose of helping with:
     - clear, correct writing and speech (rhetoric)
     - proof-editing in writing (catch and correct errors)
     - foreign language acquisition

It can also be helpful to look at the 3 major "aspects" of Grammar to determine if there is an area that is particularly weak for your student:

- grammar -- esp. used in writing
     (parts of speech & their "jobs" in a sentence; sentence structure -- correct word order, run-ons, fragments, etc.)
- usage -- esp. used in proof-editing and foreign language
     (verb tenses; subject/verb agreement; pronouns; modifiers; etc.)
- mechanics -- esp. used in proof-editing
     (punctuation, capitalization, plurals, contractions, etc.)

JMO, but because Grammar is so closely linked to Writing (and speaking), I don't think all students "get" Grammar as a subject in isolation, or through diagramming. If your student largely speaks and writes correctly, then you may not need yet another Grammar program, but may instead find what is most helpful is:
1. a Grammar overview for solidifying correct sentence structure + understanding parts of speech for foreign language acquisition
2. something for practice of revising and proof-editing one's own writing

For #1, you might check out Joyce Herzog's 6 Weeks to Understanding Grammar (great for really *understanding* how grammar works). Or possibly something like Susan Thurman's The Only Grammar Book You'll Ever Need, which is more of a reference type of resource (which, very handily also has a chapter that succinctly explains the various types of papers/essays you may need to write in high school & college).

For #2, there are all kinds of programs to choose from -- Fix It, Editor in Chief, Punctuation Puzzler, Daily Grams, GUM Drops, etc. etc. Just depends on what's a good fit for your student; our DSs seemed to click with Janice Bell's Caught Ya Grammar, both the Giggles in the Middle (gr. 6-8) and The Chortling Bard (gr. 9-12) as both a "bite a day" proof editing practice but also as a grammar concept review.

BEST of luck in determining what you really need as far as Grammar, and what will best click and help your student understand Grammar. Warmest regards, Lori D.

[lexi]

Thanks! That is helpful.

I'm finding that she makes mistakes in writing - punctuation usage especially. I feel like we really need to work on rules for commas and semicolons. I think we need some mechanics help.

She's also really diving into Spanish and Latin this year (after several years of study). And she loves that. So I'd like to study grammar to help her with her foreign language as well. 

So maybe an overview but focus more on editing? 

 

[Sherry in OH]

5 hours ago, lexi said:

I can’t find a grammar program that works for my 7th grader. 

We used FLL in elementary. It was fine.

Then we tried Hake. It did not go over well and she retained nothing. 

We are trying GWTM. We started it last year and are still working through it. She loathes it. And honestly, I’m not enjoying it either. She hates the oral component with me asking questions and going through the rules. 

I think she’d be happiest with some type of textbook/workbook. Something that requires less oversight and involvement from me. She hates the “conversation” part of GWTM. She wants to just read it herself. She is my independent student who loves textbooks and workbooks - especially if they have color. 

Why not let her read the GWTM instructor's manual herself?  

...Critical Thinking Co has grammar but I don’t think it has diagramming. 

Is diagramming crucial?  If so, would something like the First Whole Book of Diagrams and the Elementary Diagramming worktext fit that need?   If it isn't crucial, then Critical Thinking Company or maybe MCT.

So, can anyone suggest something? I’d like her to do grammar in 7th and maybe 8th and then focus on writing in high school. 

 

She does ok with grammar. I wish I could find a curriculum that she would tolerate rather than one that frustrates her. If I buy the next book of GWTM she will mutiny!

 

[Lori D.]

On 8/9/2018 at 4:24 PM, lexi said:

...She's also really diving into Spanish and Latin this year (after several years of study). And she loves that. So I'd like to study grammar to help her with her foreign language as well...

Just thinking back to my high school Spanish classes which were taught by a woman who really knew her Grammar... Understanding the functioning of the different types of pronouns (subject, possessive, reflexive, etc.), and clearly understanding direct/indirect objects will be very helpful for Spanish.

 

On 8/9/2018 at 2:04 PM, lexi said:

... think she’d be happiest with some type of textbook/workbook. Something that requires less oversight and involvement from me. She hates the “conversation” part of GWTM. She wants to just read it herself. She is my independent student who loves textbooks and workbooks - especially if they have color...

On 8/9/2018 at 4:24 PM, lexi said:

...I'm finding that she makes mistakes in writing - punctuation usage especially. I feel like we really need to work on rules for commas and semicolons. I think we need some mechanics help.
...So maybe an overview but focus more on editing? 

sigh... If only I would read posts more carefully... I got as far in your OP as "not retaining anything (with Hake's), and failed to see that your DD fits well with workbooks. Sorry! So disregard my comments in my first post about "not getting grammar" and the suggestions that followed, and instead, below are some independent workbook program ideas -- nothing I can think of with color, however.

Zane-Bloser GUM (Grammar, Usage, Mechanics) -- student edition, student & teacher bundle -- solid solo-working workbook that includes brief info/explanation, and then work-pages.

Growing With Grammar (level 7) -- table of contents; student manual sample student reads info in the manual independently and then does the student workbook pages.

Daily Grams (gr. 7) might be a possibility. It covers several topics (capitalization, punctuation, parts of speech, fragments/run-ons, sentence combining, and other concepts. Easy Grammar is by the same publisher and is a more complete program. One possible downside is that both programs are very repetitive, and our DSs would quickly see the "pattern", and then fill things in "by rote", rather than actually practicing concepts or learning concepts, so it ended up not being a self-teaching tool or practice tool that worked for us. YMMV.

Another solid program, that is similar to the Caught Ya Grammar series, but is easier to use is Fix-It: Frog Prince (gr. 6-12). However, this one is a bit more parent-intensive and a bit less independent for the student, as there are weekly items to discuss, and that is along the lines of what your DD dislikes about GWTM (which, BTW, I can NOT figure which program that is (:P ).

For just editing practice that comes in a workbook format, one of these might work:
- GUM Drops (gr. 7) -- includes info for self-teaching
- Evan Moore Daily Paragraph Editing (gr. 7)
- Editor-in-Chief (gr. 7-8)

Edited August 17, 2018 by Lori D.

[Miss Tick]

Analytical Grammar might suit your needs. It is a bit pricey, although they have a new electronic version that perhaps is cheaper. Anyway, the "third season" is all mechanics. You could test through to that (or just skip to that) perhaps with the ebook you can just print what you need? We generally do about half of the exercises assuming things are going well.

After you finish a season there are cumulative review worksheets to be done one every other week.

Perhaps it would suit your needs.

[Ellie]

18 hours ago, lexi said:

I can’t find a grammar program that works for my 7th grader. 

We used FLL in elementary. It was fine.

Then we tried Hake. It did not go over well and she retained nothing. 

We are trying GWTM. We started it last year and are still working through it. She loathes it. And honestly, I’m not enjoying it either. She hates the oral component with me asking questions and going through the rules. 

I think she’d be happiest with some type of textbook/workbook. Something that requires less oversight and involvement from me. She hates the “conversation” part of GWTM. She wants to just read it herself. She is my independent student who loves textbooks and workbooks - especially if they have color. 

What would work well for her?

Rod and Staff looks so uninspiring. 

I’m considering Growing with Grammar but wondering how much of it is simply busywork. 

I’ve also glanced at Abeka and it looks solid. But I can’t tell exactly what I need to buy. Are the instructions all in the teacher guide or is the workbook written to the student? 

Critical Thinking Co has grammar but I don’t think it has diagramming. 

So, can anyone suggest something? I’d like her to do grammar in 7th and maybe 8th and then focus on writing in high school. 

She does ok with grammar. I wish I could find a curriculum that she would tolerate rather than one that frustrates her. If I buy the next book of GWTM she will mutiny!

Rod and Staff and ABeka are complete grammar/writing courses. If you're only looking for grammar, you don't want those. I know you can separate out the grammar from the writing, but you don't want to spend your brain power doing that. :-)

GWG is wimpy, IMHO.

Do you *HAVE* to have diagramming? I have read that America is the only English-speaking country that requires its native speakers of the language to diagram. :-)

My personal favorite has always been Easy Grammar, and for your dd, that would be Easy Grammar Plus. Oh, and I understood diagramming much better after having done EG.

[Momto6inIN]

1 hour ago, SusanC said:

Analytical Grammar might suit your needs. It is a bit pricey, although they have a new electronic version that perhaps is cheaper. Anyway, the "third season" is all mechanics. You could test through to that (or just skip to that) perhaps with the ebook you can just print what you need? We generally do about half of the exercises assuming things are going well.

After you finish a season there are cumulative review worksheets to be done one every other week.

Perhaps it would suit your needs.

Agree!

We love AG - thorough and to the point with plenty of practice if you need it but easy to streamline if you don't. I usually spend about 10 - 15 minutes going over the lesson with them and then they are on their own the rest of the week (unless they are struggling obviously). My oldest did all 3 seasons in his 8th grade year, but the next 2 have spread it out with 1 season every year in 6th - 8th. Then in high school they do the review books to keep their skills sharp until it becomes 2nd nature and I feel like they don't need it anymore.

Great retention with it too! They laughingly roll their eyes and good naturedly complain through most of it, but my oldest acknowledged that it was useful when he was struggling over a passage in the New Testament (Paul uses a LOT of clauses ? especially in the King James version) and he ended up diagramming the sentence to tease out its meaning. He did it all on his own and only sheepishly told me about it later and admitted it was a good thing he'd done AG. ?

[Peaceseeker]

Agreeing with Ellie on Easy Grammar plus.  No diagramming but it is written pretty much to the student and is workbook style.  My kids could do it without me for the most part and it gives a nice overview. Every once in a while I had to explain something to my 6th grader.  My 8th grader needed almost no help.  I do think they also pick up a lot just from going over their writing with me and correcting their errors. 

Edited August 11, 2018 by CaliforniaDreamin

[Kanin]

Not long ago, I heard a story on NPR or someplace about grammar - and the research has shown that teaching grammar as a separate subject doesn't increase a student's ability to write well. That might be what you're seeing with your DD not attending to punctuation when she writes. Instead, it's best to just write thing, and then edit - connecting the writing and editing process rather than separating it. I did a quick search and found tons of articles, but here's one: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/02/the-wrong-way-to-teach-grammar/284014/

Would your DD be excited to drop formal grammar instruction in favor of editing more heavily when she writes? You can still teach rules, etc - like have a printout of when to use semicolons, colons, etc, but she would just refer to resources as she writes, not separately. I still have to google grammar things from time to time, and I have a B.A. in English ? In my opinion, it's more important to write with a good voice, use complete sentences, write clearly, etc. and be able to make corrections, than have all the grammar rules memorized. Everyone Googles when they write ? 

[MerryAtHope]

Have you looked at Fix-It Grammar? That focuses on editing.

[acresoft]

Diagramming the Scriptures by Shirley M. Forsen

or High Way to English Grammar

[ByGrace3]

Another vote for Analytical Grammar. It has been a thorough but not too overwhelming choice here. I splurged on the dvd's and my kids love that they do it independently. Since AG doesn't cover mechanics until Season 3, I have added all the kids into the Memoria Press Grammar Recitation my youngest is using. It's been a great fit so far. 

[kbutton]

I'd consider Easy Grammar or Daily Grams (might be Ultimate series at that age). 

Easy Grammar Plus https://www.easygrammar.com/easy-grammar-plus.html
This is ungraded, but it's a whole grammar curriculum. The Daily Grammar (Ultimate series or otherwise) has daily exercises that are more mechanics-focused, but it does touch on other stuff. I think you can see sample pages for either one. 

Making English syntax explicit helps with a foreign language as does paying attention to how words change from one part of speech to another with endings and such. Beyond that, knowing all about English verbs and pronouns is really super helpful too. 

[Clear Creek]

I used the Get Smart grammar program from Grammar Revolution with my middle child in 7th grade, and she did great with it. It was a complete program with no extra fluff, and the lessons were far, FAR shorter than AG. After she completed it I did not think she needed any further grammar instruction.

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I don't love everything from A Beka, but I love their grammar.  It is very solid and has a lot of review built in.  My son hated the oral component of FLL/WTM too.  He is a get it done type who loves the workbook. All you need is the workbook and tests and maybe the curriculum guide.  The curriculum guide has more than you need, but it has the writing assignments.  If you are doing writing elsewhere and are strong in grammar, you can do without it.  The workbooks have a text box at the top of the page that goes over the concept.  We felt it adequate since I know grammar well and could help with any concept he didn't get.

 

 

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Lexi, I also vote Analytical Grammar. I've used Jr. JAG, AG, and one High School Reinforcement book with my kids. 

It sounds like your dd is at the green book AG level, but since it is a longer text and takes more time to get through, would it make sense to use Jr. JAG as a refresher course?  Jr. JAG only covers the information in the First Season of AG.  Then you could use Jr. JAG Mechanics for the punctuation.  After finishing these, you could re-evaluate to see what to do next. (Your dd would not cover the phrases & clauses of Season Two like this, but the overview she would get would still be worthwhile.)

AG helped my kids solidify their understanding of parts of speech.  Then it directly linked grammar to punctuation. AG is efficient, and once my kids finished a book, most of the information stuck. 

I also agree with others that grammar study is best practiced within the context of writing/editing. When a student can see why a seemingly meaningless subject is relevant- why it has direct application to success in life- that can help reverse some of the apathy. 

You could buy the digital versions of the books to save some money.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Sweet Home Alabama

[HollyDay]

Growing With Grammar was good for youngest dd.  It was straightforward.  Not too much busy work, but enough to get the point across.

BJU is good if you can pick what you want to use and what you don't.  It has quite a bit of seat work.  Sometimes we did all the work, sometimes we didn't depending upon the need

Winston Grammar is a totally different approach.  I required both dds to do a semester of Winston simply because it was a unique approach and helped explain things differently

Fix it Grammar and Editor in Chief are also wonderful.  Again, I required both dds to do these programs as it approaches grammar from a different perspective

[Nayelli]

I have a sixth-grader. Since fifth grade we have used Voyages in English 2018, a secular program with Grammar and Writing. It is my favorite Grammar book, so we will continue with this program. I wish I had tried it much earlier.

There are a heavy student book, a workbook, and a teacher edition per grade.

I bought the student book and the workbook, but now we only utilize the first one. Every chapter uses a science, history, or literature topic for all its exercises. The book has many colorful photographs and some suggested readings. The last Grammar chapter is diagramming. It is an interesting book.

The workbook is easier and much shorter than the student book. It contains one diagramming exercise per day.

There are free resources online, including lesson plans.

My son is bilingual and biliterate in Spanish and English. We started studying Latin last summer.

I hope that you find this information helpful.